[Hondaracer]

I'm gonna share some stories here that have been relayed from a friend who works for the VSB, i'm going to try and stay relatively vague as to not directly incriminate them lol..

however, some of the shit I hear it's absolutely fucking disgusting to think this organization is constantly in the media begging for money, handouts, help, then refusing to make cuts and close schools when they are so blatantly wasting the tax payer and government funds provided to them.

Before i get into the individual stories regarding the waste caused by all levels of this organization, i will describe an average day for this worker (who, has worked in numerous different areas of the VSB)

Show up at the yard, shift starts at 7:25 as opposed to 7:30 to bank that extra 5 mintues per day in order to make up for the "flex days" that the teachers take, pro-d days, stats, etc.

They then get together as crews and discuss work for the day, take out tools, etc. this can run anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours. Almost never does a truck leave the yard prior to 9AM.

For people who cut the grass and do general clean up around the schools, they drive their own vehicles to the schools they are going to cut, getting big time $$$ for milage, they then wait at the school until the truck which delivers the lawn mower shows up, this can be between 30 minutes and 3 hours, of waiting for the equipment to do your job.

Once you've completed that school, you must phone and get the equipment picked up, however, you cannot leave the equipment alone, so you pack up, and wait for the same guy, or another guy with the appropriate truck to pick up said lawn mower, if there is enough time left in the day, maybe you will get to another school, but probably not.

If there is not time left in the day to cut another school, the equipment will be picked up, brought back to the yard, and your only duty is to show up at the yard at the end of the day to fill out a time card and leave. Other than that people are driving around, doing errands, taking 3 hour lunches, reading books at spanish banks, etc. This is every day for these people.

So onto the next situation..

crew is building a small bike rack, they build the bike rack, upon completion a teacher who had ordered it be built comes out and says it is wrong and must be removed. spend an additional day removing rack, and then having to bring in an entire dump truck of good material to lay down below the rack as requested by the teacher.

a back hoe is brought in, dump truck dumps an entire load of good, pricey, material to underlay the rack with. the crew and backhoe end up using less than 1/4 of the total load brought from the Vancouver works yard for their project. It is recommended that they use the backhoe to load a dump truck back up and return the remaining material to the yard, after all it is an asset.

after this recommendation, the person in charge outright refuses that and simply gets the crew to "spread" the remaining material out onto the dirt/field, 3/4 of a dump truck of material unused, is simply spread out and wasted.

Example 3:

The VSB uses tones of shipping containers or "sea cans" to store equipment etc. Sea cans are always in demand from various industries, however, of course when one becomes old and worn, a public organization like the VSB has no interested in keeping around old, worn down goods.

If your average person had a sea can in their back yard, and they phoned a scrap removal company, the scrapping company would take the can away for free, perhaps even pay you, it's shitty metal but theres ALOT of it in a sea can.

The VSB deals with their old unwanted sea cans in a slightly different manner.. they take it upon themselves to dispose of the cans..

over 2 days, FIVE people, and a backhoe dismantle 1 sea can..

5 peoples wages + a back hoe/operator. they cut holes, cut peices off, the back hoe turns the sea can, cut come more off it.

somthing they could dipose of or get rid of for free, takes 6 peoples wages two days to do..

Example 4:

some employees have access to the VSB charge accounts, they primarily use acklands Grainger as their tool supplier (red flags anyone?)

guy goes in, needs some large, over sized, crescent wrenches, 5 of them in different sizes.

orders them, bill comes to sign, it's approx $650 for the 5 wrenches.. ok.. they are big specialty wrenches, maybe thats the normal price.

Guy goes to a different acklands grainger two days later with the same part numbers for a quote as a private person, no account pricing, no discount.

The same 5 wrenches for a guy walking in off the street were $360..

Honestly, shit like this probably goes down in most public sectors. However, you almost never see "city of burnaby" "city of new west" etc. in the media begging for funds and bail outs.

Somthing to think about if there are ever referendums and votes on school closures when you see how money is being spent within the VSB.

[minoru_tanaka]

Anyone else read this and went straight to the VSB site to check for job openings?

[murd0c]

sounds like a typical school board or city job to me

[dat_steve]

this makes my blood boil lol the worst part is that most of those guilty of this type of work ethic almost feel entitled to it. fuck off man, i wish i could bank my morning shits too.

[westopher]

No different than the City of Vancouver road crew with one guy shovelling, 6 guys watching, 3 smoking flag girls (not smoking hot, smoking fucking cigarettes) twirling their signs, and 2 guys on the curb eating sandwiches.
Its not a problem with the school board, its a problem with the allocation of tax money and little to no accountability in the public sector.

[Hondaracer]

sounds like a typical school board or city job to me

The difference is, like I said in the post, almost none of the other local public sector are in the media/public constantly begging for funds, nor do the other groups have such incompetent management.

[westopher]

Maybe its a deeper rooted problem that a road crew has the money to pull that fucking bullshit and schools don't?

[320icar]

I would blow my brains out in a job like that. I earn my keep by the sweat on my brow

[Traum]

The OP needs to contact a TV crew of some sort and arrange for some investigative journalism. Getting this stuff exposed and generating public backlash is the only way to stop this bullshxt.

[tonyzoomzoom]

Incompetent management and minimal accountability always breed this kind of shit. Can't blame the workers.

[Hondaracer]

Your average worker yea, the middle management though, I think they have enough control to effectively make change yet most are so stuck in their ways they would rather go in the opposite direction.

Oh and here's another gooder I forgot about

So they are working in south Van somewhere, probably around this time of year. Buddy is sitting in his car waiting on tools/equipment as usual when he sees a storm drain backing up. The water has become so backed up that it's encroaching on a guys property, if it continues to collect, my friend figured it would soon be going into said guys garage, and maybe worse.

So he gets out of his car and finds a peice of rebar and walks through the puddle and begins trying to unplug the storm drain

Shortly after he begins his charge hand shows up and sees what he is doing.

The charge hand fucking SNAPS on him, asking him what the fuck are you doing? Buddy says this water is going to he running into this garage if it's not taken care of.

Charge hand says he doesn't give a fuck about the water and your job is in jeopardy if you are "stealing work from others" ...

[XplicitLuder]

No different than the City of Vancouver road crew with one guy shovelling, 6 guys watching, 3 smoking flag girls (not smoking hot, smoking fucking cigarettes) twirling their signs, and 2 guys on the curb eating sandwiches.
Its not a problem with the school board, its a problem with the allocation of tax money and little to no accountability in the public sector.

youre missing out on the girls who are actually hot Kappa maybe drive somewhere else other than slurrey. jkjk :P

[Recon604]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/RMI0/union-workers/image.jpg

[quasi]

One of the major problems is the way the money is allocated, ie: if you don't spend your budget it's going to get cut. Until they change the way budgets are derived and funds are allocated things will remain the same.

[meme405]

Our government is just fiscally irresponsible, as many are. They simply don't care to make an effort to ensure tax payers are getting the most for their dollars spent. The money flows into their departments free and clear every year, they don't have to work to earn that money, they just spend it willy nilly.

Whereas me as a business since I have to actually work to earn every penny for my business before I can spend anything, I am much more careful about how I spend.

Government is setup in such a way that it buttfucks you. Get used to it, or go join them, become a civil servant. That's what most people do. If you can't beat em join em.

Posted in another thread, relating to ICBC, however it's the same issue when dealing with anything relating to the government. When you don't have to work to earn your money, you go complacent with the managing and handling of it, and when you realize there are absolutely no repercussions and you can just go out and beg for more money, then you become reckless and possibly even corrupt with the usage.

EDIT:

Charge hand says he doesn't give a fuck about the water and your job is in jeopardy if you are "stealing work from others" ...

This is a union problem, Unions usually have specific task lists for each position, doing tasks from other workers task lists is a huge deal within unions. Just another reason unions are useless, and set up to just benefit the lazy and incompetent.

[Great68]

More like a PUBLIC UNION problem.

I work in the private industry, my labour force is unionized but they act nothing like union employees in the public system. If they did, then we wouldn't be in business and they would all be without jobs.

[mikemhg]

School Board is one of our clients. Let's not even talk about the abuse of the long term disability plan by some district employees, or as we call it "early retirement". It's quite mindblowing if you see the waste behind the scenes.

VSB is definitely having issues right now in terms of budget, their 4 of their trustees have gone on stress leave (disability of course). So that tells you what's going on right now.

[westopher]

youre missing out on the girls who are actually hot Kappa maybe drive somewhere else other than slurrey. jkjk :P

I haven't been to Surrey in 3 years.

[Eff-1]

Yeah, I see some faults with management, but reading that whole thing leads me to believe the unionized employees are more the ones forcing the waste. Stuff like this:

shift starts at 7:25 as opposed to 7:30 to bank that extra 5 mintues per day in order to make up for the "flex days" that the teachers take, pro-d days, stats, etc.


And this

other than that people are driving around, doing errands, taking 3 hour lunches, reading books at spanish banks, etc.

Or this

somthing they could dipose of or get rid of for free, takes 6 peoples wages two days to do..

And this

Charge hand says he doesn't give a fuck about the water and your job is in jeopardy if you are "stealing work from others" ...

Using that first example, if your workers feel it's necessary to bank FIVE minutes, then face it, your whole system/culture is messed up, and both the management and the union are to blame for that.

Personally I don't mind the idea of unions, but the fact they are often SO incredibly resistant to change and being adaptable is why I can't stand them.

[freakshow]

I hate unions with a passion. They may have served a purpose 100 years ago, but the only thing they do now is stifle productivity and innovation. Imagine if the tech industry was unionized, we'd still have rotary phones. Government unions are absolutely criminal and are purely a waste of tax-payer dollars.

[flagella]

This is bound to happen when you are an organization that simply receives funding from taxpayers money. I'm pretty sure inefficiencies like this exist across most public sector jobs (I hear way too many stories). People don't have the incentive to work hard because you don't go out of business from lack of innovation and hard work.

Auditors are probably incompetent as well to catch anything.

[DragonChi]

Government jobs. Full of Cush~.

[Adorkami]

System won't change. The union will always push for giving the employees as much as possible even if it affects performance, and the managers of those members have their hands tied. If management tried to force real changes that would increase productivity they would just strike. Maybe someday it will be privatized and a lot cheaper.

[RRxtar]

public service unions.




brb going on strike for more money and better working conditions

[tiger_handheld]

I hate wasting money, but at the end of the day, it's about the budget in public sector.

Example:

The higher level government or organization will fund the school board say 5 million based on an operating budget.

At year end, the bean counters show up and make sure said entity has spent 5mil+ -- ie going over budget.

The next year said entity requests 6mil because last year they asked for 5mil spent 5.5mil so they need 5.5mil + inflation this year.

Faliure to spend more than budget will mean less money next year.

This friends is public sector in a nutshell. It's not about the union, it's not about wasting materials. its about making sure the society will exist in the coming year at the same level as the year before. Inefficiency is rewarded in public sector - hell its encouraged. The more over budget you go, the more "needed" your organization seems and thats what all government org's want - to be needed.

[Ch28]

Unions only benefit the lazy and incompetent people. There's a reason why public road work usually takes several weeks to complete when it could've easily been done in a fraction of the time. The fact that there are usually 6-10 people "working" but only 1 or 2 of them doing any actual work should tell you the problem itself.

[noclue]

I'm not a tradie or an union member but anything associated with the government is prime for abuse.

For example:
Doctors buy the most expensive iPad Pro with applecare + accessories and it's a "medical tool" thus reimbursable.
Doctors write medical notes that they can only fly business class due to a medical condition
lots of government management hires consultants at sky high rates cause they are either incompetent or they need someone to blame if things go wrong.

etc

[Lomac]

More like a PUBLIC UNION problem.

I work in the private industry, my labour force is unionized but they act nothing like union employees in the public system. If they did, then we wouldn't be in business and they would all be without jobs.

This is a union problem, Unions usually have specific task lists for each position, doing tasks from other workers task lists is a huge deal within unions. Just another reason unions are useless, and set up to just benefit the lazy and incompetent.

It's not just a public union thing. It's been years since I've last worked in the film/tv industry so things may have changed since then, but it used to have a similar issue. As a camera operator, I couldn't have my camera set up until the grips finished laying down the track or setting up a tracking rig. And if they were running behind we couldn't give them a hand, so we'd just end up standing around having a smoke and getting paid big bucks to do shit all. Same story for the gaffers, best boys, set dressers, and so forth. If we ever offered a hand to help, we would have our heads ripped off by our department heads or a production manager. Many a days worth of shooting were put into deep OT because of a slow department crew keeping us running behind.

[Eff-1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFevxqmg92s

[Spoon]

I'm not a tradie or an union member but anything associated with the government is prime for abuse.

For example:
Doctors buy the most expensive iPad Pro with applecare + accessories and it's a "medical tool" thus reimbursable.
Doctors write medical notes that they can only fly business class due to a medical condition
lots of government management hires consultants at sky high rates cause they are either incompetent or they need someone to blame if things go wrong.

etc

Yeah, cause nobody here's ever taken advantage of a system loophole here and there before. :rukidding:

[bluejays]

Worked construction at school board for years (won't say which). The accountability is just not there, money is tossed around like it's nothing. 100's of thousands spent on equipment that isn't needed just because they need to use up the budget they're given.

My last year working there my foreman bought 300 zap straps for $500 from Acklands Granger. The only reason why companies like Acklands have contracts with the school boards is because they provide insane under the table kickbacks to the foremen and superintendents

[HKSR]

I'm actually in upper management in another school district in the Province, and believe me when I say these issues stem from a combination of underfunding and public union issues. However, if I were to pick one, I'd say public unions are the biggest issue here. I'll get into the issue of underfunding another time.

Unions protect the weak. Those examples mentioned above are the 'bad' apples. What can we, as management do about it? Not much. If and when we try to implement change, there is heavy resistance from the unions resulting in grievances and arbitration hearings. This in turn raises legal costs, which results in decreased funds available for staffing and classrooms, which in turn leads to layoffs. The unions then turn around and publicly denounce the District and management for laying off workers and carrying deficits. The general public then sees the management group as the enemy.

This is the same in the majority of Districts in the Province. Generally, 90% - 92% of an annual budget goes to salaries and benefits. Union members (teachers and support staff -- CUPE) make up 95% to 97% of the staffing costs. The public are then informed to go blame management for all the money they make and are sapping the system of funds. In reality, I know how much I make relative to my peers in other sectors -- I get paid about 20-25% less than what my peers make. The union members are the ones making much higher than their peers in other sectors.

Custodians are an example. In the school districts, they make anywhere from $23 - $27/hr depending on the District. How much do you think they'd make in the private sector?

Anyways, just some info for those that are interested in how it works from the inside.

Oh, and for clarity, it is upper management members that have taken medical leaves from the VSB, not trustees. I know the upper management, and I know why they chose to take medical leaves. Believe it or not, they have been verbally and physically threatened on more than one occasion during this process. It has become an issue of safety that has lead most of them to take the time to get out of the situation for the time being.

If I could divulge more than I already have, you'd all be shocked with the challenges school districts are facing on a daily basis.

[Traum]

^^ And this is why we need some sort of exposé on TV to turn it into a big deal. The thing you need to do is to create public pressure so that heat gets laid on the bad apples, and then when they get fired, or when change takes place, there is public support to enact the changes.

[meme405]

I'm actually in upper management in another school district in the Province, and believe me when I say these issues stem from a combination of underfunding and public union issues. However, if I were to pick one, I'd say public unions are the biggest issue here. I'll get into the issue of underfunding another time.

Unions protect the weak. Those examples mentioned above are the 'bad' apples. What can we, as management do about it? Not much. If and when we try to implement change, there is heavy resistance from the unions resulting in grievances and arbitration hearings. This in turn raises legal costs, which results in decreased funds available for staffing and classrooms, which in turn leads to layoffs. The unions then turn around and publicly denounce the District and management for laying off workers and carrying deficits. The general public then sees the management group as the enemy.

This is the same in the majority of Districts in the Province. Generally, 90% - 92% of an annual budget goes to salaries and benefits. Union members (teachers and support staff -- CUPE) make up 95% to 97% of the staffing costs. The public are then informed to go blame management for all the money they make and are sapping the system of funds. In reality, I know how much I make relative to my peers in other sectors -- I get paid about 20-25% less than what my peers make. The union members are the ones making much higher than their peers in other sectors.

Custodians are an example. In the school districts, they make anywhere from $23 - $27/hr depending on the District. How much do you think they'd make in the private sector?

Anyways, just some info for those that are interested in how it works from the inside.

Oh, and for clarity, it is upper management members that have taken medical leaves from the VSB, not trustees. I know the upper management, and I know why they chose to take medical leaves. Believe it or not, they have been verbally and physically threatened on more than one occasion during this process. It has become an issue of safety that has lead most of them to take the time to get out of the situation for the time being.

If I could divulge more than I already have, you'd all be shocked with the challenges school districts are facing on a daily basis.

It's not "underfunding" if they are just wasting the money they are getting irresponsibly. Which from all the examples in this thread before yours they absolutely are. You aren't underfunded if you waste the money you do need, and then require more.

Also even if you are underfunded, even one story like the above being true and there is very few people who would willingly want to give more money to any department. Just like Translink has, departments start to lose their credibility with the public when they are found to be wasting money, and then the problem only compounds from there.

Again anything to do with the public sector needs to be very transparent, it's not like a private company where you can hide behind your walls. The private sector is here to make money, and stimulate and economy. The public sector only saps money, they do this in the hopes that the government provides certain services for the good of the people. If and when the public sector starts to fail or become too much of a burden, then there is a serious problem.

This discussion is going to go far beyond the issues of the VSB, but I'll give it a shot anyway:

----------------------------


About 20% of people in BC are employed in the public sector. This means that 1 in 5 people are a burden on the economy rather than an assistant.

If you disagree with the statement above I highly suggest you go and learn the difference between mixed economies and free markets. There is a great book by Adam Smith called the "wealth of nations" which outlines all of this very well. Failing that here is a website which explains some of it: Mixed economy | Economics Help (http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glossary/mixed-economy/)

The reason this percentage is so important is because those 4 people that aren't employed by the public sector need to make enough money between them to support themselves as well as pay enough taxes in order to support the government so that the 5th person can be paid.

Some people will point out that the 5th person also pays taxes, if you don't understand why this is a stupid thing to point out, just stop reading here because you really don't understand how this shit works.

In the collapse of a system (the two most notable I will rely on for information will be Greece and Detroit), the first indicators of a problem will come from the 4 people. If these people struggle, or waiver, the 5th person could go on not being impacted for quite awhile, but the fact that the 5th person isn't yet impacted doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

Just because you can't see your tooth rotting from the top, doesn't mean you don't have a huge cavity.

Often times dips and peaks in micro or macro economies cause instability which affects private sectors, the public sector is more or less immune from these fluctuations. The real issue arises when there is a valley in any economy. During that depressed period in any economy people could lose their jobs in the private sector, profits of companies get slashed, and in turn spending is slashed, etc. The bottom line is that maybe we say 1 of those private sector employees lose their job.

Well immediately you can see there is a problem, because now there is only 3 private sector employees supporting that 1 public sector worker.

I'm sure most of you can see where I am going with this, the only point I am making is that the balance of public to private is a very crucial one, and the depression of private industry means serious problems in the public sector.

Now for the crux of the problem, the government SUCKS at dealing with reductions. The government sucks at reduction for a number of reasons, Lack of profit incentive, and bureaucracy being the main couple:

Profit Incentive - Private firms have a profit incentive to cut costs and develop products demanded by consumers. In the government sector this profit motive is often absent. Therefore government bodies have a greater tendency to be overstaffed and inefficient.

Bureaucracy - For political reasons, it is sometimes more difficult to get rid of surplus workers in the public sector than private sector. Private businessmen don’t have to worry about political popularity and so are more willing to make people redundant if it helps efficiency. The public sector on the other hand are more likely to employ surplus workers in unproductive jobs.

Now I've gone a little off track to make sure basics are understood before I delve too deep into this, but essentially somewhere a long the way the notion that the government is here for public good seems to have slipped everyone's mind. Now straying away from all the generalities and getting back to us here in BC. There was an interesting report (it's a little dated now, but still applicable), the report was generated by the fraser institute. You can see it here:

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/comparing-government-and-private-sector-compensation-in-british-columbia.pdf

The report in general looks at comparing the private to the public sector in terms of wages and compensation. I'll skip all the nitty gritty, which if you are so inclined go read the report yourself, but in general they found:

The empirical analysis of wage data and a survey of available non-wage benefit data for British Columbia indicate that government workers in the province enjoy both higher wages and likely higher non-wage benefits than their private sector counterparts.

They found that in general government workers get paid higher wages, enjoy better pension plans, retire earlier, enjoy better job security, and take more days off in the year.

Why is this all note worthy? Because given all the above information, and given the option of working for private or public where would you go? Absolutely you would go public, there is nobody in their right mind who given actual data that proves public sector work is better paid and more secure, who would decide to work in the private sector.

BUT Given what we learned about the above delicate equilibrium between public and private sectors, there is a huge problem, because not everyone can just go work for the government, otherwise our economy would literally just flatline. Government needs the money in to be able to do their magical money out part.

There is actually a title to this phenomenon, it's called "Crowding out", basically it's the notion that any increases in public sector means a reduction in the available resources for the private sector (resources in this case being people AKA workforce).

The only thing which can correct "Crowding out", and this isn't an opinion this is proven over and over, is a reduction in spending by the government. Basically the government lowers their wages, until the equilibrium point is once again reached. This is something which hasn't happened in large scale in BC (Or canada) since before many of us were alive. Because short term it causes problems; however, long term it results in lower taxes and much higher private sector investment.

This may seem confusing, but you need to understand how much better the private sector is at being efficient. Once you come to terms with that, you realize that the private sector is where the jobs need to be, and the public sector needs to be maintained at the minimum level to provide an adequate level of the services and goods we expect.

Now the issue, and where people can start to disagree with me is here: Unions are the problem.

Unions create bloating in public sector job spaces, work that would have taken 1 person, now takes 2 (or more). They also create an environment where reductions like what the government needs to do, are impossible. This can be for legal and bureaucratic reasons. Legal reasons being the union has a contract that the government has to fulfill, and bureaucratic being that when the contract is up for negotiation, the government doesn't want to be made to look bad so they normally get butt fucked.

One final note, there is a distinct difference in what the government needs to do during a booming economy and during a recession. During a boom any reductions by the government in terms of taxes or jobs are normally swallowed up by the private sector. This is normally offset by the fact that in a boom people are spending and generating much more and therefore the government should still be able to maintain a level. The problem here is that governments get greedy, and if they don't make the necessary cuts, hamper the private sector and we don't see the boom we are supposed to. This is when countries like China all of a sudden start to scream past us economy wise and steal all the money we should have made. (Then they come here and butt fuck you by snapping up all the houses, but that's another issue entirely).

On the other side of the coin during a prolonged recession the government often needs to increase spending and intervention because the need for them to create jobs is much more immediate. There is a number of very complicated reasons why this spending and borrowing isn't a problem, the easiest to explain is because in general, during a recession, people usually save much more money this fall in spending is basically extra capacity for the government to use.

If this last part doesn't make sense, don't worry, but what you need to know is that during a boom government intervention causes "crowding out".

And now it's later than I would have hoped and I refuse to proof read this since I have other work I need to do. So I hope this makes some level of sense.

[MarkyMark]

It's not just a public union thing. It's been years since I've last worked in the film/tv industry so things may have changed since then, but it used to have a similar issue. As a camera operator, I couldn't have my camera set up until the grips finished laying down the track or setting up a tracking rig. And if they were running behind we couldn't give them a hand, so we'd just end up standing around having a smoke and getting paid big bucks to do shit all. Same story for the gaffers, best boys, set dressers, and so forth. If we ever offered a hand to help, we would have our heads ripped off by our department heads or a production manager. Many a days worth of shooting were put into deep OT because of a slow department crew keeping us running behind.

Sounds like shitty management. I've worked in a private sector union where the success of the company determined whether or not you have a job and the mentality is a lot different. There sure as hell isn't 5 people standing around having a smoke while waiting for others to purposely slow things down for OT. Management was all over that shit. If you had to wait for something to be fixed then they made sure you were busy doing something else until it got done.

Many people were fired due to insubordination. Yeah the union would fight it but generally the management had such a case against the guy by then that the union would lose in arbitration.

In the public sector it seems like all you have to do is show up and you'll have a job for life. It doesn't matter how good of a job you do because the taxpayers will always be paying your salary. I can definitely see why people try to milk that for all it's worth.

[buhdeh]

Ah, life in the public sector.

I worked for federal government (office "analyst" type job) and it was crazy how lazy and incompetent people were. Even the people who worked there told me to find a private sector job and come back to government when I was ready to retire. I saw so much crap like people taking hour long coffee breaks, people taking personal calls at work for hours on end (mostly older people who actually do still use the phone for communication!), people telling me they worked until 2:00 AM to create a PowerPoint deck which was a copy and paste job from a report, how many sick days people took, etc.

I remember a pretty smart private sector engineer being hired for a manager position there who basically gave up on trying to improve anything because of how ingrained the public sector culture was.

And yes, I also remember having to use up a budget for no reason. We would just start a project for the sake of using up the budget even though there was no business case/need for it.

Personally, I would never go back to government unless I lose all ambition in life or get to my 50s and just want to hang out with other old people.

[Great68]

Sounds like shitty management. I've worked in a private sector union where the success of the company determined whether or not you have a job and the mentality is a lot different. There sure as hell isn't 5 people standing around having a smoke while waiting for others to purposely slow things down for OT. Management was all over that shit. If you had to wait for something to be fixed then they made sure you were busy doing something else until it got done.


Yeah I know for a fact that many of my guys are putting in more hours than they're charging on their timecards. (IE many will spend time at home reviewing plans, figuring things out, making up their schedules etc)

They understand this just comes with the territory with the type of work they do. On the other hand, they're paid significantly more than their non-union counterparts, and have a way better benefits package to boot.

In my 9 years with the company, I've never seen a Union "stop work" order, not even the slightest whiff of one, ever.

[MG1]

It all boils down to work ethics.

If you have poor work ethics, chances are, you probably have little to no integrity when it comes to everything else in life.

Part of the reason why our society is filled with losers with attitude. People who think of only themselves and have that, "Fuck everybody else," attitude.

I was taught from day one to work hard and work honestly. I've passed that on to my children. Hopefully, when they have kids they'll do the same.

Doesn't matter where you go, you see a few good workers out there. The ones who care. They're the ones who love their job and want to make a positive difference. I've gone out of my way to tell them they're doing a good job. Doesn't matter if they're working at a fast food joint or behind the desk at an office. There aren't too many of the good ones around, but when I see one, I'll let 'em know.

I've worked at many union jobs and everytime I saw a slacker, I worked harder. When I got home, I was dead tired, but felt really good about myself. It rubbed off on others, but it also got me ridiculed - a lot. Those losers went to bars, got wasted, and spent what they earned. They had marital problems and all kinds of other issues. And, they did nothing but complain, complain, complain.

There's nothing like working hard.............. then when you retire, you can slack off all you want and waste your time on forums like RS, Gulolololololol.

[jasonturbo]

Its not a problem with the school board, its a problem with the allocation of tax money and little to no accountability in the public sector.

Bingo, there is no concept of performance measurement in the public sector like there is in private business.

[MG1]

Yeah I know for a fact that many of my guys are putting in more hours than they're charging on their timecards. (IE many will spend time at home reviewing plans, figuring things out, making up their schedules etc)

They understand this just comes with the territory with the type of work they do. On the other hand, they're paid significantly more than their non-union counterparts, and have a way better benefits package to boot.

In my 9 years with the company, I've never seen a Union "stop work" order, not even the slightest whiff of one, ever.

Good to hear positive stuff for a change. Good environment, I gather.

When workers get it, its great. A successful company starts with great workers and of course, awesome management.

[HKSR]

Bingo, there is no concept of performance measurement in the public sector like there is in private business.

Tell me about it. We've been implementing a performance measurement / growth plan review process with our support staff this past year, and you wouldn't believe the backlash and resistance we are receiving. The legal costs are racking up, but we're sticking to the plan. Short term pain for long term gain.

I'm not even sure why I've stuck it out to get to where I am today in the public sector, but I guess I want to make a difference ... at least in our District. I'd make a LOT more money if I went back to the private sector, that's for sure.

[Traum]

I've worked in both the public and private sector in the past, and my experience follows more along the lines of MG1 -- there are hard and honest workers giving all they've got in the public / unionized sectors, and there are lazy spineless bastards that somehow managed to survive (or even get into higher management positions) in the public sector that always make me wonder how I got there. It all depends on the work place and the people.

But generally speaking, I see a bigger union entitlement issue in a blue collar type of unionized environment. That is not to say a similar entitlement mentality doesn't exist in a white collar type of unionized environment thought. (I've worked in both.)

In my current field (IT), I think a public, unionized environment is far better than a similar line of work in the private, non-unionized sector. There is a far better work-life balance in the public, unionized environment, and for the most part, people don't abuse the system and privileges. I have a couple of acquaintances working in the same field as I do, and those guys just get worked to death. One of them, in particular, is supposed to be at least a good 4 or 5 years younger than I am (if not more), and he looked great (and looked his age) when he first started working. Over the years as I saw him, he looks continually more tired and worn out, and nowadays, I'd say he probably looks more out of shape and older than I do. He is raking in some solid dough, but man... that work-life balance is so out of whack that I feel really bad for him.

[CivicBlues]

:ifyouknow: at all the people bragging about their work ethic while posting on RS during business hours. Retirees notwithstanding.


Edit: Now that I'm on lunch I can elaborate more :smug:

Let me preface this by saying I've worked in many jobs both quasi-Public (with a Union) and Private (with and without a union). I currently work in the private sector without a Union. The only real difference I can attest to? I like not having union dues deducted off my paycheque. There's dog fuckers in every job but I believe there's a majority of hardworking people in any profession and company. You people that bitch endlessly about public sector unions, or unions in general - really need to get over yourselves.

Who's to say that if you landed your first job out of school at say, the BC gov't, that you wouldn't be as entitled and "lazy" as those you despise so much. And by that I mean you are a total product of your environment and experiences. There's always going to be a guy that thinks he's working harder than everyone else in the company. I believe that's an inefficiency caused by ineffective management and poor corporate culture. Fact of the matter is, with as much waste there is in the public sector, BC is still efficiently run and solvent. Sure could taxes be lower? Of course, but you really haven't experienced Government corruption and waste until you leave the developed world.

Like everything else "work ethic" is all relative. Some General Construction Laborer is going to think office workers have it easy. Some guy in Vietnam hustling on the streets with 3 jobs will probably laugh at our cushy "entitlements" such as 8 hour work days, weekends and paid vacation time off. As one of them told me "If I don't work, I don't eat".

[meme405]

:ifyouknow: at all the people bragging about their work ethic while posting on RS during business hours. Retirees notwithstanding.


Edit: Now that I'm on lunch I can elaborate more :smug:

Let me preface this by saying I've worked in many jobs both quasi-Public (with a Union) and Private (with and without a union). I currently work in the private sector without a Union. The only real difference I can attest to? I like not having union dues deducted off my paycheque. There's dog fuckers in every job but I believe there's a majority of hardworking people in any profession and company. You people that bitch endlessly about public sector unions, or unions in general - really need to get over yourselves.

Who's to say that if you landed your first job out of school at say, the BC gov't, that you wouldn't be as entitled and "lazy" as those you despise so much. And by that I mean you are a total product of your environment and experiences. There's always going to be a guy that thinks he's working harder than everyone else in the company. I believe that's an inefficiency caused by ineffective management and poor corporate culture. Fact of the matter is, with as much waste there is in the public sector, BC is still efficiently run and solvent. Sure could taxes be lower? Of course, but you really haven't experienced Government corruption and waste until you leave the developed world.

Most people here aren't blaming the workers, I've watched hardworking tradespeople who I have had as foremen and superintendents on projects become lazy and useless when they started working at the docks.

So it is definitely the case of you are a product of your environment, the problem here is that public sector unions are the ones that create this environment. They throw their weight around and because of politicians fear of not getting re-elected, they tread very carefully when dealing with them.

The reason why unions in the private sector don't have nearly as much power is because the bureaucratic issues are missing. A CEO doesn't have to worry about being elected, he is hired and the only measure he has to live up to is his shareholders or owners of the company.



As for the BC is still run well and solvent, I wholeheartedly disagree. I hear and see enough dealing with the government to know that the system is fucked, it has been for awhile, and it's only getting worse.

Just like the RE market, should we wait until it's been two years of everything being fucked to shit before we do something about it?

EDIT: Also as for posting during work hours, "Business hours" are just the hours during which I schedule and take meetings, and my office doors are open. 75% of my work is done outside of those hours. After I posted that diatribe last night, I worked another 2 hours, before going home to sleep for 4 hours and coming back to work. So don't lump the rest of us into whatever your experiences have been.

[SumAznGuy]

EDIT: Also as for posting during work hours, "Business hours" are just the hours during which I schedule and take meetings, and my office doors are open. 75% of my work is done outside of those hours. After I posted that diatribe last night, I worked another 2 hours, before going home to sleep for 4 hours and coming back to work. So don't lump the rest of us into whatever your experiences have been.

Pretty sure his comment was tongue in cheek as not everyone works a 9-5 schedule.

I know the government unions can be pretty bad, but it comes down to how much power the union has, and that all depends on how hard the union members fight.
I was a member of a private union and while the people were slack, 95 percenters, it was a shit labour job and people were there for the pay cheque.
My current job is a private non-union job and there are people who go out of their way to find ways to slack off.
Wife works for the government, public union job, and the culture is bad. Most of the older workers are the typical government workers that we all make fun of. If you were a go getter, you would have left that union and found another job.
That being said, some of her co-workers managed to find work in other government sectors where the people were much more hard working, but again it is the culture of the office.

But government inefficiencies is not uncommon. While that co-worker works in a place with career minded people, it is still inefficient as they are given 8 hrs worth of work and if they are done in 5, they get to slack off for 3 hrs.

[CivicBlues]

Yeah it was tongue-in-cheek and wasn't directed to anyone in particular. But whatever you're doing meme405 I hope it's worth more to you than bragging rights on an online forum.

[Ball.J.Inder]

First off. I agree with you that the VSB and other government jobs totally waste tax dollars.

But I will say, preparing for the day and taking 45 minutes to an hour is normal within any trades job. When else will you pack the all of the right tools for your task of the day? Especially in safety sensitive trades(maybe not lawn mowing), it is important to assess the task and bring the right tools. Even more so if you are a contractor.

And yeah Acklands is total shit, I work for a national company and we have to buy from them. Total bullshit if you think about how many people are getting laid off yet we pay 650 for wrenches worth 350.

And for those who are against unions. Yeah they do produce lazy workers and it is normal in all unions. But most union jobs are hard to get and you can't be a lazy person from the start to get into those. And if you are 60 years old and about to retire and everything the company promised you is taken away, you'd realize how useful a union is.

[MG1]

Hahahaha........... Acklands prices are like amazon.ca vs amazon.com. When I compare prices on tools and supplies, Acklands is anywhere from 30 to 100% higher than most other places. How can you sell shit for more than MSRP? Answer: Acklands wrote the book on the subject.

[godwin]

It is highly improbable that unions will go any where in this political environment. You can bash unions all you want, but coming up with a political and economical palatable way to replace it with a "better system" requires so much political capital and time that it is not worth it. Anyone that can do it will win Nobel Peace and Economic prizes at the same time.

I think unions can be improved and don't have to be so adversarial eg say unions in Europe, a lot of them are actually part of the management.

In the era of Trump, it is easy to promise the moon and you don't have to deliver anything.

[Gnomes]

I do agree there are rooms for improvements (as seen with every establishments) but saying "all gov't and union people are leeches and scum of the earth" is unfair and a bit too much. Like what some people say, it boils down to the individual person's work ethics and how the higher ups monitor their subordinates.

As a person who is in a healthcare unionized job for ~15yrs, I do see my fair share of inefficiencies, and people who read their union contract book trying to find ways to make things work to their advantage. Believe me, it makes my blood boil. However, I also see people who works their ass off every day. Having a supervisor who is a hard worker encourages good work ethics from subordinates while having a lazy incompetent boss will promote the laziness.

My final pet peeves: public is constantly being played by BC Children Hospital's "Think of our children" card

[Hondaracer]

my main point wasn't really to single out govt and union workers as a whole, although that is obviously up for discussion and in general those organizations do seemingly have a lack of accountability.

I dont really care if the city of Vancouver or Burnaby, or Surrey school district has slackers and entitled union clowns

Just dont go to the fucking media non-stop and be claiming to be so hard done by and essentially begging for money and assistance non-stop.

the VSB probably faces some challenges in terms of enrollment, class sizes, etc. just due to the demographics of Vancouver. However, look for solutions to the problem then. There are clearly systematic issues with the way things are being done, work to solve those problems instead of whining and crying rough shot.

[meme405]

But I will say, preparing for the day and taking 45 minutes to an hour is normal within any trades job. When else will you pack the all of the right tools for your task of the day? Especially in safety sensitive trades(maybe not lawn mowing), it is important to assess the task and bring the right tools. Even more so if you are a contractor.

I work on industrial sites, where the safety aspect is higher than anything any residential, commercial, or landscaping type work would be. If our guys start work at 7:30, we start our foremen and supervisors a half hour sooner. Start to the day goes like this:

7:15 to 7:25 - Supervisors gather and have their morning management meeting. This is where all the announcements about what is happening on site, including weather issues, or notable site issues (like critical lifts, partial building closures, blasting, etc.)

7:30 - 7:40 - crews's gather together and hold their tailgate/Toolbox talks. This is where all the information from the management meeting is relayed to the guy as well as some general safety reminders, (filling in your FLHA's, lifitng with your knees, using your safety equipment, harness's, etc).

7:45 - 8:00 guys do their safety checks, equipment is fired up, everything is plugged in.

If I walk out of the officer at 8:00 - 95% of the crew is hard at work on their day's tasks.

That means that for an average worker, starting the day takes a total of less than 30 minutes. The only day this varies is 1 day a week where we have our weekly safety meeting, this takes some extra time.

Anything beyond the above, is crap. Maybe once in awhile you might need some extra time to get your shit together, or because you are doing something special that day. But this all comes down to planning. If it happens every day that's retarded.


And yeah Acklands is total shit, I work for a national company and we have to buy from them. Total bullshit if you think about how many people are getting laid off yet we pay 650 for wrenches worth 350.


Acklands is a fine company, their business model is exactly how they want it. When you order from acklands you are paying for the convenience factor. The fact that I can buy a $15,000 welding machine, and 10 pairs of gloves for 20 bucks in the same order, and have both of them on my site the next day is why they can charge what they do.

If I don't need something immediately, I go elsewhere, of course it's going to be cheaper. But If I need a 200 dollar torque wrench, and I need it now, I'd rather pay more for it, and have it here right away, than have some tradesmen standing around scratching his balls at 45 bucks an hour.

Also anyone who pays list price out of the acklands catalogue is a sucker. For things like face shields, safety glasses, gloves, and general consumable type items, acklands actually has a very competitive price. This is especially true if you get an account and spend some money with them.

It's like lordco, the more you spend, the higher your discounts go, and at some point, the prices become very close to competitive, if not better than the competition.

[Ball.J.Inder]

related

https://www.facebook.com/dmills93/videos/10154370759865935/

[MG1]

I have access to two accounts set up with Acklands (large accounts that I'm not supposed to be using, LOL). Prices are still on the high side. What gets me is when something I need takes three days from Abbotsford to Burnaby. In that aspect, Lordco, hands down. Plus, level 7 pricing at Lordco is pretty darn good.

[yray]

acklands, motion and applied... middlemen that do fuck all

[westopher]

It all boils down to work ethics.

If you have poor work ethics, chances are, you probably have little to no integrity when it comes to everything else in life.

Part of the reason why our society is filled with losers with attitude. People who think of only themselves and have that, "Fuck everybody else," attitude.

I was taught from day one to work hard and work honestly. I've passed that on to my children. Hopefully, when they have kids they'll do the same.

Doesn't matter where you go, you see a few good workers out there. The ones who care. They're the ones who love their job and want to make a positive difference. I've gone out of my way to tell them they're doing a good job. Doesn't matter if they're working at a fast food joint or behind the desk at an office. There aren't too many of the good ones around, but when I see one, I'll let 'em know.

I've worked at many union jobs and everytime I saw a slacker, I worked harder. When I got home, I was dead tired, but felt really good about myself. It rubbed off on others, but it also got me ridiculed - a lot. Those losers went to bars, got wasted, and spent what they earned. They had marital problems and all kinds of other issues. And, they did nothing but complain, complain, complain.

There's nothing like working hard.............. then when you retire, you can slack off all you want and waste your time on forums like RS, Gulolololololol.

First off, I want to state that I LOVE what you wrote here. Being a hard worker is very important to me, and I wouldn't be doing what I am doing without having a serious fear, and hatred for failure, or less than my best.
But sometimes, especially in this day where everyone can rub their rewards in your face via social media from all angles, I'd be lying if I said I don't wake up somedays wishing I could be some lazy fuckwit that didn't give a shit about how useless he was and just cash my paycheque. There are definitely many instances of being taken advantage of due to having a real work ethic.

[6o4__boi]

lol the board has just been fired

to be replaced by a "special trustee"


There are definitely many instances of being taken advantage of due to having a real work ethic.

I've seen this happen to many jaded people in the private industry. I've seen people work OT free, put in countless extra hours worth of work because a promotion was dangled in front of them only to be shunted aside when the objectives have been accomplished. Personally, I have a couple of friends who jumped to gov because they were just tired of this and wanted to just clock in and collect a paycheque.

[StylinRed]

Looks like the education minister reads RS :P entire vsb fired

https://twitter.com/lkretzel/status/788088757685661696

[smoothie.]

If you can't beat em, join them.

It worked for me.

Free OT to paid OT. I blame the private companies that try to maximize work for dollars. At some point productivity just goes straight to shit and people leave.

[dbaz]

so gov hires crony to do the work. more cuts coming for schools

[Traum]

I have not followed the VSB fiasco too closely, but the firing right now seem quite surprising to me. More than anything else, the gut feeling suggests that it is the result of some sort of power struggle instead of trying to do what is best for our children's education.

The further funding cuts are not going to be pretty. Not for the schools, the staff, and most important of all, not for the children.

[twitchyzero]

apparently it's happened before in the 80s

ugh sounds like some bureaucratic bullshit...I dislike politics when it comes to education

Unlike school boards in many Canadian cities, trustees in Vancouver are members of local political parties and often vote along party lines. The board consisted of four members from Mayor Gregor Robertson's Vision Vancouver party, four from the Non-Partisan Association, and a lone Green Party member. The Vision and Green members voted against the budget.

Vancouver School Board fired amid dispute over budget, bullying allegations - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancouver-school-board-fired-amid-dispute-over-budget-bullying-allegations/article32392764/)

[Jmac]

I wish my job as a public-sector, unionized employee were as laid back and easy as everyone in this thread seems to think it is.

Amazing how, as a lazy, incompetent, and entitled public-sector employee, I often find myself working through breaks (without pay, had to cut both my breaks short today!), working overtime (without pay, 30 minutes late leaving today!), working at home (without pay) and I still don't have enough time in the day to get everything I want to get done.

[SoNaRWaVe]

I wish my job as a public-sector, unionized employee were as laid back and easy as everyone in this thread seems to think it is.

Amazing how, as a lazy, incompetent, and entitled public-sector employee, I often find myself working through breaks (without pay, had to cut both my breaks short today!), working overtime (without pay, 30 minutes late leaving today!), working at home (without pay) and I still don't have enough time in the day to get everything I want to get done.

one question, why? you should be paid for all that, why would you do any of that if you are not getting paid?

[dbaz]

been away too long lol. no wonder vsb was so fucked didnt realize it was vision vancouver heading it. bunch of retards

[GLOW]

vision was heading parks board too until they took shit too far and thought people will let shit happen. last election most of them got punted :victory:

[Hondaracer]

I wish my job as a public-sector, unionized employee were as laid back and easy as everyone in this thread seems to think it is.

Amazing how, as a lazy, incompetent, and entitled public-sector employee, I often find myself working through breaks (without pay, had to cut both my breaks short today!), working overtime (without pay, 30 minutes late leaving today!), working at home (without pay) and I still don't have enough time in the day to get everything I want to get done.

That's literally every single person in any sort of management position within the construction industry.

So sad leaving half an hour late! How terrible! Lol..

[Jmac]

one question, why? you should be paid for all that, why would you do any of that if you are not getting paid?
Unexpected events occur and I want to deal with them right away, we have a no unscheduled overtime policy at work (for my department, anyways), and I don't like leaving things unfinished.

That's literally every single person in any sort of management position within the construction industry.

So sad leaving half an hour late! How terrible! Lol..
Missed the point, but thanks for being condescending.

When I was in the private sector and non-union, I had the same work ethics. But now that I'm in the public sector and in a union, I'm painted as a scumbag by many in this thread.

[Y2K_o__o]

Whoever came up with the 5 min banking hour system is totally retarded.
When people who have this kind of work ethics and mentality, the system can't be productive

[twitchyzero]

jmac are you salary or hourly

[Jmac]

jmac are you salary or hourly
Hourly

[twitchyzero]

i'm with you then...if it happens every now and then no biggie but no thanks to chronic unpaid work

guess it depends on the nature of your work...you just have to learn to leave it until youre back from break/start of your next shift. I came across this a week or so ago and it was an eyeopener

http://www.chiraag.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/always-leave-office-on-time.jpg

[Nlkko]

That's true. As an employee you need to draw the line, or it will be drawn for you and you won't like it. I made a point to not reply to email outside of work hours. If the house is burning down, then they can call me. And tell you what, not a lot of things are that urgent that cannot be taken care of the next morning.

I remember my first internship, I literally do 12-14 hours every day. One of the coworkers told me something that I still remember: "You need to take care of yourself, nobody else here will do it for you".

There will always be those scumbag managers who know they are running people to the ground being understaffed but will do nothing because they look good with their boss. Remember those and don't become one of them later on. Take care of your staffs, they will take care of you.

Lots of people underestimate the feeling of being burnt out. It dawns on you and will transfer to your family. That's no way to live.

[Ch28]

one question, why? you should be paid for all that, why would you do any of that if you are not getting paid?

Unexpected events occur and I want to deal with them right away, we have a no unscheduled overtime policy at work (for my department, anyways), and I don't like leaving things unfinished.

You can't complain about being at work an extra half an hour everyday when you're the one choosing to do so. The only person you can blame for that is yourself.

[quasi]

That's literally every single person in any sort of management position within the construction industry.

So sad leaving half an hour late! How terrible! Lol..

Exactly, I work 9-10 hours a day usually not taking a break including eating lunch at my desk continuing to work. I'm not going to complain I signed up for it, nobody forces me not to take lunch or even work more then 8 hours a day but if I don't I'll never be able to keep up with my workload.

[Hondaracer]

Unexpected events occur and I want to deal with them right away, we have a no unscheduled overtime policy at work (for my department, anyways), and I don't like leaving things unfinished.


Missed the point, but thanks for being condescending.

When I was in the private sector and non-union, I had the same work ethics. But now that I'm in the public sector and in a union, I'm painted as a scumbag by many in this thread.

The difference is expectations and job security.

You probably don't have to work through lunch and stay late. Your job is not in jeopardy if you don't.

For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.

That's a massive difference

[jasonturbo]

I've managed major projects all over Canada and have realized that the negative sentiment associated with unions is well deserved in some geographic regions.

As an example,

The industrial union workforce in Sarnia ON or Montreal QC is exceptional, this is because they stay relatively steady with refinery and pipeline construction, operation and maintenance work.

The industrial union workforce in Toronto ON is absolutely terrible, they are lazy, combative, and poorly trained. They rarely get exposure to industrial work that does not involve the Government (Think nuclear power plants) which I believe has contributed to their rather toxic culture.

In general I am pro-union, these organizations have made tremendous positive change for employees, the industry, and the public. Take the IBEW, they are quite possibly the single greatest contributor to electrical safety in history, not only have they greatly extended the average life span of an electrician, but they have also made the world much safer in the process by driving improvement in the electrical building codes.

On the subject of the work performed by union vs non-union companies, it is my experience that you get better work out of union companies. more often than not a union contractor will have roughly 1/3 the deficiencies of a non-union contractor.

Sounds very anecdotal, I know - consider the following.

Private sector Jman electricians in Alberta will make about 45$/hr, with shitty benefits, some pathetic RRSP matching, and OT capped @ 1.5x rate.

Union Jman electrician in Alberta will make $60/hr (Gross based on pension contributions and vac pay included etc) + they have an exceptional benefit package and OT is variable @ 1.5X after 8 hours and 2x after 10 hours.

Assuming you were an electrician, who would you rather work for? The unions attract the better workers, that's my experience.

Having said that, when you are pulling guys from the hall you often have to be straregic to avoid the lemons. The typical approach is to request 2x the number of tradespeople you think you need, and then spend the first week weeding out the dullards. By week two you are usually left with a great team of tradespeople.

Unions are good, unions with a tight government connection - not so good, too much bureaucracy.

[MG1]

Take the IBEW, they are quite possibly the single greatest contributor to electrical safety in history, not only have they greatly extended the average life span of an electrician, but they have also made the world much safer in the process by driving improvement in the electrical building codes.

Amen to that...........

[Great68]

For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.


If only we had some sort of organised assembly of workers that would fight so that this sort of exploitation wouldn't happen....


Hmmmmmmm.......

[SumAznGuy]

If only we had some sort of organised assembly of workers that would fight so that this sort of exploitation wouldn't happen....


Hmmmmmmm.......

There has to be a fine line.
Look at the auto industry. What good did the unions do for them?

Oh yeah, and the union that was protecting the projectionist people at the movie theaters.

It's all about who has how much leverage. If you are a highly skilled worker, then I wouldn't be afraid of being fired. And even if I was, I could easily find another job.
If you are a dime a dozen factory worker, then yeah you will need that safety net of a union.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Exactly, I work 9-10 hours a day usually not taking a break including eating lunch at my desk continuing to work. I'm not going to complain I signed up for it, nobody forces me not to take lunch or even work more then 8 hours a day but if I don't I'll never be able to keep up with my workload.

Different I guess. I usually skip lunch and help out and just leave early. No way I am skipping my lunch and staying. I don't care what management thinks if I don't take lunch I leave early so I can eat. If they want me to take a lunch no matter sure. Just don't complain when work is falling behind coz I am no break.

As someone said earlier if you don't take care of yourself, no one will.

[smoothie.]

Exactly, I work 9-10 hours a day usually not taking a break including eating lunch at my desk continuing to work. I'm not going to complain I signed up for it, nobody forces me not to take lunch or even work more then 8 hours a day but if I don't I'll never be able to keep up with my workload.

you choose to be ok with this. you could always get another job that doesn't require you to self-sacrifice.

I wish my job as a public-sector, unionized employee were as laid back and easy as everyone in this thread seems to think it is.

Amazing how, as a lazy, incompetent, and entitled public-sector employee, I often find myself working through breaks (without pay, had to cut both my breaks short today!), working overtime (without pay, 30 minutes late leaving today!), working at home (without pay) and I still don't have enough time in the day to get everything I want to get done.

you're doing it wrong. VERY wrong

[Great68]

It should be a balance, and like was said before it all depends on your employer and work atmosphere.

It's one thing to put in a few extra hours, skip a lunch etc when you're hitting a deadline or whatnot every once in a while.

But if it's happening on a regular basis, that's pretty much exploitation.

I'm a salaried employee, I've had a many late days when it's been crunch time. But at the same time, I usually make that back by taking an extra day off here and there, or leaving a bit early when I need to. It's why I'm OK with it.

But if my job started pushing me to 10+ hour days on a regular basis for months on end you'd better believe I'd push back. I don't know why others would find this acceptable.

[meme405]

Unless you own the building I don't expect anyone to work an hour for free. (Granted if you own the building, your not working for free, your working to enhance future profits).

People who say they work through their lunch breaks, or stay late. If you are hourly, you don't bill for these hours?

If you are salary, does your company require Timesheets? If so do you put that you skipped lunch and worked an hour late? If so that extra two hours should get banked into your Vacation days. That's how it has worked with the companies I have been at.

Now if you are management, it's a different ball game, at that point OT is occasionally an expectation. It's been a while since I was an actual employee, but I remember my last vacation as an employee of the company I was working for, I was forced to log on and do some work from my hotel. I did so because I knew there was a problem and they needed me. I did about 5 hours of work one day, and the next I did a couple hours. Both of these two vacation days were returned to me.

As a manager you are paid higher in expectation of these moments. There's a reason you get 20%+ over the other scrubs working there.

Maybe my expectations are different because of my industry, maybe this is something that's not the same in other industries?

I see comments above, like: "I put in my 8 hours and I am gone, I'm not willing to work during my lunch, or work an extra 15 minutes to finish the task I started at the end of the day".

I'm sorry guys, but in an office setting, these are the things that get noticed, don't be surprised if you are passed over for promotions, or don't move up the ladder because of an attitude like that. Equality is great, and better working conditions are fantastic, but there will always be those who are willing to go that extra step, and these are the people you need to either decide you want to compete with for that promotion, or decide "Fuck it I'm good where I am, I could do this for the rest of my life".

And even in union conditions the situation isn't different, seniority might keep you your job in front of someone else, but it won't get you promoted necessarily.

[SumAznGuy]

And even in union conditions the situation isn't different, seniority might keep you your job in front of someone else, but it won't get you promoted necessarily.

Flip side is, "If you are not replaceable, you are not promotable" does carry some truth.
I was always that guy that put in the 130% effort. Willing to come in early or on my days off for the extra shift and stayed till the end till all the work was done. I remember one shift starting at 2 pm and ending at 5 am because they were THAT screwed for staff.
When a chance came up to move me to a better shift, my boss screwed me over because he didn't want to lose such a valuable employee.

[meme405]

Flip side is, "If you are not replaceable, you are not promotable" does carry some truth.
I was always that guy that put in the 130% effort. Willing to come in early or on my days off for the extra shift and stayed till the end till all the work was done. I remember one shift starting at 2 pm and ending at 5 am because they were THAT screwed for staff.
When a chance came up to move me to a better shift, my boss screwed me over because he didn't want to lose such a valuable employee.

I've had that happen before as well. Albeit this wasn't my professional career it was a job I held during school. Regardless I quit the next day. I didn't even make a plea with the boss about moving me up. I quit, and when I was asked why I told them. I guarantee that manager won't make that mistake again.

At certain points you gotta make moves for yourself. I have an immense amount of loyalty for companies that I work with, i've always had the attitude that if the company I work for, or am doing work for, does well. I in turn will reap the rewards. By and large I found this belief to ring true. There are instances where it backfires. But hey that's life, you move on.

Back to your specific scenario, I recognize that quitting can't always be the answer. Recommendation is to either go above the person you were speaking to, or bring the issue up and explain that moving you up or to a better position will only make your work better, or you will only be as good as you are at your new job. Failing those two, threaten to quit and see where that gets you (note: this might end badly).

[quasi]

you choose to be ok with this. you could always get another job that doesn't require you to self-sacrifice.

Yeah I thought that was evident when I said I knew what I was getting into and I signed up for it, informative post though. lol

[SumAznGuy]

Failing those two, threaten to quit and see where that gets you (note: this might end badly).

It was a job and I was young and naive plus financial constraints meant at the time I didn't think I had the option to walk away as I was student with bills to pay.
In the end, they did it a second time when upper management said they wanted to take away my full time benefits even though I was only part time and working 40+ hours a week.
I made a big stink and my boss learned quickly that it is not in their best interest to piss off one of their top workers.

Which brings back to what I said about leverage. Some people over estimate their leverage and some underestimate it. Unions or not, it's about leverage.

[Tapioca]

Ah, the public sector union bashing brigade has come out in full force in this thread.

You know what the problem is in public sector organizations? Too many managers and too many roadblocks that slow down decisions. There are lots of grunts who want to make a difference and want to make things happen. However, they need to have 10 people in the system check over their work. Then, there are policies and legislation that need to be followed.

You guys want transparency? Well, you end up with top heavy organizations who are too afraid of making decisions. It's not the person who makes 50K a year carrying a union card thats the problem. It's the 5 people ahead of that person making 100k who need to sign off on a purchase order that's the problem.

Only people who have worked in the inside really know what's up. Most of you huffing and puffing about the bloat know little about the culture and the risk aversion in the public sector.

[twitchyzero]

I see comments above, like: "I put in my 8 hours and I am gone, I'm not willing to work during my lunch, or work an extra 15 minutes to finish the task I started at the end of the day".

I'm sorry guys, but in an office setting, these are the things that get noticed, don't be surprised if you are passed over for promotions, or don't move up the ladder because of an attitude like that. Equality is great, and better working conditions are fantastic, but there will always be those who are willing to go that extra step, and these are the people you need to either decide you want to compete with for that promotion, or decide "Fuck it I'm good where I am, I could do this for the rest of my life".


I don't work in an environment where there's promotions so it's a little different

I've learned loyalty doesn't mean jack shit in my field, esp with new grads willing to work a lot less. Twice I've been with two separate teams and was let go roughly a year in (hourly, not annual contracts). Neither could cite a good reason for letting me go instead said things like "you'll understand one day" (what am I, your child?) or "we didn't see you in the big picture"(ok, so you didn't see that 3 months in?) In retrospect, I'm not too bothered by it because I know my services are high quality and I've developed a network so I get back on my feet pretty fast. Those employers probably didn't deserve my dedication to begin with so I take it was meant to be and move on to a better team who appreciates my work.

tl;dr unionized employees, be grateful

[Nlkko]

For people in the private sector, if you don't stay late, work Saturday's, and work for "free" in unpaid hours outside of work, you'll probably lose your job.



You are in the wrong job if you have to do those unwillingly. Ask yourself if that is sustainable. If it is not, I would advise anyone to do a stealth job search immediately.

Too many assholes with this kind of expectation for the private sector. You need to respect yourself first before your employer can respect you. If you don't respect your own time then why should they. Once in a while going the extra mile to get a project over the finish line because of circumstances (someone went down sick, a vendor screw up) is OK. Doing it every single day for fear of losing your job is not OK. Your knowledge, experience is your job security, not working for free.

This is why I am pro union, these workers need to be protected especially in jobs that has higher risk of injuries and requires low education level. In the private sector, you are your own union. HR are a bunch of glorified receptionist/event planner that cannot and will not protect you (who pay sign their paycheque?).

[Hondaracer]

Unions are the worst thing ever!...until you're in one lol

[Hondaracer]

You are in the wrong job if you have to do those unwillingly. Ask yourself if that is sustainable. If it is not, I would advise anyone to do a stealth job search immediately.

Too many assholes with this kind of expectation for the private sector. You need to respect yourself first before your employer can respect you. If you don't respect your own time then why should they. Once in a while going the extra mile to get a project over the finish line because of circumstances (someone went down sick, a vendor screw up) is OK. Doing it every single day for fear of losing your job is not OK. Your knowledge, experience is your job security, not working for free.

This is why I am pro union, these workers need to be protected especially in jobs that has higher risk of injuries and requires low education level. In the private sector, you are your own union. HR are a bunch of glorified receptionist/event planner that cannot and will not protect you (who pay sign their paycheque?).

I'd say for the most part, it's the standard across the board for management in construction. Salaried employees come with the asumption of overtime and weekends. However, in the long run I guarantee the salaried manager makes less than they should.

I've been in both situations, salaried vs wage, and it always felt like the salary way I was getting pennies on the dollar even though I'd make slightly more on the year.

Which is kind of why I'm looking to switch industries. Some good opinions in this thread regarding taking care of yourself etc. things like that have always been in the back of my mind, but it's almost reassuring to hear others tout it.

[SumAznGuy]

Which is kind of why I'm looking to switch industries. Some good opinions in this thread regarding taking care of yourself etc. things like that have always been in the back of my mind, but it's almost reassuring to hear others tout it.

I'm having the same debate too with my current work/life balance but one of the biggest hurdles I have is the unknown. The current work market isn't that great and while i make good coin at my current job, my lack of education may haunt me or any jobs that I find with my work experience may not pay as well.

[jasonturbo]

On the subject of knowing your worth and being able/willing to push back on your employer...

I recently accepted a new position (as a contractor), shortly after starting there was some dispute regarding my compensation. Keep in mind this is at a time when my industry is suffering and I am brand new to the company - but highly recommended by a number of people and enough time has passed that I have already established myself as a significant contributor.

My email
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/Mobile%20Uploads/8CC05170-F6AF-44AB-8A1D-F56D62524EAC.png

Response from my supervisor
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/Mobile%20Uploads/2B06D8A9-03C8-4D2E-81DD-F4F0B5B8E449.png

#JUSTICE

Know your worth.

[6o4__boi]

$.$


...
:okay:

[Lomac]

I'm still confused as to what jason does for a living... lol

[Expresso]

^high class gigalo.

[MG1]

No, he's the madam....... male version, of course.

[meme405]

No, he's the madam....... male version, of course.

Papasan...

[Expresso]

No, he's the madam....... male version, of course.

He says he reports to a supervisor though.

[jasonturbo]

My old supervisor made >600k/year + bonus + they paid him to fly back and forth from YVR to YEG every week + they have paid for him to stay in a hotel room at the Westin for the last seven years straight. Interestingly, it was only recently that the Westin manager was like "okay, you really don't need to pack your bags every week, you can just keep the room" hahaha

Supervisor = Director.

Lot's of people just don't realize how much money there is in urinal pucks.

On a serious note though, if I could do it all again, I would have went to law school. I would make the world a better place - one divorce at a time.

[flagella]

So what do you do for a living?

[meme405]

So what do you do for a living?

If I remember, based on past posts something to do with oil or some crap like that. The salary as well as the perks seem pretty inline for any construction manager or project manager in the oil sands or heavy industrial projects. I know the construction manager, as well as the two lead mechanical and piping guys on one of the projects I am on make $1000 bucks a day.

It's like oil sands stuff, fly in work 2 or 3 weeks, fly home for a week. Then back to site to do it again. You work anywhere from 11-15 hours a day. There's variations to every site and project depending on travel requirements and what kind of exceptions they negotiate with the ministry of labour.

We're not talking about some magical position either. These are just tradespeople who worked 10-15 years on industrial projects, they became leaders on their sites, superintendents, foremen, etc. Then clients need people with their expertise to help on their projects. If you have a billion dollar capital project, you are willing to pay someone 500k to make sure it goes well.

All of us oil sands guys aren't as stupid as people think, this is specialized stuff we do. We don't just beat steel with a hammer, and walk around site with our knuckles dragging on the ground. When you start an average tradesperson at 45 bucks an hour or more, plus overtime, plus LOA, plus benefits. It's obvious that someone with a lot of expertise in this field is going to quickly start getting into the 1000 bucks a day range.

Anyway Jason will never answer clearly, just make jokes, and dangle emails about his salary in front of all of us peasants.

[yray]

That supervisors is dukes

[SoNaRWaVe]

damn, sorry, i didn't mean to de-rail this whole thread off from vsb lol.

its just that when you're in a union, they fought hard to get the work conditions to what they are now which is suppose to protect you and benefit you as an employee.

let me get this clear, i am not telling you how to do your job.

but when you do all this that contradicts the union and your employers agreements, you kind of set a tone where now your supervisor/manager may expect this from all their employees. but one thing though, is that you will shine when it comes to a promotion lol.

but also keep this in mind:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/32/8b/d4/328bd485b8325480e44b1eecc48f5481.jpg

just don't let all these unpaid hours to start chewing at you. you need that work/life balance.

[MG1]

But if work is what makes you happy and defines you, then what?

Plus your family helps out and it becomes a family thing, where they learn how to troubleshoot and help figure things out, learn new skills, etc.......... I've had that happen at one of my jobs and it was a good thing. Even to this day, my kids talk about it. Every situation is different and people deal with shit in different ways.

As for the glass thing, I'd drink all the water, then put the glass in my pocket....... walk through life with big pockets.

[jasonturbo]

If I remember, based on past posts something to do with oil or some crap like that. The salary as well as the perks seem pretty inline for any construction manager or project manager in the oil sands or heavy industrial projects. I know the construction manager, as well as the two lead mechanical and piping guys on one of the projects I am on make $1000 bucks a day.

I work for one of the major pipeline companies, position is essentially quality manager. I am reasonably well ticketed which comes in very handy with respect to wage negotiations - it doesn't matter if you want to hire me for project management, coordination, inspection, etc. you will pay a rate that is reflective of what I would make as a chief/senior inspector working in the field or you simply won't retain me.

For Meme, since nobody else will understand:
CWB Level 3, CWB Welding Supervisor, NACE CIP Level 3, API 510/570/1169, CGSB Level 2's, Red Seal Pipefitter

It's like oil sands stuff, fly in work 2 or 3 weeks, fly home for a week. Then back to site to do it again. You work anywhere from 11-15 hours a day. There's variations to every site and project depending on travel requirements and what kind of exceptions they negotiate with the ministry of labour.

I'm typically in the office Mon-Fri from 7:30am-4:30pm, though I do occasionally have to visit sites to piss on fires, babysit, or to simply bless everyone with my presence - when you are perceived to be a big wheel, the power of optics are remarkable.

We're not talking about some magical position either. These are just tradespeople who worked 10-15 years on industrial projects, they became leaders on their sites, superintendents, foremen, etc. Then clients need people with their expertise to help on their projects. If you have a billion dollar capital project, you are willing to pay someone 500k to make sure it goes well.

So true, the best people are simply average ordinary people who have had the right exposure. The impact an effective construction manager can have on a 1B project is incredible, the good ones are a bargain @ 500k/year.

All of us oil sands guys aren't as stupid as people think, this is specialized stuff we do. We don't just beat steel with a hammer, and walk around site with our knuckles dragging on the ground. When you start an average tradesperson at 45 bucks an hour or more, plus overtime, plus LOA, plus benefits. It's obvious that someone with a lot of expertise in this field is going to quickly start getting into the 1000 bucks a day range.

This is exactly it, even as a pipefitter I would make at least $60/hr, considering my ability to contribute I'm a relative bargain @ $100/hr.

Anyway Jason will never answer clearly, just make jokes, and dangle emails about his salary in front of all of us peasants.

Clear as chalk.

On top of my full time position I am also paid a monthly retainer by an NDE company to be something of a subject matter expert.

Took 10 years to get here, I'm only 32, I still have so much time to completely fuck my life up.

I'm no smarter than the average bear, I work hard, I like the satisfaction of a job well done, and the universe has been rather kind to me with regards to timing and opportunities. I suspect if provided with the same opportunities, most people would have made it just as far as I did, if not farther.

Ugh, 9:03AM, late for a meeting lol

[smoothie.]

^ for a guy that makes so much money, you cheap out too much on cars.

[meme405]

I work for one of the major pipeline companies, position is essentially quality manager. I am reasonably well ticketed which comes in very handy with respect to wage negotiations - it doesn't matter if you want to hire me for project management, coordination, inspection, etc. you will pay a rate that is reflective of what I would make as a chief/senior inspector working in the field or you simply won't retain me.

For Meme, since nobody else will understand:
CWB Level 3, CWB Welding Supervisor, NACE CIP Level 3, API 510/570/1169, CGSB Level 2's, Red Seal Pipefitter

I'm typically in the office Mon-Fri from 7:30am-4:30pm, though I do occasionally have to visit sites to piss on fires, babysit, or to simply bless everyone with my presence - when you are perceived to be a big wheel, the power of optics are remarkable.

So true, the best people are simply average ordinary people who have had the right exposure. The impact an effective construction manager can have on a 1B project is incredible, the good ones are a bargain @ 500k/year.

This is exactly it, even as a pipefitter I would make at least $60/hr, considering my ability to contribute I'm a relative bargain @ $100/hr.

Clear as chalk.

On top of my full time position I am also paid a monthly retainer by an NDE company to be something of a subject matter expert.

Took 10 years to get here, I'm only 32, I still have so much time to completely fuck my life up.

I'm no smarter than the average bear, I work hard, I like the satisfaction of a job well done, and the universe has been rather kind to me with regards to timing and opportunities. I suspect if provided with the same opportunities, most people would have made it just as far as I did, if not farther.

Ugh, 9:03AM, late for a meeting lol

The best post ever made on RS. Respect my man.

For those wondering:

CWB Level 3

The Level 2 of this designation alone means that any individual will make $100 an hour, and that would be a bargain. Most people don't go past level 2, because for the most part not necessary, and it's a whole lot harder, and it adds a lot of responsibilities to signing your name on stuff (you can be held much more liable if something goes wrong with your level 3). Not sure if it's true someone told me years ago, there was only a few dozen level 3's in all of Canada.

I did quality work on one project near the beginning of my career, and I've done turnover management on a couple (Shuffling paperwork), while I can see the draw, I can't imagine doing it on a daily basis. I'm much more interested on the control side of projects. Schedules Management, change management, scope management, etc.

I'm a bit of a sadist, I deal specifically with projects that have begun to fail. I had a teacher tell me years ago:

If someone phones you one day and offers you a job on his project which is halfway done and offers you a lot of money to come manage it. Run.

I didn't understand what he meant at first, until I got hired onto my first fucked up project. I spent the next two years cleaning up that mess, and I probably cut years off my own life in stress.

But I took what he said to heart, and I made a business out of specifically these projects. I hunt for projects that the budget has spiraled out of control, or behind schedule by months, etc. and I make it my business to fix them. Sometimes I am hired by the consultants, sometimes by a contractor, sometimes by the owner directly (best case scenario).

It's fun for me, something new every day, a new hurdle, a new challenge, and generally a new asshole for me to deal with.

So when you see me post negative or cynical posts on here, understand that I spend my days dealing with people who are in generally the worst hole they will be in their lives, and I see people at their very worst day-in-day-out.

@Jason - It's interesting you went from a fitter to a weld inspector. I've seen people make the jump from welder to fitter, and vice versa. And obviously many welders jump to being inspectors. Just never seen someone go from fitting and get their inspection tickets. Unless you are a ticketed welder as well?

[chouchou]

I guess since this has turned into a general employment thread....

What's a good way to figure out your worth? Is it generally acceptable in an office-place to ask others in a similar capacity as you how much they make?

[meme405]

What's a good way to figure out your worth? Is it generally acceptable in an office-place to ask others in a similar capacity as you how much they make?

The topic of salary is a touchy one with many people. I know for me I usually make a joke of some sort about how I am an unpaid intern, get paid in trident layers, etc.

If you are among friends who discuss that sort of thing, or the conversation is going there, then that's one thing. Otherwise the topic is a little taboo, or at least in my mind.

If you did need to figure it out, I'd recommend seeing a career counselor, or even a placement agency (like Aerotech), they can help you figure out your worth based on skills, industry, experience, etc.

Failing that if you really want to bring the conversation up with someone, take the asking for help route, rather than the I'm a nosey jerk route. AKA strike a conversation about work, and talk about how you saw another opening and the pay seemed a bit better. I think from there you can transition into the topic of money rather easily. You need to make it seem like your asking for their advice, and hope that they open up about it. Just walking up to someone and outright asking them what they get paid, will make you look like a douche.

This is all my opinion, I know others who couldn't care less, and if someone wants to know they will just yell it aloud.

[westopher]

Took 10 years to get here, I'm only 32, I still have so much time to completely fuck my life up.

I'm no smarter than the average bear, I work hard, I like the satisfaction of a job well done, and the universe has been rather kind to me with regards to timing and opportunities. I suspect if provided with the same opportunities, most people would have made it just as far as I did, if not farther.

Ugh, 9:03AM, late for a meeting lol
This is why even with your narcissistic, crybaby, Chihuahua owning persona, I still think you are a guy I'd love to sit down and have a beer or 10 with. Regardless of your success, unlike so many people in your position, you know you aren't this fucking special specimen of a human. Respect.
Humility goes a long way.

[mikemhg]

School Board is one of our clients. Let's not even talk about the abuse of the long term disability plan by some district employees, or as we call it "early retirement". It's quite mindblowing if you see the waste behind the scenes.

VSB is definitely having issues right now in terms of budget, their 4 of their trustees have gone on stress leave (disability of course). So that tells you what's going on right now.

Check the date on this post... told ya :)

[snowball]

Check the date on this post... told ya :)

They went on stress leave to delay the deadline for making a decision on which schools they would close (to balance the budeget) so overall they got what they wanted.

They were gonna get fired anyways as they were never going to get a balanced budget.

[prolepsis]

The topic of salary is a touchy one with many people. I know for me I usually make a joke of some sort about how I am an unpaid intern, get paid in trident layers, etc.

...

Failing that if you really want to bring the conversation up with someone, take the asking for help route, rather than the I'm a nosey jerk route. AKA strike a conversation about work, and talk about how you saw another opening and the pay seemed a bit better. I think from there you can transition into the topic of money rather easily. You need to make it seem like your asking for their advice, and hope that they open up about it. Just walking up to someone and outright asking them what they get paid, will make you look like a douche.

This is all my opinion, I know others who couldn't care less, and if someone wants to know they will just yell it aloud.

This is good advice--as you point out, if you approach it from the "asking for help" or "wanting to learn" route, people will often be more open and helpful.

Or, people often are more open to talk about salary ranges for a particular profession or position.

Alternatively, for the public sector, you can look up information on employees who make 75k or up. Note that in many cases, the number includes how much the benefits are worth, pension contributions, etc., so that it's a total number, rather than just salary.

Public Sector Salaries - Vancouver Sun - Basic Search (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/public-sector-salaries/basic.html)

You can also search by job titles via the advanced search, but not all roles have the same title--best to try different variations.

This may give you a rough sense of what folks in specific positions can make, though of course the specifics vary, based on experience, sector, etc.

Public Sector Salaries - Vancouver Sun - Advanced Search (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/public-sector-salaries/advanced.html)

[Hondaracer]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/sniperslayer/8C2BAFC1-859F-4152-9835-5A03C86E5175_zpsddxwhduz.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/sniperslayer/media/8C2BAFC1-859F-4152-9835-5A03C86E5175_zpsddxwhduz.jpg.html)