[Z3guy]

I was reading about Rhys Millen's historic Pikes Peak 2016 run where he lost the overall win by 4 secs in a full electric car Vs the fastest gas powered car. Sure the Tesla Model S P90D is super fast in a straight line, but vehicle dynamics? not so much. I am planning on selling my Dinan S3R after the summer and was dead set on getting a 991 C4S or GTS. However, when I looking around on Autotrader, I noticed for same money, I could get a BMW I8. So, I decided to check it out.....boy was I impressed. First off, the tech and look is stunning. However the back seat is very useable for my young son, probably better than a 991. What impressed me more than that was how the car handled and drove overall. The torque is killer and it handles really well because the heavy batteries are placed low in the centre tunnel. The car has minimal lean, but the overall grip was relatively low due to really skinny tires, but most aftermarket I8 guys put on 245/285s for some decent grip. After test driving the I8, I can't believe I am saying this, but I think we are less than 10yrs away from electric cars being the standard bearer for performance cars. I feel really sad, because I love gas guzzling high revving NA cars, but I think those days are really numbered. I am curious what RS members think?

[mr00jimbo]

There's limitations on price right now, because batteries are expensive. And then there's the purists...you can't get the exhaust burble, the rev-match downshift, the power building, the sounds or smells with an electric car. I always thought a Tesla Model S looks like an extremely fast Toyota Camry.

But then again, the EPA is going to kill off cars which will need to go smaller engines with electric assist or electric altogether. I'd say 20 years.

Then again, ever since I was a kid, I was told that gasoline would long run out by the time I got my license. Been driving well over 10 years and that still has yet to happen....

[noclue]

There is no substitute.

[Z3guy]

^ i was reading an article about how the mustang p51 was the absolute pinnacle of piston driven fighter warplanes, but was literally obsolete overnight because the jet airplane was invented.

[Timpo]

When electric trains first came out, I'm sure all the steam locomotive guys hated it...because I know many of them still do to this day.

It's the sound, smell, feeling, etc.
Steam locomotives are more fun to ride, whereas electric bullet trains are efficient, fast and boring.

Same can be said about electric powered cars vs petro powered cars.

There's no doubt that electric cars are future of performance cars.
The world's most renown high performance cars are already hybrids.

McLaren P1, Acura NSX, Koenigsegg Regera, LaFerrari, BMW i8, Jaguar CX-75, Porsche 918, etc....they're all hybrids.

Just look at Tesla Model S P90D. It does 0-60mph in 2.6 seconds and 1/4 mile in 10.9 seconds.
It can easily put all the high performance sedans in dust... BMW M5, Audi RS7, Lexus IS-F, Mercedes AMG C63S, Cadillac CTS-V, anything.

The only reason those sedans can't beat Tesla is because they have inefficient petro engine.

[Galactic_Phantom]

Just look at Tesla Model S P90D. It does 0-60mph in 2.6 seconds and 1/4 mile in 10.9 seconds.
It can easily put all the high performance sedans in dust... BMW M5, Audi RS7, Lexus IS-F, Mercedes AMG C63S, Cadillac CTS-V, anything.

....Except on a real race track where there are corners and those cars can smoke the Tesla in the dust

[westopher]

I don't see full electric cars being feasible anytime soon. Canada and U.S. have such boners for oil that they will push back on the infrastructure needed to make the cars reasonable as an only car. Where the fuck are you going to drive a tesla other than kits to horseshoe bay?
It should happen, but it will take a long time I bet.

[prudz]

....Except on a real race track where there are corners and those cars can smoke the Tesla in the dust

They can't really be compared on a real track because the Tesla was not built with racing in mind. I'm sure if they built a suspension for it Tesla could build a pretty badass sports car.

[swfk]

Tesla with and without the adaptive suspension option comes with Bilstein yellow struts from factory. The car carries a lot of speed and is very planted for a car its size. Helps a lot since it has a low center of gravity. Just make sure the steering is set to sport.

[Gucci Mane]

OP, if you have the means i think you should buy something with a V12 for now and enjoy it while you still can. we're still in the early days of electric cars and have plenty of time to adapt them into our lives down the road.

our v8's, v10's and v12's are all eventually going to die off within the next 10-20 years. might as well buy something now while its still semi affordable.

[Galactic_Phantom]

They can't really be compared on a real track because the Tesla was not built with racing in mind. I'm sure if they built a suspension for it Tesla could build a pretty badass sports car.

Oh no doubt if Tesla tries to go for racing goals they can make a sick sports car, but at this stage Tesla is nothing but a luxury A to B sedan weighing at 4800lbs.

I'm just saying how asinine Timfuck's statement is saying how Tesla can smoke sports car when it can't even sustain any aggressive driving past 5 minutes since the battery overheats.

[prudz]

Very true ^

[Timpo]

....Except on a real race track where there are corners and those cars can smoke the Tesla in the dust

? :confused:

I don't know where you got that kind of info, but Tesla Model S is smoking fast around the corner.

Just go on YouTube, Tesla Model S can smoke some of the best handling sedans like BMW M5 and Maserati Ghibli.

Just because Model S is an electric sedan, that doesn't mean Tesla will put shitty suspension.
Tesla is indeed, very well engineered machine.

If you're talking about the size of Tesla Model S, it doesn't matter. Just like GT-R can smoke many supercars around the corner, Tesla does pretty much the same thing with well engineered suspension.

[westopher]

Until the battery dies after 2 laps at mission.

[twitchyzero]

just think of how dependent we have become on batteries the past decade
one of these days we're bound to hit an advancement and petrol vehicles will become a niche

[Nlkko]

Battery will only charge faster, weight less, does not heat up as much and smaller.

Some top performance cars are already hybrids. Only a matter of time until the next tech breakthrough.

The model S ws not built with track performance in mind. Its a perfect daily driver.

[Timpo]

We know petro engines are extremely inefficient.

Internal combustion engines aren't really a motor, it's more like a heat generator.
Most of fuel is used/wasted to generate heat, and only 30+% of that is to generate hp/torque to move a car.

If you factor in everything, in general, petro-powered vehicles can only use 15% of energy to move a car...all the other energy is simply wasted to generate heat or drag/friction losses.

Mazda Skyactive is one of the most advanced petro engine in the world with very high compression and low friction. Mazda say their goal is to waste only 40% of the energy(or use 60% of energy available), but I don't know...with all the electric technology, internal combustion engine will become obsolete.

It's just that amount of torque it creates is not even close to petro engine.

American V8s tend to brag about torque, but it can only generate for very short amount of time. (like 0.1 second?) Whereas electric motor can generate MAX TORQUE ALL THE TIME.

[underscore]

I don't see full electric cars being feasible anytime soon. Canada and U.S. have such boners for oil that they will push back on the infrastructure needed to make the cars reasonable as an only car. Where the fuck are you going to drive a tesla other than kits to horseshoe bay?
It should happen, but it will take a long time I bet.

We're also way too spread out, and in a lot of areas way too cold for parts of the year for it to be feasible. Looking at the Tesla I doubt it could make it from Kelowna to Tsawwassen on one charge with one passenger, so bye bye road trips.

[EndLeSS8]

Electric sports cars and electric sport sedans, I personally can embrace and look forward to the crazy torque


What I cannot embrace, is self-driving cars.

[bcuzracecarz]

https://youtu.be/eT7KKxoAvvk

[Timpo]

Electric sports cars and electric sport sedans, I personally can embrace and look forward to the crazy torque


What I cannot embrace, is self-driving cars.

Self driving cars are a lot safer, more convenient, more efficient, more usable.

I know it's boring and all that, but I'm sure there's a huge market for it.

[Nlkko]

Love self driving car. Give you an option to just sit back if you are tired and would rather sleep and drive when you want. What's not to like?

[EndLeSS8]

Self driving cars are a lot safer, more convenient, more efficient, more usable.

I know it's boring and all that, but I'm sure there's a huge market for it.

Love self driving car. Give you an option to just sit back if you are tired and would rather sleep and drive when you want. What's not to like?

I can understand how this would be good if you are on the road all day (Truck driver) but it will just take the enjoyment out of driving.

[radioman]

It's pretty close to the same but some days when I just didnt want to get up to go to work I used to just be happy knowing I was going to get on my motorcycle for 35 minutes and have fun even in traffic.

Dont think that would be the same with a self driving car.

[Timpo]

I can understand how this would be good if you are on the road all day (Truck driver) but it will just take the enjoyment out of driving.

Just so you know, to the vast majority of population, that are not car/motorcycle enthusiast, driving is simply waste of time.

or transportation/commuting in general, is a waste of time.

Because you're doing nothing productive other than going from point A to point B.

People would rather sit back and relax when you have to go home from work.
Some people may have to spend over 1hr each way for commuting, I'm sure they would rather sit back in your vehicle and watch YouTube or check your email, go on Skype, etc.

Seriously, people would rather do those thing that I just listed ^ than going in your V8 Mustang or Miata/Elise and rev the engine and take corners and stuff.

Young people have lost interest in cars. It's a fact and auto manufactures are well aware of this.

[Timpo]

It's pretty close to the same but some days when I just didnt want to get up to go to work I used to just be happy knowing I was going to get on my motorcycle for 35 minutes and have fun even in traffic.

Dont think that would be the same with a self driving car.

If you value your time, self driving cars make more sense.
Not everybody like driving, or they don't care about driving.
Driving is not a hobby for everyone.

[hud 91gt]

Coming from a world of automation (Aviation). The self driving car is a long ways from being a reality without a lot of deaths. Until every car is self driving, and human factors are taken out of the picture it is not a safe endeavour. There is a reason airplanes are not fully automatic at this point, and even to this day where automation can do so much, failures always show up from time to time and rear their ugly head.

[Timpo]

Coming from a world of automation (Aviation). The self driving car is a long ways from being a reality without a lot of deaths. Until every car is self driving, and human factors are taken out of the picture it is not a safe endeavour. There is a reason airplanes are not fully automatic at this point, and even to this day where automation can do so much, failures always show up from time to time and rear their ugly head.I don't think you realize the difference between auto industry aviation industry.

Aviation industry is extremely hard to innovate due to streict rules and multi million $ fee to approve any new technology.

Even if you wanna approve fuel injection, multi million $ fee right there.

The only way to get away with that is to label your aircraft as EXPERIMENTAL and this is why many aircrafts come with carburetor, magnitoes, etc.

Any FAA or ICAO regulated aircrafts don't even bother to innovate unless there's an extreme demand for it.

[underscore]

Coming from a world of automation (Aviation). The self driving car is a long ways from being a reality without a lot of deaths. Until every car is self driving, and human factors are taken out of the picture it is not a safe endeavour.

Self driving cars are going to be a nightmare, simply because when something does go wrong the person inside will lack the experience to do anything about it.

[Timpo]

Self driving cars are going to be a nightmare, simply because when something does go wrong the person inside will lack the experience to do anything about it.

Google and Apple (I think?) have proven that self driving vehicles will be decreasing accidets dramatically. It's just a matter of time.

[hud 91gt]

I don't think you realize the difference between auto industry aviation industry.

Aviation industry is extremely hard to innovate due to streict rules and multi million $ fee to approve any new technology.



Timpo, in fact I do have a fairly good idea between the two industries.

I'm not saying Mr. Musk, or Mr. Google are not able to get their technologies into the real world. What I stated, is it will not happen without many deaths.

Until computers can read gestures, make eye contact or other human interactions it is a disaster waiting to happen. You may not realize it, but the amount of human interaction you have with other drivers is huge.

Automation can not read this. If all cars were automated, and used a system to communicate with other cars (Like some Airplanes), it would be very possible to have this technology and be very successful. Until you take out the human factors out of the equation you will have issues.

This isn't even getting into scenarios where automation fails and the human has to take over. History has show, even in instances where individuals with good motor skills, and experience can lose their ability to properly handle an airplane after years of automation (Take a look at Malaysian flight into SFO a couple years ago). Never mind new drivers who learned to drive a self driving vehicle and all of a sudden need to take over without ever having touched the wheel of any vehicle.

All i'm saying is it has a long way to go before it will be truly safe.

[Manic!]

It's not just Musk and Google. it's Mercedes, BMW, GM, Nissan and other car manufactures.

Uber has signed a 10 billion dollar contract with Mercedes to provide self driving cars.
BMW says it will have self driving tech in some of it's cars by 2021
GM is working with Uber competitor Lyft and has invested 500 million
Nissan says they will have 10 cars with significant autonomous functionality by 2020

Imagine if you have a 10 hour drive. Instead of waking up early in the morning to go you leave at night, sleep in the car and arrive in the morning. I could see a big increase in RV sales and rentals. Talking road trips will never be the same.

[hud 91gt]

And until all cars on the road are self driving, or at least have direct interaction between the two (Self driving, and non self driving) stating intent, or even just other drivers input it will be up to a computer to make a humans decision.

If federal regulations all of a sudden state no manual driven cars allowed on the road, this would be a different story.

I sure as hell hope they've used the aviation industry as research. As the aviation industry hasn't exactly mastered the science of coping computers with human interaction.

Once it is in place and error free, I agree. It will be brilliant. Until that point, i'll keep my hands on the wheel.

[Timpo]

Timpo, in fact I do have a fairly good idea between the two industries.

I'm not saying Mr. Musk, or Mr. Google are not able to get their technologies into the real world. What I stated, is it will not happen without many deaths.

Until computers can read gestures, make eye contact or other human interactions it is a disaster waiting to happen. You may not realize it, but the amount of human interaction you have with other drivers is huge.

Automation can not read this. If all cars were automated, and used a system to communicate with other cars (Like some Airplanes), it would be very possible to have this technology and be very successful. Until you take out the human factors out of the equation you will have issues.

This isn't even getting into scenarios where automation fails and the human has to take over. History has show, even in instances where individuals with good motor skills, and experience can lose their ability to properly handle an airplane after years of automation (Take a look at Malaysian flight into SFO a couple years ago). Never mind new drivers who learned to drive a self driving vehicle and all of a sudden need to take over without ever having touched the wheel of any vehicle.

All i'm saying is it has a long way to go before it will be truly safe.

Why are you comparing aviation and auto industry at first place?

Eye contact for what? other drivers on cell phone? jaywalkers that aren't even paying attention? Science has proven that those things can be detected by sensor, quite frankly, faster than humans can react.

If something fails, self driving cars will stop and pull over immediately.
This technology has been proven by Toyota(and probably other manufactures) more than a decade ago. It catches sleeping and driving, when the driver gets drowsy, it will safely pull over.

On the other hand, aircraft will have to prepare for emergency landing, transponder code to emergency, mayday calls, passenger briefing, finding a spot to land, calculate landing distance, gliding distance, landing angle, wind speed, gusting direction, etc.

It's a totally different game in the sky compare to the road.

[Timpo]

And until all cars on the road are self driving, or at least have direct interaction between the two (Self driving, and non self driving) stating intent, or even just other drivers input it will be up to a computer to make a humans decision.

If federal regulations all of a sudden state no manual driven cars allowed on the road, this would be a different story.

I sure as hell hope they've used the aviation industry as research. As the aviation industry hasn't exactly mastered the science of coping computers with human interaction.

Once it is in place and error free, I agree. It will be brilliant. Until that point, i'll keep my hands on the wheel.

Perfection does not exist, nothing is 100%.

However the self driving vehicles are already much safer than humans.

They have tested multi million miles already, and pulled the stats how many accidents humans have per how many miles travelled, so far I think it's something like 150 times safer than human driving.
(How many accidents you get into every how many miles travelled)

[hud 91gt]

Edit: you know what. Timpo, your right.

The technology is great, and there won't be any issues dealing with human interaction on the road.

[optiblue]

The future is electric cars wither self driving or not. The reason of gas guzzlers is over. We'll start seeing more and more sporty electric cars as well as larger passenger class versions like bosses. Eventually, roads will become a power grid where wireless charging of the EV is possible (currently being experimented on the other side of the globe using existing tech) As sad as it is, never mind manuals, all gasoline related related parts will be gone once the switch is flipped. You'll probably have to drive miles to that one last gas station to fill up your vehicle when that day comes.

I don't even drive my Evo much anymore and it comes out only a few times a year. My next car will be fully electric but it'll be a suv class. Waiting for the affordable awd/4x4 suv era :)

[Timpo]

Edit: you know what. Timpo, your right.

The technology is great, and there won't be any issues dealing with human interaction on the road.

I don't know why you're so concerned about human transaction. I know what you mean, but in the end, self driving cars are safer.

As I said, nothing is 100% and I'm sure there are flaws just like anything else.

But one solid fact is that it's whole a lot safer than letting humans drive.

[Manic!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT7KKxoAvvk

[Nlkko]

People are thinking self-driving = no fun. This might be true but nobody knows what it will be like in the future. And it will be a long time before regulations allowing full self-driving cars.

What you can expect in the near future though are more assisted-driving cars. Like Tesla's. When you don't want (for example, tired), you don't have to pay as much attention, the car will autopilot fairly safely. When you want to enjoy driving, then you can step on it. That's a luxury. This is why it will great.