[BIC_BAWS]

BC Minimum Wage Increase to $15/hr
(http://globalnews.ca/news/3494298/how-a-15-minimum-wage-could-impact-b-c-s-economy/?utm_source=GlobalBC&utm_medium=Facebook)

This is encouraging people to not go to school and not to further themselves. This is saying that a Cineplex worker will make $15 per hour. Coming from someone who's worked there before, this is ridiculous. This is also saying that if you worked hard/educated yourself to get where you are today, well too bad, the government is giving everyone else a free pass.

If I learned anything from economics, we know that as cost of labour goes up, demand for labour goes down. We also know that as cost of labour goes up, so does prices. This is known as cost-push inflation. The result? Small businesses go out of business. Since they will be affected by the wage increase more than large businesses, they will have to increase their prices, and will not be able to compete (on a price standpoint).

In addition, if anyone thinks the Gov actually cares about you, a higher income means higher income taxes, cpp, ei, etc.

For those people arguing about how businesses have to give a livable wage, well, have you considered that many businesses offer non-monetary benefits (ie. extended health/dental/vision/chiro plans). Instead of a higher minimum wage, how about mandating better benefits?

Thoughts?

[68style]

I disagree, you can't live here on $15 an hour, so motivation to further oneself is still there. This just helps pay for more stuff while you go to school and brings minimum wage in line with inflation over the years.

[GS8]

Growing up, I learned that minimum wage jobs weren't just about the wage. It was about the life skills that come with the job. You're typically working in the fire with pitchforks up your ass. You either give it your all or run away like a pussy.

You weren't supposed to stay at the min. wage level. You use it to elevate yourself towards a better career with better pay but also to be a better contributor to society. Pay taxes, buy things, take trips etc.

Living wage in this city is far above $20 / hour so even at $15 / hour, you're still behind the 8-ball.

As I type this, It just dawned on me that my roommate sounds like a dying Rhinoceros when he snores.

:heckno:

[Gnomes]

You weren't supposed to stay at the min. wage level. You use it to elevate yourself towards a better career with better pay but also to be a better contributor to society. Pay taxes, buy things, take trips etc.


^truth

I was trying to get this point across to some of my friends back in highschool graduation days. They were getting too comfortable with higher-than-normal entry jobs.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I disagree, you can't live here on $15 an hour, so motivation to further oneself is still there. This just helps pay for more stuff while you go to school and brings minimum wage in line with inflation over the years.

What about jobs or people who are currently making 15 to 17 dollars that require some sort of skills? Will their wages goes up as well? Most likely not. So why work harder/get some form of education if people can working at McDonalds with no training. Or will these people say fuck it I am going to apply for the NEW MIN wage now since the job itself will be much easier. What do you think that will do to do people who just enter the force work?

Min wage was never meant to be a living wage. Is mainly for people to learn the skills the they need to get other better jobs/ is for students making some money while going to school. Heck if people really want to walk away from Min wage. Just want into any construction site and ask for a job. Sure is physical but I guarantee it is more than min wage. People just don't want to coz is too hard.

[Mr.Money]

14 dolla balla at churches chicken already made this wage tho.

[teggy604]

If you are a server at $15 dollar min wage plus tip equals some good coin.

[MG1]

$19 dolla balla is the new 14 dolla balla

[radioman]

This will lead to the resurrection of revscene old?

[Armind]

Let's start not tipping. Kappa

[BIC_BAWS]

If you are a server at $15 dollar min wage plus tip equals some good coin.
Servers actually make less than minimum, and it's legal. For example, my friend at matsuyama makes $9/hr but after tips, he makes about $20-$25/hr varying per night. Roughly 40K in annual income

[quasi]

Price of everything will go up, it won't happen over night but it will happen. In 2 years people making the minimum $15 an hour will be no further ahead because that $5 Cheeseburger will now cost $6.50 and that $25.00 tee shirt is now going to be $32.00. If you think retailers are going to absorb that hit you're delusional it will all be passed along.

In the meantime some of those retailers currently on the cusp of being profitable will go under before the transition is complete so to some of those minimum wage employees congrats you got a raise but bummer because you no longer have a job.

I'm basing this on the assumption they are changing it over night? I hope it's phased for the least amount of damage, if they raise it a $1 a year over 4 years it would have less impact then just pushing it right to $15.

[yray]

I don't fucking get it...

$15 dollars, your mcdicks work lunch is now $15
Your groceries will go up
everything you need to buy will go up

Making it easier for workers to unionize... look, now your shitty $15/hr job has union dues

Helping the lower class my ass.

[6o4__boi]

whatever happened to places with similar minimum wage?

curious to see what happened with their economies long term
though i can't recall one off the top of my head

[BIC_BAWS]

whatever happened to places with similar minimum wage?

curious to see what happened with their economies long term
though i can't recall one off the top of my head
Well Ontario implemented it, and on the short term, small businesses are getting crushed, and people are losing jobs



Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[Armind]

Don't worry guys, $400 annual rebate for renters will solve this. :troll:

[MG1]

Read the article................... it is not going to happen tomorrow or next week or next month. It's a path to 15.

The sky will not fall just yet.

Businesses will have time to adjust, be more creative, whathaveyou.

[yray]

Read the article................... it is not going to happen tomorrow or next week or next month. It's a path to 15.

The sky will not fall just yet.

Businesses will have time to adjust, be more creative, whathaveyou.


$11.40 currently to $11.60 in October. Then, the government plans to bump it up to $14 an hour on Jan. 1, 2018 and $15 the following year

That's Ontarios plan. Tell any manufacturing sector to raise its prices by 20-30% within two years... any out of province customers will tell you to fuck off. :lawl:

[6o4__boi]

goddamn...quick google search shows Australia has $17 minimum wage lol

https://www.mises.ca/the-minimum-wage-and-unemployment-in-australia/

[Blueboy222]

:troll:

[Sid Vicious]

i don't see why people are bitching about this

it will probably come into effect by 2019/2020. by then, I doubt $15 will really be worth that much more than $10 today.

https://blogs.northcountrypublicradio.org/inbox/files/2013/02/120103minwage.jpg

i dont know about canada but the current real value of the us minimum wage is actually lower than in the 60s-80s

[MarkyMark]

Let's give businesses all huge tax breaks and watch how fast they pass the extra money onto consumers! Oh they just pocket it? Damn.

[Hakkaboy]

Let's give businesses all huge tax breaks and watch how fast they pass the extra money onto consumers! Oh they just pocket it? Damn.

obviously they won't, but they may hire and extra person or 2 for help if they think they can afford it. Not all businesses, but some which is better than none.

With minimum wage going up to $15/hr, this will lead to less jobs and higher prices for everyone

So making minimum wage "catch up" to inflation will actually cause more inflation. Anyone that has taken a basic Econ class should realize that.

As for people not being able to afford to live in Vancouver....well, don't live in Vancouver then?

[minoru_tanaka]

i don't see why people are bitching about this

it will probably come into effect by 2019/2020. by then, I doubt $15 will really be worth that much more than $10 today.

[IMG]https://blogs.northcountrypublicradio.org/inbox/files/2013/02/120103minwage.jpg/IMG]

i dont know about canada but the current real value of the us minimum wage is actually lower than in the 60s-80s

I agree. I remember when min wage was $5 and banh mi was $2 and loaded with meat and veg.

Today min wage is $10 and the subs are $5 and smaller. min wage / banh mi ratio is shrinking

:considered:

[VR6GTI]

BC Minimum Wage Increase to $15/hr
(http://globalnews.ca/news/3494298/how-a-15-minimum-wage-could-impact-b-c-s-economy/?utm_source=GlobalBC&utm_medium=Facebook)

This is encouraging people to not go to school and not to further themselves. This is saying that a Cineplex worker will make $15 per hour
Schooling doesn't always get people further, in alot of cases it only gets people further into debt

[MarkyMark]

obviously they won't, but they may hire and extra person or 2 for help if they think they can afford it. Not all businesses, but some which is better than none.

With minimum wage going up to $15/hr, this will lead to less jobs and higher prices for everyone

So making minimum wage "catch up" to inflation will actually cause more inflation. Anyone that has taken a basic Econ class should realize that.

As for people not being able to afford to live in Vancouver....well, don't live in Vancouver then?

So instead of keeping wages up with inflation over the years they helped businesses out by giving them cheap labor for decades. Now that the gravy train is ending everyone is up in arms when in reality wages have been behind the times for a long time now.

So yeah, I suppose if you're unhappy that you can't get your Big Mac for less than 10 bucks anymore go move somewhere else.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be a living wage? Then why is it so many companies, once providers of living wages, benefits, pensions, etc, have adopted the McJob model?

Minimum wage increases wouldn't be a big deal if there was also a maximum wage rate. Companies would be forced to reinvest any excess profits into the company and its employees.

Of course, to avoid their societal responsibilities to taxes, regulations, and providing living wages, they will just move their profits offshore, or move entire operations to third world countries with low wages. Globalization for greed is making the middle class disappear.

If the standard of living was brought up around the world, companies would have no where to run to avoid their responsibilities. Don't like paying taxes and living wages in Canada? Can't go to Malaysia, India, Mexico, etc because they will expect the same.

As an added bonus, this could also solve the immigration/refugee issues we see cropping up. No need to create racist laws to prevent immigration. Don't want these people coming in? Take away their reasons for wanting to leave their country for yours by raising the standard of living there.

Once Zefram Cochrane breaks the warp barrier and attracts the attention of the Vulcans, we will finally be able to unite for the greater good.

This will all be a moot point with automation set to collapse global economies in the coming decades anyways.

[Hondaracer]

Such a fucking race to the bottom mentality these days..

[MarkyMark]

The distribution of wealth has just gotten out of whack these days. The owners and CEOs used to have a nicer house, a better car, perhaps a cabin with a boat. Now billions in profit isn't enough, they gotta squeeze every last dollar they can to please those shareholders and get that bonus check on top of their multi million dollar salary.

[kr4l]

The distribution of wealth has just gotten out of whack these days. The owners and CEOs used to have a nicer house, a better car, perhaps a cabin with a boat. Now billions in profit isn't enough, they gotta squeeze every last dollar they can to please those shareholders and get that bonus check on top of their multi million dollar salary.

I'm a owner and CEO of 3 businesses. My company doesn't make billions in profits nor do I have million dollar salary with a bonus. In reality, I probably work double your hours with less pay.

Please stop using huge corporations as your examples. We are talking about all the small businesses that will be hit by this wage increase. No, not your crackbucks, Tim Hortons, or McDonald's, but your corner store mom and pop shops, local restaurants, small grocery stores that only make ends meat.

This wage increase will definitely have a huge impact on my business. But you know what? I will adapt and survive, even if I need to cut half my staff, buy a self ordering station, and raise my prices but 30% while having wait times triple.

The only people this wage increase will affect is the consumer. I hope you're ready to pay 30% more for everything, even if your wage goes up slightly(or even at all).

Edit: I forgot to add that since everyone is a such a baller now with a huge increase in wage, I might as well raise my rent on my invesntment property

[MarkyMark]

I'm a owner and CEO of 3 businesses. My company doesn't make billions in profits nor do I have million dollar salary with a bonus. In reality, I probably work double your hours with less pay.

Please stop using huge corporations as your examples. We are talking about all the small businesses that will be hit by this wage increase. No, not your crackbucks, Tim Hortons, or McDonald's, but your corner store mom and pop shops, local restaurants, small grocery stores that only make ends meat.

This wage increase will definitely have a huge impact on my business. But you know what? I will adapt and survive, even if I need to cut half my staff, buy a self ordering station, and raise my prices but 30% while having wait times triple.

The only people this wage increase will affect is the consumer. I hope you're ready to pay 30% more for everything, even if your wage goes up slightly(or even at all).

Edit: I forgot to add that since everyone is a such a baller now with a huge increase in wage, I might as well raise my rent on my invesntment property

I use huge corporations as my example because that's the biggest exploit there is. When businesses get away with cheap labor the buck isn't passed on to anyone but themselves​.

Do I think a blanket $15 an hour for every business is ok? Probably not, perhaps it should go by how much profit the company made in the last so many years.

Like you said, the good businesses will adapt and survive, and I'll go eat at a restaurant 2 times a month instead of 3.

[inv4zn]

K, so rather than just spew out non-empirical opinion, or use Econ101 that I took 10 years ago as a source, I dug around a bit during lunch.

There's a lot of editorials and commentaries regarding the economic effects of raising min. wage, with both parts of the argument being subjectively justified, but I found this one to be a little more interesting. This is American, but it's published by the CBO -- take a read:
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

Essentially, yes, jobs will disappear because of the added burden to small business owners. But also there will be more $ to spend for the people who make min wage, so the overall hit on the economy isn't as drastic as some are opining, and could potentially be overall better, if done right.

Now, let's be honest. I think nobody on RS is making minimum wage. With all the ballers on here, the proposed, stepped increases wouldn't suddenly ruin you financially.

All that said, I will admit that secretly I am a little salty that burger flippers will potentially be making $15/hr while I made $6.50 on my first job...:okay:

[MarkyMark]

People are adapting with the price of a house going up 100k in a year, yet make their Whopper go from 6 dollars to 7 and that's where the economy is going to tank?

[BIC_BAWS]

People are adapting with the price of a house going up 100k in a year, yet make their Whopper go from 6 dollars to 7 and that's where the economy is going to tank?

Again, you refer to a Whopper, suggesting Burger King or other large corporations/big businesses. While BC's economy largely rests on the housing marketing, the other key contributors are small businesses.

So sure, the prices of housing are going up, okay. So don't you worry, Whopper prices aren't like to go up. But your favourite small burger shop (ie. Splitz Burger) will be forced to price higher to accommodate for the increased labour cost. In this scenario, most consumers would rather go to BK for a $5 burger than Splitz for a $7 burger. Thus, this price variation puts Splitz (and other small businesses) out of business.

Edit: I read your explanation about large corporations, but in this thread, the main focus has been the impact on small businesses since post #1.

[Bouncing Bettys]

If a business can't afford to pay its employees a living wage, and has to pass on costs to customers to the point of becoming un-profitable, they need to seriously rethink their business strategy.

[MarkyMark]

Again, you refer to a Whopper, suggesting Burger King or other large corporations/big businesses. While BC's economy largely rests on the housing marketing, the other key contributors are small businesses.

So sure, the prices of housing are going up, okay. So don't you worry, Whopper prices aren't like to go up. But your favourite small burger shop (ie. Splitz Burger) will be forced to price higher to accommodate for the increased labour cost. In this scenario, most consumers would rather go to BK for a $5 burger than Splitz for a $7 burger. Thus, this price variation puts Splitz (and other small businesses) out of business.

Edit: I read your explanation about large corporations, but in this thread, the main focus has been the impact on small businesses since post #1.

Which is why I said I don't think $15 an hour should be across the board, but start with the businesses that are profiting the most from cheap labor. I really don't think it would be the colossal fuck up everyone makes it out to be. Small business is more likely to hurt when everyone's money is tied up in the mortgage and can't afford to eat out anymore or spend that extra cash on something they like.

What are small businesses going to do when all the big players automate everything and pay one person for every 10 a small business has to employ because they can't afford robots?

Things change with time. This province used to run on lumber mills, but the government sold that industry out and now it runs on something else.

[kr4l]

If a business can't afford to pay its employees a living wage, and has to pass on costs to customers to the point of becoming un-profitable, they need to seriously rethink their business strategy.

Pretty easy to say coming from someone that doesn't own a business.. (please please please prove me wrong)

[kr4l]

Which is why I said I don't think $15 an hour should be across the board, but start with the businesses that are profiting the most from cheap labor. I really don't think it would be the colossal fuck up everyone makes it out to be. Small business is more likely to hurt when everyone's money is tied up in the mortgage and can't afford to eat out anymore or spend that extra cash on something they like.

What are small businesses going to do when all the big players automate everything and pay one person for every 10 a small business has to employ because they can't afford robots?

Things change with time. This province used to run on lumber mills, but the government sold that industry out and now it runs on something else.

everyone's money is always tied up in mortgages and rent. You can't use hat example and say that'll hurt the small business economy. What's going to hurt is people have no money cause they have no jobs.

What people are worried about is the unemployement. Instead of just being 'ok' at your job, you gotta be damn good at your job or else fired. How are millennial suppose to gain any work experience when they can't find a job.

The automated system is actually not as expensive as you think. So what am I gunna do? I'm going to invest in it cause in the long run, it'll save me lots of money. What does that mean? Less jobs

'Things change with time' that's funny you say that and I'm glad you understand that here. It's also relevant with everything you say about the housing market as well wit people buying 10 years ago compared to now.

[MarkyMark]

everyone's money is always tied up in mortgages and rent. You can't use hat example and say that'll hurt the small business economy. What's going to hurt is people have no money cause they have no jobs.

What people are worried about is the unemployement. Instead of just being 'ok' at your job, you gotta be damn good at your job or else fired. How are millennial suppose to gain any work experience when they can't find a job.

The automated system is actually not as expensive as you think. So what am I gunna do? I'm going to invest in it cause in the long run, it'll save me lots of money. What does that mean? Less jobs

'Things change with time' that's funny you say that and I'm glad you understand that here. It's also relevant with everything you say about the housing market as well wit people buying 10 years ago compared to now.

Yeah I can use mortgages as an example because now more than ever people are using more and more of their net income on it, and it's only getting worse.

Perhaps people making more money might go out and spend more money? Oh no that's blasphemy it will only cost jobs right? That money vanishes into thin air once you pry it from an owners cold dead hands.

And what's wrong with having to be damn good at your job? Isn't that how it used to be, you do a good job or you get canned? If that's not how you choose which employees you keep then I don't know what to say.

But really what does it matter, whether people do a good job or not you already admitted you'll replace them with a robot, so they might as well start making some extra cash off you in the meantime.

[Digitalis]

Willing to bet you voted NDP. Never owned a profitable business and never will.
As far as I'm concerned there should be no safety net of min wage.
You will quickly find where you stand and if you need to make more you'd upgrade yourself. If your willing to work at a lower wage you've got no one to blame but yourself.
Any country that punishes those who earn more by taxing the crap out of them is a country that has lost it's freedom. Take a look at France for rates, look at what happened to Seattle with 15/h.
All you'll do is justify the cost of robots.
I use huge corporations as my example because that's the biggest exploit there is. When businesses get away with cheap labor the buck isn't passed on to anyone but themselves​.

Do I think a blanket $15 an hour for every business is ok? Probably not, perhaps it should go by how much profit the company made in the last so many years.

Like you said, the good businesses will adapt and survive, and I'll go eat at a restaurant 2 times a month instead of 3.

[MarkyMark]

Willing to bet you voted NDP. Never owned a profitable business and never will.
As far as I'm concerned there should be no safety net of min wage.
You will quickly find where you stand and if you need to make more you'd upgrade yourself. If your willing to work at a lower wage you've got no one to blame but yourself.
Any country that punishes those who earn more by taxing the crap out of them is a country that has lost it's freedom. Take a look at France for rates, look at what happened to Seattle with 15/h.
All you'll do is justify the cost of robots.

What happened in Seattle? Did every mom and pop shop close down and unemployment rate the highest in the country?

[meme405]

This is what $15 an hour minimum wage looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/ZW2iCuc.jpg

And I'll be damned, these machines are wayyyy better than the stupid teenager at the counter ever was. You can even mix the flavours on the Mcflurry.

[RRxtar]

i always like these discussions when people say "Huge corporations can afford it". ya what about all the small businesses? i bet 95% of employees have no fucking clue about the financials of the business they work for and over estimate margins by 10x

[kr4l]

Yeah I can use mortgages as an example because now more than ever people are using more and more of their net income on it, and it's only getting worse.

Perhaps people making more money might go out and spend more money? Oh no that's blasphemy it will only cost jobs right? That money vanishes into thin air once you pry it from an owners cold dead hands.

And what's wrong with having to be damn good at your job? Isn't that how it used to be, you do a good job or you get canned? If that's not how you choose which employees you keep then I don't know what to say.

But really what does it matter, whether people do a good job or not you already admitted you'll replace them with a robot, so they might as well start making some extra cash off you in the meantime.

So you're saying people are going to spend less now, because they have mortgages, but back a few years ago, they spent more cause they also had mortgages?? Just because you don't have the income to spend or don't want to, doesn't mean everyone is doing the same. I know this cause I see it personally with my business.

Again, your going with the make more money spend more money. Just because the minimum wage is $15, does not mean there is going to be more money out there to spend. If you don't get this part, then I got nothing but this example

$11 x 8 hours is $88
$15 x 4 hours is $60

Yes hours will be cut, jobs will be cut (minimum wage jobs). You don't see this happening because you do not own a small business. I'm telling you straight up that this is what I'm going to do as a small business owner to stay afloat.

Do you know how many new employees I hire that don't make the cut? Especially at $15 you better be damn good. I first hand see these things while you just talk about it and think you know.

Since you don't know me, let me tell you that I actually care about all my staff like my own children. I try to teach them the valuable skills needed to be leaders in there career jobs after our place. If I wanted to implement self serving stations and cut staff right now to make more money, I could. I don't cause I'm not a greedy bastard. But the $15 minimum wage is making that decision for me and I let my staff know the reasons behind it.

You're making it sound like all business owners are greedy bastards and now my staff should be greedy as well since I'm going to be replacing them with robots. First and foremost, I need to worry about the business. Without that, no one gets paid, not me, not my staff

But it seems you have all he answers when you don't even own a business.

[Spoon]

This is what $15 an hour minimum wage looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/ZW2iCuc.jpg

And I'll be damned, these machines are wayyyy better than the stupid teenager at the counter ever was. You can even mix the flavours on the Mcflurry.

Everytime I use these, it comes with a sense of guilt. Knowing damn well that I'm eliminating starter type jobs for my kids or future generations. But to each their own.

[MarkyMark]

To be clear, I'm not against small business owners. You took the risk to build your own thing and that takes balls. This $15 minimum wage should be something that is phased in for the smaller businesses, since they will be the ones that will need to restructure the most.

[kr4l]

To be clear, I'm not against small business owners. You took the risk to build your own thing and that takes balls. This $15 minimum wage should be something that is phased in for the smaller businesses, since they will be the ones that will need to restructure the most.

Even with all the bullshit I spewed towards you, the bottom line is that this minimum wage will do more harm than good, especially to the consumers, which is everyone..

[Manic!]

Whats going to happen is business that are not that successful are going to shut down and there customers will go to other places. Those places will make even more money.

[jasonturbo]

Anyone who works hard and gives a fuck about their job already makes over $20/hr.

Why do I get paid minimum wage checklist: (If you check any of these you're probably getting paid min. wage.)
- I'm in high school
- I'm lazy as fuck at work
- I'm lazy as fuck at life
- I don't care about customer service
- I don't care whether or not my employer makes money
- I miss at least 1 work day per month
- I come in late at least 2 times per month
- I have no education
- I have no trade ticket
- I have no unique skills
- I can't communicate with customers
- I present like a homeless person
- I'm Filipino (Mexicans of the North)

CEO pay is outrageously high because there is tremendous competition for these individuals due to their intelligence, leadership skills, track record, education, personality, etc. If you want to bitch about CEO pay go buy shares in the company.

Nothing is stopping anyone in this thread from being a CEO, work hard, get to the top, and then give 98% of your wage to the rest of the staff.

[BIC_BAWS]

Anyone who works hard and gives a fuck about their job already makes over $20/hr.


CEO pay is outrageously high because there is tremendous competition for these individuals due to their intelligence, leadership skills, track record, education, personality, etc. If you want to bitch about CEO pay go buy shares in the company.

Nothing is stopping anyone in this thread from being a CEO, work hard, get to the top, and then give 98% of your wage to the rest of the staff.

THIS. While I do already make over $20/hr, its disheartening that the government is simply saying, hey everyone else, here's a free pass. Fuck all those other guys who completed their qualifications and worked their ass off. Even though it is a $5 difference, the petty part in me is still annoyed.

[Hondaracer]

It's like those immigrant memes where it's like "sorry Jim but Dr.gupta didn't take your job"

Bottom feeder McDonald's employee mad at CEO who's devoted his life to a company to make it a success vs a guy who can't get a Big Mac right.

[Blueboy222]

:troll:

[FerrariEnzo]

This is another way of government making more money from us.. we end up paying more taxes...

[Gh0st]

ppl wanting minimum wage to rise substantially should take a macroeconomics course.. i'm not opposed to anything at all, but there are drawbacks!

[westopher]

THIS. While I do already make over $20/hr, its disheartening that the government is simply saying, hey everyone else, here's a free pass. Fuck all those other guys who completed their qualifications and worked their ass off. Even though it is a $5 difference, the petty part in me is still annoyed.
Your life doesn't get any better by keeping someone else's life shittier.
You don't make enough at where you're at, why don't you just work harder? That seems like its your advice to the minimum wage earners. Take it.
People that can afford to live can put money back into the economy, driving local businesses.
The fact that someone who is making a living wage, is upset about people at the absolute bottom getting slightly closer to them is pretty pathetic. Wages are not increasing at the same rate as inflation or home prices. Its time to catch up.

[BIC_BAWS]

You don't make enough at where you're at, why don't you just work harder? That seems like its your advice to the minimum wage earners. Take it.
People that can afford to live can put money back into the economy, driving local businesses.

Like I said, I am being petty and I am saying exactly that. If you don't make enough where you're at, why don't you further yourself with education? Why don't you make changes? If you're stuck at a McD's job, why don't you sign up to their partnership program with BCIT, that gives you a diploma, and a direct transfer into the BBA?

I have no sympathy for the people around me who complain about working a shitty job, but never bothered to go to school because they think it's useless or in some cases, they just don't feel like it. These are the same people I hear complaining about minimum wage, are the same people who blow their money on getting high everyday or screw around at work.

Granted the people I'm describing isn't everyone.

People who can afford to live will put money back into the economy, assuming that our interest rates don't increase. If they stay at the low rate they are right now, then yes, you are correct. People will more likely spend than save, especially with low interest rates. The statement is reversed if there are high interest rates.

[BIC_BAWS]

AstulzerRZD has said (on a separate post): "McDonalds ordering machines cost only $5 a day to operate! Perhaps we'll be seeing more of this in low wage industries.

As well, I was speaking with a Econ PhD candidate, and the basic models used in Econ 101 to describe the inefficiencies of a minimum wage is actually proven wrong in 201. In general, a growing economy will benefit from a higher minimum wage."

Assuming that Econ 101 is Micro, and that Econ 201 is Macro. All of my arguments on a theoretical standpoint was from Macroeconomics.

Does anyone have knowledge of the theory beyond micro and macro, and can speak on the above argument?

[Jmac]

obviously they won't, but they may hire and extra person or 2 for help if they think they can afford it. Not all businesses, but some which is better than none.

With minimum wage going up to $15/hr, this will lead to less jobs and higher prices for everyone

So making minimum wage "catch up" to inflation will actually cause more inflation. Anyone that has taken a basic Econ class should realize that.

As for people not being able to afford to live in Vancouver....well, don't live in Vancouver then?
Considering I assume this thread is related to the NDP, their platform included a path to a $15 minimum wage in addition to reducing taxes for small businesses.

[nsx042003]

so if this gets implemented, can I stop tipping @ various places? I am ALL for this then.

[Mr.HappySilp]

The distribution of wealth has just gotten out of whack these days. The owners and CEOs used to have a nicer house, a better car, perhaps a cabin with a boat. Now billions in profit isn't enough, they gotta squeeze every last dollar they can to please those shareholders and get that bonus check on top of their multi million dollar salary.

Cousin runs a franchise pizza place. You don't make that after all expense/fees/equipment/franchise fees. He also works the worse hours and haven't taken any vacation for a few years already. Not to mention the time he sacrifice with his family.

Typical day he goes to work Wed to Sun 4pm to closing (usually close around 1am then there is cleaning and crap so he is usually done by 2am). Goes home sleep on the couch since wife is already sleeping and he doesn't want to wake her up. Gets up around 10 to 11am next day, doesn't get a chance to play or take his kid to school. Also on his time off he have to order stock/sometimes even go pick up the stock himself if he runs out and needs it ASAP. Make schedule for his employee, do all the accounting. Sometimes he also needs to work 6 days if some employee call in sick or just doesn't show up. He also goes to close the the pizza place on his day off to make sure the profit he makes is all counted for.

You could ask why not work 9 to 5 and weekends off or go on vacation? When you are a business owner you don't just walk away. You want your business to succeed. Working in the day time sure he could do that but people usually order take out pizza at night and on weekends. Do your trust your employee enough not to steal any money while you go on your 2 week vacation?

Most small business make very very little profit once you factor in all the work they do. Is not like your 9 to 5 where you can come in at 9, go chat with co-workers for 10mins, grab a cup of coffee from the kitchen and starts working maybe 20mins later and leave right a 5. You don't have to care if there are work needs to be done ASAP or stay an extra hour with no pay. You can take vacation anytime you like or just call in sick whenever.

Next time you shop at a mom and pop shop ask the owner how many vacation they have taken in last year and how many days they took sick days off.

[meme405]

Your life doesn't get any better by keeping someone else's life shittier.
You don't make enough at where you're at, why don't you just work harder? That seems like its your advice to the minimum wage earners. Take it.
People that can afford to live can put money back into the economy, driving local businesses.
The fact that someone who is making a living wage, is upset about people at the absolute bottom getting slightly closer to them is pretty pathetic. Wages are not increasing at the same rate as inflation or home prices. Its time to catch up.

Okay see this is the thing, lets stick to one example:

A person who is making 15 bucks an hour now, and a teenage cashier at a convenience store who is making 10 bucks an hour now.

So the cashier gets bumped to 15 an hour in the next couple years. What happens to the other guy making 15 an hour? His wage doesn't go up. So you're not moving everyone up the ladder, your just raising the very bottom. It's not going to do a fucking thing. Literally in terms of quality of life, or living is not going to add up to a fucking thing. $15 an hour is not a living wage in vancouver, hell it's not even a living wage in burnaby, new west, fuck I can't even imagine it in surrey.

What BicBaws pointed out is the exact same issue I take with unions. They take what is never going to EVER be a level playing field, and artificially level it. Some employees are just better than others, but unions destroy that, and they put shitty employees and good employees on even ground, it's retarded.

This is going to do exactly the same thing, when I was in high school I worked at Cypress Mountain, I actually ended up working there for a number of years, The first year I think I was a little higher than minimum wage (barely but just because you had to travel so far for work), I was a good worker (I know shocking), so I got a raise, and the next season I got another raise. I remember there was another kid, who worked there from before me and was still working there my second year, he didn't get fuck all, because he was a lazy piece of shit and basically just sat around flirting with the cashiers. Now even into my third year I was still only at like $14 an hour.

I look back at my scenario, and I wonder you bump that starting wage way the fuck higher to $15 an hour. It just means that my first 4 years I just wouldn't have gotten any raises. or I presume that's how it would work out at a place like cypress. Instead what it would do is bump people like that little fuck I worked with to an even level with other good employees - AKA refer back to the example with bullshit unions above.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Your life doesn't get any better by keeping someone else's life shittier.
You don't make enough at where you're at, why don't you just work harder? That seems like its your advice to the minimum wage earners. Take it.
People that can afford to live can put money back into the economy, driving local businesses.
The fact that someone who is making a living wage, is upset about people at the absolute bottom getting slightly closer to them is pretty pathetic. Wages are not increasing at the same rate as inflation or home prices. Its time to catch up.

But you see my life does get shitter. Assuming now someone makes $25/hour and a meal cost $15.

Min wage is raise to $15 but my wage doesn't go up and stays at $25. However that meal now cost me $20 coz well business needs to raise the cost to keep up with hiring people with higher pay. So I just got screw with paying an extra $5 for my meal.

Also since everything is more expensive people who makes the new Min wage is no better off than it was when min wage was lower because everything went up. In fact he might even be worse off because some business might even raise the price even higher (Most likely big chain stores.).

I still remember long long long time ago I used to eat at Crystal mall very often. This one place was charging like $5 for a meal. When Min wage goes up by a tiny bit. They raise the price of the same meal to $7.50 and blame it on the higher labor cost.

[MG1]

Next time you shop at a mom and pop shop ask the owner how many vacation they have taken in last year and how many days they took sick days off.

This is why I chose not to own a pizza franchise or any small business, for that matter. It's risky business (pun intended). Having said that, some people like being their own boss. Trying to survive and staying ahead of the competition.............some make it while the majority fail. Rising prices of materials, rent, labour, you name it are never predictable and out of your control. Yet, we have people willing to take that risk. Why?

IMHO, there are way too many restaurants, pizza joints, and coffee shops. Yet, Starbucks seems to be doing well (they started out small). Uncle Fatih seems to be doing well. Sushi Garden seems to be doing well. Etc. Mom and pop shops have always struggled and will continue to till the end of time. I saw corner grocery stores close down by the dozen when the big boys like Superstore and Walmarts opened up. Yet, we have some that are becoming more popular than ever. Instead of one on every fricken intersection, there are just a few in each neighbourhood. These places survived because they evolved and made their business special to attract new customers. I know I'm going off on a tangent, but it's better than boring the living piss out of people by posting about my experiences holding minimum wage jobs while going to elementary, secondary, and university.

I really loved those jobs, BTW. Made the most out of shitty situations and had fun. "It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness."

[westopher]

But you see my life does get shitter. Assuming now someone makes $25/hour and a meal cost $15.

Min wage is raise to $15 but my wage doesn't go up and stays at $25. However that meal now cost me $20 coz well business needs to raise the cost to keep up with hiring people with higher pay. So I just got screw with paying an extra $5 for my meal.


Well heres a satisfying quote for me to share that you posted in the real estate thread that I will adjust for this thread
Just because you are born here doesn't give you more rights than others. Don't like the fact you can't own? Make changes to your life. Buy farther away from the city, share a rental unit with friends to cut cost down, get a 2nd part time job, spend less. There is always a choice but I guess that's too much to ask.

Just because you ate there before doesn't give you the right to keep eating it. Don't like the fact that meal is an extra $5? Make changes to your meals. Eat smaller portions, share a meal with a friend to cut cost down, get a second part time job, spend less. You have a choice but I guess thats too much to ask.

[westopher]

God this is too fucking easy

Want to get something you want? Work for it. See I hate people who complain but does nothing to change their life.

Want to afford that extra $5 for your meal? Work for it. I hate people who complain but it does nothing to change their life.

[SiRV]

BC Minimum Wage Increase to $15/hr
(http://globalnews.ca/news/3494298/how-a-15-minimum-wage-could-impact-b-c-s-economy/?utm_source=GlobalBC&utm_medium=Facebook)

This is encouraging people to not go to school and not to further themselves. This is saying that a Cineplex worker will make $15 per hour. Coming from someone who's worked there before, this is ridiculous. This is also saying that if you worked hard/educated yourself to get where you are today, well too bad, the government is giving everyone else a free pass.

If I learned anything from economics, we know that as cost of labour goes up, demand for labour goes down. We also know that as cost of labour goes up, so does prices. This is known as cost-push inflation. The result? Small businesses go out of business. Since they will be affected by the wage increase more than large businesses, they will have to increase their prices, and will not be able to compete (on a price standpoint).

In addition, if anyone thinks the Gov actually cares about you, a higher income means higher income taxes, cpp, ei, etc.

For those people arguing about how businesses have to give a livable wage, well, have you considered that many businesses offer non-monetary benefits (ie. extended health/dental/vision/chiro plans). Instead of a higher minimum wage, how about mandating better benefits?

Thoughts?


Didn't read the rest of the comments but, the way it actually works is like this:
- most people can't survive on 15/hr
- these people will be still considered poor
- it's the poor people who will spend money moreso than the rich
- example: 10 people making 15/hr will spend more than 1 person making 150/hr (this person will likely be saving their$$)
- the increase in spending overall will allow for greater circulation of Money
- increasing circulating money will increase overall profits for companies

[Bouncing Bettys]

Businesses which pay less than a living wage are already passing the costs onto the public as employees are more likely to depend on tax-payer funded social programs to get by. Instead of their customer base covering the costs of a wage increase, the entire tax-payer base, including the business owners themselves (if they haven't got a good accountant, lawyer, or offshore account to hide from their responsibilities) has to cover the income shortfall.

[MarkyMark]

But you see my life does get shitter. Assuming now someone makes $25/hour and a meal cost $15.

Min wage is raise to $15 but my wage doesn't go up and stays at $25. However that meal now cost me $20 coz well business needs to raise the cost to keep up with hiring people with higher pay. So I just got screw with paying an extra $5 for my meal.

So you want to keep someone else's wages the same for life so you can continue to reap the benefits of it. If that extra 5 dollars a meal really hurts you, then take your own advice and go collect pop cans after work to make up the difference, no one owes you anything. Work harder.

[Mr.Money]

greed is a simple thing to like,more and more are gonna hop on the bandwagon just for afew extra bucks.

[yray]

How do teachers feel about this now that they are earning less :lol

[Bouncing Bettys]

How does everyone feel about increases in taxes to cover social programs attempting to keep the working poor and their families off the streets?

[kr4l]

Businesses which pay less than a living wage are already passing the costs onto the public as employees are more likely to depend on tax-payer funded social programs to get by. Instead of their customer base covering the costs of a wage increase, the entire tax-payer base, including the business owners themselves (if they haven't got a good accountant, lawyer, or offshore account to hide from their responsibilities) has to cover the income shortfall.

What the heck are you talking about man? All my staff are students in high school and early post secondary. If you're 35 and making minimum wage, that's your own damn problem and tax payers problem, not mine as a business owner

Btw, I'm not sure where you guys are getting all this bs from but I still have to pay tax just like any regular citizen

[kr4l]

So you want to keep someone else's wages the same for life so you can continue to reap the benefits of it. If that extra 5 dollars a meal really hurts you, then take your own advice and go collect pop cans after work to make up the difference, no one owes you anything. Work harder.

If you call working hard reaping benefits, then yes.

The issue with everyone's opinions here is that it's all based on different situations and age groups. That's why its so 2 sided. If you guys took an age group, then it would be much more clear

An example would be, a sous chef with training and say 5 years experience. Say he makes $20 hour and works his ass off. They hire a 16 year old dishwasher that now makes $15 hour. No bills at all

Then you have a 35 year old stocking shelves at superstore. $15 hour. Lives on his own

[Hondaracer]

another problem i have is until the system catches up as a whole, what is the incentive for some bum to work harder or even maintain a job they have 'experiance' with ?

a guy who has some half ass skill in construction who might know some processes like form work etc. why the hell would he continue to bust his ass in a physical job that takes a toll for $16-$18 an hour when he could go smoke crack all day and drive a lordco car delivering parts for $1 less?

no incentive for the bottom feeders to learn skills or progress when their ceiling is now closer to their floor.

[MarkyMark]

If you call working hard reaping benefits, then yes.

The issue with everyone's opinions here is that it's all based on different situations and age groups. That's why its so 2 sided. If you guys took an age group, then it would be much more clear

An example would be, a sous chef with training and say 5 years experience. Say he makes $20 hour and works his ass off. They hire a 16 year old dishwasher that now makes $15 hour.

Who's to say someone making minimum wage doesn't work hard? From my experience, the more money you make the easier your job actually gets. If working hard only goes by the amount of hours you put in then sure, small business owners work harder than anyone.

Not everyone making minimum wage is a teenager. Some are in their 50s who perhaps lost their job in a dying industry and had no choice because they have no other skills. College wasn't a necessity back in their day. They have a family to support, no time or money to get schooling to find another $20+/h job. I don't automatically assume that the 50 year old lady at McDonald's that gives me my coffee every morning is some loser who just never had any drive to be something else in her life, who knows what happened that lead her to be in that spot.

[Armind]

Employers should just load more duties/responsibilities for $15. Gotta earn it, right?

$15/hr dishwasher? Fuck that, you're mopping all the floors and cleaning the stoves also.

[MarkyMark]

another problem i have is until the system catches up as a whole, what is the incentive for some bum to work harder or even maintain a job they have 'experiance' with ?

a guy who has some half ass skill in construction who might know some processes like form work etc. why the hell would he continue to bust his ass in a physical job that takes a toll for $16-$18 an hour when he could go smoke crack all day and drive a lordco car delivering parts for $1 less?

no incentive for the bottom feeders to learn skills or progress when their ceiling is now closer to their floor.

Well if these companies can no longer find someone to break their back for $18 then maybe it will force them to up their wages until someone else is willing to do it. Isn't that how business works, you pay what someone is willing to work for?

[yray]

Who's to say someone making minimum wage doesn't work hard? From my experience, the more money you make the easier your job actually gets. If working hard only goes by the amount of hours you put in then sure, small business owners work harder than anyone.


:heckno: You get paid to handle the bullshit

[Bouncing Bettys]

Employers should just load more duties/responsibilities for $15. Gotta earn it, right?

$15/hr dishwasher? Fuck that, you're mopping all the floors and cleaning the stoves also.

They likely already were doing that.
According to the Economic Policy Institute:
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/02/labor_gap/04e656c70.png

[Hondaracer]

Well if these companies can no longer find someone to break their back for $18 then maybe it will force them to up their wages until someone else is willing to do it. Isn't that how business works, you pay what someone is willing to work for?

thats why i said the system needs to catch up as a whole

although, this likely means the plumber that used to charge you $65 an hour is now going to be close to $80-$90 as a cascading effect

[Sid Vicious]

lmao at all the people in the thread getting bent over shape over the nominal value of $15. no-one is actually calculating what the actual value is when adjusted for purchasing power parity.

for example look at this pic: min wage of 16 in australia
https://thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com/real-hourly-minimum-wages-around-the-world_52263c18182b6_w1500.png
https://static.attn.com/sites/default/files/minimum-wage-minutes-big-mac-01.png

much like canada, the cost of living in Australia quite high. in addition, these charts were released in 2013. adjusted for parity, imagine how low the value of 15 is in 2019/2020 (relatively speaking)

[MarkyMark]

thats why i said the system needs to catch up as a whole

although, this likely means the plumber that used to charge you $65 an hour is now going to be close to $80-$90 as a cascading effect

If minimum wage steadily kept up with inflation over the years it wouldn't seem like such a shock. This is just years of ignoring the problem coming to a head. Prices of everything have been going up even with minimum wage staying low.

[kr4l]

Who's to say someone making minimum wage doesn't work hard? From my experience, the more money you make the easier your job actually gets. If working hard only goes by the amount of hours you put in then sure, small business owners work harder than anyone.

Not everyone making minimum wage is a teenager. Some are in their 50s who perhaps lost their job in a dying industry and had no choice because they have no other skills. College wasn't a necessity back in their day. They have a family to support, no time or money to get schooling to find another $20+/h job. I don't automatically assume that the 50 year old lady at McDonald's that gives me my coffee every morning is some loser who just never had any drive to be something else in her life, who knows what happened that lead her to be in that spot.

So should your job pay you $15 an hour cause you're working as hard as the dishwasher who's making $15? You guys putting in the same hours and both hard workers

I reap the benefits not only cause I work harder, but I'm educated, I'm an asset, I make the company more money than the bottom feeder etc etc

I understand your point about the 50 year old and it's a harsh reality. But everyone has problems and at the end of the day, that is not my problem. If my business tanks because of this minimum wage increase, is anyone going to help me??

[westopher]

Well you can go get a 15 dollar an hour job doing nothing.
What's the saying? Adapt or die?
What about the benefits of your business gaining more customers because more people can afford your products? I'm sure as hell looking forward to some young cooks/dishwashers that could never afford to eat my food unless they worked for me, to come in and get to experience it. Even if it's just once every few months. If you think your business will fail because you have to pay your employees more, make your business more desirable.

[inv4zn]

^As previously stated, if your business tanks because of an extra $4 an hour you have to pay an employee, you're doing something wrong to begin with.

[Manic!]

Employers should just load more duties/responsibilities for $15. Gotta earn it, right?

$15/hr dishwasher? Fuck that, you're mopping all the floors and cleaning the stoves also.

That's whats going to happen. Places are going to hire less people and make there existing employees work harder.

[kr4l]

Well you can go get a 15 dollar an hour job doing nothing.
What's the saying? Adapt or die?
What about the benefits of your business gaining more customers because more people can afford your products? I'm sure as hell looking forward to some young cooks/dishwashers that could never afford to eat my food unless they worked for me, to come in and get to experience it. Even if it's just once every few months. If you think your business will fail because you have to pay your employees more, make your business more desirable.

Honestly, that was exactly what I was thinking. I'd probably make more money working $15 hour than running my business

[MarkyMark]

That's whats going to happen. Places are going to hire less people and make there existing employees work harder.

They already do that. You don't think businesses look at their staff and notice these things? If a company can make one person do two jobs and get rid of someone without a loss in production they will do it whether minimum wage is 5 dollars or 15.

[kr4l]

^As previously stated, if your business tanks because of an extra $4 an hour you have to pay an employee, you're doing something wrong to begin with.

Please gtfo with that bullshit

Yeah 1 lower employee at an extra $4 an hour ($15) is not a problem

However, I have to boost my leaders to make it fair so they now make $17-18?

Oh btw, I have 10 people working on a single day which can total 60 hours. Right now I'd be paying out around $600 (to make numbers easy) but with the wage increase, I'll be paying out $900. Yeah that extra $300 doesn't hurt me at all.

Please enlighten me more with your business running skills. I'd love to hear them

Edit: forgot to mention that that $300 is labour. If my labour cost is 30%, I have to make an extra $900 in sales to cover it

Also with the increase in produce/materials, rent, insurance, water, power, phone, internet, debit system, advertisement, etc etc, yeah consumer cost is definitely going up. By what do I know, I MUST be doing something wrong

[Hondaracer]

exactly. Your 10 dishwashers now make the same as your cooks? that will work out well.

[MarkyMark]

The problem is people are just seeing the huge jump all at once. It should have gradually been made to $15 over the last 15 years, but instead the wages were pretty much frozen. So yeah, now suddenly your expenses go from $600 to $900, but did you ever think that extra $300 you got away with was due to your employees being underpaid for years?

[BaoTurbo]

exactly. Your 10 dishwashers now make the same as your cooks? that will work out well.

Lol thats gonna be a fun kitchen to work in LUL

[kr4l]

The problem is people are just seeing the huge jump all at once. It should have gradually been made to $15 over the last 15 years, but instead the wages were pretty much frozen. So yeah, now suddenly your expenses go from $600 to $900, but did you ever think that extra $300 you got away with was due to your employees being underpaid for years?

I guess I reap the benefits of 'underpaying' my staff, but consumers benefited from it the most with the lower prices

And I didn't 'get away' with anything. The more business I have, the higher all my costs go. I don't walk away with much more money in my pocket. And I'm taking all the risks as a business owner. You damn right I should be pocketing more money. How does this not make any sense?

If everyone needed a livable wage in Vancouver, we might as well raise minimum wage to $25/ hour. Oh wait, you still can't afford shit. If you are living in Vancouver and am making minimum wage, you MIGhT want to rethink your plan to live here. It's not my problem that you can't afford it here on a minimum wage. Move to buttfuck nowhere where things cost 1/10 there cause that's all you Can afford

Or should all SMALL business owners do all the babysitting?

[MarkyMark]

That's everyone these days, "it's not my problem". Well it's not your problem until they raise it to $15 and then it is your problem. You must be doing well for yourself, your businesses did you well enough to have an investment property so your margins can't be that razor thin.

Saying even $25 isn't enough isn't an excuse to just keep things as they are. Hell might as well just lower the minimum wage even further if we're not giving a crap at all anymore.

Think of all the people that would be employed if minimum wage was $4!

[kr4l]

That's everyone these days, "it's not my problem". Well it's not your problem until they raise it to $15 and then it is your problem. You must be doing well for yourself, your businesses did you well enough to have an investment property so your margins can't be that razor thin.

Saying even $25 isn't enough isn't an excuse to just keep things as they are. Hell might as well just lower the minimum wage even further if we're not giving a crap at all anymore.

Think of all the people that would be employed if minimum wage was $4!

Maybe you should open a small business. I'd like to see what your insight is on this matter.

Just because I'm smart with my money doesn't mean I'm rich. Yes I have an investment property. So what? You don't know nothing about me and the sacrifices I take. Thank god im doing 'well'. Oh btw, I didn't buy my property cash in hand, I have a mortgage to pay on it.

I work smart and hard for what I got. If you do to, I hope you get everything you want someday. If you don't, then damn right I don't give a shit about your 'I can't afford shit on my minimum wage job'

Edit: as I mentioned before, $15 ain't my problem, it's the consumers problem. I just hope your employer raises your wage to match the rising prices of EVERYTHING

[Sid Vicious]

Maybe you should open a small business. I'd like to see what your insight is on this matter.

Just because I'm smart with my money doesn't mean I'm rich. Yes I have an investment property. So what? You don't know nothing about me and the sacrifices I take. Thank god im doing 'well'. Oh btw, I didn't buy my property cash in hand, I have a mortgage to pay on it.

I work smart and hard for what I got. If you do to, I hope you get everything you want someday. If you don't, then damn right I don't give a shit about your 'I can't afford shit on my minimum wage job'

Edit: as I mentioned before, $15 ain't my problem, it's the consumers problem. I just hope your employer raises your wage to match the rising prices of EVERYTHING

empirically, the costs of living have already been increasing while wages have remained stagnant so your argument doesnt really stand up to the statistics here

costs will rise independent of the minimum wage rising, no graph handy but a quick google search will tell you as such.

[MarkyMark]

Maybe you should open a small business. I'd like to see what your insight is on this matter.

Just because I'm smart with my money doesn't mean I'm rich. Yes I have an investment property. So what? You don't know nothing about me and the sacrifices I take. Thank god im doing 'well'. Oh btw, I didn't buy my property cash in hand, I have a mortgage to pay on it.

I work smart and hard for what I got. If you do to, I hope you get everything you want someday. If you don't, then damn right I don't give a shit about your 'I can't afford shit on my minimum wage job'

Edit: as I mentioned before, $15 ain't my problem, it's the consumers problem. I just hope your employer raises your wage to match the rising prices of EVERYTHING

If prices rise I'll adjust my spending habits just like everyone else. This is where you'll see the businesses that matter succeed, and the ones that don't go under.

[kr4l]

empirically, the costs of living have already been increasing while wages have remained stagnant so your argument doesnt really stand up to the statistics here

costs will rise independent of the minimum wage rising, no graph handy but a quick google search will tell you as such.

True, but

What about all the talk about bettering yourself?

If I was making $10/hour in 2005 when things cost x, I sure as hell hope I'm still not making $10/hour in 2015 when things cost xxxxx

By getting an education and a good job, I can then 'afford' to live here.

Edit: after really thinking about it, I think the people who will be getting hit the hardest is middle class, not even the minimum wage lower class.

[Bouncing Bettys]

http://www.epi.org/files/2013/EPI-low-wage-workers-reality-8-28-2013-2-54-01.png.948
Low-wage Workers Are Older Than You Think: 88 Percent of Workers Who Would Benefit From a Higher Minimum Wage Are Older Than 20, One Third Are Over 40 | Economic Policy Institute (http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/)

[kr4l]

If prices rise I'll adjust my spending habits just like everyone else. This is where you'll see the businesses that matter succeed, and the ones that don't go under.

But this is what I'm trying to get at. Small businesses generally speaking are the ones that offer the minimum paying 15/hr jobs. If they start closing left and right because everyone needs to adjust there spending accordingly because everything else is going up in price, then unemployment rate goes up

Small businesses rely on minimum wage workers as much as minimum wage workers rely on small businesses. It's hand in hand

[westopher]

All the same people that talk about how minimum wage earners need to work harder are the same people that complain about how their wages and businesses will suffer. Don't you see the irony in this?
Everyone should work harder to be successful.....except me.
K4rl I don't doubt you work your ass off, but like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs. Everyone else's does as well. You don't get to be immune to it. I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes.

[6o4__boi]

I find it fairly amusing that so many people are freaking out over this.
And the fact that many people who feel strongly against raising minimum wage seem to want some kinda massive economic failure just to say "HAH, told you so!" or have the tendency to bring up worst-case scenarios based entirely on emotions.

The reality is, by the time min wage goes up to 15, the economy will likely have adjusted and it's a huge IF at this point. The way things are going, the Liberals have a better chance of getting back on the pony than minimum wage going up to $15. The power-sharing agreement between the Greens and NDP is pretty much as fragile as fragile can get.

Wouldn't be surprised if by the time minimum wage does go up to $15 people will already have been bitching for a $20 minimum wage for years.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Balancing paychecks and public assistance: How higher wages would strengthen what government can do | Economic Policy Institute (http://www.epi.org/publication/wages-and-transfers/)
However, for many workers in certain sectors, wages are so low that even those who work full time must rely heavily on government assistance to make ends meet. This suggests that low pay by many employers—facilitated by weakened or inadequate labor standards, such as a low minimum wage and outdated overtime regulations—is placing unwarranted demands on public resources. As corporations achieve extraordinarily high profit levels and executive pay reaches new heights, it is appropriate to question whether employers are effectively passing off a portion of their societal responsibilities on to taxpayers.

Relying on tax-payers to fund social programs to cover the labour costs businesses should be paying, is not a good economic model in the long run. Are the low wage supporters in favour of raising taxes and focusing government funding towards social programs? Raising wages reduces the demands on these programs. I think most people would rather have a say in how their money is spent supporting the businesses they prefer, than to have higher taxes.

[kr4l]

All the same people that talk about how minimum wage earners need to work harder are the same people that complain about how their wages and businesses will suffer. Don't you see the irony in this?
Everyone should work harder to be successful.....except me.
K4rl I don't doubt you work your ass off, but like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs. Everyone else's does as well. You don't get to be immune to it. I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes.

I've never said I was immune nor have I stated my business will suffer. I've been at the bottom and have learned from my many many mistakes as a business owner what it takes to succeed (knock on wood)

I'm just saying that consumers and middle class will suffer the most. Obviously as humans, we all adapt and change what we can to survive. I'm just waiting for the "why does my shit cost 30% more' thread to pop up

Edit2: anyways, I'm done with this thread. It's like beating a dead horse over and over with the same points back and forth

[MarkyMark]

That's just the fear mongering talking. The reality is prices will go up a bit, people will get used to it, and life will go on. Nothing is going to triple in price.

Rich people love to talk about how if you tax them too much they'll just leave, because if they once made 10 million a year they sure as hell won't get out of bed for 9.8. That's the same thing, trying to scare people into backing down.

[Rallydrv]

i blame the oil prices for fucking things up, (even though ppb is low) im paying higher prices. that factors into everything. mainly cost of living as gas moves ppl/goods.

(even though inflation is low, it hasn't adjusted into negatives cause price at pump is high)

i can see a $12-13/hr rate achievable ..but not 15

[kr4l]

That's just the fear mongering talking. The reality is prices will go up a bit, people will get used to it, and life will go on. Nothing is going to triple in price.

Rich people love to talk about how if you tax them too much they'll just leave, because if they once made 10 million a year they sure as hell won't get out of bed for 9.8. That's the same thing, trying to scare people into backing down.

My bad, I meant 30%

And I'm not trying fear monger anything. This minimum wage thing will go up, if I want it to or not. I'm just stating what I think will happen when it does

And you're right, people will get used to it and life does goes on, because you don't have a choice. It's basically the same thing with the housing market too

Fuck why am I back here posting..

[MG1]

^Because you love RS logic.



You want to say your peace. That's what's so cool about places like RS. You get to hear opinions based on so many perspectives. As long as it doesn't get out of hand like it usually does.

[nah]

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.

[kr4l]

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.

You mean $40 at old spaghetti factory

[MG1]

There are people who would pay that kind of money for spaghetti, but that spaghetti better be damn good and the place better have just as good an ambience. Or, the place get's turned into a night club or something that entices the type of clientele that doesn't care about prices.

[dark0821]

I think this region is coming to a boiling point. Just saw on the news yesterday that the Italian Kitchen space on Alberni is having it's rent raised from $35k/month to $100k/month. They're moving of course, but how do people even operate based on those operating costs? That with increased minimum wage, your next dish of spaghetti is going to be $40.


the first reaction seeing this was remembering the prices of the nightclub @ trump tower...

lol....

[Blueboy222]

:troll:

[mikemhg]

I'm laughing at this race to the bottom mentality we seem to carry on this forum as well. $15 dollars? You really think that's the end of the world?

Seattle implemented this a few years back, the same sentiments were said "The restaurant industry will be doomed!!!", did any of these things happen? Nope. Business went up, the unemployment rate in Seattle is 2%. This right-wing rhetoric is always spat forward when we talk about minimum wage increases, or living wages, but statistically the real world implementation of these policies, the effect is positive, rather than negative.

Get over it.

[Digitalis]

Seattle?s minimum wage hike hurting low-level workers, study says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/26/seattle-s-minimum-wage-hike-hurting-low-level-workers-study-says.html)

[roopi]

Seattle?s minimum wage hike hurting low-level workers, study says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/26/seattle-s-minimum-wage-hike-hurting-low-level-workers-study-says.html)

Fox news is now a credible source? :lol

[Presto]

Same study, but a more detailed article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/new-study-casts-doubt-on-whether-a-15-minimum-wage-really-helps-workers/
When Seattle officials voted three years ago to incrementally boost the city's minimum wage up to $15 an hour, they'd hoped to improve the lives of low-income workers. Yet according to a major new study that could force economists to reassess past research on the issue, the hike has had the opposite effect.

The city is gradually increasing the hourly minimum to $15 over several years. Already, though, some employers have not been able to afford the increased minimums. They've cut their payrolls, putting off new hiring, reducing hours or letting their workers go, the study found.

The costs to low-wage workers in Seattle outweighed the benefits by a ratio of three to one, according to the study, conducted by a group of economists at the University of Washington who were commissioned by the city. The study, published as a working paper Monday by the National Bureau of Economic Research, has not yet been peer reviewed.

On the whole, the study estimates, the average low-wage worker in the city lost $125 a month because of the hike in the minimum.

The paper's conclusions contradict years of research on the minimum wage. Many past studies, by contrast, have found that the benefits of increases for low-wage workers exceed the costs in terms of reduced employment -- often by a factor of four or five to one.

"This strikes me as a study that is likely to influence people," said David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who was not involved in the research. He called the work "very credible" and "sufficiently compelling in its design and statistical power that it can change minds."

Yet the study will not put an end to the dispute. Experts cautioned that the effects of the minimum wage may vary according to the industries dominant in the cities where they are implemented along with overall economic conditions in the country as a whole.

And critics of the research pointed out what they saw as serious shortcomings. In particular, to avoid confusing establishments that were subject to the minimum with those that were not, the authors did not include large employers with locations both inside and outside of Seattle in their calculations. Skeptics argued that omission could explain the unusual results.

"Like, whoa, what? Where did you get this?" asked Ben Zipperer, an economist at the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute (EPI) in Washington.

"My view of the research is that it seems to work," he said. "The minimum wage in general seems to do exactly what it’s intended to do, and that’s to raise wages for low-wage workers, with little negative consequence in terms of job loss."

Economists might not readily dismiss the new study as an outlier, however. The paper published Monday makes use of more detailed data than have been available in past research, drawing on state records of wages and hours for individual employees.

As a result, the paper is likely to upend a debate that has continued among economists, politicians, businesses and labor organizers for decades. In particular, the results could exacerbate divisions among Democrats, who are seeking an economic agenda to counter President Trump's pitches for protectionism, reduced taxes and restrictions on immigration.

Meanwhile, states and cities around the country are continuing to implement increases in the minimum wage. In November, voters in Washington approved an increase in the statewide minimum to $13.50 an hour by 2020. The idea is popular in conservative states as well. In Arizona, for instance, the minimum wage will be $12 an hour in 2020 after voters there cast ballots in favor of a hike.

"If I were a Seattle lawmaker, I would be thinking hard about the $15 an hour phase-in," Autor said.

Economists have long argued that increasing the minimum wage will force some employers to let workers go. In 1994, however, economists David Card and Alan Krueger published research on minimum wages in Pennsylvania and New Jersey that contradicted this theory, motivating dozens of studies into the issue over the coming years.

Card and Krueger conducted a survey of fast-food restaurants in the two states while New Jersey was implementing an increase in the minimum wage. They found that restaurants in New Jersey had, in fact, added more workers to their payrolls more than restaurants in neighboring Pennsylvania, where the minimum wage remained constant.

Since then, economists have brought better data and more sophisticated statistical methods to bear on the question of the minimum wage, but without resolving the debate.

Their studies examined the overall numbers of workers or their annual incomes, but lacked precise information on how much workers were being paid by the hour. As a result, past research might be less reliable because the results might reflect many workers who are not paid low wages, said Jacob Vigdor, an economist at the University of Washington and one of the authors of the new study.

Their research, using detailed records from the state of Washington, addresses that problem.

"That’s really a step beyond what essentially any past studies of the minimum wage have been able to use," said Jeffrey Clemens, an economist at the University of California, San Diego who was not involved in the research.

When the authors of the study took the same approach as Card and Krueger, measuring overall employment in the restaurant industry, they found similar results. The minimum wage did not substantially affect how many people were working in the industry or how many hours they were working.

The data, however, shows that about seven in 10 workers in Seattle restaurants make more than $13 an hour, suggesting that the overall level of employment in the industry might not be a reliable guide to how the minimum wage affects workers with low pay.

Indeed, while employment overall did not change, that was because employers replaced low-paying jobs with high-paying jobs. The number of workers making over $19 an hour increased abruptly, while the number making less than that amount declined, Vigdor and his colleagues found.

Vigdor said that restaurateurs in Seattle -- along with other employers -- responded to the minimum wage by hiring more skilled and experienced workers, who might be able to produce more revenue for their firms in the same amount of time.

That hypothesis has worrisome implications for less skilled workers. While there those with more ability might be paid more, junior workers might be losing an opportunity to work their way up. "Basically, what we’re doing is we’re removing the bottom rung of the ladder," Vigdor said.

There could be another explanation for the results, however: the fact that large employers are not included. It could be that even if employers with only a single location cut payrolls, large firms expanded at the same time, giving low-wage workers other opportunities to earn money.

Other researchers have found that large employers are better able to raise wages in response to changes in the minimum. Liberal economists often argue workers have less bargaining power when negotiating their contracts at larger firms, and that as a result, employees at those companies are often underpaid in the absence of a wage floor.

"I think they underestimate hugely the wage gains, and they overestimate hugely the employment loss," said Michael Reich, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley who was part of a group that published its own study of the minimum wage in Seattle last week.

Reich's study uses more conventional methods in research on the minimum wage, relying on a publicly available federal survey. His group's data did not allow the researchers to distinguish between high- and low-wage workers at a given firm, but they were able to separate large firms' locations in Seattle from those outside the city.

Their results from the University of California accorded with past research. The minimum wage increased wages for workers in the restaurant industry, without reducing employment overall -- in contrast to the findings from the University of Washington.

"Their results are so out of the range," Reich said.

One way of explaining the disagreement could be that small businesses in Seattle have been forced to downsize in response to the increased minimum wage, while larger firms have expanded.

Yet when Vigdor and his colleagues examined the overall number of workers at small firms with a single location, they did not find that employment had decreased. That fact could could suggest that small businesses have responded to the increase not by downsizing but instead by hiring more experienced workers.

There's another explanation for the growth in high-paid jobs and the decrease in lower-paid ones. The authors of the study argue that that's occurring because employers are focusing on high-paid workers and leaving low-paid workers out, but it's possible that something far more positive is happening.

Seattle's economy is booming, and in a booming economy, more workers are likely to get raises or find jobs that pay better, and it may be that phenomenon -- of workers getting raises, promotions or better paying jobs -- that explains the shifts in the labor market the researchers see in Seattle.

Vigdor and his colleagues sought to address this problem, in essence, by constructing an index based on data from other parts of the state of Washington where local economies performed similarly to Seattle's before the increases in the hourly minimum.

Low-wage employment declined in Seattle relative to this benchmark. Even compared to parts of the state with similar economies, there was less low-wage work in Seattle, suggesting that the minimum wage might have forced employers to cut some of those positions.

The method Vigdor's group used to develop this index is on the cutting edge of economic research, but it is not perfect. It is possible that Seattle's economy simply took a different direction at the same time as the minimum wage began to increase -- even compared to economies in other places that seemed similar to Seattle's before the vote.

EPI's Zipperer argued that was the best explanation, given how pronounced the gains were for workers making more than $19 an hour.

"You’re just seeing an independent shift in the Seattle labor market toward higher wage employment," he said, calling the figures for better-paid workers "a red flag."

The broader national economy could have an effect on the results as well. In the past, noted San Diego's Clemens, increases in the minimum wage have occurred when the economy was expanding rapidly and prices are going up. Employers could expect to ask consumers to pay more and to give their workers wages anyway. Increases in the minimum wage might just have been part of the cost of doing business.

Currently, though, inflation is at historically low levels, and the minimum wage in Seattle will be indexed to inflation after it reaches $15 an hour, forcing firms to plan for the long term.

Vigdor agreed that the effects of increasing the minimum wage could differ by time and place.

"The effect of the minimum wage depends on a lot of things. It depends on where you’re starting form. It depends on what kind of economy you’re raising it in," Vigdor said. "There is no one 'the effect of the minimum wage.' "

That means that future research on the question could come to different conclusions. Vigdor said he looks forward to receiving criticisms of his group's paper and suggestions for improving their approach.

"It’s really important to emphasize it’s a work in progress," he said.

[flagella]

I'm laughing at this race to the bottom mentality we seem to carry on this forum as well. $15 dollars? You really think that's the end of the world?

Seattle implemented this a few years back, the same sentiments were said "The restaurant industry will be doomed!!!", did any of these things happen? Nope. Business went up, the unemployment rate in Seattle is 2%. This right-wing rhetoric is always spat forward when we talk about minimum wage increases, or living wages, but statistically the real world implementation of these policies, the effect is positive, rather than negative.

Get over it.

Did you seriously just compare Seattle with Vancouver? Vancouver isn't even in the same league with Seattle and the sizes of the companies that are based in each city isn't even remotely close. If you knew anything about Vancouver, the employment in this city is largely supported by SMEs (small and medium sized enterprises) which will be most impacted by the rise in minimum wages. If you knew anything about the banking scene in Vancouver, it's the mid-market banking that dominates the banking activities. Goodness, if you use Seattle as a benchmark to study for the impact of higher minimum wage, you are fucking doomed to fail right off the bat. Your post is monumentally stupid, period.

Also, what does the low unemployment of 2% have anything to do with their implementation of higher minimum wage? Is there some sort of credible study you found that links these two? The tech scene is strong in Seattle with behemoth like Amazon substantially increasing employment there. BC's record low unemployment rate is driven by jobs that are much lower in quality.

As usual, a dumb post like this is thanked by other dumbasses. Westopher is like a fucking saint in every thread, boasting about his problem-solving skills and, here in this thread his ability adapt to the new higher minimum wage as a chef. The chef is even willing to wash dishes to survive. If you take a step back and really read that, that's just fucking laughable because if you need to wash dishes to survive as a chef, you should change your career. I'd shake your hand in real life and commend you for your conviction to continue to slave away in the kitchen, saving every penny for your next dream BMW. You know, I think it's pretty cruel to discriminate people by their profession, but certain people should really refrain from commenting in this thread.

Will the rise in minimum wage fuck up this city? Perhaps not, but I expect people to be genuinely concerned about it, especially any SME owners. Stop coming back with shitty empty statements like "adapt or die." :rofl: Businesses don't need you to tell them to adapt. They will fucking adapt, and it could even come at the cost of minimum wage earners by slashing jobs. After taking into account of the lost jobs, it's difficult to project if the average min. wage will be a net gain or loss.

[sugar_frost69]

so how much does a Taylor and sewing factory machine worker makes?
checking for my mom

[westopher]

Did you seriously just compare Seattle with Vancouver? Vancouver isn't even in the same league with Seattle and the sizes of the companies that are based in each city isn't even remotely close. If you knew anything about Vancouver, the employment in this city is largely supported by SMEs (small and medium sized enterprises) which will be most impacted by the rise in minimum wages. If you knew anything about the banking scene in Vancouver, it's the mid-market banking that dominates the banking activities. Goodness, if you use Seattle as a benchmark to study for the impact of higher minimum wage, you are fucking doomed to fail right off the bat. Your post is monumentally stupid, period.

Also, what does the low unemployment of 2% have anything to do with their implementation of higher minimum wage? Is there some sort of credible study you found that links these two? The tech scene is strong in Seattle with behemoth like Amazon substantially increasing employment there. BC's record low unemployment rate is driven by jobs that are much lower in quality.

As usual, a dumb post like this is thanked by other dumbasses. Westopher is like a fucking saint in every thread, boasting about his problem-solving skills and, here in this thread his ability adapt to the new higher minimum wage as a chef. The chef is even willing to wash dishes to survive. If you take a step back and really read that, that's just fucking laughable because if you need to wash dishes to survive as a chef, you should change your career. I'd shake your hand in real life and commend you for your conviction to continue to slave away in the kitchen, saving every penny for your next dream BMW. You know, I think it's pretty cruel to discriminate people by their profession, but certain people should really refrain from commenting in this thread.

Will the rise in minimum wage fuck up this city? Perhaps not, but I expect people to be genuinely concerned about it, especially any SME owners. Stop coming back with shitty empty statements like "adapt or die." :rofl: Businesses don't need you to tell them to adapt. They will fucking adapt, and it could even come at the cost of minimum wage earners by slashing jobs. After taking into account of the lost jobs, it's difficult to project if the average min. wage will be a net gain or loss.
Are you still pissed off about shovels?
What does my career have to do with my ability to comment on this? I'm doing just fine bud.
If I can't succeed at what I do, that means I will quit and wash dishes for $15 dollars an hour, because that will be the new minimum wage. I'm not talking about "doing dishes to survive at what I do." How fucking dense are you? You could have replaced dishwasher with, barista, superstore stock boy, etc. It has nothing to do with my current line of work, which I do just fine with.
I don't know why I bother even responding to you, since you are one of the most ridiculous people on this forum. After watching you lose your fucking mind daily about shovels being out of stock, its clear you can't really figure shit out.

[flagella]

Are you still pissed off about shovels?
What does my career have to do with my ability to comment on this? I'm doing just fine bud.
If I can't succeed at what I do, that means I will quit and wash dishes for $15 dollars an hour, because that will be the new minimum wage. I'm not talking about "doing dishes to survive at what I do." How fucking dense are you? You could have replaced dishwasher with, barista, superstore stock boy, etc. It has nothing to do with my current line of work, which I do just fine with.
I don't know why I bother even responding to you, since you are one of the most ridiculous people on this forum. After watching you lose your fucking mind daily about shovels being out of stock, its clear you can't really figure shit out.

lol, I'm at loss for words. Your every comment should be replied with "no shit, sherlock" given how empty it is. Do you ever read what you type?

"like it or not, your business will need to adapt to growing costs." well, no shit sherlock.

"I'll have to adapt. I'm happy to. If I can't, I'll go wash dishes." well, no shit sherlock, people have to do something to live. I should add though, in this case, you'll need to sell your house too with your dishwashing job.

[westopher]

Wow did you invent that cool saying? If you don't get anything from my posts, just fucking block me. They aren't running out of internet in here. It seems like I have to explain things quite in depth to you for how smart you are.
Also, @15 bucks an hour, I won't even have to sell my place.:hay:

[flagella]

Wow did you invent that cool saying? If you don't get anything from my posts, just fucking block me. They aren't running out of internet in here. It seems like I have to explain things quite in depth to you for how smart you are.
Also, @15 bucks an hour, I won't even have to sell my place.:hay:

What did you exactly explain with your empty comments again?

That's fantastic you don't need to sell. Better thank your wife.

[Sid Vicious]

Same study, but a more detailed article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/new-study-casts-doubt-on-whether-a-15-minimum-wage-really-helps-workers/

2-3 years isnt really a long enough time to gather enough information to make any meaninginful insights

i mean, this 78 year study showed no correlation between federal min wage hikes and and job losses
http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/NELP-Data-Brief-Raise-Wages-Kill-Jobs-No-Correlation.pdf

with inflation and prices increasing independent of the min wage, $15 in 2019 will probably be worth less than what $10 was in 2012 lol

[BIC_BAWS]

2-3 years isnt really a long enough time to gather enough information to make any meaninginful insights

i mean, this 78 year study showed no correlation between federal min wage hikes and and job losses
http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/NELP-Data-Brief-Raise-Wages-Kill-Jobs-No-Correlation.pdf

While I'm not disputing the validity of a 78 year study, it should be mentioned that 78 years is a long time. That study would be looking at the long term effects, which like you said, showed no correlation.

So from that, we know that businesses won't be royally fucked for life. But it'll probably still be pretty rough for the short term period (2-3 years in this case, usually 5 years).

I think it's important to recognize that there are very imminent short-term effects to the Vancouver market, since (like Flagella said) we are made up of mostly SMEs.

Side note: Seattle pay is actually a lot better than Vancouver pay, even when you look at relative costs.

[Sid Vicious]

While I'm not disputing the validity of a 78 year study, it should be mentioned that 78 years is a long time. That study would be looking at the long term effects, which like you said, showed no correlation.

So from that, we know that businesses won't be royally fucked for life. But it'll probably still be pretty rough for the short term period (2-3 years in this case, usually 5 years).

I think it's important to recognize that there are very imminent short-term effects to the Vancouver market, since (like Flagella said) we are made up of mostly SMEs.

Side note: Seattle pay is actually a lot better than Vancouver pay, even when you look at relative costs.

right, but like i said before, i doubt the real value of $15 in 2019 is all that much higher than $10 in 2012

[Bouncing Bettys]

people have to do something to live.
Indeed they do. But a living wage is out of the question?

Big business has used globalization to drive down wages, break up unions, ship jobs overseas, hide profits and taxable income offshore, and so on for short-sighted greed. Increasing the minimum wage to a livable wage is a drop in the bucket to the negative effects and costs to society these practices have brought about. Unfortunately, small business is caught in the middle. They may want to exercise responsible business practices and provide living wages, but they are at the whim of Big Business. They should be directing their political efforts towards reigning in Big Business, not siding with them and attacking the people least able to fight for themselves. Big Business is more than happy to watch us all fight over their table scraps.

[RRxtar]

You guys understand that small business employers employ about 55% of the private sector work force in british columbia?


Sticking it to big business, with a few small businesses caught in the middle is so fucking backwards.

We should be doing whatever we can to support small businesses as a priority. Not put their concerns secondary to an intent to hurt big business.

I think the general consensus is that most of us believe big business can absorb a minimum wage increase either thru changing staffing, or more likely increasing technology/automation, and that small businesses will have to adapt and will probably suffer as a result.

[heisenberg]

so to summarize this thread so far

- minimum wage is going to $15
- people wont be encouraged to go to school
- people who worked hard in the past to get wage increases now means shit
- labour goes up = cost of goods go up = small businesses go out of business
- people comparing living wage and minimum wage
- people will lose jobs because staff cost is too high
- a lot of animosity towards uneducated workers making close to livable wages
- people who want more money should further themselves with schooling
- people want to stop tipping
- bottom 10% of staff now getting paid equivalent to the top 20% / middle 70%
- work for what you want no matter the cost
- everyone should just work harder
- constant comparing of top ranked employees making living wage and new employees making slightly less than them
- people forgetting that people are people and need to make money at the end of the day
- employees making $15 after the raise should work harder and earn it
- hire less people, make the current people work harder
- business could go up, because people can afford new adventures
- businesses are currently ditching shitty employees cause their current ones can work twice as hard, because they're being paid to
- constant comparing dish washers to cooks and chefs
- $15/hr is a consumer problem
- people are butt hurt over non-educated, non-hardworking people, making the same as educated and hardworking people
- adapt or die
- people comparing us to other countries / states

im gonna babble off and on topic.

my last two jobs, have been night and day.
currently i work in a kitchen making 12.25/hr + 2/hr in tips, with 2nd year schooling related to the field.
after working full time i make roughly $960 a paycheck, and after taxes and deductions i make $850, about $100 towards taxes and ei and shit.
i used to work parks and rec under the city of vancouver, making $20.98/hr with no formal education, skills, oh ya, and i was in highschool.
all i had for me, was i was mature and a good worker. working full time i'd make 1700, but after taxes it was more like $1200. thats $500 towards shit I didnt know about at the time.

so constantly saying, you need school and this and need to be a hard worker will get you more $/hr, isnt always right. its all about the opportunities you make for yourself.
and making more money isnt always a good thing. lets take my city job for example, if i continued that trend for a whole year, i'd make like $45k, but after taxes its more like $29, thats 15k difference.
now with the kitchen, lets round it up to $2k a month, $24k a year and after taxes, something closer to $22k. higher paying jobs for me, lead to less money in my pocket in a sense.

hopefully this gets you guys thinking of the person it will be affecting. not everyone on RS drives nice cars and works cool jobs making them bank..

and another note, everyone knows the saying "time is money", and i believe this saying is true.
lets say you work 2 hours, and make after taxes 16-30/hr. do any of you look at what you will purchase and be like hmm... that cost me 2 hours of my life, is it really worth it now.
after my first paycheque i started to look at life differently, everything didn't cost a numeral value to me, it cost me a percentage of my life i'll never get back, because time is money. and time is something you'll never be able to get back.
this whole thought process changed the way i thought about life, my spending habbits and purchases. everything you acquire in life has an equivalent exchange, and that is time.
so tying this together with the $15/hr thing, ya costs of goods will go up, your spending habits might not.

after reading my own post i dont even know what im talking about, im just babbling on lol.

[Jmac]

I'm 99% certain that $29k > $22k

[heisenberg]

it is, i agree with you. i knew this would come up.

would you rather make $45k a year doing what you absolutely love, or $60k a year, dreading work everyday?

edit: i would look at my t4's at the end of the year and be like how the fuck did i make $xx,xxx, i dont recall spending that much money, and realize wow i got taxed about 30% off every paycheque

[N.V.M.]

it is, i agree with you. i knew this would come up.

would you rather make $45k a year doing what you absolutely love, or $60k a year, dreading work everyday?

edit: i would look at my t4's at the end of the year and be like how the fuck did i make $xx,xxx, i dont recall spending that much money, and realize wow i got taxed about 30% off every paycheque

and then you get taxed on everything you buy with the remaining money.

[MarkyMark]

Yeah taxes are great, and soon that car that you paid taxes on, that you fill up with more taxes every week, and maintain with even more taxes, will soon be taxed again for driving on the roads that taxes paid for.

[westopher]

Taxes are the perfect tool here to help level the playing field. Tax benefits for small businesses (based on the small businesses profit/loss x number of employees) would be the way to soften the blow.
Where does the tax money we need come from now you ask? Well. For a start Canada could actually start punishing those involved in the billions of tax evasion each year. They can raise taxes for large corporations.
WE can also do our part by supporting small businesses and not scouring around for the cheapest shit product. Buy your coffee at K4rl's coffee shop(?) instead of starbucks. I know I would.

[BIC_BAWS]

I'm 99% certain that $29k > $22k
I think the argument is that for less effort and hourly wage, there was only a $7K difference. Is it worth it? Tho I'd like to think that restaurant work isn't easy either.

Edit: Did not see there was a next page (on Tapatalk)

[Hondaracer]

there are very few if any cases where making enough money to push you into a higher tax bracket nets you less overall after tax income.

[westopher]

He's not saying that though. He's saying he's happier making less and doing what he wants to do, and that the real world gap of income is much smaller than his gross income.

[BIC_BAWS]

He's not saying that though. He's saying he's happier making less and doing what he wants to do, and that the real world gap of income is much smaller than his gross income.
I realize that now. But I can't delete a post, nor will I, since I'm a strong believer of transparency.

[Jmac]

I'm aware, but he did state "higher paying jobs for me, lead to less money in my pocket" which is generally not true. Better perks, medical and dental coverage, pension, etc. can certainly mean a lower salary/wage job may indeed lead to more money in your pocket.

I thought his point was that an education doesn't necessarily equate to a higher-paying job (in his case, he was getting paid more for the job that required no education).

[Jmac]

I think the argument is that for less effort and hourly wage, there was only a $7K difference. Is it worth it? Tho I'd like to think that restaurant work isn't easy either.

Edit: Did not see there was a next page (on Tapatalk)
A $7K difference in take home pay is $583/month or 31.8% more take home income. That's pretty substantial to most people.

[BIC_BAWS]

A $7K difference in take home pay is $583/month or 31.8% more take home income. That's pretty substantial to most people.
Yes, I agree. My point is that to some people the more time and effort spent may not be worth more money.

[westopher]

I realize that now. But I can't delete a post, nor will I, since I'm a strong believer of transparency.
I was just responding to hondaracer there.

[heisenberg]

can I add in my tips or is that too late? In a year I'll make 6k in tips or so. the city job was stressful, that's why I work in a kitchen lol. have any of you ever had a stranger tell you that they're your boss because they pay taxes and that's how I was getting paid.

[Jmac]

can I add in my tips or is that too late? In a year I'll make 6k in tips or so. the city job was stressful, that's why I work in a kitchen lol. have any of you ever had a stranger tell you that they're your boss because they pay taxes and that's how I was getting paid.
I work in health care ... so several times a month, yes.

[BIC_BAWS]

Bumping this thread after seeing this article: 60,000 jobs lost by 2019 due to minimum wage increase: Bank of Canada (https://globalnews.ca/news/3944598/60000-jobs-lost-minimum-wage-increase/?utm_source=GlobalEdmonton&utm_medium=Facebook)

The Bank of Canada estimates there will be about 60,000 fewer jobs by 2019 due to the increases in minimum wages across the country, but that labour income will be higher due to the increases.

[stewie]

can I add in my tips or is that too late? In a year I'll make 6k in tips or so. the city job was stressful, that's why I work in a kitchen lol. have any of you ever had a stranger tell you that they're your boss because they pay taxes and that's how I was getting paid.

Yes. On almost a daily basis :p
They pay their taxes and the tax payer is always right! A lot of those phone calls involve me just sitting there laughing on the inside while I listen to them ramble. :)
(City worker)

[Traum]

Was thinking about this thread as well when I saw the news this morning:

Franchises owned by children of Tim Hortons founders reduce employee benefits - NEWS 1130 (http://www.news1130.com/2018/01/03/tim-hortons-franchisees-cut-back-staff-perks-after-minimum-wage-hike/)

This is in Ontario, not BC. But still, the entire atmosphere and underlying message is just the same.

[welfare]

^^love the comment in that article.
"So cruel. Will not go to Tim Hortons until reversed". Moron

Is BC even getting a wage increase like Alberta or Ontario?

[BIC_BAWS]

Is BC even getting a wage increase like Alberta or Ontario?

I believe it's an election promise (one that I hope they don't fullfil) + proposed plan I haven't heard anything about it since I posted this thread earlier last year.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[jackal]

here are my .02 cents real quick.
i'm a small business owner some might say medium business owner.
i currently employ 44 people and run a restaurant.
my wages range from 11.5 up to 17.50

i don't care if min wages went up to 30 an hour but i can promise that the day after all my pricing will scale accordingly. realistically for people earning minimum wage i can see how a bump in pay can help them in certain aspects of their lives. i think its fair to assume that even if minimum wages increased by 20% inflation would claw back a decent portion of that increase.

imo the people that get really hit hard are the people earning in the 15-25/ hour range. it's very unlikely that people in that range will see any significant increase in pay and after price inflation more then likely will be far worse off then before a large min wage hike. min wage needs to rise but imo it needs to be gradual. i would also have little issue with tying min wage to inflation. (also assuming if we ever went into recession then min wage has the potential to drop) although i'm no economist, maybe this is a recipe for long term hyper inflation.

oh one other point. i would really like the training wage to come back. not 500 hours but realistically it takes probably 100-150 hours of me having to overstaff in order to get someone up to speed and not need help constantly. the number of dollars wasted training young or inexperienced employees in my line of work is honestly mind boggling.

[FerrariEnzo]

Bottom line, people get taxed more so government can get more money...

[jackal]

^As previously stated, if your business tanks because of an extra $4 an hour you have to pay an employee, you're doing something wrong to begin with.

i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours

so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount

[welfare]

Ahhh. Just what BC needs. More inflation

[westopher]

i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours

so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount
Agreed. That’s substantial. What sort of profits are you making, what sort of money do you take home at the end of the year, and what sort of gross income does your business bring in?
That paints the whole picture if people really want to determine if that’s a negative or a positive.
Also, what are your plans to adapt, and what are the tasks that these minimum wage workers are performing?

[minoru_tanaka]

Ahhh. Just what BC needs. More inflation
Fight fire with fire right?

[MSREE]

Minimum wage increase would definitely help me as I havent worked in over a year and looking for something small to try and get back into the work force while simultaneously healing. I predict I wont be well enough for at least another 6 months to a year to actively look for full time work.
Cost of living is outrageous here. I live with my hubby and our rent is still relatively low at $800/mo. But if we ever wanted to move? Everything on CG is at least 1K/mo and being a 1 income household that extra $200/mo can go a long way like cover my medication etc.

As for the opinion of people bettering themselves, that really is dependent on the individual entirely. I cant work in some fields due to the my health so I wont be applying for things that are hazardous to my overall well being. As much as I would have loved to go to school to have a career, my family couldnt afford it and now im sick I cant for myself either. Its shitty but its the card that got dealt. So now I have to look for other ways to produce income, maybe learn new skills and create small businesses I can run from home. If I get better, i do want to try and have a family but only if im able to tap into something i love doing that also generates income. For the most part, i think most young adults here in Van will strive to have good careers if they plan on buying a home or just want to keep up with the Vancouver lifestyle.

Tbh, if people are working even menial jobs....thats better than having people in the DTES who drink and do drugs out in the open all day every day and relying on social assistance, dont you think?

[68style]

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.

I will check the guy's name and organization when I go home and update this post if anyone wants to check it out. I know my eyes were opened as to what's actually being done.

[kr4l]

here are my .02 cents real quick.
i'm a small business owner some might say medium business owner.
i currently employ 44 people and run a restaurant.
my wages range from 11.5 up to 17.50

i don't care if min wages went up to 30 an hour but i can promise that the day after all my pricing will scale accordingly. realistically for people earning minimum wage i can see how a bump in pay can help them in certain aspects of their lives. i think its fair to assume that even if minimum wages increased by 20% inflation would claw back a decent portion of that increase.

imo the people that get really hit hard are the people earning in the 15-25/ hour range. it's very unlikely that people in that range will see any significant increase in pay and after price inflation more then likely will be far worse off then before a large min wage hike. min wage needs to rise but imo it needs to be gradual. i would also have little issue with tying min wage to inflation. (also assuming if we ever went into recession then min wage has the potential to drop) although i'm no economist, maybe this is a recipe for long term hyper inflation.

oh one other point. i would really like the training wage to come back. not 500 hours but realistically it takes probably 100-150 hours of me having to overstaff in order to get someone up to speed and not need help constantly. the number of dollars wasted training young or inexperienced employees in my line of work is honestly mind boggling.

Finally, someone who understands me *hugs*

[Infiniti]

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.

I will check the guy's name and organization when I go home and update this post if anyone wants to check it out. I know my eyes were opened as to what's actually being done.

Not to discount the programs this particular gentleman is referring to, but the vast majority of people in the DTES are not your average "down on your luck" types. These are individuals with severe addictions and/or mental health problems.
While I applaud the ongoing efforts that are taking place, and the involvement of individuals such as the guy you mentioned, the concept of reintegration for many DTES persons has to be approached in a different manner. Addiction and mental health issues are severe impediments to an individual's ability at becoming a functional member of society. One needs to overcome their addiction before they are fit enough to undertake any regular type of commitment to employment. One needs to stabilize their mental health symptoms before they can properly function in some type of workplace environment.
I suppose the bigger questions I have are: is there anyway to actually stem the tide of the so-called DTES epidemic? Bear in mind, everyday new people join the ranks of addict/homeless in the DTES. These individuals are people from the GVRD, greater BC, and the rest of Canada. The scale of this problem is way beyond anything we already have in place. In order to properly address this problem would require a significant boost to resources, which I doubt the public is ready to support.
Second, clearly the "war on drugs" has failed. Just look to our neighbours to the south. Should we legalize everything? I am no expert, but drugs aren't going away. Its a losing battle, one for which we have no answer. This is evident as the problem has grown, and has not subsided at all.

[MSREE]

I watched a presentation recently by an absolutely wonderful older gentleman that's heavily involved in community outreach, there's a staggering number of programs in Vancouver just to help people in disadvantaged situations or from the DTES get work... if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society. Even the casino that's now part of Rogers Arena, as part of its construction agreement with the City of Vancouver, must employ a certain percentage of its staff from the DTES... and there are so many workshops this man sponsors for people to make arts and crafts and other things to build businesses into viable incomes or get into catering companies to learn how to run a business and whatnot.

It's quite impressive actually. It really makes me wonder about these morons who put up tents and squat for free housing and make signs asking for money... there is actually a TONNE of help available that we don't even know about and that the city actively promotes from within into almost every new project that is being constructed in downtown.


Yep I can confirm that. I ran an office dt for temp work. We paid $13 base and if you were a skilled trades worker it was $15+. All they needed to do was show up in long pants and work and theyd get paid same day at 3pm by cheque.
Most people living in DTES rely on social assistance. So on welfare day, temp agencies and construction takes a huge hit the whole week. Welfare day is also the day of the month where the most reported overdoses/drug related deaths happen. There is work available for those who are willing, but for many drugs/alcohol take priority. Even for the shelters in DT, they require no drug paraphernalia and you cant be high/drunk....but many will choose to sleep on the street. Alot of temp agencies do heavy marketing too, so they provide extras to keep people coming back. Some even do deals with pubs, like get a free meal if you work consecutively for a week, things like that. There are a ton of people who are able to work, but in DTES Welfare week is known as "Mardi Gras" .... Everybody just gets blitzed cuz they can on the govts $.

[BIC_BAWS]

i currently employ 44 people and run a restaurant.
my wages range from 11.5 up to 17.50
Average pay = $14.50
i just thought i would give a real number to this statement. from dec 1st to dec 15th i paid out 2716.25 employee hours
so on an increase of $4 /hour i'm looking at paying out 10865 more per pay period. 282490 more per year. that's not a small amount
Finding the average pay cheque paid per employee:
2716.25 monthly hours / 44 employees = 61.73hrs/employee
61.73hrs/employee x $14.50 avg hourly rate = $895.09

If you were to find how many more employees he could pay for with that increase:
$10,865 / $895.09 = 12.14 more employees

If we assume jackal can only afford the increase of $10,865/mo, and would have otherwise contributed that by hiring more, that’s 12 employees per pay period that he could have hired, but now would not as that money has been given to the 44 existing employees.

Minimum wage increase would definitely help me as I havent worked in over a year and looking for something small to try and get back into the work force while simultaneously healing. I predict I wont be well enough for at least another 6 months to a year to actively look for full time work.
Try contract work, they usually have low requirements and it’s a good way to get back into the workforce.
Tbh, if people are working even menial jobs....thats better than having people in the DTES who drink and do drugs out in the open all day every day and relying on social assistance, dont you think?
Those menial jobs are readily available, like 68Style said, “if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society”. Of course they have to sort out their addictions and issues first.

BUT do you really think employers would be incentivized to hire people when the minimum wage goes up? By the above scenario calculations, it could have paid for 12 more employees, not to including the additional training costs (below) that comes associated with hiring (while not including all hiring costs).
realistically it takes probably 100-150 hours of me having to overstaff in order to get someone up to speed.
125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire

Edit: If we were thinking of a business or white collared industry, I suspect the effect of a min wage increase would be that companies would work their existing employees harder and contract the work out more often. Yay! Contracted work = more pay for sub-contractors! Nope. That's only if you assume that these sub-contractors are only doing 1 contract and can take on the job themselves without additional resources. This increase would effectively move the labour cost for the company onto the sub-contractor, while cost of work for the company would be the same as before. Does this get people more jobs? Would the subcontractors start a company to hire more people to take on the jobs? Unlikely.

[freakshow]

I want my son to start working ASAP to learn about responsibility. There is no way he is going to be worth $15 an hour when he is 15 years old, or whatever the minimum working age is.. All the minimum wage law does is prevent him from gaining experience sooner than he otherwise could have.

[quasi]

125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire



It's even more then that, I know our burdens where I work (CPP, UIC, WCB, Vac & Stat Pay) are 22.08% (obviously varies company to company) but you have to tack something on.

[Hondaracer]

Drive through the DTES on a hot summer day and you won’t feel sorry for most of them anymore. Especially the natives down there.

[Rallydrv]

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.

[Traum]

It's even more then that, I know our burdens where I work (CPP, UIC, WCB, Vac & Stat Pay) are 22.08% (obviously varies company to company) but you have to tack something on.
^^ ~20 - 25%-ish sounds about right for additional costs on top of salaries.

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.
Personally, I wouldn't expect the US tax cuts to be too long lived. As soon as Trump gets replaced in the next election by whichever Democrat that won the primaries, I'd expect the new gov to at least revise that back to a higher tax rate, although not necessarily what the old rate once was. The tax cut is costing the US gov big $$$$$ and everybody knows it. For any seasoned veteran business person to not see through that seems a bit odd.

[Mr.HappySilp]

All these talk about increasing min wage people have then though about how this would push more business to use AI and robots to take over the current job. Don't believe me. Just look at McDonalds, Superstore, Shoppers, Price smart, A&W etc etc. A lot of cashier are replace by self-serve check out. I see so many cashier are replace already and as AI gets better and better more jobs are going to replace. Even office jobs are being replace. Accountant, Lawyers, Financial advisor, Investment advisor, Real estate, marketing advisor etc etc.

As AI gets better and better it will be able to perform better the human for min wage jobs and gets cheaper as well. So the big crop will use more and more AI while the medium business still start using AI as well once the price is cheap enough. So you have small business who can't afford AI to increase production while paying more. Starting small business will only get harder and harder.

[westopher]

Minimum wage is not the difference in AI taking over. 0 dollars salary will be lower than whatever minimum wage is. Long term investment in automation always makes sense from a profitability perspective when it comes to simple shit like taking cash for barcode/menu items

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ I guess I am trying to say is that as min wage raises it makes more sense for big crop to apply more AI to help reduce their button line to save cost in the long run thus causing more min wage jobs to be replace at a faster rate.

[westopher]

I think most of the companies doing it are firing on all cylinders with it already for the most part, but I see what you are getting at.
We will need to look at living wages for the unemployed if we don’t want to be a third world country for when that happens, so sorry to be the bearer of bad news for those that are afraid of taxes, and covering for poor people. Everything will only get worse from here. Time for massive tax breaks for small businesses that employ multiple people, and time to fuck corporations with taxes that push for automation.

[kr4l]

All these talk about increasing min wage people have then though about how this would push more business to use AI and robots to take over the current job. Don't believe me. Just look at McDonalds, Superstore, Shoppers, Price smart, A&W etc etc. A lot of cashier are replace by self-serve check out. I see so many cashier are replace already and as AI gets better and better more jobs are going to replace. Even office jobs are being replace. Accountant, Lawyers, Financial advisor, Investment advisor, Real estate, marketing advisor etc etc.

As AI gets better and better it will be able to perform better the human for min wage jobs and gets cheaper as well. So the big crop will use more and more AI while the medium business still start using AI as well once the price is cheap enough. So you have small business who can't afford AI to increase production while paying more. Starting small business will only get harder and harder.

What I don’t understand is why are you guys still relating a minimum wage hike to multi million dollar businesses? They don’t give a shit about the minimum wage because it will not effect them.

Open your minds a little. The small businesses out there that will be effected. You know, the people that actually have to work there ass off

[welfare]

Yep I can confirm that. I ran an office dt for temp work. We paid $13 base and if you were a skilled trades worker it was $15+. All they needed to do was show up in long pants and work and theyd get paid same day at 3pm by cheque.
Most people living in DTES rely on social assistance. So on welfare day, temp agencies and construction takes a huge hit the whole week. Welfare day is also the day of the month where the most reported overdoses/drug related deaths happen. There is work available for those who are willing, but for many drugs/alcohol take priority. Even for the shelters in DT, they require no drug paraphernalia and you cant be high/drunk....but many will choose to sleep on the street. Alot of temp agencies do heavy marketing too, so they provide extras to keep people coming back. Some even do deals with pubs, like get a free meal if you work consecutively for a week, things like that. There are a ton of people who are able to work, but in DTES Welfare week is known as "Mardi Gras" .... Everybody just gets blitzed cuz they can on the govts $.

Huh. Almost as if these dependency programs perpetuate the problem.

I think most of the companies doing it are firing on all cylinders with it already for the most part, but I see what you are getting at.
We will need to look at living wages for the unemployed if we don’t want to be a third world country for when that happens, so sorry to be the bearer of bad news for those that are afraid of taxes, and covering for poor people. Everything will only get worse from here. Time for massive tax breaks for small businesses that employ multiple people, and time to fuck corporations with taxes that push for automation.

So you have no problem with the government stealing money to dole out to those who choose not to work, so long as they're stealing it from companies that employ tens to hundreds of thousands of employees?

Jobs become obsolete, and other jobs are created. That's the way it's always been. The market is in constant flux.
Like I've said before, Canada is on course to hit a massive labor shortage, so the idea that the jobs are disappearing has no backing.

And what is with this animosity I'm seeing everywhere lately about CEO's and how many millions they earn? Like that's some Injustice?
And why don't I see the same animosity towards professional athletes who earn millions? They don't employ tens of thousands of people.
You wanna make millions? Become a CEO. It really is that simple. Canada ranks third in the world for income mobility. I am so tired of hearing this inequality nonsense. If you can't do it here, you either didn't want it enough, or you weren't smart enough. That's the cold truth.
There is a huge difference between equal treatment and forced egalitarianism.

with wage increases here and corporate tax cuts in the states /fear of NAFTA. more incentive for manufacturing jobs to move shops to US. Already quite a few medium size manufacturing business are being poached by various US states giving more incentive to move.

Exactly. Canada is moving in the complete opposite direction with it's number one trading partner. Small fish in a big pond.

[Mr.HappySilp]

What I don’t understand is why are you guys still relating a minimum wage hike to multi million dollar businesses? They don’t give a shit about the minimum wage because it will not effect them.

Open your minds a little. The small businesses out there that will be effected. You know, the people that actually have to work there ass off

Maybe you should reread what I wrote. Did I disagree about raising min wage? I was merely pointing out with min wage increase more and more big crop will be looking at AI to replace as many min wage workers as possible. Small and medium size business don't have the financial backing to do that so they end paying more to their workers.

LOL if multi million dollar business don't care about min wage they wouldn't be investing more into AI and having them take over. Look around some of the major big crop chain such as Superstore, McDonalds, Wal-mart, Aamazon, Rogers, Telus etc etc and see what they have done to cut back on min wage workers with AI.

Big Crop hires a lot more people than your medium or small business. A lot more. Is a lose lose situation. Don't raise min wage and people complain yet jobs might be replace by AI later. Raise min wage and a lot of people lose their job faster since it will push big crop to invest more in AI. Those who can keep their min wage job will make more money but for how long?

I don't have the answer on how we can solve this issue. Seems like a lot of jobs are replace already by AI and robots already. I read an article somewhere that predicted in the next 20 years half of the jobs globally will be replace by AI and robots. So what's going to happen? Should those who lost their jobs just starve to death, how will the gov react to it? More EI?More low income assistant? universal wage? who will pay for universal wage? More tax to crop to pay for universal wage? I think the gov or society needs to look and plan for the future since this model of min wage isn't working and is bound to fail in the future.

[kr4l]

Maybe you should reread what I wrote. Did I disagree about raising min wage? I was merely pointing out with min wage increase more and more big crop will be looking at AI to replace as many min wage workers as possible. Small and medium size business don't have the financial backing to do that so they end paying more to their workers.

LOL if multi million dollar business don't care about min wage they wouldn't be investing more into AI and having them take over. Look around some of the major big crop chain such as Superstore, McDonalds, Wal-mart, Aamazon, Rogers, Telus etc etc and see what they have done to cut back on min wage workers with AI.

Big Crop hires a lot more people than your medium or small business. A lot more. Is a lose lose situation. Don't raise min wage and people complain yet jobs might be replace by AI later. Raise min wage and a lot of people lose their job faster since it will push big crop to invest more in AI. Those who can keep their min wage job will make more money but for how long?

I don't have the answer on how we can solve this issue. Seems like a lot of jobs are replace already by AI and robots already. I read an article somewhere that predicted in the next 20 years half of the jobs globally will be replace by AI and robots. So what's going to happen? Should those who lost their jobs just starve to death, how will the gov react to it? More EI?More low income assistant? universal wage? who will pay for universal wage? More tax to crop to pay for universal wage? I think the gov or society needs to look and plan for the future since this model of min wage isn't working and is bound to fail in the future.

I reread what you wrote and the only thing I can say, is that you need to add some sentence structure. It’s very hard to read.

Again, please stop comparing a small business like mine to ROGERS, TELUS, MCDONALDS, and AAMAZON!!

[Jmac]

You'd have to know the wage of each of the 44 employees to know the average wage.

Could be 43 people making $11.50/hour and 1 person making $17.50/hour for all we know.
Average pay = $14.50

Finding the average pay cheque paid per employee:
2716.25 monthly hours / 44 employees = 61.73hrs/employee
61.73hrs/employee x $14.50 avg hourly rate = $895.09

If you were to find how many more employees he could pay for with that increase:
$10,865 / $895.09 = 12.14 more employees

If we assume jackal can only afford the increase of $10,865/mo, and would have otherwise contributed that by hiring more, that’s 12 employees per pay period that he could have hired, but now would not as that money has been given to the 44 existing employees.


Try contract work, they usually have low requirements and it’s a good way to get back into the workforce.

Those menial jobs are readily available, like 68Style said, “if you see them on the street begging for money, they are simply not even trying at all to participate in society”. Of course they have to sort out their addictions and issues first.

BUT do you really think employers would be incentivized to hire people when the minimum wage goes up? By the above scenario calculations, it could have paid for 12 more employees, not to including the additional training costs (below) that comes associated with hiring (while not including all hiring costs).

125 avg overstaff hours * $14.50 avg hourly rate = $1,812.50 per new hire

Edit: If we were thinking of a business or white collared industry, I suspect the effect of a min wage increase would be that companies would work their existing employees harder and contract the work out more often. Yay! Contracted work = more pay for sub-contractors! Nope. That's only if you assume that these sub-contractors are only doing 1 contract and can take on the job themselves without additional resources. This increase would effectively move the labour cost for the company onto the sub-contractor, while cost of work for the company would be the same as before. Does this get people more jobs? Would the subcontractors start a company to hire more people to take on the jobs? Unlikely.

[Jmac]

What Canada (and most 1st world countries) need is increased levels of education and prioritize higher skilled jobs.

Most of these unskilled, minimum wage jobs are being lost to, and will increasingly be lost to, online sales and automation.

The government should be finding ways to improve the prospects of their young constituents.

[BIC_BAWS]

But I don't know the wage of each and every worker. And that's assuming you want a scaled average. I just wanted a straight average for the sake of simplicity and for scenario purposes.

[Rallydrv]

BOC's own estimates show that 60k jobs will be lost. plus any costs will be transferred over to consumers like it has in the past. or workers have lowered benefits/hours etc no business big or small is willing to absorb increased operating cost. (if they do. maybe it wouldn't last long)

not sure what everybody is arguing about.. maybe just "internet"

[westopher]

Unemployment is at the lowest level in Canada since 1974. 60k jobs lost is very worrisome but the push towards this hasn’t seemed to have a negative impact yet. Inflation is not a negative if the economy can grow with it, as it’s actually what helps close the income inequality gap. What needs to happen is all the money sitting stagnant in bank accounts and investments of the rich is it being injected into the economy, in many cases through higher wages. Small business will need to adjust the price of their products, but those who provide the best of their product will thrive, as people with the money to buy their product will increase.

[BIC_BAWS]

I came across these two articles that I thought I'd share. These articles are not on the same spectrum of what I initially started the thread with, but rather the potential positive effects on small business and how BC is approaching this issue.

CBC - Increasing minimum wage puts money back into small business economy, says labour expert (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/increasing-minimum-wage-puts-money-back-into-small-business-economy-says-labour-expert-1.4479673)

York University labour geographer, Steven Tufts, said small business owners should embrace wage increases as an opportunity.

"When we take wages and increase them and put more money in the pockets of workers they buy the products from those small businesses and that's good for the economy," Tufts told Stephen Quinn, host of CBC's The Early Edition.

Reduce turnover
His comments come as some independent businesses in Vancouver say they're having trouble recruiting and retaining workers amid a housing affordability crisis in British Columbia.

Tufts said he's heard from business owners in Ontario who want to focus on the potential benefits of wage increases rather than the cost of higher wages.

"There are some small business folks … who are advocating that employers actually go along with the increase and turn the increase into an advantage," said Tufts, "That might actually reduce turnover because you're paying more."



B.C. Keeping Its Own Counsel on Minimum Wage (https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/01/04/BC-Keeping-Counsel-Minimum-Wage/)

Ontario and Alberta minimum wage experience not necessarily relevant, says labour minister.

British Columbia’s Minister of Labour says the experience of Ontario and Alberta likely won’t affect how B.C. implements a provincial $15-an-hour minimum wage.

Ontario’s minimum wage jumped 20 per cent from $11.60 per hour to $14 on Monday en route to reaching the $15 mark next January. B.C. is in the middle of deciding how it will introduce the wage by 2021.

A report from the Fair Wages Commission established in October is due in a matter of days. Harry Bains said although it’s important to keep an eye on the experiences of places like Ontario and Alberta, the commission’s advice is more important to B.C.

“You learn from other jurisdictions and their experiences,” Bains said. “I think the issue is whether there’s any relevancy between different jurisdictions.”

Ontario has seen an explosion in the percentage of workers earning minimum wage in the province at more than 11 per cent compared to 6.3 per cent 10 years ago, according to some reports.

But the Ontario increase to $14 isn’t across the board. A limited number of sectors are subject to “special” minimum wages, sometimes higher and sometimes lower than the regular minimum wage. Those rates will increase by the same percentage as the standard minimum pay.

For example, minimum wages for those serving liquor went from $10.10 an hour to $12.20 with Monday’s increase.

Business groups in Ontario have come out strong against the wage increase, threatening it will cause job losses and “unintended consequences.”

In B.C., similar arguments have been made by some opponents, but Bains said most business groups in the province are more concerned with stability and an incremental increase in the wage rather than a big change overnight.

“They’re looking for certainty,” Bains said. “They’re looking for gradual increase so that they have the time to absorb the labour cost so that they can build it into their costs going forward.”

Bains wouldn’t hint at how B.C. might roll out its own wage increase, saying he didn’t want to “pre-judge” the commission’s conclusions.

About 4.8 per cent of those employed in B.C. earned minimum wage in 2016, according to statistics provided by BC Stats.

Alberta also set out on the path to a $15 minimum wage in October 2016 with the goal of hitting the mark this fall.

But Ontario’s experience will likely be more useful to B.C., said Mark Thompson, a labour expert and professor emeritus at the University of B.C.’s Sauder School of Business.

Thompson has followed B.C.’s wage consultation closely and supports the implementation of a $15-per-hour minimum wage.

He said workers getting the raise will likely spend the money on life necessities. He dismissed concerns by some there will be job losses, arguing they will be “minimal to none.”

Better paying employment, such as in Ontario’s manufacturing sector, isn’t likely to be affected by the increase either, according to Thompson.

“General Motors is not going to make a decision based on the minimum wage,” he said.

Thompson added the wage increase could also result in easing a labour shortage in Ontario, though it is mostly for skilled labour because a pay hike could encourage some to stay in or rejoin the workforce, even if they’ve retired.

He said the argument that a $15 minimum wage will create sweeping job losses and hurt business has run its course. Thompson said the media often feeds the perception of risk through poor reporting that often focuses on an unhappy employer.

“They never really try. They just haul out some stooge and say he’s going to be devastated and he’s somehow an exemplar for the economy,” he said. “It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out in 2018.”



I'm hopeful that the Fair Wage Committee will actually listen to small business owners in BC, and be open to a conversation regarding this topic.

[Traum]

York University labour geographer, Steven Tufts, said small business owners should embrace wage increases as an opportunity.

"When we take wages and increase them and put more money in the pockets of workers they buy the products from those small businesses and that's good for the economy," Tufts told Stephen Quinn, host of CBC's The Early Edition.
I don't get this ^^. What does higher minimum wage has to do with workers buying more products from small businesses? As far as I'm concerned, higher minimum wages has very little to do people's shopping habits. Mobility and access to both public transit and private vehicles, on the other hand, has a far greater correlation to whether people buy from small businesses or big box stores.

Can't really believe what this Tufts guy is saying when it doesn't seem to make sense.

[westopher]

I don't get this ^^. What does higher minimum wage has to do with workers buying more products from small businesses? As far as I'm concerned, higher minimum wages has very little to do people's shopping habits. Mobility and access to both public transit and private vehicles, on the other hand, has a far greater correlation to whether people buy from small businesses or big box stores.

Can't really believe what this Tufts guy is saying when it doesn't seem to make sense.
I disagree with that for 2 reasons.
If money being spent in the economy goes up by a certain amount, its not going to ALL be spent in big box stores under any circumstance as it won't shift people to spending the "new money" that direction.
Say the market share for example is for 10M of products purchased it goes
9M = big box
1M = small business.
Add 10M to the economy and we will say at worst there is 18M big box and 2M small business. (keep in mind there is no basis behind these numbers but the theory is there) Thats still an increase in small business revenue.

The other reason is, small businesses often offer better products at a higher price. If people have more money to spend, they will seek out the higher quality that they couldn't afford before.
No more McDonalds for lunch, I'm going to La Taqueria, for example. Thats an example of more money staying in the local economy as well, and probably a healthier individual.

I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I see it from that perspective.

[R. Mutt]

No more McDonalds for lunch, I'm going to La Taqueria, for example...

When work isn'tt crazy we ussed to hit the one on Cambie for Taco Tuesday :fullofwin:

[fliptuner]

Pay them based on competence.

Fucking cunt working at KFC last night wouldn't make 50¢/hr.