[flagella]

Surprised no thread on this yet?

Trudeau cabinet approves Trans Mountain, Line 3 pipelines, rejects Northern Gateway - Politics - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-cabinet-trudeau-pipeline-decisions-1.3872828)

[Hondaracer]

Lulz at all the anti Harper tree huggers who thought he was actually gonna change anything.

At least Harper didn't sound like he was in the pockets of big corp.

Now let's go buy some 30 year old jets and give money to some ducking African country!

[DragonChi]

With Harper, Northern Gateway would have been approved. I have no doubt.

Kinder Morgan makes more sense, since it doesn't go through extremely sensitive habitat. I believe that the line is a twinning of existing infrastructure. The only impact I see that project having is the increased tanker traffic in Vancouver.

[adambomb]

so are we going to see "Trudeau" stickers on our stop signs now? :lawl:

Funny how quickly SJW's switch teams when they feel they are losing. JT is Harper with the good hair. :D

[carisear]

Lulz at all the anti Harper tree huggers who thought he was actually gonna change anything.

At least Harper didn't sound like he was in the pockets of big corp.

Now let's go buy some 30 year old jets and give money to some ducking African country!

I still don't quite understand what the big deal is with buying the newest, latest jet is?

imagine going to war with 1983 jimmy ... most of us wouldn't even trust it to go get groceries ... anyways ...

I think trudeau made a good compromise with this announcement. This is probably his first bit of real policy he's had to do since becoming pm, and I approve.

If he didn't allow anything, what's happening in the US would be coming to Canada -- the rural/urban divide is already huge ... that would've just made it bigger.

As long as everyone is mad, it's a good decision :P

[whitev70r]

Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain Pipeline
https://i.cbc.ca/1.3873696.1480465628!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/trans-mountain-pipeline.jpg

Line 3, seems like nobody really cares, there is already an existing pipeline there.
https://i.cbc.ca/1.3872817.1480461440!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/line-3.jpg

Northern Gateway REJECTED
https://i.cbc.ca/1.3872820.1480461418!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/northern-gateway.jpg

Liberals won't lose any political votes on this decision ... because Conservatives would have approved all three proposed pipelines. Well ... maybe Liberals will lose some to NDP but it's not like they will form gov't.

[westopher]

so are we going to see "Trudeau" stickers on our stop signs now? :lawl:

Funny how quickly SJW's switch teams when they feel they are losing. JT is Harper with the good hair. :D
People need to quit with labelling anyone who isn't conservative an "SJW."
Its such a wannabe tough guy act.
Personally, I can see people switching their opinions of Trudeau considering he ran on a campaign of electoral reform, and no pipelines or increased tanker traffic.

I'm fairly "for" certain pipelines as they actually increase the safety of transport, but they need to come with very strong consequences for spills. Ones that I'm sure won't be put in place. I hope I'm proven wrong if such a thing ever happens.

Very happy to see the northern gateway denied. I think these were the right decisions, and a compromise that should make most people on each side of the environment/economy happy, however Trudeau went full retard with his campaign promises so people on both sides will go so extreme and be angry either way because everyone invested so much into their Facebook statuses that they can't bear to give any ground to what is actually smart.

[tiger_handheld]

Why not build a line from Bruderheim to Edmonton and pay royalties to KM to use existing infrastructure?


edit: not familiar with the contents flowing through KM and NG lines.

[DragonChi]

My guess of why they aren't using existing infrastructure is because it's already being used.

[whitev70r]

I know it sux for BC but objectively speaking, AB really needed this.

[Hondaracer]

I agree completely with the decision. I just think most liberal supporters (at least the ones that thought they knew what they were doing when they voted) would have leaned towards clean energy and native lands.

Also he IS buying old jets, and the smallest squadron you can possibly buy lol..

[Tapioca]

The oil is going to be extracted anyway, so it's far better to increase pipeline capacity than to have that oil shipped by rail or truck.

[Mr.C]

Liberal voter here. Great decision by Trudeau. The KM expansion is much better, environmentally speaking anyway.

[meme405]

Why not build a line from Bruderheim to Edmonton and pay royalties to KM to use existing infrastructure?


edit: not familiar with the contents flowing through KM and NG lines.

The current lines are at, or very close to their capacities. Not only that but some of these pipelines currently in use are aging infrastructure.

That's the part that kills me about the "no" campaigns, they neglect to realize the benefit from replacing older lines with newer lines utilizing the newest construction and QC standards.

But no by all means feel free to block these new lines, meanwhile they will keep pushing more product through the old infrastructure which is held together with chewing gum and duct tape. That sounds like a way better idea...

Believe me if Enbridge didn't have to spend 40 billion dollars, they wouldn't want to, the fact that they recognize the need to twin a line and upgrade it, is proof enough that it's probably a safer option than whatever other methods they would come up with if it gets rejected.

I said it before, and someone else mimicked it above, that fucking bitumen is coming out one way or another, truck, rail, or pipeline, you take your pick.

EDIT: while were at it, those natives in Standing rock will eventually extort enough money out of the Bakken people, and then after that you won't hear another peep about "their sacred land" or the "ancient burial sites". These natives have taken you all for a ride, they don't give a fuck about anything except making sure they get their cut off the top. And these stupid protesters rush to their defense as if they are standing behind someone who truly gives a fuck, hah. If you give them enough money, fuck a pipeline, most of them would be happy to let you just free flow a river of oil through their "ancestors land".

In the wise words of Wu Tang:

"Cash Rules Everything Around Me"

[DragonChi]

I have not fact checked but:
Vivian Krause?s poignant article ?The cash pipeline opposing Canadian oil pipelines? is a must read | BOE Report (http://boereport.com/2016/10/04/vivian-krauses-poignant-article-the-cash-pipeline-opposing-canadian-oil-pipelines-is-a-must-read/)

Because relevant.

[Great68]

I think trudeau made a good compromise with this announcement. This is probably his first bit of real policy he's had to do since becoming pm, and I approve.


Agreed. I align with Liberals because they're the "Center" party. This decision was a good compromise in my opinion as well.

[westopher]

I have not fact checked but:
Vivian Krause?s poignant article ?The cash pipeline opposing Canadian oil pipelines? is a must read | BOE Report (http://boereport.com/2016/10/04/vivian-krauses-poignant-article-the-cash-pipeline-opposing-canadian-oil-pipelines-is-a-must-read/)

Because relevant.
Sounds a bit tinfoil hatty, but its certainly possible, and brilliant if true. Thats some Cobra command type evil shit.

[jasonturbo]

With Harper, Northern Gateway would have been approved. I have no doubt.

Kinder Morgan makes more sense, since it doesn't go through extremely sensitive habitat. I believe that the line is a twinning of existing infrastructure. The only impact I see that project having is the increased tanker traffic in Vancouver.

Wrong, gateway is a sacrificial lamb of sorts, approve two and reject one, the one that doesn't matter.

Enbridge doesn't care about the approval of Gateway anymore, the company disbanded the entire project team almost a year ago - the main shipper (and fianancier) was suncor and they couldn't find a customer for the oil.

[underscore]

<snip>
I said it before, and someone else mimicked it above, that fucking bitumen is coming out one way or another, truck, rail, or pipeline, you take your pick.
<snip>

I absolutely agree with your entire post, and this part especially. It's gonna move, so people can either try to say "no" and have zero input, or try to negotiate and at least have some input into ensuring things are done to a higher standard. Their choice.

Activists have been lining up to oppose the project, with one B.C. First Nation near the project's route warning its construction could threaten the community's very "survival," and it has not ruled out protests and court action.

I'm sorry but how exactly? The existing pipeline is being twinned, so unless they all live immediately beside the current line I'm not sure how this will really impact them.

[Timpo]

Why do we have so many people trying to protest against this pipeline?

I think pipeline is far better than transporting oil by trailer on highway or cargo train.

[Hondaracer]

Unless you live in a fucking yurt and get your news via carrier pigeon what right do you have to protest the pipeline?

Everyone at the stupid protests filming with their iPhones and a backup DSLR wearing fucking arterryx jackets and eating McDonald's

Good think none of those products are petroleum based though

[StylinRed]

I don't think anyone expected any government to reject the pipelines? That would just be unrealistic! Hell I'm surprised the northern gateway was rejected, that's probably due to low energy prices, or a stepping stone movement, it'll likely get approved under a 'revised' proposal in several years

As for jets, the old ones are still better than that crappy raptor

[DragonChi]

Wrong, gateway is a sacrificial lamb of sorts, approve two and reject one, the one that doesn't matter.

Enbridge doesn't care about the approval of Gateway anymore, the company disbanded the entire project team almost a year ago - the main shipper (and fianancier) was suncor and they couldn't find a customer for the oil.

Gateway is a sacrificial lamb now that it's seen all this opposition. I think they would have still built it if they were given the choice.

When oil prices rise again, they will not have a hard time finding a customer in Asia, which was the original reason why they wanted to build it.

[Hondaracer]

As for jets, the old ones are still better than that crappy raptor

i'll assume you're speaking of the F35 and not the F22, perhaps the greatest plane ever built? lol

[StylinRed]

i'll assume you're speaking of the F35 and not the F22, perhaps the greatest plane ever built? lol

expensive, short supply, not equipped with the "latest" (kinda old now) air to air missiles, unable to counter electronic attack

waste o $

[jasonturbo]

Gateway is a sacrificial lamb now that it's seen all this opposition. I think they would have still built it if they were given the choice.

When oil prices rise again, they will not have a hard time finding a customer in Asia, which was the original reason why they wanted to build it.

Lots of assumptions in that post, the opposition is easy to overcome, you just pay the Natives their fair share and instead of opposing the pipeline they become vehement supporters - the strongest possible lobby group you can send to Ottawa is the Natives.

Here's an interesting piece of news nobody has yet, TCPL is putting the KXL assets up for sale (Line pipe, valves, pumps, motors, VFD's, camps, Etc), they have effectively cancelled the project, despite the fact that they will soon have a pipeline friendly president in office.

TCPL simply does not have a customer for the volume - same story as Gateway.

Mind you there is one difference, KXL was fully funded by TCPL, ouch, talk about sunk costs.

[melloman]

Gateway would've fucked us in BC hard if a spill ever happened, thus I agree with the rejection and approval of KM and Line 3.

IIRC reading through the notes on Gateway, in Alberta the liability would've been 100% covered by Suncor, yet when coming through BC, the liability was split and capped thus burdening the BC government. (Ie. fucking us tax payers in the end)

Regardless, oil is slowly picking up, and another pipeline proposal will come, it's just a matter of time.

[jasonturbo]

Any coastal spill would be terrible, I would argue the consequences of a spill near the GVA would be more devastating than a spill near Kitimat.

With regards to spill clean up costs;

According to the NEB's Pipeline Safety Act, companies have unlimited liability when proven to be at fault or negligent, they are ultimately responsible for the safe operation of the asset and the costs associated with spill clean up in the event of a loss of primary containment.

Additionally, the absolute liability provision means that companies operating major oil pipelines will now also be liable for all costs and damages up to $1 billion, regardless of fault.

So hypothetically speaking, even if some lunatic bombs the pipeline and causes a spill, the first 1B in clean up costs are the responsibility of the pipeline company.

[underscore]

Gateway would've fucked us in BC hard if a spill ever happened, thus I agree with the rejection and approval of KM and Line 3.

What's more likely to have a spill though, a brand new pipeline built to the latest standards and safety regulations, or a bunch of old train cars and tanker trucks?

[Hondaracer]

That's why there's so much irony in the opposition to twinning the pipeline

The new line is probably 100X safer than the existing old line is

[jasonturbo]

Yeah the obvious failure on the part of the protesters, oppose pipelines on the notion that it's bad for the climate while unintentionally supporting other shipping methods which are much more damaging to the climate.

Never mind the hypocrisy of protesters living a lifestyle that involves a tremendous amount of petroleum based product consumption.

Ultimately it's all about risk, perhaps there is slightly less risk of major spill catastrophe shipping by train simply due to the volume differential... but there is certainly far more long term airborne emissions related risk with shipping by train.

Meh, gotta suck this shit out of the ground now, 30 years from now it may be virtually worthless.. then we will see how great Canada's economy really is.

[DragonChi]

Lots of assumptions in that post, the opposition is easy to overcome, you just pay the Natives their fair share and instead of opposing the pipeline they become vehement supporters - the strongest possible lobby group you can send to Ottawa is the Natives.

Here's an interesting piece of news nobody has yet, TCPL is putting the KXL assets up for sale (Line pipe, valves, pumps, motors, VFD's, camps, Etc), they have effectively cancelled the project, despite the fact that they will soon have a pipeline friendly president in office.

TCPL simply does not have a customer for the volume - same story as Gateway.

Mind you there is one difference, KXL was fully funded by TCPL, ouch, talk about sunk costs.

It wasn't only the natives that were protesting against Gateway. There was a lot of protest in Victoria and Vancouver as well against it. Many were campaigning against the pipeline.

Damn, I was hoping that KXL would go through too. It's kind of sad to hear that it won't be built, then again, it's been stalled for like 5 years now.

[flagella]

Lots of assumptions in that post, the opposition is easy to overcome, you just pay the Natives their fair share and instead of opposing the pipeline they become vehement supporters - the strongest possible lobby group you can send to Ottawa is the Natives.

Here's an interesting piece of news nobody has yet, TCPL is putting the KXL assets up for sale (Line pipe, valves, pumps, motors, VFD's, camps, Etc), they have effectively cancelled the project, despite the fact that they will soon have a pipeline friendly president in office.

TCPL simply does not have a customer for the volume - same story as Gateway.

Mind you there is one difference, KXL was fully funded by TCPL, ouch, talk about sunk costs.

What, TCPL is selling KXL? Is this some nonpublic info?

[jasonturbo]

What, TCPL is selling KXL? Is this some nonpublic info?

The asset sale brochure was circulated to me a couple days ago, so I would have to say the company does not feel that it is "material" in terms of requiring a press release etc.

The brochure does not state anything about cancelling the project... though it would be reasonable to assume that is the case given the nature of the brochure.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/jasonturbo/8F1DD810-05E6-44FB-B12C-85CE5A785661.png (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/jasonturbo/media/8F1DD810-05E6-44FB-B12C-85CE5A785661.png.html)

If anyone would like to buy insider info feel free to PM me lol

I was told Transmountain and Line 3 were approved on friday, Gov not good at keeping secrets

[Mr.Money]

^^...i'll take 1 million worth of shares for each :troll:

[MrPhreak]

I didn't expect to see a BC pipeline approved at all, so having at least 1 go forward under JT is surprising

[SkinnyPupp]

And here come the oil spills (https://bc.ctvnews.ca/trans-mountain-pipeline-shut-down-after-spill-in-darfield-b-c-1.3947420#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=IQGcULe)

[320icar]

nah, everyone in BC is just a cunt for not accepting it with open arms

edit....

after about 100 litres of crude spilled from a pump station in Darfield, B.C. i believe spills larger than that have happened at quick lube places, no one really hears anything about that. its been many many many years since ive worked somewhere with oil. i believe for gas (state) anything more than 100L must be reported. for most liquid petroleum products, like gasoline or lubricants, you dont actually need to report it until its over 200L. although emergency containment protocols are suppose to be put in place over 100L (if it happened in vancouver at a quick lube place or something, hazmat and fire department are suppose to be called)

[SkinnyPupp]

Yeah it wasn't a huge spill or anything.. I wonder do trains and trucks spill this much all the time, but it just doesn't get reported?

[320icar]

aaaaaabsolutely. think of all the construction and industry going all around the province all the time. hell, just one 4x4 rig who punctures an oil pan can dump 15L+ of oil onto the trail, and i can only assume that happens on a daily basis (in a province almost 8x the size of england)

[SkinnyPupp]

There must be a way to get that information accurately...

[ScizzMoney]

Spill half a drum of oil, gets news attention PogChamp

[ScizzMoney]

On a side note, from my experience / expertise with pipes, they should start using non-intrusive ways to measure flow. They could use instruments that go around the pipe that measure flow, and they are very accurate. These flow meters that I assume they are using can get gummed up and not read that well after a long period of time.

[SkinnyPupp]

Spill half a drum of oil, gets news attention PogChamp
If you saw someone do an oil change and dump the oil into the street gutter, would you not make note of it at all? Just ignore it since it's such a small amount?

[J____]

so much oil coming through BC and still gas is so expensive in van

[ScizzMoney]

If you saw someone do an oil change and dump the oil into the street gutter, would you not make note of it at all? Just ignore it since it's such a small amount?

Completely different scenario you ninny. One is a mechanical failure, which actually is somewhat concerning because they should have changed out the meter and associated piping before it failed. And one would be someone deliberately dumping oil where it shouldn't be, and used oil is far worse (contaminants are generally any of the following: Benzene, Toluene, Ethylbenzene, Xylene, Lead) than unused product.

They are required to report any release of oil of any amount from any of their pipelines (which is a good thing). And knowing where and how flow meters are installed it's going to spill on their own section of property which requires the area to be lined underneath where common maintenance may occur (ie. at a terminal or pump station).

So to answer your question, I would make note of someone dumping oil into a street gutter.

[underscore]

If one semi trailer full of oil wrecks it's 300x that amount dumped out, and it's not gonna be in a convenient place like the pump station. Not to mention all the smaller leaks that already happen but don't make the news because they're small and so frequent.

A few years back a semi caught a curb with its fuel tank and dumped probably 100L of diesel all over the parking lot. A cleanup team had to come in, and I'm sure it got reported to somebody, but definitely didn't make the news.

[originalhypa]

Completely different scenario you ninny.

Did you seriously call him a ninny?!

PogChamp

:awesom:

:nyan:

[Great68]

If one semi trailer full of oil wrecks it's 300x that amount dumped out, and it's not gonna be in a convenient place like the pump station. Not to mention all the smaller leaks that already happen but don't make the news because they're small and so frequent.

A few years back a semi caught a curb with its fuel tank and dumped probably 100L of diesel all over the parking lot. A cleanup team had to come in, and I'm sure it got reported to somebody, but definitely didn't make the news.


Back in 2011 this was MUCH worse:
https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/trucker-under-investigation-for-malahat-fuel-truck-crash-spill/

30,000L of diesel nearly wiped out the entire salmon run in the goldstream river for that year.

[SkinnyPupp]

Did you seriously call him a ninny?!

PogChamp

:awesom:

:nyan:
It's funny because I don't have an opinion on the pipelines one way or another. The whole reason I posted the story and started posting here is to get more information so I could have one. When I see people saying 100L of spilled oil is no big deal, I want to know why they think that. Is it because they know how much is normally spilled by trucks? Or is it because they support the pipeline no matter what, and will play down anything bad about it (gee where have we seen this kind of thinking before?)

So I ask some questions, and get called a "ninny".. that's where I just stop reading and click the fail button and move on, hopefully getting a smarter answer from someone else (like Underscore's and 68's replies).

So far it is looking like trucks and trains transporting oil is just as, if not more dangerous than a pipeline (especially a newer one). And people just want to support their "team" no matter what the facts are. If you're anti-pipeline, it's because you've been convinced of it politically, and will downplay anything negative about other options, and play up anything negative about pipelines, like a 100L contained spill.

[Jmac]

100 L is fuck all especially at a facility.

I'd say I'm more anti-pipeline than not. The extra pipeline capacity is to ship raw bitumen to foreign markets for processing. Currently, over 99% of our bitumen exports go to the USA. While I'm sure Canada would like to expand that, the competition supplying Asian markets is tough (read the report from the NEB and Environment Canada documenting potential markets and associated challenges) and most bitumen transported is expected to go to the US. Since Keystone XL is now moving forward, most bitumen heading stateside will use that pipeline and it's only the bitumen headed to California that would be transported via TransMountain.

Trudeau's government struck a deal with Alberta and Saskatchewan to get them to sign onto the Carbon Tax reform and part of that deal was getting certain pipelines built (TM being one of them). That's why they're all pissed off, which is a legit reason.

[ScizzMoney]

Yeah it wasn't a huge spill or anything.. I wonder do trains and trucks spill this much all the time, but it just doesn't get reported?

Train derailments aren't completely uncommon, I used to have access to the statistics with my old job since I was in a regulatory type of position but I stepped away from that line of work. Oil itself wasn't common in derailments because engineers / conductors know the risks of transporting liquids and how liquids shift weight while in transport. More of the 'spills' were usually sulfur or coke dust (kind of like coal).

One thing about reporting and the fine print of it is that oil contaminated soil isn't considered 'hazardous'. After any spill, the soil gets cleaned up and then mixed around and sampled and sent to a lab for classification. These 99% of the time come back as a 'leachable waste solid - contaminated with oil' or they'll say hydrocarbon if it was a lighter oil. So when prying eyes ask about hazardous spills, by omission they can say they haven't had one in a while, etc.

If anyone ever gets bored enough, find a Class 2 landfill and just observe the amount of dump trucks going into it. If they are hauling soil into the landfill, chances are it came from an oil spill. I responded to a spill years ago where we had 80-120 tridem dump truck loads a day for over a month, and I never heard a sniff about that spill on the news.

[underscore]

So far it is looking like trucks and trains transporting oil is just as, if not more dangerous than a pipeline (especially a newer one).

Another number I found to compare, the pipeline currently has a throughput of 47,700,000L/day. At 30,000L/truck, the pipeline is moving ~1,600 trucks or ~10 trains worth per day (I assumed ~200 cars per train). One truck crash could release up to 30,000L and one train crash could release up to 5,000,000L.

Train accidents seem fairly uncommon, but most people remember Lac-Megantic. Trucks have smaller volumes but according to https://www.bctrucking.com/industry/safety there's about 1,900 collisions per 10,000 trucks (19%). A lot of those are probably just small fender benders but if they really did replace a pipeline with the equivalent 1,600 trucks/day then it looks like ~300/day would be in some sort of accident. At that rate I doubt it would take long for one of them to be serious enough to have a big spill.

[westopher]

I'd like to honestly see why people are as passionate on the pro-pipeline side as they are. I can understand people who work in the industry, but what benefit does this give the average Canadian? How many jobs will this provide, short term, and long term? Is this information available from an unbiased source?
I read that the show riverdale actually puts more money into the Canadian economy yearly than this pipeline will. I have not confirmed the truth of that, but if thats true, it doesn't seem like so many people should be this passionate about the project, never mind that pouting child Notley calling it the "lifeblood of the Canadian economy."

[ScizzMoney]

For me, the biggest reason I want the pipeline is to keep oil out of trains as much as possible. Growing up in the interior of BC, you drive along side trains all the time that also happen to follow rivers everywhere they go. Also, now working in the oil industry and at a place that puts hundreds of thousands of oil downstream I know how safe Canadian pipelines are. Especially safe now that the microscope is hovering over the industry 100% of the time.

The pipeline won't add a whole lot of jobs directly right away (after construction I mean). A big amount of money will go to the province and any private land the pipeline has to go through, as well as the reservations it goes through too. Luckily with the money being public knowledge going to these reserves, it will put pressure on them spending the money well and hopefully it can go to better the future of kids on these reserves and help with education and make them more employable and benefits to society.

By having this pipeline go through it will most certainly increase the price we can sell diluted bitumen to the USA at. Right now, because the USA is the only possible buyer, they pretty well dictate the price that they buy it at. A good portion of the dilbit we send to the USA will still have to be shipped there as there are supply contracts that will have to be upheld. But if there is excess that hasn't been spoken for, having multiple markets able and wanting to use our product is only beneficial for the GDP of Alberta and in turn, Canada.

[jasonturbo]

I'd like to honestly see why people are as passionate on the pro-pipeline side as they are. I can understand people who work in the industry, but what benefit does this give the average Canadian? How many jobs will this provide, short term, and long term? Is this information available from an unbiased source?
I read that the show riverdale actually puts more money into the Canadian economy yearly than this pipeline will. I have not confirmed the truth of that, but if thats true, it doesn't seem like so many people should be this passionate about the project, never mind that pouting child Notley calling it the "lifeblood of the Canadian economy."

The 8-13B in direct spending will create a large number of construction and manufacturing jobs over the next three years, most of that money will be spent in Canada.

Long term jobs, I would suggest no more than 50 direct positions, pipelines do not create a large number of long term positions. Designing pipelines to require a significant human input would be foolish, virtually everything is controlled remotely via SCADA.

Almost all major liquid transmission pipelines in Canada are over-subscribed, we do have a need for additional capacity today just to get the available oil to market, even if it is just in Canada or the USA. Having said that, with Enbridge's Line 3 Replacement (It's really an expansion from 300k-900k), TransCanada's Keystone XL (900K), and the TMEP (650K) there will be enough liquids capacity in 5 years to last the next 20-30 worth of production expansion IMO... we won't see any other major liquids pipelines for many years.

We are absolutely financially kneecapped by exporting virtually all of our crude to the USA. Increasing access to global markets will most certainly increase the average price per barrel exported. Who does that benefit? Well it benefits producers that create many short term positions (Construction) and quite a few long term positions (Operations). It also increases the bottom line for many large publicly traded companies, that are largely owned by Canadian investment firms and banks.. this inevitably does result in "trickle down" economics.. how much we really will never know.

The only accurate numbers anyone has is the number of construction jobs that this project will create, the last estimate I saw was around 3B for total project labor costs... that's lot of income for Canadians.

Would the economy survive without the pipeline? Of course it would.

People need to be very aware of the makeup of our economy:

http://www.investorsfriend.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/GDP-2016-by-industry.jpg

Real estate and finance (Made up mostly of mortgage lending) collectively make up 20% of our economy, in the event that we have a RE melt down, the downturn in housing starts and lack of new mortgage lending will leave us with a massive economic void to fill including lost jobs.

I would suggest that Canada needs to continue supporting the O&G sector until such time that other "exportable" sectors see additional growth (IE: Techa and MFG)

Real estate does not create any real growth as it is confined to your borders, if it can't be sold to a foreign nation, you haven't injected anything into your economy.... all you've likely had are leakages due to importing construction materials.

Canada is heavily regulated, pipelines companies are entirely responsible to cover any/all cleanup costs, Canada has an amazing environmental track record of pipeline performance, and our oil isn't produced by psychotic terrorist support royalty.

To quote the brilliant Sarah Palin (AKA pure fucking moron), "Drill baby drill"

[westopher]

I completely agree with the goals of getting oil out of trucks and trains. The amount of resources wasted and environmental impact of that makes the pipeline seem like it should be praised in that sense. What I worry about it the lack of clarity about the cleanup costs and plans. Again, this may be from my lack of ability to find the info, but it does seem like the politicians and the vehement pro pipeliners don't have real answers which is concerning. I believe if Canada really wants to capitalize financially investments and focus on alternative energies will set canada up for success long term. Not to say that this isn't a good investment in current Canadian economy, but the tunnel vision so many canadians, and our government have towards oil and gas is setting us up for another 68 cent CAD in a few years.

[underscore]

What I worry about it the lack of clarity about the cleanup costs and plans. Again, this may be from my lack of ability to find the info, but it does seem like the politicians and the vehement pro pipeliners don't have real answers which is concerning.

That seems like a common concern, but what are the current cleanup costs and plans for trucks and trains? I can't say I know what any of them are so I'm curious if they're any better.

[CharlesInCharge]

Only brainwashed fools think Canadians will benefit from this... unless youre low IQ and seek to have you or your family directly benefit from it then I can see the reasoning.

Canada is a state sponsor of terrorism. People in this country will always be squeezed (financially despite all and new resource sales) like cattle to keep out putting profits for Anglo Zionist domination of the world.

Lastly pipelines leak all the time and if/when it bubbles to surface do some get detected... of course if its a massive leak then sure those are obvious.


Que in sudo intellectual to try and refute this, I will provide proof.

[westopher]

It seems like the numbers from a pipeline spill have potential to be much larger. Just some quick searches bring up a spill in Alberta spilling 4.5million L of crude in 2011, and a Burnaby spill due to Kinder morgans current line spilling 760000L.
I'm interested to read more about how KM handled that.

[jasonturbo]

They key to managing a spill and related costs/damage is mitigation, there is a lot of "science" that goes into predicting probability and consequence of failure.

Reducing the consequence of failure is the best method of reducing clean up costs, there is a lot of leak detection equipment installed so that should any sort of anomaly in volumes or flow be detected it can quickly be assessed and isolated etc.

Remember that the public and the pipeline companies have common goals, they both want the oil to stay in the pipe.

The worst case scenario would be an oil tanker failure in the inlet... and at that point it doesn't matter if the oil got there by train or pipeline.

There is risk, of course, but the companies are very aware of spill risks and the potential costs associated with clean ups, loss of income due to service interruption, and increase cost of doing business due to damage to social license.

Now.. having said all that, as an individual that works for a number of pipeline owner users as consultant, I will say that I wish it was anyone other than KMC building this thing... so far I'm not exactly inspired by their management. Although the "boots on the ground" KMC operations people are exceptional.

With respect to renewable/alternative energy, we're not there yet, it's too expensive.. there will come a day for that technology to be widely adopted as the primary means of generating energy but that will only come after petroleum is more expensive than wind/solar etc. Back when I worked at the big E full time I was involved in a number of offshore wind farm projects, the only reason they made ANY money was gov grants and subsidies.. even then they only made like 1% lol.

[Great68]

At 6 million litres lac megantic was bigger than both those spills combined, decimated an entire town and killed 47 people.
The little buffalo spill sounds like a lot at 4.5million litres, it contaminated some forest, but at least there was very little risk to actually hurt anyone.
Trucks and Trains will ALWAYS have a greater risk when it comes to life safety.

[jasonturbo]

It seems like the numbers from a pipeline spill have potential to be much larger. Just some quick searches bring up a spill in Alberta spilling 4.5million L of crude in 2011, and a Burnaby spill due to Kinder morgans current line spilling 760000L.
I'm interested to read more about how KM handled that.

The only reason KMC gets any blame in the Burnaby spill is because they allowed the City of Burnaby and their contractor working on the sewer lines (Can't remember the name off top of my head) start digging up the road without KMC rep present and with drawings that weren't 100% accurate (Drawings dating back to the 1950's rare ever are).. sure enough Burnaby's contractor smashed the pipeline with a backhoe like a bunch of baboons.

Burnaby hired the contractor and is responsible to ensure ground disturbance regs are respected including redundant line sweeps etc. It was all finger pointing and blame but ultimately KMC took it on the chin in an attempt to salvage relationship with the city.

Maybe I'm biased but I blame the city for that one, the burden is on the ground disturber to ensure the protection of existing utilities, not the utility owner.

Edit: Example of a large pipeline spill would be Enbridge Line 6 in Michigan, roughly 1M gallons of crude.. but a significant contributor of that spill volume was operations misinterpreting data and assuming that they were seeing something known as column separation causing a false alarm.. They attempted to re-start the line to override automatic shutdown like 4-5 times IIRC + Dismissed a phone call from a resident that called in the spill "Nope, not our line, everything is fine".. guess not.

Cost to clean up was something like 6B, big money and it forever damaged Enbridge's reputation.

There are a lot of remote sectionalizing valves to be installed in the lower mainland with TMEP, I think the longest single section is about 3000M,works out to roughly 14,000 barrels or a little under 600K gallons.

Worst case scenario would be something like 1M gallons spilled directly under the Fraser River, that would be an EXPENSIVE clean up... but make no mistake, they would be able to clean it up.

[twitchyzero]

looks like Ottawa will brute force the project

Morneau to announce Ottawa?s decision on Trans Mountain early Tuesday | Financial Post (http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/newsalert-feds-explore-buying-trans-mountain-morneaus-decision-coming-tuesday-2)

[stewie]

The only reason KMC gets any blame in the Burnaby spill is because they allowed the City of Burnaby and their contractor working on the sewer lines (Can't remember the name off top of my head) start digging up the road without KMC rep present and with drawings that weren't 100% accurate (Drawings dating back to the 1950's rare ever are).. sure enough Burnaby's contractor smashed the pipeline with a backhoe like a bunch of baboons.

Burnaby hired the contractor and is responsible to ensure ground disturbance regs are respected including redundant line sweeps etc. It was all finger pointing and blame but ultimately KMC took it on the chin in an attempt to salvage relationship with the city.

Maybe I'm biased but I blame the city for that one, the burden is on the ground disturber to ensure the protection of existing utilities, not the utility owner.


Do you have a construction background? KM allowed Burnaby and the contractor to work without the inspector on site? Or the contractor was working on their own without an inspector on site? How is it Burnaby's fault?

[C5_Ryder]

The operator thought it was a rock and tried to break it up. this is human error.

[DragonChi]

The only reason KMC gets any blame in the Burnaby spill is because they allowed the City of Burnaby and their contractor working on the sewer lines (Can't remember the name off top of my head) start digging up the road without KMC rep present and with drawings that weren't 100% accurate (Drawings dating back to the 1950's rare ever are).. sure enough Burnaby's contractor smashed the pipeline with a backhoe like a bunch of baboons.

Burnaby hired the contractor and is responsible to ensure ground disturbance regs are respected including redundant line sweeps etc. It was all finger pointing and blame but ultimately KMC took it on the chin in an attempt to salvage relationship with the city.

Maybe I'm biased but I blame the city for that one, the burden is on the ground disturber to ensure the protection of existing utilities, not the utility owner.

Edit: Example of a large pipeline spill would be Enbridge Line 6 in Michigan, roughly 1M gallons of crude.. but a significant contributor of that spill volume was operations misinterpreting data and assuming that they were seeing something known as column separation causing a false alarm.. They attempted to re-start the line to override automatic shutdown like 4-5 times IIRC + Dismissed a phone call from a resident that called in the spill "Nope, not our line, everything is fine".. guess not.

Cost to clean up was something like 6B, big money and it forever damaged Enbridge's reputation.

There are a lot of remote sectionalizing valves to be installed in the lower mainland with TMEP, I think the longest single section is about 3000M,works out to roughly 14,000 barrels or a little under 600K gallons.

Worst case scenario would be something like 1M gallons spilled directly under the Fraser River, that would be an EXPENSIVE clean up... but make no mistake, they would be able to clean it up.

"Rough estimates indicate that, out of the total amount of oil it spilled, BP recovered three per cent through skimming, 17 per cent from siphoning at the wellhead, and five per cent from burning. Even so, that’s not much better than the Exxon Valdez spill in 1989 when industry recovered an estimated 14 per cent of the oil. Transport Canada admits that it expects only 10 to 15 per cent of a marine oil spill to ever be recovered from open water. "

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/oil-spill-cleanup-illusion-180959783/
https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/07/13/Pretend-Oil-Spill-Cleanup/

The order of magnitude for these spills are comparable to 1M gallons.

[welfare]

Only brainwashed fools think Canadians will benefit from this... unless youre low IQ and seek to have you or your family directly benefit from it then I can see the reasoning.



So are you in favour of ngo's like Rockefeller and tides foundation, who have been consistently paying to derail Canadian oil?
https://corpethics.org/the-tar-sands-campaign/

Vivian Krause: New U.S. funding for the war on Canadian oil | Financial Post (http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/vivian-krause-new-u-s-funding-for-the-war-on-canadian-oil)


For more than a decade, there has been a complex international effort to stymie the oil industry in Canada. It’s called the Tar Sands Campaign and the main sources of funding for this campaign are the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation, the Oak Foundation, the Sea Change Foundation, the Tides Foundation and other charitable foundations, most of which are based in California. By my calculations, these foundations have provided at least $75-million for campaigns and land use planning initiatives that thwart the development and export of Canadian oil. Until now, little information has been available about the specific activities that have been funded. Not anymore.

Earlier this month, an unprecedented amount of detail came to light in a series of covering letters for 70 payments sent by the San Francisco-based Tides Foundation (“Tides USA”) to 45 organizations in the U.S., Canada and Europe. These payments total $3.2-million. I came across these covering letters using Google. All of the letters that I’ve seen are signed by Gary D. Schwarz, the interim CEO of Tides USA. Most of these letters were sent between June and October of 2013.

Mr. Schwarz’s covering letters stipulate a list of conditions including, for example, that the recipient organization agrees “not to use any portion of the granted funds to carry on propaganda nor to attempt to influence specific legislation either by direct or grassroots lobbying.” And yet these letters suggest to me that this is precisely what Tides is funding.

The numbering and timing of these payments indicates that they have been made systematically. For example, between August 2 and September 29, Tides made 27 consecutively numbered payments for a total of $1.9-million. In all cases, the donor is listed as “an existing fund.” Generally, the existing fund is not identified.

The recipients are clearly identified. From the Great Bear Rainforest Initiative and the First Nations at Fort Chipewayan to the groups pushing for the EU Fuel Quality Directive in Europe, virtually every organization that campaigns against the Alberta oil industry is funded by Tides USA, these letters reveal.

Among the initiatives that Tides USA funds are LeadNow, Idle No More, the Indigenous Tar Sands campaign, the Tanker Free Coast campaign, Pipe Up, the Tar Sands Reality Check, the Canadian Youth Climate Coalition, PowerShift and Save the Salish Sea. The gist of these initiatives is to foment opposition to pipeline and export infrastructure that is essential for getting Canadian energy to global markets.

Seven payments mention building relationships with First Nations, “indigenous solidarity,” resistance and opposition along pipeline routes. For example, through the Tides Canada Foundation Exchange Fund, Tides USA paid $35,000 for re-granting to West Coast Environmental Law “to provide legal strategies and communication support to First Nations to constrain tar sands development.”

Through the Tides Canada Foundation Exchange Fund, Tides USA also paid $15,000 to the Sierra Club of BC for a project called, “Our Coast, Our Call: Mobilizing and Strengthening Opposition to Tanker Expansion on the B.C. Coast.”

Even before the recommendations of the Joint Panel Review of the Northern Gateway pipeline are in, Tides USA has paid First Nations in B.C. to respond to the panel and to media. On August 9, 2013, Tides USA paid $67,500 to the Great Bear Initiative Society “for work with Coastal First Nations on the Central and North Coasts to prepare for the federal consultations; respond to media; and raise awareness of the costs of an oil spill and respond to Joint Review Panel (JRP) recommendations.” Tides USA paid $25,000 to the same group “to enforce the oil tanker ban for the Great Bear Rainforest through communications outreach, to maintain opposition to oil tankers, and to increase public support against the Northern Gateway pipeline.” Both of the letters regarding these payments were sent to the attention of Mr. Art Sterritt.

Tides funds the Dogwood Initiative “to cultivate widespread public opposition to tar sands oil tankers and pipeline proposals in British Columbia.” Note that Dogwood isn’t paid to oppose all tankers, only “tar sands oil tankers” — in other words, only tankers exporting Canadian oil.

On August 9, 2013, Pembina was paid $225,000 “to advance policy improvements, the narrative that oilsands expansion is problematic, land use decisions that slow expansion, and improved climate policy.” Tides USA also funded Pembina “to provide regular briefings to the Tar Sands Group and broaden the base of key influencers.” Earlier in the year Tides USA paid Pembina $55,000 “for furthering awareness of the negative impacts of the tar sands economy.” Indeed, with the recent release of its recent report, “Booms, Busts and Bitumen,” Pembina did just that.

Environmental Defence Canada was paid $212,500 by Tides USA “for outreach and education on the Line 9 and Energy East pipelines; ongoing promotion of Tar Sands Reality Check; leading government relations work in Ottawa; promotion of the Fuel Quality Directive (FQD); and supporting the work of allies.”

Equiterre was paid $75,000 by Tides USA “to educate the public on Line 9 and Energy East, participate in the regulatory process for Line 9, and assist in promoting Tar Sands Reality Check in Quebec and raising awareness of the economic challenges with tar sands development.” Greenpeace Canada was paid $90,000 “for events that show opposition to pipelines and tar sands expansion, for ongoing participation in the AB pipeline review, and for continued work to expose the nefarious work of industry and government in order to expand the tar sands” and a further $100,000 for similar purposes.

The problem that I see with these payments is that creating a negative narrative and cultivating opposition is not what charitable foundations are supposed to fund nor is it what registered charities in Canada are supposed to do.

“To be considered charitable, an educational activity must be reasonably objective and based on a well-reasoned position. This means a position that is based on factual information that is methodically, objectively, fully, and fairly analyzed. In addition, a well-reasoned position should present serious arguments and relevant facts to the contrary,” says the Canada Revenue Agency.

Some payments mention a specific pipeline company: TransCanada pipelines (Keystone XL and Line 9) are mentioned in regards to 15 payments, Enbridge in 11 and Kinder Morgan in six.

Some payments mention specific pipelines, including Line 9, the Clipper/Line 67 expansion, Energy East, as well as pipelines in the MacKenzie valley and New England. For example, the National Wildlife Federation, based in Washington D.C., was paid $50,000 “to organize opposition to the Enbridge Line 67 expansion and the Keystone XL pipeline.”

Living Oceans Society was paid $30,000 “to build opposition to the KM pipeline; conduct research on risks to human health from an oil spill, risks to wildlife, and the “blue economy;” implement comprehensive rollout strategies for the research results including ethnic audiences; and renew opposition parties’ commitment to tanker ban.” Living Oceans was also paid $6,000 for a project titled, “Exposing the threats to human health posed by a Kinder Morgan spill.”

Tides also funds the beginning of a new campaign against InSitu mining, according to one letter to the Keepers of the Athabasca Watershed Society.

The EU Fuel Quality Directive is mentioned in the covering letters regarding five payments that I’ve seen. For example, on September 13, 2013 a numbered company in Fort Chipewayan was paid $55,000 “to build the case for rejecting the Shell and Teck Frontier mines; participate in regulatory processes and use legal tools to increase regulations; work with groups in Europe to support the Fuel Quality Directive (FQD); and build public opposition to tar sands and pipelines.”

Tides USA paid the same amount to the same numbered company in 2012, tax returns show.

For a project titled, “Stop Shell and Keep Tar Sands Out of Europe,” Tides USA paid $12,000 to the U.K. Tar Sands Network, based in Oxford. Tides USA also funds Friends of the Earth in Europe and the European Federation for Transport & Environment, both based in Belgium.

In the U.S., Tides paid $1.5-million to 21 organizations including funds organizing landowners, for the Nebraska Farmers Union and for “using creative action” in small towns and rural communities along the proposed Keystone XL pipeline route.

The Sierra Club was paid $165,000 “for organizing and mobilizing opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline and other tar sands projects and for coordination with Canadian colleagues.”

The New York-based Natural Resources Defense Council was paid $150,000 for policy analysis and advice and for “co-ordinating allies” in Canada and Europe. It was also paid to co-ordinate the Tar Sands Free Northeast Coalition, particularly at the municipal level.

Forest Ethics was paid $155,000 “… to persuade a minimum of either Coke or Pepsi to confirm publicly that they have committed to eliminate fuel that comes from tar sands refineries” – in other words, Canadian oil.

[CharlesInCharge]

Only a low IQ person buys into that propaganda.

edit
https://www.revscene.net/forums/710238-dogs-released-bite-pipeline-protestors-us-2.html#post8786433

[jasonturbo]

Do you have a construction background? KM allowed Burnaby and the contractor to work without the inspector on site? Or the contractor was working on their own without an inspector on site? How is it Burnaby's fault?

The KMC line that was struck was under Barnett HWY, the City of Burnaby had work planned on a sewer line that was directly adjacent to KMC’s line.

Burnaby had contracted an Engineering firm (RF Binnie IIRC) who then contracted the construction work out to Cusano Contracting.

Via the One-Call tool Burnaby identified that a crossing agreement with KMC was needed and they proceeded to obtain said agreement. KMC as part of the agreement provided what information they had (1950’s design drawings) to the city to help them with planning, KMC also requested that they be notified prior to any ground disturbance work.

Burnaby then performed line locates using a third party contractor.

The day work started Burnaby contacted KMC and notified them that they would start digging at xxAM. KMC notified their operators of the work and one individual planned to visit site that morning.

Digging commenced with a backhoe, what should have happened was a less destructive means of excavation until positive ID could be performed of existing utilities, that didn’t happen, the line was buried over a meter deep and they proceeded to dig too deep and contacted KMC’s line with sufficient force to rupture it.

Burnaby blamed KMC for giving them misleading info (60 year old drawings), nobody overseeing the work had ground disturbance training, they didn’t understand the marks left by survey or the locate company.

That’s my understanding of how the line was struck.

If Kinder Morgan hit a Burnaby sewer line who would you blame?

For what it’s worth, my references to Burnaby include anyone working for the city... I’m not suggesting that city personnel performed any of the tasks above.

I work in Pipeline Construction/Engineering.

[welfare]

Only a low IQ person buys into that propaganda.

edit
https://www.revscene.net/forums/710238-dogs-released-bite-pipeline-protestors-us-2.html#post8786433

The payments were lifted from tides usa 2013 tax return

[CharlesInCharge]

So this means that corporations are anti-pipe line and that we should be anti-corporate? Putting two and two together means we should be pro pipeline then? this is your conclusion?

Only 40% of leaks are detected
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/20120919/few-oil-pipeline-spills-detected-much-touted-technology
https://insideclimatenews.org/sites/default/files/assets/2012-09/leakdetection_chart2.jpg

[welfare]

So this means that corporations are anti-pipe line and that we should be anti-corporate? Putting two and two together means we should be pro pipeline then? this is your conclusion?


They've paid a lot of money to thwart the Canadian oil industry.
I have a sneaking suspicion they aren't doing it for the common good of Canadians

[CharlesInCharge]

Tell me who profits from the millions of barrels of tar sands oil thats exported everyday. Remember nothing in Canada is nationalized.

[stewie]

The KMC line that was struck was under Barnett HWY, the City of Burnaby had work planned on a sewer line that was directly adjacent to KMC’s line.

Burnaby had contracted an Engineering firm (RF Binnie IIRC) who then contracted the construction work out to Cusano Contracting.

Via the One-Call tool Burnaby identified that a crossing agreement with KMC was needed and they proceeded to obtain said agreement. KMC as part of the agreement provided what information they had (1950’s design drawings) to the city to help them with planning, KMC also requested that they be notified prior to any ground disturbance work.

Burnaby then performed line locates using a third party contractor.

If they used the One-Call tool none of Burnaby's utilities would be located for them. They'd receive the as-built drawings and would have to locate them themselves. Once in a while there will be a call where they have trouble finding a city utility where a worker would have to go out and locate it for them. All private utilities are marked out by their own companies except for a few who subcontract their locators.


The day work started Burnaby contacted KMC and notified them that they would start digging at xxAM. KMC notified their operators of the work and one individual planned to visit site that morning.

A job working adjacent to a jet fuel line would take lots of planning and have inspectors dedicated to that job site to be there every day from start to finish. There's no excuse on their end why they started half way through the job knowing the inspector wasn't there.


Digging commenced with a backhoe, what should have happened was a less destructive means of excavation until positive ID could be performed of existing utilities, that didn’t happen, the line was buried over a meter deep and they proceeded to dig too deep and contacted KMC’s line with sufficient force to rupture it.

99% of all utilities are over 3ft deep and aren't given depths because the grade of the ground is changes over time. What they all do give is a measurement from property lines since those rarely ever change. Working beside them they should've been hydro excavating the entire trench to first daylight the pipe and them be able to safely dig around it.

Burnaby blamed KMC for giving them misleading info (60 year old drawings), nobody overseeing the work had ground disturbance training, they didn’t understand the marks left by survey or the locate company.

Not sure if you're talking about the contractors employees having ground disturbance training or Burnaby, but I can guarantee you Burnaby employees do especially the manager who was overseeing that job site. If they didn't understand the marks painted on the ground then I really question the skill level of who they hire and put in leadership positions.

That’s my understanding of how the line was struck.

If Kinder Morgan hit a Burnaby sewer line who would you blame?

Contractors hit Burnaby utilities all the time. Some don't even report it. Those ones do their own ghetto patch job when they can and years later when they're discovered there's a shit storm. To answer your question, Kinder Morgan would be directly responsible. If they have the drawings it's their job to find things. For an example none of the companies will do a physical locate unless asked, instead they'll do their due diligence and just send drawings.


For what it’s worth, my references to Burnaby include anyone working for the city... I’m not suggesting that city personnel performed any of the tasks above.

I work in Pipeline Construction/Engineering.



I don't hold KM accountable at all on that one. It was pure negligence from the contractor.

[jasonturbo]

If they used the One-Call tool none of Burnaby's utilities would be located for them. They'd receive the as-built drawings and would have to locate them themselves. Once in a while there will be a call where they have trouble finding a city utility where a worker would have to go out and locate it for them. All private utilities are marked out by their own companies except for a few who subcontract their locators.

Burnaby was doing the work and therefore they are responsible to locate the utilities.

A job working adjacent to a jet fuel line would take lots of planning and have inspectors dedicated to that job site to be there every day from start to finish. There's no excuse on their end why they started half way through the job knowing the inspector wasn't there.

I agree, the city of Burnaby should have had an inspector there full time overseeing the work.

99% of all utilities are over 3ft deep and aren't given depths because the grade of the ground is changes over time. What they all do give is a measurement from property lines since those rarely ever change. Working beside them they should've been hydro excavating the entire trench to first daylight the pipe and them be able to safely dig around it.

I agree, the city of Burnaby should have daylighted using a vac truck.


Not sure if you're talking about the contractors employees having ground disturbance training or Burnaby, but I can guarantee you Burnaby employees do especially the manager who was overseeing that job site. If they didn't understand the marks painted on the ground then I really question the skill level of who they hire and put in leadership positions.

The investigation revealed that nobody form RF Binnie (Burnabys rep) or Cusano had formal ground disturbance training.

Contractors hit Burnaby utilities all the time. Some don't even report it. Those ones do their own ghetto patch job when they can and years later when they're discovered there's a shit storm. To answer your question, Kinder Morgan would be directly responsible. If they have the drawings it's their job to find things. For an example none of the companies will do a physical locate unless asked, instead they'll do their due diligence and just send drawings.

Yes I would agree that KMC would be responsible if they hit a Burnaby sewer line, hence why I blame the city of Burnaby for hitting KMC's line.

None of it matters anymore now, Gov of Canada just started the Bombardier-Lavalin Pipeline Company.

[stewie]

Was the work being physically dug out by Burnaby or the contractor?

[welfare]

Tell me who profits from the millions of barrels of tar sands oil thats exported everyday. Remember nothing in Canada is nationalized.

Well it looks like the Canadian government is nationalizing the pipeline

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/feds-spending-4-5b-to-buy-trans-mountain-pipeline-1.3949663


OTTAWA –The federal government is spending $4.5 billion to buy the existing Trans Mountain pipeline, and will pick up the construction of the expansion after the sale is finalized.

The deal will see Canada become the owner of the pipeline and all of Kinder Morgan Canada’s core assets, and in return Kinder Morgan will continue construction on the twinning of the pipeline this summer.

[CharlesInCharge]

Theres no transparency in an occupied country like Canada... if its to be "nationalized" its probably so that the tax payer is publicly billed for future spills.

[pastarocket]

The Trudeau government just spent 4.5 billion of our tax dollars to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline and all of KM's assets in Canada. As per the article, the price tag is lower than KM's stated 7.4 billion project value.

That 2.9 billion difference takes into account construction costs? :considered:

Feds to buy Trans Mountain pipeline, Kinder Morgan Canada's core assets for $4.5B - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2018/05/29/federal-government-spending-4-5b-buy-trans-mountain-pipeline/)

[jasonturbo]

Was the work being physically dug out by Burnaby or the contractor?

Contractor, AFAIK the City of Burnaby did not have anyone on site, RF Binnie was responsible to act as the representative for the city.

[jasonturbo]

The Trudeau government just spent 4.5 billion of our tax dollars to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline and all of KM's assets in Canada. As per the article, the price tag is lower than KM's stated 7.4 billion project value.

That 2.9 billion difference takes into account construction costs? :considered:

Feds to buy Trans Mountain pipeline, Kinder Morgan Canada's core assets for $4.5B - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2018/05/29/federal-government-spending-4-5b-buy-trans-mountain-pipeline/)

Lol they bought Line 1 and the Project for 4.5B, they will still spend at least another 10B to construct.

It's very hard to rationalize this, tax payers will suffer.

The internal communication that came in this morning:

Message from Steve, Kim and Ian


We are very pleased to share the news that we have found a path forward on the Trans Mountain Expansion Project (TMEP) on which so many of you have been working so hard for so long. Today, Kinder Morgan Canada Limited (KML) announced that the Government of Canada will purchase Trans Mountain and TMEP for C$4.5 billion. KML will also work with the Government of Canada to seek a third party buyer for the Trans Mountain Pipeline system and TMEP through July 22, 2018. We expect to close the transaction late in the third quarter or early in the fourth quarter of 2018, subject to KML shareholder and regulatory approvals.


This is great news for the people of Canada, our customers, and for KMI and KML. Those of you who had been working on TMEP will now be able to carry on, because the Government of Canada has also agreed to fund the resumption of planning and construction work until the transaction closes. The transaction is expected to close in the fourth quarter of 2018.


Further, one of the conditions of the sale is that KMC personnel who work on Trans Mountain, the Puget Pipeline or the TMEP will transfer to the new owner. Other KMC employees will join a new KMI company that will manage the remaining assets: the Cochin pipeline, the Edmonton terminals, and Vancouver Wharves. In short, we expect no reduction in force associated with this transaction. Your supervisor and/or Human Resources will provide more information in the coming weeks on your individual situation.


As to the financial impacts, at KMI we still expect to meet or exceed our 2018 distributable cash flow (DCF) per share target, despite losing the EBITDA associated with the Trans Mountain system. The transaction will also have a positive impact on our consolidated balance sheet. KML will obviously forego a substantial portion of its budgeted EBITDA, but it will receive significant cash proceeds and retain a solid midstream business that we can build upon. More details on the transaction and on its financial impacts for both companies can be found in the press releases posted at www.kindermorgancanadalimited.com and www.kindermorgan.com.


One question you may have is about future growth, given how big TMEP is. We’ve looked hard at that and believe that both companies will be able to find attractive projects or acquisitions to drive solid growth.


Thanks to all who worked strenuously to achieve this successful outcome.

[melloman]

God I hate politics.

The only people I will blame in this entire fiasco is the NDP government.
It's not the activists, it's not the American corporations funding the activists, it's not the Green Party, because at the end of the day... The NDP are the ones to blame here.

If the NDP didn't cause such a fuss over this, it would've eventually blown over and would not turn out the way it has now.

[DragonChi]

Instead of the money going to KML, it will now be owned be the government of Canada?

I recall watching on the CBC that the Canadian government did the same thing for an offshore oil rig in the 90s, which paid off handsomely. Other countries have also done the same thing before.

[MG1]

Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters. I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.

[melloman]

I'd like to honestly see why people are as passionate on the pro-pipeline side as they are. I can understand people who work in the industry, but what benefit does this give the average Canadian? How many jobs will this provide, short term, and long term? Is this information available from an unbiased source?
I read that the show riverdale actually puts more money into the Canadian economy yearly than this pipeline will. I have not confirmed the truth of that, but if thats true, it doesn't seem like so many people should be this passionate about the project, never mind that pouting child Notley calling it the "lifeblood of the Canadian economy."

Originally it wasn't a big deal. The problem came when the NDP government decided to start slow-playing, or what lots of people are calling blocking, the pipelines construction.

The pipeline was approved on every front, then our provincial government changed and they decided they didn't like the prior governments approvals. As the NDP will state, they are not blocking the pipeline, yet are slow-playing it now because the NDP needs to hand out permits as they are requested. Well as anyone who has dealt with a government project knows, they can take as much time as they want and can delay your project as much as they want, because they're the government.

This completely undermines the private sectors processes. KM went through all the legal government channels and got every bit of the project approved. The minute the NDP decided to start to fight this in court, and then black-ball on the permit side, you lose the confidence of investors. Without that confidence, they will take their money elsewhere, and it will take some time to regain that confidence and bring that money back.

Now to answer your original question. How many jobs will this provide short/long term? Well without foreign investors confidence, we won't be building any mega-projects. Which means the energy industry, which staffs tens of thousands of people won't have big projects to work on. It's not just the jobs from this pipeline.. You need to look at the industry as a whole.

[DragonChi]

Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters. I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.



It full of Japanese stuff that came from Fukushima. Only on some parts though.

Sometimes I wonder too, if the Albertan government would build a pipeline through Banff, Canmore, Bow river, or North Saskatchewan river. Then they would have an idea of what's at stake, at least a little bit.

[yray]

TRIPLE IT AND WE CAN SELL ALBERTA WATER

[jasonturbo]

It full of Japanese stuff that came from Fukushima. Only on some parts though.

Sometimes I wonder too, if the Albertan government would build a pipeline through Banff, Canmore, Bow river, or North Saskatchewan river. Then they would have an idea of what's at stake, at least a little bit.

The original pipeline runs right through Jasper Natioanl Park.

They know what’s at stake, they also know that Canada’s landscape has never before been devastated by a catastrophic pipeline failure.

[DragonChi]

That's true and a good point. I hope that Canada will never see a catastrophic pipeline failure as well.

[stewie]

Contractor, AFAIK the City of Burnaby did not have anyone on site, RF Binnie was responsible to act as the representative for the city.

Burnaby does not require someone on site to babysit them. If they did, we'd need a lot more employees :p

RF Binnie was also digging blind without having a worker guide him from the trench or the side of it while digging. I've operated excavators before and when you snag a rock that you can't see you don't keep jerking at it. You pull back and have it hand exposed by a worker.




Going back to Burnaby locating the utilities, I have to disagree with you there. A contractor who places a 1 call ticket is sent everything in a 60-100page pdf with measurements to everything owned underground. It's not the citys job to go to every job site and babysit and the individual services to each house. It's a free call if you want to see the info that would be given to you.
If it is the citys job then I along with many others should be fired for doing my job wrong for the past almost 15 years. I'll put in a good reference for you to replace me if you'd like. You know our policies and procedures better than I do :p

[ak1to]

This completely undermines the private sectors processes. KM went through all the legal government channels and got every bit of the project approved. The minute the NDP decided to start to fight this in court, and then black-ball on the permit side, you lose the confidence of investors. Without that confidence, they will take their money elsewhere, and it will take some time to regain that confidence and bring that money back.


That's the part that has me the most frustrated. If you had the kind of serious capital to invest in a new project; knowing that in Canada a province can cockblock it because it's politically inconvenient that year even after it was formally approved. Why the hell would you ever want to risk your money here?

Even with the purchase of the pipeline, it would still give people a reason to think twice.

[Great68]

God I hate politics.

The only people I will blame in this entire fiasco is the NDP government.
It's not the activists, it's not the American corporations funding the activists, it's not the Green Party, because at the end of the day... The NDP are the ones to blame here.

If the NDP didn't cause such a fuss over this, it would've eventually blown over and would not turn out the way it has now.

It's not the green party?

You better believe that the Greens are telling the NDP if they didn't fight this project than they can kiss their coalition government goodbye.

[Ludepower]

smh at the NDP.
Once again they have to destroy what's already in place.
Tolls, msp, an approved pipeline.
This is just wasteful tax paying bureaucracy.

[melloman]

It's not the green party?

You better believe that the Greens are telling the NDP if they didn't fight this project than they can kiss their coalition government goodbye.

But at the end of the day, it is still the NDP that made the final decision. They lose all the face, because you don't see the Greens at the podiums making these announcements. I can understand that the Greens would be whispering in the ear of the NDP, but there is no gaurentee that if they don't follow Weavers requests that they'd lose their coalition, because then the Greens lose any power they have.

[underscore]

We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

Most of which is completely inaccessible and rarely seen by anyone. While I agree that we should protect the environment, massive sections of the province could be completely obliterated and almost nobody would ever see it. Every panicked about protecting the beauty of Kitimat, but how many people even go to Kitimat?

[DragonChi]

I have been to Kitimat, and putting tankers through their waters didn't make any sense.

[originalhypa]

Instead of the money going to KML, it will now be owned be the government of Canada?

I recall watching on the CBC that the Canadian government did the same thing for an offshore oil rig in the 90s, which paid off handsomely. Other countries have also done the same thing before.

I think this could be quite beneficial for the gov't to nationalize this project. Look at what other countries like China, and Russia are doing with their nationalized resource industries, and we could all share in the profit. Hopefully it's not a pipe dream LUL



Yeah, dumb move, but I guess they're gambling on the fact that taxpayers are now involved and people would be more............. nah.

Or, there's something more to this.

Fuck that Ratchet, of a woman, Notley. Just because her province has little to no natural assets in the aesthetically pleasing variety, she's all up in arms. She needs to come here and appreciate what we have here. All them albertans have is Lake Louise and Banff. We have an entire coast of natural beauty and all them mountains...............

I'm no tree hugger and I totally understand the need we have for fossil fuels, but once we have a disaster, it's gonna take a long ass time for things to get back to normal.

Then again, we have allowed open pen farm fishing in our waters knowing full well how detrimental it would be to our wild stocks of salmon. Banned in all other countries......... like W - T - F ?????

Anyway, it is what it is.

Etched into my mind are the times I went up and down the west coast of Vancouver Island on my father's commercial fishing boat. The smell of fresh ocean air and the pristine waters. I imagine it's all full of garbage and toxic waste now. Sad.

Have no fear MG1, the coast is still beautiful.
My wife and I had our honeymoon in Clayoquot Sound, and it was amazing to see the western most coast of Canada.

Every panicked about protecting the beauty of Kitimat, but how many people even go to Kitimat?

Kitimat is Terrace's retarded half brother. What an absolute shithole that place is, both in the town and the people who inhabit it.

[meme405]

Well congrats to the NDP andall the protestors. You've now fucked us all.

A project that a private company was going to take care of, and take all the risk on, and provide benefits to all residents and tax money to the government is now just another burden on our government.

And given our government's SHIT record at capital projects, I guarantee they will fuck this shit up so badly that we are all going to bleed before the end of this bullshit.

We're all fucked.

[jasonturbo]

Going back to Burnaby locating the utilities, I have to disagree with you there. A contractor who places a 1 call ticket is sent everything in a 60-100page pdf with measurements to everything owned underground. It's not the citys job to go to every job site and babysit and the individual services to each house. It's a free call if you want to see the info that would be given to you.
If it is the citys job then I along with many others should be fired for doing my job wrong for the past almost 15 years. I'll put in a good reference for you to replace me if you'd like. You know our policies and procedures better than I do :p

I would suggest it’s the responsibility of the city to select and engage competent contractors - if they did that there would be no need to babysit.

In this case, had the city engaged a more competent contractor, they probably wouldn’t have grenaded the pipeline.

The fact remains that it’s the ground disturbers responsibly not to cause damage to existing utilities, I’m sure we can agree on that seeing as you’re familiar with people constantly violating the city via line strikes.

[Adorkami]

So we now have the legal battles between the federal and provincial governments that taxpayers get to pay for? What happens if NDP wins the next Federal election? If BC is able to delay things would Singh end up cancelling it as he has already voiced his opposition to it?

[Traum]

The NDP has no chance of winning at the federal level for the next election.

At this point, I think a minority government with the Liberals or the Cons are the most likely outcome.

[DragonChi]

I would suggest it’s the responsibility of the city to select and engage competent contractors - if they did that there would be no need to babysit.

In this case, had the city engaged a more competent contractor, they probably wouldn’t have grenaded the pipeline.

The fact remains that it’s the ground disturbers responsibly not to cause damage to existing utilities, I’m sure we can agree on that seeing as you’re familiar with people constantly violating the city via line strikes.

I thought Binnie was a pretty sizable firm. They seem to be a top place to work at.


In response to the posts above, yeah NDP has no chance of winning a federal election. I'd be surprised if they won the Ontario election coming up.

[welfare]

i doubt libs will make it past next election. and cons will probably sell the pipe.
after tax dollars have gone into it, of course

[welfare]

looks great for future potential investors. a little turbulence and the gov will just invest in/bailout the whole shooting match.

[stewie]

I would suggest it’s the responsibility of the city to select and engage competent contractors - if they did that there would be no need to babysit.

In this case, had the city engaged a more competent contractor, they probably wouldn’t have grenaded the pipeline.

The fact remains that it’s the ground disturbers responsibly not to cause damage to existing utilities, I’m sure we can agree on that seeing as you’re familiar with people constantly violating the city via line strikes.

I agree 100% that the ground disturber is responsible to not cause damage. In this case Burnaby never had a shovel in their hand. The only time they would take part in construction is to tie the two ends together as that's the only thing a contractor can not do - touch live infrastructure.

Back on track now.


This is a lose lose situation in my mind. We buy a pipeline, it'll cost a lot more than expected and when it comes time to sell they'll take a huge loss and be lucky if they can even break even.

[MG1]

Hopefully it's not a pipe dream LUL


Bwahahahaha.................

Couldn’t find the “I see what you did there,” meme.

[GS8]

Still remember when that oil spill happened in Burnaby back in 2007

My favourite photo

http://images.glaciermedia.ca/polopoly_fs/1.418325.1374531015!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/img-0-5692954-jpg.jpg


#murderedout #oilbasedpaint

[twitchyzero]

that looks pretty good

[whitev70r]

So now you and I own the Trans Mountain Pipeline. I get the feeling that the majority of people are OK with building the pipeline and that all this legal wrangling and delays are a royal waste of time and taxpayer's money.

[jasonturbo]

I don't mind the idea of the gov owning/operating the asset, mind you I despise KMC and their toxic internal culture.. so anything would be an improvement.

What I do mind is the gov taking over the project without putting the brakes on it for a year or so to review and revise the design, procurement, and contracting strategies.

It is my opinion that many of the business and operation risks KMC is comfortable with will not be, and should not be palatable to the government.

They will struggle to find a buyer for Transmountain with a final price tag of 16-20B... so I'm guessing the gov will be in for the long haul with a crown corp, or a corp that is entirely owned by CPP etc.

Details are sparse but I'm told that KMC will retain the Westridge Terminal and Edmonton Terminal, effectively maintaining control of both ends of the pipeline(s). I would imagine they kept the terminals because they provided safe and reliable operating margins that were attractive to KMC... personally I think Westridge terminal should have been part of the package.

Anyway, as stated above, details remain very sparse at this time... will be interesting to see how it plays out. I will say that 4.5B for 1000km of 300k bbl/day pipeline isn't the worst deal in the world, to build that new today would be close around 7-9B.

[stewie]

If it goes through and KM no longer owns the pipe or terminal what happens to it's current employees? Switch them over or lay them off and hire all new?

[jasonturbo]

If it goes through and KM no longer owns the pipe or terminal what happens to it's current employees? Switch them over or lay them off and hire all new?

Companies are usually very good with respect to taking care of their operations personnel, I'm sure between the gov and KMC they will be taken care of.

But to answer directly, I'm not sure anyone knows what will happen the employees.

I was told last week that KMC Houston was 100% done with the project, so over the last week or two the gov and KMC obviously scrambled to get the "deal" done. I very much doubt they have had the chance to hammer out almost any fine details, staffing turnover included. Nothing will be finalized until the EOY IMO, far too many details to sort out.

[jasonturbo]

Bit of an update (Provided anyone cares),

With respect to the Federal gov's purchase of Transmountain, they actually got a pretty good deal, the 4.5B price paid includes the existing line 1, abandoned line 1, all pump stations, Burnaby Terminal, Westridge Terminal, Sumas Terminal, Kamloops terminal, and a portion of the Edmonton Terminal.

Allegedly when negotiations started KMC wanted 6B, the Feds were able to get them down to 4.5B, 1.1B for the TMEP and 3.4B for the existing assets... assets that currently generate about 350M/year.

The TMEP will continue under the existing management team with some minor changes in personnel, rumour is that an independent Canadian EPC firm (Likely SNC) will be engaged by the feds to provide independent oversight, to what degree nobody knows - Though we can assume it will primarily be for controls/finances.

Feds will be providing the project with a 2B credit facility to get things moving, things will ramp up noticeably during late July/early August.

As was publicly communicated, there is a desire to sell the Transmountain to a pension fund etc... I believe the goal is to complete the sale before the 2B credit facility is exhausted.

[UFO]

Meh, gotta suck this shit out of the ground now, 30 years from now it may be virtually worthless.. then we will see how great Canada's economy really is.

I was kind of neutral regarding the whole pipeline thing, but reading this article that has popped up on my feed a few times, has swayed me toward anti-pipeline side. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/03/07/opinion/fatal-flaw-albertas-oil-expansion

Can one of you guys in the industry offer any critique? I'm an absolute layman but do want to be properly informed before taking a side. I get its an opinion piece, but it does bring up several points:
-by the time (if) the TM expansion is completed, the economies and needs may very well be different from how it is today
-the tarsands bitumen is a low grade product, selling at a low grade price. If there is increased competition/buyers, the price may increase in the short term. BUT
-TM expansion will shift the choke point from delivery of the bitumen to shipping it away via tankers; mega tankers will not be part of the plan here SO
-oil consumers can buy a higher grade product from the US, which will be more efficiently (cheaply) shipped making the Alberta oil that much less appealing

To me if feels like Alberta is trying to get back to the good ol' days by bleeding every drop of oil the sands have to offer. It seems many are aware this is not sustainable yet the 'get it while it lasts' sentiment is strong. But what if extracting and refining that oil just doesn't make financial sense at some point down the line? What's the fall back plan then?

To add to that, I'm also not thrilled about the tripling of tanker traffic in our local waterways. Personally it feels like there are a crap load of tankers and ships in the inlet as is.

Those are my main concerns, and none of them revolve around spills and the environmental implications. And we haven't even accounted for the middle East's ability to turn up production at the snap of a finger and the effect it would have on the value of Alberta bitumen

[jasonturbo]

I would start by telling you that the source of information is typically quite biased against Oil and Gas (National Observer).

Consider the landing page:

"Leaked letter reveals Kinder Morgan broke rules for months before Canadian officials noticed company put marine life in danger"

First of all, it's not a leaked letter, it's on public record.

I am familiar with the issue described in the letter, simply put, there were a number occasions where a device called a "bubble curtain" used to suppress underwater noise created by marine piling operations was not able to reduce the noise cause by pile driving to a level that was acceptable. In addition to this, the regular reporting of underwater noise to the regulator somehow got missed for a period of 2-3 months.

For what it's worth...

The same group of people building the Westridge Marine terminal also constructed the Port Mann bridge, on the Port Mann project there was no requirement to monitor underwater noise levels and/or a maximum allowable noise level. As always, oil and gas construction is held to a much higher standard due to the public eye.

Having said that...

Yes the construction contractor did, on a number of occasions exceed the maximum allowable underwater noise levels, and yes, on a number of occasions KMC failed to report these instances. Though I will say that this sort of issue is inevitable, as you are piling there will be instances where you go from say 80db to 100db for an instant as you contact certain geological features, by the time the bang happens there is nothing you can do about it. The purpose of monitoring is to identify trends, there was never an instance to date where an excessive noise measurement was recorded for a period exceeding 60 seconds.

Perfection during construction is a lot to ask for.

I was kind of neutral regarding the whole pipeline thing, but reading this article that has popped up on my feed a few times, has swayed me toward anti-pipeline side. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/03/07/opinion/fatal-flaw-albertas-oil-expansion

Can one of you guys in the industry offer any critique? I'm an absolute layman but do want to be properly informed before taking a side. I get its an opinion piece, but it does bring up several points:
-by the time (if) the TM expansion is completed, the economies and needs may very well be different from how it is today

Of course the economy will look different in three years, it's entirely possible there will be no need for ANY pipelines at all in 3 years.. but that is highly unlikely.

-the tarsands bitumen is a low grade product, selling at a low grade price. If there is increased competition/buyers, the price may increase in the short term.

"Tar sands bitumen" is a derogatory term create by anti-oil folks, it's not as if the crude produced by CNRL (Highly processed, yellow in color, very thin) is the same as crude produced by Jacos (Lightly processed, black in color, very thick). There are standard crude classifications such as WCS (Western Canadian Select) and WTI (West Texas Intermediate) but there is no classification for "tar sands bitumen". Never mind the crude classifications you see in futures contracts, most of these producers are selling to specific downstream customers based on an agreed upon chemical composition that may not technically be identical to any typical classification IE: WCS or WTI.

The price of "tar sands bitumen" varies significantly depending on producer, end user, and the nature of the contract to purchase.

99% of our oil exports end up in the USA because we don't have any means of getting the oil to global markets, globals markets where a barrel of oil typically cost more IE: Brent crude vs WTI crude spread. With sufficient access to global markets what we will now be able to market our oil to more customers, if customers in Asia are willing to pay more we will sell the oil to them vs. refiners in Louisiana etc.


-TM expansion will shift the choke point from delivery of the bitumen to shipping it away via tankers; mega tankers will not be part of the plan here

It's one shipping terminal with a maximum daily delivery of 900BBL, that effectively works out to two tankers per day. There are three shipping berths being installed, there won't be a tanker bottle neck. It's not as if the world currently has a shortage of tankers, and it's not as if more can't be built.

-oil consumers can buy a higher grade product from the US, which will be more efficiently (cheaply) shipped making the Alberta oil that much less appealing

Higher grade product is relative, it's not what grade the product is that matters, it's what your refinery is configured for. You can ship high priced synthetic crude to some refiners and it will hurt their operational eficiency as they don't have the capacity to process the "lights" that will come from a "higher grade crude".

They can make crude as "high quality" as they want in Canada, it's just a matter of upgrading, additives, diluents etc. It's not as if the oil that comes out the Bakken region is made by jesus, it's sour AF... Any open pit mining in the oil sands produces sweet crude, some deep SAGD produces sour crude.


To me if feels like Alberta is trying to get back to the good ol days by bleeding every drop of oil the sands have to offer. It seems many are aware this is not sustainable yet the get it while it lasts sentiment is strong. But what if extracting and refining that oil just doesn't make financial sense at some point down the line? What's the fall back plan then?

Better sell it while we can, it makes up a significant chunk of our GDP.

The nominal contribution to the GDP by the energy sector is 9.9% or 187B annually, 68B of which from Alberta, or what equates to 3.6% of our GDP.

Peel out conventional oil and gas and you can easily assume that the oil sands contributes well over 2% to our GDP, if we were to lose that it would be the equivalent of losing the "Accommodation and Food Services" Sector - Imagine the economic impact of every single hotel and restaurant in the country disappearing.

The Canadian Economy at a Glance | InvestorsFriend (http://www.investorsfriend.com/canadian-gdp-canadian-imports-and-exports/)

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/facts/energy-economy/20062

To add to that, I'm also not thrilled about the tripling of tanker traffic in our local waterways. Personally it feels like there are a crap load of tankers and ships in the inlet as is.

I would agree with this point, I can't imagine anyone being excited about more tanker traffic, but hey, we're one country, tow the fucking line for once would you?

Alberta has been the single greatest contributor to equalization payments for as long as I can remember... by screwing Alberta you indirectly screw the people of Quebec that give us wonderful things line maple syrup and trashy french women.

Those are my main concerns, and none of them revolve around spills and the environmental implications. And we haven't even accounted for the middle East's ability to turn up production at the snap of a finger and the effect it would have on the value of Alberta bitumen

Don't worry about the evil genius arabs manipulating the price of oil, they don't want to be giving the shit away either, that's exactly why oil is back around 60-70/BBL.

At the end of the day people have a right to be concerned, but at the same time, if you drive a car, if you use petroleum products, please don't bitch and moan like a typical NIMBY.

There is no historical Canadian example of a catastrophic pipeline/tanker failure that has ruined the land etc. Shit is regulated AF here... how many other countries would send you hate mail for hurting the fishes ears?

[UFO]

Thanks for the detailed response, i's a nice counterpoint. I've probably grossly over simplified how the global oil industry works based on what I read in that article.

The article seems to strongly imply that the oil being extracted in Alberta is less desirable. I guess my concern is that there comes a point where we can saturate the market with this product that it becomes an issue of over supply which further drives it's own value down.

Because our oil is apparently more expensive to extract, more expensive to process and refine, and more expensive to ship and deliver, I wonder how worthwhile the TM expansion will be in the medium and long run. Once again, maybe I have over simplified things.

99% of our oil exports end up in the USA because we don't have any means of getting the oil to global markets, globals markets where a barrel of oil typically cost more
With the current infrastructure, why is this? The existing pipeline brings the oil to the terminal where it can be loaded into tankers and sold to whoever pays their most, no? It's not like there are no terminals and tankers right now.

Better sell it while we can, it makes up a significant chunk of our GDP
Would our oil become less appealing/sellable sooner than oil sourced from else where? So lets say hypothetically the pipeline expansion is completed in 5 years. Its used for a good 5-10 years before whatever market condition comes around and makes our oil unsellable (which you seem to acknowledge is on the horizon). So how does Canada replace this significant driver of GDP at that time?

Once again really appreciate the insider perspective. I don't think I'm NIMBYing, the root of my concern is the economic feasibility/sustainability of the expansion. Especially now that I'm a part owner of the pipeline, and governments typically think and plan in 4 year cycles with little concern or care for consequences 20-30 years down the road. Another part of me wonders if Horgan is playing hardball to hold out for a bigger slice of the pie; the consensus seems to be that BC is bearing a large chunk of the risks associated with the expansion, but our direct payoff is low. What is the $$ that will turn Horgan around, there is always a dollar figure that makes everything right.

[Traum]

As something of a background picture, Germany is planning to stop selling ICE cars (within their country) by 2030, and California by 2040. Before those deadlines hit, it is conceivable that ICE cars will still be very mainstream, and vehicle nowadays can generally last 10 - 15 years in relative ease. With those general assumptions, we can probably say ICE cars will at least remain strong for another 15 - 25 years.

So as far as economic potential is concerned, another 15 - 20 year run seems pretty good to me. Or at least, you can't ignore the practical and economical needs of a popular product for the next 15 - 20 years.

[stewie]

At the end of the day people have a right to be concerned, but at the same time, if you drive a car, if you use petroleum products, please don't bitch and moan like a typical NIMBY.


What about those who bitch and complain for other reasons? Those who actually ARE the NIMBY people.

proximity permit (https://www.kindermorgan.com/content/docs/Proximity_Permit_Brochure.pdf)

Page 3 - ANY ground disturbance within 100ft/30m needs a permit. For those who live on certain streets where the pipe line runs under the sidewalk, have fun applying for a permit every time you want to do some gardening. Permits aren't a free pass. They're only good for x amount of days. If those same people wanted to build a new fence they'll need to get a separate permit. It can be quite the hassle for the average person who's never had to do it before. Living in a house and having your own piece of land but being told you can't do anything without their permission first. 30m in each direction from the pipe. It affects quite a few people. Even if you're not on the same block you still need their permission just because you may be in the vicinity.

There's people who use petroleum products who bitch but the others who are directly impacted and bitch are the ones I feel sorry for.

[jasonturbo]

Disclaimer(s)

- I try to be as fair and accurate as possible in these responses.
- I don't believe that polluting the earth (Burning fossil fuels) is a good thing.
- There is a tremendous amount of "fake news" around pipelines, especially this project.




With the current infrastructure, why is this? The existing pipeline brings the oil to the terminal where it can be loaded into tankers and sold to whoever pays their most, no? It's not like there are no terminals and tankers right now.

The oil is actually sold many months in advance, generally if you are a downstream customer (Refiner) you are looking to secure a steady supply of crude to feed your facility, the contracts for these agreements generally distribute the financial risk associated with increase/decrease in "market" oil prices by creating a contract with certain conditions or limits to pricing. So while Oil might be @ 60$/BBL today, a contract that was signed 18 months ago might be structured as follows:

36 Month Agreeement
300KBBL/Day @ 55.00/BBL
Additional BBL's @ Market Price

Even though the price of 55$/BBL 18 months ago was say 5$/BBL greater than market price, it fixes the price so that if oil increase to say 70$/BBL after 24 months the impact to the refiner is minimal, at the same time, if oil drops to say 45$/BBL, the impact to the producer is minimal. By creating fixed price contracts it provides both businesses with certainty that alleviates financial risks etc.

Grossly simplified, but that's how it works.

FYI of the last 12 ships @ the KMC terminal, 5 inbound shipments of aviation fuel from Long Beach CA, 7 outbound shipments of crude to California.

Would our oil become less appealing/sellable sooner than oil sourced from else where? So lets say hypothetically the pipeline expansion is completed in 5 years. Its used for a good 5-10 years before whatever market condition comes around and makes our oil unsellable (which you seem to acknowledge is on the horizon). So how does Canada replace this significant driver of GDP at that time?

https://cdn1.investingdaily.com/res/images/2017/06/World-Oil-Demand-e1497481237310.png

We're presently using almost 100M BBL/day globally, that kind of demand is going to take a very very long time to dry up.

Don't worry about how our oil compares to oil sourced elsewhere, we can upgrade/process it as needed before shipping to satisfy the requirements of the customer. Besides, there are other important factors that must be considered - Transport costs, political tensions, trade agreements etc.

You have to remember that oil is bought and sold directly (for the most part) between producers and refiners, though many of them are integrated (IE: Suncor produces and ships the oil down to the Suncor "Petro Canada" refinery etc) it's not like the gov of Canada sells the oil to the Gov of Korea etc... it's all B2B.

There is something to be said for diversifying out economy so that we don't "depend" on the contribution made by O&G, but that process takes time, our economy needs to evolve organically, and I would suggest that the 2% Oil Sands GDP contribution does not hinder the rest of the economy nearly as much as the 14% Real Estate, Renting, and Leasing sector.

RE not exportable and therefore does not generate real wealth for Canadians, it's just more debt for Canadians. Tragically this is the single biggest sector of our GDP, and the real reason why Canada will endure long term economic heart ache. People blame the lucrative careers associated with oil and gas for preventing smart kids from entering advanced/futuristic job markets that will contribute to long term economic prosperity, I would argue that the data tells us those kids are more likely to end up in Real Estate, Renting, and Leasing.

Once again really appreciate the insider perspective. I don't think I'm NIMBYing, the root of my concern is the economic feasibility/sustainability of the expansion. Especially now that I'm a part owner of the pipeline, and governments typically think and plan in 4 year cycles with little concern or care for consequences 20-30 years down the road. Another part of me wonders if Horgan is playing hardball to hold out for a bigger slice of the pie; the consensus seems to be that BC is bearing a large chunk of the risks associated with the expansion, but our direct payoff is low. What is the $$ that will turn Horgan around, there is always a dollar figure that makes everything right.

Horgan is politicizing the issue, polls unanimously suggest that the majority of BC supports the project. You also have to remember that Horgan must appease the Greens to stay in power.

Until "green" energy become more feasible (AKA companies can make money off it) we will continue to use a lot of oil.

As something of a background picture, Germany is planning to stop selling ICE cars (within their country) by 2030, and California by 2040. Before those deadlines hit, it is conceivable that ICE cars will still be very mainstream, and vehicle nowadays can generally last 10 - 15 years in relative ease. With those general assumptions, we can probably say ICE cars will at least remain strong for another 15 - 25 years.

So as far as economic potential is concerned, another 15 - 20 year run seems pretty good to me. Or at least, you can't ignore the practical and economical needs of a popular product for the next 15 - 20 years.

Those are deadlines supported by the current governments, there is a lot of time for policy change to take place before those deadlines arrive.

IMO we have at least another 20-30 years before our demand for oil really drops off, again Oil needs to get more expensive before "green" energy is the more attractive option. You think oil is expensive? Imagine how expensive electricity will be when oil is outlawed and everything that used to burn hydrocarbons to generate electricity must buy electricity. I used to work for one of the major Canadian energy companies in the renewable energy group, we could barely make money on wind farms w/ government subsidies, look at what people in Ontario are paying for electricity due the govt's retarded pursuit of green energy.

In the long term the world will move away from petroleum products just a we've moved away from coal fired power generation.

Having said all that, I do think we will see a major shift over the next 10-15 years in which traditional ICE vehicles lose a tremendous amount of market share to hybrids and EV's.. though I would suggest it will mostly be super-efficient hybrids, less so EV's.

The future will suck for vehicle enthusiasts, roads too busy, cars too boring, too much traffic etc... mass transit will be more popular than ever.

What about those who bitch and complain for other reasons? Those who actually ARE the NIMBY people.

proximity permit (https://www.kindermorgan.com/content/docs/Proximity_Permit_Brochure.pdf)

Page 3 - ANY ground disturbance within 100ft/30m needs a permit. For those who live on certain streets where the pipe line runs under the sidewalk, have fun applying for a permit every time you want to do some gardening. Permits aren't a free pass. They're only good for x amount of days. If those same people wanted to build a new fence they'll need to get a separate permit. It can be quite the hassle for the average person who's never had to do it before. Living in a house and having your own piece of land but being told you can't do anything without their permission first. 30m in each direction from the pipe. It affects quite a few people. Even if you're not on the same block you still need their permission just because you may be in the vicinity.

There's people who use petroleum products who bitch but the others who are directly impacted and bitch are the ones I feel sorry for.

The original Transmountain was built in the 1950's, I would suggest that NONE of the current residents owned homes in the area before the line was built. You moved there knowing there was a giant terminal and then you have the audacity to complain about it?

The land owners directly affected by the new pipeline routing are being COMPENSATED VERY WELL by KMC. I would suggest to you that any of the people bitching are the ones that live a block way from the ROW that didn't get paid.

If there is one thing I've learned about this business it's that everyone bitches and moans until you give them ENOUGH money, then they shut up and never return.

[whitev70r]

To me, it's kind of simple, either pipeline or rail ... oil is going to be moved either way. And I do care about the environment. So what is the safer and more efficient option out of the two? Given that spills, rail accidents are bound to happen? Pipeline.

Stop wasting time and money, the protest groups are small/tiny. Get on with building the thing and implement a good plan to know when a leak/spill happens asap, contain it - shut down portions affected by leak, and have a good effective recovery plan.

[stewie]

The original Transmountain was built in the 1950's, I would suggest that NONE of the current residents owned homes in the area before the line was built. You moved there knowing there was a giant terminal and then you have the audacity to complain about it?

The land owners directly affected by the new pipeline routing are being COMPENSATED VERY WELL by KMC. I would suggest to you that any of the people bitching are the ones that live a block way from the ROW that didn't get paid.

If there is one thing I've learned about this business it's that everyone bitches and moans until you give them ENOUGH money, then they shut up and never return.


Correct, it was built in the 50's. In Burnaby I know EVERY street jet fuel pipelines run on, not just KM. These aren't basic generic maps you can google. These are maps given to me from them directly. I know the general age of certain houses on those routes just by knowing when the other infrastructure was built and installed and there's plenty of houses that surpass the 50's and have seniors tell me they've lived there all their life or now adults who were handed down the house by their parents. If you really get bored the Burnaby website has a section where you can view overhead aerial photos and photos of streets from well before the 50's with the houses on them. You can see the spots before KM came in and after.


Do you know what the compensation is for the homeowner? It's a one time lump sum payment. If you don't know I'll ask them next time I talk to them which will be within the next 24 hours probably. Buying a house beside a terminal is one thing. Buying a house on a small side street not being told theirs a pipeline running across the street and now half your yard can only be worked on with their permission is another. I don't know if a realtor would happen to even know the locations or distances to inform someone buying. It's just one small detail though. Shouldn't be to much of a problem.

[jasonturbo]

Correct, it was built in the 50's. In Burnaby I know EVERY street jet fuel pipelines run on, not just KM. These aren't basic generic maps you can google. These are maps given to me from them directly. I know the general age of certain houses on those routes just by knowing when the other infrastructure was built and installed and there's plenty of houses that surpass the 50's and have seniors tell me they've lived there all their life or now adults who were handed down the house by their parents. If you really get bored the Burnaby website has a section where you can view overhead aerial photos and photos of streets from well before the 50's with the houses on them. You can see the spots before KM came in and after.


Do you know what the compensation is for the homeowner? It's a one time lump sum payment. If you don't know I'll ask them next time I talk to them which will be within the next 24 hours probably. Buying a house beside a terminal is one thing. Buying a house on a small side street not being told theirs a pipeline running across the street and now half your yard can only be worked on with their permission is another. I don't know if a realtor would happen to even know the locations or distances to inform someone buying. It's just one small detail though. Shouldn't be to much of a problem.

Very unlikely anyone bought their home before the terminal was built, do the math:

Terminal construction start date was 1951, if someone bough at house in 1950 at the age of 18 they would be 85 years old today, that exceeds the topically life expectancy. Plus they've spent many years being exposed to "highly toxic" terminal air so they probably died of rare cancers 30 years ago etc.

The compensation for each homeowners is confidential, I know what the overall budget it and I know the total number of parties being compensated.

What's the point in discussing the encroachment requirements of KMC while ignoring the encroachment requirements of Fortis/City of Burnaby etc? They are all fairly typical, they don't want homeowners driving fenceposts into their infrastructure. There is nothing stopping a potential homeowner from contacting one-call to determine what is buried on/around property they are looking to buy.

Though I'm not sure why you bring the jet fuel line up, with respect to the jet fuel line, KMC can't wait for the YVR to get their new jet fuel terminal/pipeline sorted out so they can decommission it.

I'm not going to keep responding to you, I get it, you work for the city of Burnaby and you don't want the pipeline to go through. :nyan:

[underscore]

As something of a background picture, Germany is planning to stop selling ICE cars (within their country) by 2030, and California by 2040.

Do they have plans to have the infrastructure needed to support that? I have a feeling their electrical grids will end up pushed to the limit and they'll end up having to abandon this plan.

[stewie]

Very unlikely anyone bought their home before the terminal was built, do the math:

Terminal construction start date was 1951, if someone bough at house in 1950 at the age of 18 they would be 85 years old today, that exceeds the topically life expectancy. Plus they've spent many years being exposed to "highly toxic" terminal air so they probably died of rare cancers 30 years ago etc.

The compensation for each homeowners is confidential, I know what the overall budget it and I know the total number of parties being compensated.

What's the point in discussing the encroachment requirements of KMC while ignoring the encroachment requirements of Fortis/City of Burnaby etc? They are all fairly typical, they don't want homeowners driving fenceposts into their infrastructure. There is nothing stopping a potential homeowner from contacting one-call to determine what is buried on/around property they are looking to buy.

Though I'm not sure why you bring the jet fuel line up, with respect to the jet fuel line, KMC can't wait for the YVR to get their new jet fuel terminal/pipeline sorted out so they can decommission it.

I'm not going to keep responding to you, I get it, you work for the city of Burnaby and you don't want the pipeline to go through. :nyan:


Hand me down homes. Their parents bought, they got old and passed the house to the kids.

The difference with notifying them on encroachment from KMC and Fortis etc is the amount of the fine and severity of it. And let's be honest here. How many people actually even know about one-call? It's got commercials on the radio and tv but out of everyone I know maybe 90% of them have done work without even knowing what it is. Home owners/contractors/plumbing companies etc. How many people on here have ever even thought to make a call to them?

When I'm saying jet fuel pipeline I'm speaking of any and all oil pipelines running under the ground whether it's KMC/Parkland etc. affecting new and old existing home owners.

I may work for Burnaby but I could give 2 shits about the pipeline now. I've stated my concerns before. If you know the overall budget and amount of parties being compensated is it safe to assume that you have some sort of involvement in it? If so doesn't that make us both seem a bit biased towards our replies to everyone?




If you don't want to respond to me that's fine. You voice what you have to say and I'll voice what I have to say. If you want to stomp your feet and walk away when I don't agree with your views then so be it.

[Traum]

Do they have plans to have the infrastructure needed to support that? I have a feeling their electrical grids will end up pushed to the limit and they'll end up having to abandon this plan.
When it is ze Germans, I wouldn't be too concerned. They may or may not hit the mark, but they'll always come close. The have both the smarts and the discipline to execute. In fact, I remember reading that over this past Christmas, they've had an overabundance of electricity available because of their extensive solar and wind energy farms.

France has also announced similar measures to wean themselves off ICEs -- stopping all ICE sales by 2040 -- but I wouldn't trust them to be able to pull it off like their northeastern neighbour can. They do have an extra 10 years compared to Germany, so we'll see how they do. But when it comes to political will and capabilities, I'd always trust Germany over France any day of the week.

And then there is Kalifornia... What am I even going to say? Are they still having running brown outs in the summer now? Are their current power plants even kept up with good maintenance? Undoubtedly, California can be very forwarding thinking and progressive in a lot of things, but I am really not sure how they can pull this no ICE car thing off...
:badpokerface:

[jasonturbo]

When it is ze Germans, I wouldn't be too concerned. They may or may not hit the mark, but they'll always come close. The have both the smarts and the discipline to execute. In fact, I remember reading that over this past Christmas, they've had an overabundance of electricity available because of their extensive solar and wind energy farms.


Germany only has an abundance of power thanks to traditional coal burning, renewable only account for 1/3 of the energy... and this was made possible by incredible subsidies, hence the high cost of electricity passed on to the consumer.

Price by kWh in USD:

Germany 0.35
United Kingdom 0.22
United States 0.08 - 0.17 (.16 California)
Canada 0.06 - 0.15 (.15 Ontario)

Germany?s High-Priced Renewable Energy Revolution | Fortune (http://fortune.com/2017/03/14/germany-renewable-clean-energy-solar/)

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffortunedotcom.files.wordpr ess.com%2F2017%2F03%2Fger_energy_breakdown.png&w=700&q=85

[Traum]

Germany only has an abundance of power thanks to traditional coal burning, renewable only account for 1/3 of the energy... and this was made possible by incredible subsidies, hence the high cost of electricity passed on to the consumer.

Price by kWh in USD:

Germany 0.35
United Kingdom 0.22
United States 0.08 - 0.17 (.16 California)
Canada 0.06 - 0.15 (.15 Ontario)

Germany?s High-Priced Renewable Energy Revolution | Fortune (http://fortune.com/2017/03/14/germany-renewable-clean-energy-solar/)

IMO, having 1/3 of its electrical power needs coming from renewable sources at this point in time is nothing short of amazing. Yes, the (financial) costs are high, but in terms of being able to meet and deliver on the usage needs, it is absolutely amazing. Especially when you look at how the proportion of nuclear energy just plunges down since the mid-2000's.

Merkel didn't announced the phasing out of nuclear power plants until after the Fukushima disaster (2011), but the Germans already had enough foresight to start weaning themselves off nuclear before that. They had a vision; they acted on it, and they are making sure it will happen. That's how I view the Germans.

[DragonChi]

A high principle cost for renewables, and there is maintenance costs as well. I am hopeful that the prices will have a nice return in 10 years. Much like bchydro costs in the 90s and early 2000s.

[underscore]

When it is ze Germans, I wouldn't be too concerned. They may or may not hit the mark, but they'll always come close. The have both the smarts and the discipline to execute.

Looking at that chart they have fearmongering idiots in charge. They may hit the mark, but they're aiming at the wrong one.

Merkel didn't announced the phasing out of nuclear power plants until after the Fukushima disaster (2011), but the Germans already had enough foresight to start weaning themselves off nuclear before that. They had a vision; they acted on it, and they are making sure it will happen. That's how I view the Germans.

Why the hell are they decreasing nuclear? It's the best out of all of their options. They should be ramping that up to decrease their coal usage. What kind of plan is reducing a potent, safe option while remaining almost entirely dependent on fucking coal?

[jasonturbo]

Why the hell are they decreasing nuclear? It's the best out of all of their options. They should be ramping that up to decrease their coal usage. What kind of plan is reducing a potent, safe option while remaining almost entirely dependent on fucking coal?

Fukushima.

After the melt down a number of countries decided the consequence of failure associated with nuclear power generation was too high... regardless of the probability of failure.

[vitaminG]

IMO, having 1/3 of its electrical power needs coming from renewable sources at this point in time is nothing short of amazing. Yes, the (financial) costs are high, but in terms of being able to meet and deliver on the usage needs, it is absolutely amazing. Especially when you look at how the proportion of nuclear energy just plunges down since the mid-2000's.

Merkel didn't announced the phasing out of nuclear power plants until after the Fukushima disaster (2011), but the Germans already had enough foresight to start weaning themselves off nuclear before that. They had a vision; they acted on it, and they are making sure it will happen. That's how I view the Germans.

whats so amazing about it? i mean theyre decreasing their carbon but at what cost? is it really the best use of the countries limited resources to piss away that much money for feel good? is it going to make any real impact on global c02 emmisions?

[RRxtar]

i heard a quote one time on the subject, i wish i could remember it.

in effect it basically said "we could dump a trillio dollar into undeveloped technology now and make a very small change. or we could not spend/waste that money now, and wait until the technology is completely there and make an enormous change for much less cost in 20 years"

the idea being that spending fuck tons of money on completely inefficient and enormously subsidized 'green' energy now isn't getting us anywhere, and we could instead be benefiting on the high usage of the current energy (oil and gas are a huge contributor to canada's economy, and therefor, canadians benefit greatly from it). instead, wait the 20 or so years for the technology to get there, and then invest some of the money earned between now and then into it and make a real impact. the idea being in 50 years, we will be in the same place either way, why not take advantage of the economical benefits of oil now.

[welfare]

i heard a quote one time on the subject, i wish i could remember it.

in effect it basically said "we could dump a trillio dollar into undeveloped technology now and make a very small change. or we could not spend/waste that money now, and wait until the technology is completely there and make an enormous change for much less cost in 20 years"

the idea being that spending fuck tons of money on completely inefficient and enormously subsidized 'green' energy now isn't getting us anywhere, and we could instead be benefiting on the high usage of the current energy (oil and gas are a huge contributor to canada's economy, and therefor, canadians benefit greatly from it). instead, wait the 20 or so years for the technology to get there, and then invest some of the money earned between now and then into it and make a real impact. the idea being in 50 years, we will be in the same place either way, why not take advantage of the economical benefits of oil now.

Maybe we won't need to reduce greenhouse gases if we recycle them.
This just seems genius

Two new ways to turn ?garbage? carbon dioxide into fuel | Science | AAAS (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/two-new-ways-turn-garbage-carbon-dioxide-fuel)
“Those are very good results,” and considered good enough for a commercial product, says Fan Shi, a chemist at the National Energy Technology Laboratory in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Dioxide Materials is not alone in trying to commercialize the process: Already, chemical giant BASF has announced plans to produce liquid methanol fuel using a similar method. And a German company called Sunfire announced in May that it’s producing “blue crude,” a synthetic diesel fuel from CO2 and water using a high-temperature process.

[twitchyzero]

what magic technology will we have in 20 years that we don't have now?
and usually those estimations are rather optimistic...whatever we aim to have in 20 years may not come until 35 years

by then we'll be crowded with 3 billion more people, and god knows how many more will get a taste of first world living with a vehicle, fly to places for vacation, etc....the existing damage are already classified irreversibly (in the scale of human existence) and at an exponential rate...we simply can't wait around another generation or two hoping for more Einsteins

prices will not drastically come down if we don't start working towards it

[Jmac]

i heard a quote one time on the subject, i wish i could remember it.

in effect it basically said "we could dump a trillio dollar into undeveloped technology now and make a very small change. or we could not spend/waste that money now, and wait until the technology is completely there and make an enormous change for much less cost in 20 years"

the idea being that spending fuck tons of money on completely inefficient and enormously subsidized 'green' energy now isn't getting us anywhere, and we could instead be benefiting on the high usage of the current energy (oil and gas are a huge contributor to canada's economy, and therefor, canadians benefit greatly from it). instead, wait the 20 or so years for the technology to get there, and then invest some of the money earned between now and then into it and make a real impact. the idea being in 50 years, we will be in the same place either way, why not take advantage of the economical benefits of oil now.
You can make tremendous impacts for little capital costs by making existing equipment more efficient. Look at the impact BC Hydro’s Demand Side Management program has had, for example, which is a very low cost relative to capital projects for green tech. Stricter legislation on emissions (vehicle, industrial), improved fuel efficiency standards legislation, incentivize selecting green tech when replacing equipment and for new builds, etc.

Also, 20 years by current estimates is way too fucking late.

[SkinnyPupp]

We need more pipelines! (http://calgaryherald.com/news/national/estimated-230000-gallons-of-oil-spilled-after-alberta-train-derails-in-iowa/wcm/70a5ebf0-0c6f-4288-858b-bfaec9103fdd) SwiftRage

[originalhypa]

We need more pipelines! (http://calgaryherald.com/news/national/estimated-230000-gallons-of-oil-spilled-after-alberta-train-derails-in-iowa/wcm/70a5ebf0-0c6f-4288-858b-bfaec9103fdd) SwiftRage

As long as we love our cars, we will need more pipelines.

The funny thing about this spill is that it's probably about the same amount spilled by Lem's Auto over the last 20 years. Btw, they're the largest land owner in the shitty 10 block by 9 block town that is Doon, Iowa.

https://cdn.carbase.com/assets/lemsautorecycledf005/212/assets/images/aireial-shot-of-lems.png

[jasonturbo]

Journalism...

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/06/26/trans-mountain-sale-kinder-morgan-report_a_23468557/

The project has an estimated $7.4 billion price tag, of which Kinder Morgan says it has already spent about $1 billion. But the IEEFA report estimates that the company has only put about $600 million into the project so far. It estimates the company will make a 637-per-cent gain on the $4.5-billion sale.

In this case the author is seemingly unaware that the 4.5B sale of the Trans Mountain "project" included 1.1B for the expansion project and 3.4B for the existing pipeline/stations/terminals.

Additionally, I can absolutely confirm that KMC has spent over 1B on the project as of March 2018, this was communicated internally back in April of 2018.

Consider that when Energy East was abandoned by Transcanada it was nowhere near as far along as TMEP (Approved by NEB, 8 months into construction) and yet Transcanada had already spent 1B.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/10/05/news/transcanada-terminates-energy-east-pipeline-project

Girling said the decision would cost his company $1 billion due to the investments it has already made in the project. The company said it wasn't expecting to recover any of its losses from any third parties since it failed to get a regulatory decision on the project.

When you factor in the opportunity costs KMC absolutely lost money selling the TMEP to the feds.

[Nlkko]

Most journalist are dumb as fuck. Can't get their info right let alone discounting potential cash flows of the project.

Trudeau made a great decision buying the pipeline but drew heat because most people turn blue when they read "taxpayers' dollars" and their brain turned into mush.

[Everymans]

Most journalist are dumb as fuck. Can't get their info right let alone discounting potential cash flows of the project.

Trudeau made a great decision buying the pipeline but drew heat because most people turn blue when they read "taxpayers' dollars" and their brain turned into mush.
It is quite a risky investment from any stand point, especially if you consider the factors of a spill. It should also be considered that Kinder morgan isn't making much money in canada right now because of the price of oil being too low for the oil sands to be a major money generator like it was when oil was 100$ a barrel. This is the main reason why they're shipping dilbit through it instead of refined product, the only profits that could possibly be generated from it is if we shipped the lowest grade product possible. So at this point, we can't go any further down in price for our product or downgrade it to a lesser product to make some cash. so if something signifigant were to happen like a major spill or a major fall in oil price this entire pipeline will be a huge money pit for the taxpayers. Kinder morgan seen that and over sold the benefits of this project so we would go all in on it. now that we have, kinder morgan doesn't stand to lose anything from it... Genius plan from the makers of enron.

And in an interesting twist, the price of oil has jumped yet the oil sands are shutting down even though we will buy the pipeline. How long until we realize this economic strategy has more flaws than benefits? especially in the long run considering the state of the environment and our so called goals to protect it.

And as far as your immature blanket statement about journalists being dumb as fuck, maybe I can ask you something simple. What have you done to impact your community in the way of exposing essential information? Sure, there's some dumb fuck journalists out there, but there's a helluva lot of good ones that get way too much flack for exposing FACTS in this day and age.

[Nlkko]

I have 0 interest in fighting you. Exposing info isn't my job so I don't know why you are riding me. That's journalism's job. They saw a "headline" opportunity that the hoi polloi will go up in arms and they went for it.

Instead of sitting here blah blah NIMBY, take out a pen and paper or whip out Excel, make a bunch of assumptions and do a primitive DCF. It's not hard. Assume the pipeline don't go up in flame in the next 10-20 years, it's a great investment. Real asset generating CFs.

Trudeau made a very brave (knowing it is going to be controversial) decision but will very likely benefits Canada as a whole in the long term. This pipeline has been a head-scratcher in the investment community for years, now it is finally happening. We have oil. Oil is valuable. Let's get it out.

I really don't care for your political leaning. It's an economic decision, not a political one. Instead of get triggered for no reason, educate yourself.

Yeah, most journalists are dumb as fuck. Have you read the papers or watch the news lately?

[originalhypa]

^
While I don't agree that most journalists are dumb as fuck. I do agree that the pipeline was a brave decision (albeit made by a pussy), and that it was an economic decision.

[Hondaracer]

Somewhat unrelated but I’ve mentioned this to a few people lately

I live approx 10 minute walk from Wall Street in East Van, for those unfamiliar Wall Street has numerous parks that look out over the north shore.

In the last 2 years of living here I’ve probably looked up at grouse mountain, I dunno, 200 times? I’ve only ever seen the wind turbine up there spinning ONCE..

[noclue]

I thought that wind turbine was a tourist attraction instead of a real generator

[Digitalis]

Costs more money to maintain the fuckers than any energy actually generated by them. Could say the same thing about anything Leed for that matter. Costs more and does very little.
Somewhat unrelated but I’ve mentioned this to a few people lately

I live approx 10 minute walk from Wall Street in East Van, for those unfamiliar Wall Street has numerous parks that look out over the north shore.

In the last 2 years of living here I’ve probably looked up at grouse mountain, I dunno, 200 times? I’ve only ever seen the wind turbine up there spinning ONCE..

[Hondaracer]

it has a viewing platform which looks cool btw, but yea.. i remember the original plans being like "it's going to power grouse!" and its probably now along the lines of what Digitalis said

From BIV.com

The “grossest distortion of green data” award still goes to Grouse Mountain's Eye of the Wind turbine. It was narrowly approved in 2008 by District of North Vancouver council on the promise that it had partnered with BC Hydro to be a “beacon of sustainability” and to produce enough electricity to power 400 homes. When it was turned on in 2010, B.C.'s minister of energy, Bill Bennett, called it “Vancouver's first commercially viable wind turbine.” He's right. Its viewing station brings in around $750,000 a year. But it actually produces power for about 12 homes because the wind rarely blows hard enough to turn the giant turbines. Grouse Mountain refuses to release actual data. According to Petrie, it will be lucky to produce enough electricity in 25 years to make up for the energy embodied in its manufacture and installation.

[jasonturbo]

I have a LOT of experience w/ wind turbine power generation, normally we gather/analyze 5-10 years of wind data for a specific location before making the determination that the location in question is suitable for a profit-generating wind turbine power generation project.

The installation of a single wind turbine at the edge of Grouse Mountain was not intended to generate power, it was to generate an image.

RE: Everymans

You're post is polluted with misinformation, maybe you don't understand what a "fact" is?

A) Oil sands remain very profitable, take a good look @ Suncor's stock price and YoY earnings per share. (They are the single biggest oilsands producer) Yes a number of proposed "mega projects" have been postponed, this is because cash flow @ most major oil producers was greatly reduced during the oil glut, you don't start a 10B project while losing billions of dollars each quarter/year. As the price of oil stabilizes more and more projects will once again move ahead, it's a long term/stable supply of oil, there is a demand for it.

B) The price of oil has nothing to do with the price to transport oil, it doesn't matter if oil is $1/BBL or $100/BBL, the price to move it down the pipeline is fixed by long term service agreements typically 10-25 years in length.

C) Kinder Morgan Canada earnings are not impacted by low prices, they are impacted by low shipping volumes, and they have been operating at maximum capacity for decades.

D) The Trans Mountain pipeline ships both crude and refined fuel products, if there was foreign demand for finished/refined products we would export those products, the demand simply isn't there. You refer to dilbit as though there is no upgrading that takes place before the crude is shipped, this is simply not correct.

E) Refineries are generally built in locations to service immediate areas, consider the image below that shows the typical breakdown of a barrel of oil:

http://www.gravmag.com/oil13k.gif

Understand that by shipping the product as crude you only need ONE pipeline, that means crude can get from Fort Mac to Vancouver in ONE pipeline, it then arrives here and can be refined into a MANY products that are then shipped out short distances to the immediate area using transport trucks. (IE: Gasoline from Chevron in Burnaby to a Chevron store in White Rock)

If you break that barrel down at the location it is initially produced (IE: Fort Mac) you can no longer move the collection of products that make up a barrel down a single pipeline as the operating conditions and equipment for say gasoline can't be used to move asphalt, coke, liquified gasses etc.

If you were to refine products in Canada before exporting you would need a dozen unique tankers heading to a dozen unique customers on the other side of the planet. Logistically it simply doesn't work.

[noclue]

It's always good when someone with industry expertise comes in and owns the misinformed.

[twitchyzero]

more wasteful shit have been built numerous times around here but I find it hard to believe they would install a wind turbine without doing some fairly basic research...?

[Jmac]

Costs more money to maintain the fuckers than any energy actually generated by them. Could say the same thing about anything Leed for that matter. Costs more and does very little.
The issue with LEED is that you basically have two choices: you can either have your building virtually modeled (which, from my understanding, is extremely rare), or you use the points-based prescription model.

https://mcrconstruction.com/content/images/2016/10/LEED_checklist_lg.jpg

It becomes more about $/point, especially if you're required to meet a certain certification level like PSOs have to, rather than actual GHG reductions, energy performance, or ROI.

[DragonChi]

I didn't know LEED was applied to green energy production projects. Typically they're for buildings and facilities.

[jasonturbo]

Good read on the negotiating that took place between KMC and the Feds

https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/how-a-recalcitrant-b-c-government-forced-kinder-morgan-to-sell-trans-mountain-to-ottawa


CALGARY – The Canadian federal government will end up spending much less than the initially reported $4.5-billion price to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline system and expansion project from Kinder Morgan Inc., once the company pays the government capital gains taxes.

Documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission by pipeline giant Kinder Morgan show the company considers the net purchase price for the pipeline to be $4.175 billion because it needs to pay Ottawa $325 million in capital gains taxes.

That’s 7 per cent less than the $4.5 billion price Finance Minister Bill Morneau announced on May 29 to purchase the Trans Mountain pipeline system and the delayed expansion project from the Houston-based company.

At the time, Kinder Morgan CEO Steve Kean said during a conference call that the agreement marked “a great day not only for our company but also for Canada.”

The call offered few details on how the deal between the two sides came together but the company’s SEC filings show a drawn-out negotiation in which Kinder Morgan initially asked for $6.5 billion for the 300,000 barrels per day pipeline and the 590,000-bpd expansion connecting landlocked Alberta to tidewater.

The negotiations began April 8 when Kinder Morgan announced it would suspend all non-essential spending on the Trans Mountain expansion project. It delivered the federal government an ultimatum at that time: provide operational and financial assurances or the company would walk away.

Morneau had both privately and publicly offered to indemnify the company if its $7.4-billion expansion project encountered delays as a result of B.C. Premier John Horgan’s opposition to the project.

Eventually, however, the SEC documents show that Morneau countered the company’s $6.5-billion ask with a $3.85 billion offer on May 22 – just a week before Kinder Morgan’s end-of-May deadline.

Kinder Morgan declined the offer during a prolonged back-and-forth negotiation the next day, May 23.

“The board decided that a C$4.5 billion pre-tax valuation, which when considered together with the financial analysis of the retained business prepared by TD Securities and anticipated capital gains taxes… was the lowest price at which the board would recommend a transaction,” the filing stated.

It was at that point Kinder Morgan told the federal government’s negotiation team that it anticipated a $325 million capital gains tax bill, so it’s lowest acceptable net purchase price was $4.175 billion.

Many good changes coming (IMO anyway), lots of work that was going to be awarded to non-union contractors will now be awarded to the building trades and the direct ties between the major construction contractor and the engineering firm have been severed and a new EPC brought in.

[vitaminG]

What a fucking joke. It's officially impossible to do business in Canada. Trudeau better get his shit together with nafta and sort this out or we are fucked for anyone wanting to invest here

Liberals 'absolutely committed' to Trans Mountain after Federal Court of Appeal quashes construction approvals (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tas...eals-1.4804495)

[68style]

The funny thing is, the native bands fighting it aren't even in the way of the pipeline... just adjacent to it... all the ones in the way of the pipeline are happy to take millions of dollars in payments, some of those bands are as little as 50 people in size it's huge money for them.

The ones adjacent to it are fighting for the "environment"................. because they're not getting paid lol

[Traum]

Is the Squamish Nation's concerns not legitimate though? A twined pipeline would bring dramatically increased marine traffic traversing the waters immediately next to their reserves. In another news article that I've read, I think the numbers are expected to go up from less than 10 ships a day to over 30. The increased traffic means increased risks of spillage among other things, and the federal governments environmental assessment has failed to account for that.

You can make a cynical statement about these natives just wanting in on a piece of the money pie. But at the end of the day, there was a procedure and consultation process to follow, and the Trudeau / Lib government has dropped the ball on it quite badly.

IMO, the Trudeau / Lib gov has no one but themselves to blame for the sticky situation that they are now finding themselves in. To assign or divert the majority of blame on anyone else is inappropriate.

[GabAlmighty]

The minority fuck it up for the majority...

[68style]

Re: the increased ship traffic, it seems like a lot when you consider how many oil specific tankers are coming in... yes then it’s a 200% increase... but in the grand total of ships and tankers coming in? Drop in the bucket. They never tell those statistics, so no the effect is extremely minimal in my mind if not totally inconsequential.

You should go to a talk by the minister in charge of DFO / formerly of Environment Canada who resides in north van... the government did their research on this, you’re reading too many headlines. Contrary to popular belief and a perhaps biased hatred of Trudeau, the government is very responsible... much moreso than any private corporation ever will be.

[GS8]

Natives complaining about the environment?

Most of the the reservations I've driven through could be mistaken for Iraq. I question how environmentally conscious they truly are.

[Slifer]

Lol.. this country is doomed..

[GabAlmighty]

Natives complaining about the environment?

Most of the the reservations I've driven through could be mistaken for Iraq. I question how environmentally conscious they truly are.

They aren't. At all. The biggest hypocrites you'll meet.

[jasonturbo]

There is certainly some validity to the decision from the Federal Court of Appeal.

In the Phase III consultation (Post NEB assessment and approval from the Governor in Council) the Project could be viewed as being dismissive of claims put forward by indigenous people.

However, if you can appreciate this, the indigenous people tend to make broad claims like "This project will negatively affect my traditional land use and livelihood" without actually quantifying that claim. KMC is basically forced to dismiss claims of this nature as there is really no design/construction/operation measures that could be used to suitably address these types of concerns, the concerns are so broad that they can only be addressed through an outright cancellation of the Project... which is the obvious objective of the Indigenous people claiming there was insufficent consultation.

Then there is the fact that virtually every single aboriginal group/community along the ROW was compensated and supports the project... whereas every single aboriginal group/community off the ROW was not compensate and does not support the project.

This is a cautionary tale for all types of resource development - So long as Trudeau continues to provide seemingly unlimited powers to the indigenous people all resource development projects will encounter tremendous resistance, supported by a potentially endless consultation process.

[Nlkko]

Hey let's stay poor together we can live off the land and bike around.

[welfare]

Looks like Notley has pulled Alberta out of the climate plan now.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/08/30/news/alberta-pulls-out-canadas-climate-plan

[welfare]

Lol.. this country is doomed..

Private Member's Bill C-262 (42-1) - Third Reading - United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act - Parliament of Canada (http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-262/third-reading)

[twitchyzero]

such cock block
i take glee in seeing more orcas carry their stillborn for days
our channels need more penetrating noise pollution
so China can produce more plastic and North Korea can build more nukes SeemsGood

[Hondaracer]

politicians are so fucked.

You bought the fucking pipeline, make it fucking happen, jesus christ.

[CharlesInCharge]

Seeing a many native american facebook profiles, I can say this ethnicity of people dont want to risk their ancestral lands and see through the fake "american dream" that our system is.

This mostly comes down to race.. poor settlers will gladly play along as long as they can pay their rat race mortgages and ever lowering standard of living.

[Traum]

Looks like Notley has pulled Alberta out of the climate plan now.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/08/30/news/alberta-pulls-out-canadas-climate-plan
Seems to me like a child is throwing a temper tantrum after a supervising adult takes her toy away...

[welfare]

Seems to me like a child is throwing a temper tantrum after a supervising adult takes her toy away...

Seems to me that our country is going down the shitter right quick.
Anticipate more good news on the NAFTA front tomorrow as well :alonehappy:

[Traum]

Anticipate more good news on the NAFTA front tomorrow as well :alonehappy:
I'm expecting us to get shafted with a shxtty deal, esp with the dairy situation.

Gonna have to watch and make sure I am still buying Canadian milk in the future, even if they are more $$$. But it is really the various dairy products that we have to watch out for since the manufacturer of those products won't tell you were they source their ingridients. If they can replace Canadian milk with the cheap US equivalent, you bet they're gonna do that.
:pokerface:

[Tapioca]

This is a cautionary tale for all types of resource development - So long as Trudeau continues to provide seemingly unlimited powers to the indigenous people all resource development projects will encounter tremendous resistance, supported by a potentially endless consultation process.

The decision has nothing to do with the federal government giving "unlimited powers" to Indigenous groups. The duty to consult Indigenous groups has been defined in multiple court decisions over the last 10-15 years. Governments have no choice but to "consult" with First Nations under section 35 of the Charter.

If the next government is a Conservative government, they will run into the same problems as the Trudeau government in trying to get this pipeline up and running if they don't consult First Nations in the manner that the courts have instructed governments over the last 10-15 years. Today's Federal Court of Appeal decision has given further clarity as to what would be considered meaningful consultation. Indigenous law is a big business - there's no shortage of lawyers who will help First Nations take the government to court.

[underscore]

Seeing a many native american facebook profiles, I can say this ethnicity of people dont want to risk their ancestral lands and see through the fake "american dream" that our system is.

This mostly comes down to race.. poor settlers will gladly play along as long as they can pay their rat race mortgages and ever lowering standard of living.

:pokerface: have you driven through a res before?

[CharlesInCharge]

Ive seen video, not sure what youre trying to get at.

[jasonturbo]

The decision has nothing to do with the federal government giving "unlimited powers" to Indigenous groups. The duty to consult Indigenous groups has been defined in multiple court decisions over the last 10-15 years. Governments have no choice but to "consult" with First Nations under section 35 of the Charter.

If the next government is a Conservative government, they will run into the same problems as the Trudeau government in trying to get this pipeline up and running if they don't consult First Nations in the manner that the courts have instructed governments over the last 10-15 years. Today's Federal Court of Appeal decision has given further clarity as to what would be considered meaningful consultation. Indigenous law is a big business - there's no shortage of lawyers who will help First Nations take the government to court.

The duty to consult is not unique to First Nations, it’s a duty to consult with the public. (Natives et. al)

I’m making reference to Trudeau introducing new legislation regarding the approval process for projects where additional consideration is provided to indigenous people.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4525666

This new process basically equates to an “indefinite consultation” model.

The same natives that oppose the pipeline for environmental reasons are on record stating that they wouldn’t be opposed to the Project if it was owned and operated by indigenous people... I guess tanker traffic doesn’t matter the second natives are collecting the cheques ;)

[Jmac]

Seems to me like a child is throwing a temper tantrum after a supervising adult takes her toy away...
This was a key part of Alberta signing on to the National Climate Plan, so I'm not surprised.

[Mr.Money]

to me it looks like Trudeau can't keep his promises and people are having even more regrets voting for him now.


the whole pipeline thing just seals the deals,this is who Canada elected and are paying for it now if nothing changes.

[Tapioca]

The duty to consult is not unique to First Nations, it’s a duty to consult with the public. (Natives et. al)

I’m making reference to Trudeau introducing new legislation regarding the approval process for projects where additional consideration is provided to indigenous people.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4525666

This new process basically equates to an “indefinite consultation” model.

The same natives that oppose the pipeline for environmental reasons are on record stating that they wouldn’t be opposed to the Project if it was owned and operated by indigenous people... I guess tanker traffic doesn’t matter the second natives are collecting the cheques ;)

I beg to differ. The duty to consult First Nations is very different from the duty to consult the public.

Here's a manual for federal bureaucrats on how to consult First Nations. It was last revised when the Conservatives were in power: 80 Aboriginal Consultation and Accommodation - Updated Guidelines for Federal Officials to Fulfill the Duty to Consult - March 2011 (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014664/1100100014675)

Some bedtime reading - see section 2 - common law duty for the Crown to consult: 80 Aboriginal Consultation and Accommodation - Updated Guidelines for Federal Officials to Fulfill the Duty to Consult - March 2011 (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014664/1100100014675#chp1_2)

These types of things don't get written unless the courts instruct the government to write them.

I would argue that the Trudeau government introduced that environmental assessment legislation in response to the evolving jurisprudence on Indigenous consultation. Harper wasn't around long enough to see the NEB and his government's revisions to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act in 2012 get taken to the cleaners by the courts.

You are right about First Nations having a price.

[welfare]

But i thought diversity is our strength.

[twitchyzero]

Hey let's stay poor together we can live off the land and bike around.

I heard opening up Canadian resources to other markets can lower BC gas prices and build more hospitals though??/...that's what the NDP of Alberta is saying on our local radio channels so it must be true

[Mr.Money]

I heard opening up Canadian resources to other markets can lower BC gas prices and build more hospitals though??/...that's what the NDP of Alberta is saying on our local radio channels so it must be true

i wonder what else their crystal ball says,how do they know what kind of funds the government is willing to spend on what %.
that's some sweet words to the sheepeople.

[Lomac]

I'm expecting us to get shafted with a shxtty deal, esp with the dairy situation.

Gonna have to watch and make sure I am still buying Canadian milk in the future, even if they are more $$$. But it is really the various dairy products that we have to watch out for since the manufacturer of those products won't tell you were they source their ingridients. If they can replace Canadian milk with the cheap US equivalent, you bet they're gonna do that.
:pokerface:

So, funny story about that... A family member used to work for a cheese distributor that was huge back in the 90's locally and they were recently telling me about some of the stuff that would happen. Some of the specialty cheeses they sold in the supermarkets were straight up black market imports from Europe and brought in through, well... let's just say some unsavoury "importer/exporter" types in Quebec.

Company is a former shell of it's once former glory now due to the umbrella company going out of business, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's something that still happens now and again.

[Lomac]

politicians are so fucked.

You bought the fucking pipeline, make it fucking happen, jesus christ.

As far as I understand it, the existing pipeline that's currently still running oil through it is unaffected by this ruling. This only impacts the proposed parallel line. So it's not like we're currently completely hooped.

Someone feel free to correct me, though.

[Nlkko]

The court kiboshed it, why are people blaming Trudeau? Isn't the court separate from the government.

[CivicBlues]

not blaming Trudeau for the kibosh, but rather the nationalizaton of the loss if it doesn't through since he purchased the pipeline from Kinder Morgan.

[westopher]

Yep. This should have been cleared before a purchase. Overall I’m not a blind critic of the liberals like so many of the dipshits that use statements like “Justine Trudeau” and “libtards” while sharing memes that suggest if it gets a million shares that Trudeau will step down, but this is a gaffe that will absolutely cost the current government it’s power. Instead of pissing off the environmentalists by making it happen or pissing off the pro oil/pro economy people, they will literally alienate both by slapping one side and fucking it up for the other.

[jasonturbo]

Yep. This should have been cleared before a purchase. Overall I’m not a blind critic of the liberals like so many of the dipshits that use statements like “Justine Trudeau” and “libtards” while sharing memes that suggest if it gets a million shares that Trudeau will step down, but this is a gaffe that will absolutely cost the current government it’s power. Instead of pissing off the environmentalists by making it happen or pissing off the pro oil/pro economy people, they will literally alienate both by slapping one side and fucking it up for the other.

They Libs actually negotiated a decent deal on this one, generally O/G assets sell for between 12-15x EBITDA, in this case they bought the existing assets from KMC for approximately 10x EBITDA.

If the Libs were to scrap the expansion and post the existing assets up for sale they would most likely fetch at least 13x EBITDA = 4.5B

If this post gets ten thanks I will buy an E30 M3.

[westopher]

What would they be selling if the pipeline couldn’t be built? Just equipment and such? Land? How would they recoup the losses? Still I don’t think the money being recovered would save face, as people would use the intent, and failure of the deal to criticize from either side.

[Tapioca]

The court ruling didn't shut down the current pipeline so if the federal government were to sell the pipeline, it would be selling the value of the future returns from the existing pipeline in addition to its physical assets.

[jasonturbo]

What would they be selling if the pipeline couldn’t be built? Just equipment and such? Land? How would they recoup the losses? Still I don’t think the money being recovered would save face, as people would use the intent, and failure of the deal to criticize from either side.

The Libs spent 4.5B to acquire all Kinder Morgan Canada assets, this includes the original Trans Mountain Pipeline, all existing terminals, all existing consumer/aviation fuel systems, and the Trans Mountain Expansion Project (Line 2). These combined assets generate an annual EBITDA of over $360M, thought the forecast for 2018 was slightly higher at $430M, they are presently trending towards $380M for 2018.

The valuation model typically applied to energy assets is a multiple of EBITDA, normally in the realm of 12-15x EBITDA. However, we have seen a number of instances lately where acquisitions of energy companies and/or assets has been much higher. (IIRC Williams Energy was acquired for >20x EBITDA)

If the Libs were to cancel the Trans Mountain Expansion and sell off the existing revenue generating assets they would most likely see a positive return on their investment. Assuming the trend of $380M EBITDA for 2018 is correct, and they receive the lowest possible multiple for valuation (12x) they would still walk away with $4.560B + whatever revenue was generated during the period of ownership.

(Operating margin is roughly 50%, so assume a total ROI of 200M over the course of a single year)

My guess is they would see a much higher valuation, certainly closer to 15x, resulting in a total sale price of nearly $6B for an ROI of $1.5B (30%) in what could be as little as one year.

[underscore]

Ive seen video, not sure what youre trying to get at.

You talk about a lowering standard of living, it would have to drop pretty low to get to the level many reserves are at right now.

[Vansterdam]

If this post gets ten thanks I will buy an E30 M3.

#10 here :awwyeah:

[Manic!]

https://theprovince.com/pmn/business-pmn/newsalert-trans-mountain-pipeline-expansion-gets-second-green-light-from-ottawa/wcm/e376979c-4339-4433-b84f-0e969e5edbf0

Trudeau approves the pipeline again. If you want the pipe you will have to vote Trudeau because Scheer will never be able to get it done.

[underscore]

Has jasonturbo bought an E30 M3 yet?

[jasonturbo]

The underlying tragedy is that although the feds approved the Project, and can celebrate their ability to get a pipeline built, they had to do it with taxpayer dollars.

There has been no improvements made to legal or regulatory processes that would reduce risk to future projects of a similar nature, so this is simply a "one and done". Private industry will continue to avoid O&G/mining investment in Canada as a result of a unpredictable outcomes associated with regulatory approvals and/or legal challenges.

Private industry has also been sharply critical of Bill C-69, if the hope of Bill C-69 is to reduce the legal and regulatory risk affecting major projects, the current text falls well short of the intended mark... according to private industry anyway.

Let the protests and legal challenges begin!

[RRxtar]

so we're exactly right back where we were 3-4 years ago, except it will cost taxpayers like $9billion now instead of it being privately financed. and 3 years of opportunity cost down the drain.

[Slifer]

Stupid treehuggers

[whitev70r]

This issue is when you wished Canada operated more like CCP.


... how many of you saw what I did there? :lawl:

[GS8]

so we're exactly right back where we were 3-4 years ago, except it will cost taxpayers like $9billion now instead of it being privately financed. and 3 years of opportunity cost down the drain.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/one_org_international/international/media/international/2016/05/09161032/2015.gif

[vitaminG]

This issue is when you wished Canada operated more like CCP.


... how many of you saw what I did there? :lawl:


Trudeau did say he admires their dictatorship

[Great68]

so we're exactly right back where we were 3-4 years ago, except it will cost taxpayers like $9billion now instead of it being privately financed. and 3 years of opportunity cost down the drain.

We Canadians are really good at pissing money away like this.

Victoria's sewage treatment plant project was the same thing. It was mandated that it was going to happen, did all the engineering, selected their site (McLoughlin point, which made great sense) and fucking esquimalt decides they want to rezone and block the thing, it goes back to re-review, they spend a whole lot more money only to have the province step in and say "McLoughlin is the best place for it, that's where you have to put it guys".

[Manic!]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/one_org_international/international/media/international/2016/05/09161032/2015.gif

If harper had done a proper job and not cut corners this wouldn't have been a delay. scheer will never get it done.

[jasonturbo]

If harper had done a proper job and not cut corners this wouldn't have been a delay. scheer will never get it done.

Technically the Phase 1 and 2 consultations performed under the Harper Gov were successful, it was the Phase 3 consultation performed under the Trudeau Gov that was deemed to be inadequate by the Federal Court of Appeal.

Sooo... yeah, Harper didn't cut any corners... but thanks for your continued/typical anti-conservative input.