[prelude_prince]

HELP! with Candy paint. My painters had warned me about this, now it's clear you can see the dark blotches/clouding underneath the paint in the attached first video of my trunk. It looks horrible! on other panels it's not as obvious since there are curves and corners and it just looks like the color is shifting. But I can't accept how it looks on large flat panels like the trunk.

https://youtu.be/3-i4W0A6Zb0

Any experienced painters could provide advice? The painters on my car is pretty pro already , but here in HK it's not common to find Candy tricoat paint experience.

https://youtu.be/8gTlWZ_rA8E

https://youtu.be/pzS8ikfVRzs

https://youtu.be/Hi0ge3hU90o

[Suprarz666]

Its hard to say what it is without watching him spray it. Could be many things.

He could have been laying it too heavy in some areas to try and flow it out.
Could be uneven application.

And also, you shouldnt spray a candy color with the panels off the car. Each panel will look different. Usually candy jobs are sprayed with all the panels bolted on so it looks even. It's hard to get perfect.

[6thGear.]

Can't be that much of a pro if that's the result. LOL. All jokes aside, majority of the time blotchiness/cloudy comes from improper overlap or improper needle tip. Like Suprarz666 it can also be a number of things which can be the following...


gun setup (improper fan pattern)
too much material/ not enough material going through gun
too close/ too far
too fast/ too slow
improper reduction ratio (DIN4 cup test?)
improper reducer selected (assuming its not water-based)
mid coat/candy coat was mixed improper
insufficient flash time
gun selection (maybe his paint gun can't handle mid coats?)

And yes it's also not advised to paint parts off the car for candy coats but if it is done then EVERY pass and EVERY coat down to clearcoat has to be applied EXACTLY the same way for EVERY panel.

Lastly what's the color code you used? Is the midcoat basecoat version or is it clearcoat version? If there's a clearcoat version I'd recommend that instead. The application is MUCH easier.

[prelude_prince]

Thanks for your comments guys.

I've talked with the body shop which is actually a supercar shop, however most supercar are still not 3coat paints (Kandy). The paints and equipment they use are supposingly top tier, and they follow all the protocols recommended to them. Reason they paint it with the panels off is because they took my car apart and I assume is to cover all the panels fully(front and back) instead of just spraying over it. I'm actually okay with how most of the car came out as in the other videos of the shell and hood/bumper, i cant really tell if there is uneveness or not as per my other videos on my first post, but it's on the large flat surfaces like my trunk panel in the first vid, you can see the dark clouding.

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23559618_10159479927695398_7534591287409120688_n.j pg?oh=07af0b7e876122d6768acda97bc3bad3&oe=5A9A11C2
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23473238_10159479927800398_7973835590366473062_n.j pg?oh=98518df8b5abf5cfc9e1a25a40084359&oe=5AA58275

So in short, they are telling me that all the questions 6thgear mentioned are already correct and followed. But they are telling me that no matter what, this clouding will happen because of this 3stage paint I chose. They tell me they're "willing" to make things right, even paint it again, but then it will have clouding no matter what, it's just more apparent on large flat surfaces . Can anyone confirm this claim?

This is their paint area, so i assume the painters should really know what they're doing
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16508729_10158124769650398_8434006223435394745_n.j pg?oh=bd0b4bceb545f5775e4234b18a0b3137&oe=5AA9CF50
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16508593_10158124769755398_8550542429561447974_n.j pg?oh=bf2c847d0f6b4556d5669cc5d6806072&oe=5A907CFE

[prelude_prince]

Lastly what's the color code you used? Is the midcoat basecoat version or is it clearcoat version? If there's a clearcoat version I'd recommend that instead. The application is MUCH easier.

It's the color from the 2016 NSX, Valencia Red Pearl, R556P. Sikkens paints

[Suprarz666]

Well, if they are doing everything absolutely perfect like they say, maybe they should call in a paint rep for assistance.

I haven't personally sprayed that color, But i've sprayed Mazda Soul Red many times and it is a similar 3 stage paint. I haven't had blotching issues on large flat panels before with that color.

[604STIG]

My painters had warned me about this

Why didn't you listen when they told you this would happen?

Best suggestion as stated above is to have their paint rep for that product come in and see what their explanation is, or repaint it with a different product.

Good luck, make sure to follow up with updated pics.

[Badhobz]

What are you spraying ? Can't tell from just the body panels.

[pherio]

What are you spraying ? Can't tell from just the body panels.

Looks like an NSX with a Marga Hills aero kit

[prelude_prince]

Why didn't you listen when they told you this would happen?

Best suggestion as stated above is to have their paint rep for that product come in and see what their explanation is, or repaint it with a different product.

Good luck, make sure to follow up with updated pics.

Well they did tell me they could do any color as long as I could find a color code for it. Not until everything was apart and work started they shot up test panels that this problem was brought up. I brought my car to this shop for this reason, I figured if they can't do it, no one else in HK can. And noted, I will ask them to request a paint rep for my next visitr

This was my fender they test sprayed on and the clouding was not apparent.

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20374748_10159008121345398_5527223863754200785_n.j pg?oh=d3554af55fcb135dd7de5d62315a8dce&oe=5A99B5EE

From left to right the 3 colors are the new NSX Valencia Red (3coat) (the one I chose now), Competizione Rosso (3coat) (Alfa 4C), and Rosso Efresto (2coat) (Rare Lambo Color)

[prelude_prince]

Looks like an NSX with a Marga Hills aero kit

correct

[Suprarz666]

Do you have anymore high resolution pictures instead of videos?

[prelude_prince]

Do you have anymore high resolution pictures instead of videos?

Videos and updates are sent to me from my mechanic as the bodyshop is quite far away.

These two pictures are the only ones I took when I visited the shop after they painted the shell, again, the clouding wasn't apparent here or in person

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23593358_10159482971725398_1475857444207874668_o.j pg?oh=77db1f1d770eaaaefdf1ffbad647b252&oe=5A989A7A

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23473238_10159479927800398_7973835590366473062_n.j pg?oh=98518df8b5abf5cfc9e1a25a40084359&oe=5AA58275

[68style]

Seems you’re adamant the shop knows what they’re doing, so then how does Honda/Acura paint the 2017 NSX that colour without issue from the factory?

The painter isn’t doing it right. Simple answer.

[prelude_prince]

Seems you’re adamant the shop knows what they’re doing, so then how does Honda/Acura paint the 2017 NSX that colour without issue from the factory?

The painter isn’t doing it right. Simple answer.

This is correct, and I asked them the same question. Their answer was that the process is different, factory automation and baked/cooked/electro coated? paint (don't know the correct term), versus hand sprayed.

So you are again right in the sense that the painter can't do it right 100% as per factory, and I agree with that, but I just didn't expect that level of clouding. I suppose now is to wait for the official reply from one of the reps, to see if the clouding in this specific paint can be 100% avoided by human manual process.

[Suprarz666]

I do honestly think its a application issue by the painter. But at this point it would be the best to wait for the rep and see what he says.

[coneZONE]

same. I've had an experience where we received a car back from the bodyshop, and it was poorly done, wasn't blended. Painter said that it was difficult to paint metallic/pearlescent colours. Ok, fine.
Few years later, we were at another shop (different car), and just to make sure, we asked the owner make sure it's a job well done, and he said "No, there's no difference in painting solid colours and metallic". And they did do a pretty good job.

So in my experience, if they're making excuses and such, saying "oh this is the best it's gonna get", the person doing the job isn't good enough to tackle that job

[6thGear.]

So I checked your paint code based off of the paint line I use and it actually calls for tinted clearcoat instead of the traditional basecoat midcoat. Basically it's the candy dye that gets mixed with clearcoat which then is applied over the ground basecoat then finally a normal layer of clearcoat is then applied. I find this application to be much more user friendly than the traditional Tri-coat/Candy. You need to find out from the painter if there is other solutions like this. This is much like Ford RR which is a tinted candy/mid and after a couple tries I hadn't had much issues *knock on wood*

Now the process at the factory isn't that much different other than the equipment is much bigger and it covers the panels much better and add to the fact its programmed robotic arms VS human arms. Baked/electro-coat doesn't make a difference so don't buy into that BS the shop is telling you. This may merely be an example of inexperience for candy color. But to be honest candy paint jobs has always been a big PITA but it's a lot easier application these days compared to the old days.

[prelude_prince]

So I checked your paint code based off of the paint line I use and it actually calls for tinted clearcoat instead of the traditional basecoat midcoat. Basically it's the candy dye that gets mixed with clearcoat which then is applied over the ground basecoat then finally a normal layer of clearcoat is then applied. I find this application to be much more user friendly than the traditional Tri-coat/Candy. You need to find out from the painter if there is other solutions like this. This is much like Ford RR which is a tinted candy/mid and after a couple tries I hadn't had much issues *knock on wood*

Now the process at the factory isn't that much different other than the equipment is much bigger and it covers the panels much better and add to the fact its programmed robotic arms VS human arms. Baked/electro-coat doesn't make a difference so don't buy into that BS the shop is telling you. This may merely be an example of inexperience for candy color. But to be honest candy paint jobs has always been a big PITA but it's a lot easier application these days compared to the old days.

Gotcha, thanks everyone for their comments and advice! It's hard to argue with a painter who comes with years of experience and pride especially if you're not in the field. But I get the points everyone is mentioning so I'll have a talk with them and arrange visit with the rep, and will report back.

[hchang]

Are you putting your car in a rap video

[prelude_prince]

Are you putting your car in a rap video

?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3b/3b75813af2350e14a3403e46e8539c3cb2f8d44e36b0a0ff45 0203ef80b42b2c.jpg

[prelude_prince]

Update: I finally had a chance to look at the car in person and honestly I can't see the defects outside of the booth. The 3stage color does look delicious and shifts a lot depending on the angle you look at it and such. I'm still waiting to have a talk with the paint rep though.

https://youtu.be/KRwZnQPqWik

https://youtu.be/67umLmk_DJM

https://youtu.be/Eunj0Dw4eXM

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23668971_10159501389520398_5330557652121505110_o.j pg?oh=a0426aba583f1681430c8f9fbd471e57&oe=5AA708C1
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23735952_10159501389515398_932483209818574160_o.jp g?oh=b24d2111e2237173d08e3589bc1d39a9&oe=5A93E36B
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23632642_10159501389085398_2136757192965575601_o.j pg?oh=a0fab382a7285a061d9df61c9eadef6d&oe=5A983333
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23800258_10159501389295398_4645152826811374450_o.j pg?oh=1b6a51ea1100b78cb54baf5110b1d4c5&oe=5A9BA7AC
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23669065_10159501389670398_2949934912439318631_o.j pg?oh=d27ece804bfaaff786a43d5473ecc8ac&oe=5A8BBDF9
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23737886_10159501389820398_1710887225347323568_o.j pg?oh=5dce4c9dbf50bf4eeaa03a62e6dac746&oe=5A976109
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23669099_10159501389660398_5796325300344378245_o.j pg?oh=e05db9e59c4d99dd733f88f66cd7318b&oe=5A8949E2
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23783761_10159501389830398_1649453150141502788_o.j pg?oh=37fc90bad2423adf1c9558a77ac4d08a&oe=5A9A3FBF
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23668917_10159501389300398_808493100551361299_o.jp g?oh=09ee1b21fa591425ecc0e3eff7ff3ffe&oe=5AACAA8D
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23669079_10159501389290398_1146862061545040971_o.j pg?oh=ab1a9560f0d1f3591bda987e41e2974e&oe=5AA676AF
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23669167_10159501389970398_4998056272121275328_o.j pg?oh=7d83eb1f2b7af460432617c75c55a3a4&oe=5A8CC427

[bcrdukes]

Side question - have you contacted Honda to see if they would repaint it for you at the factory?

[prelude_prince]

Side question - have you contacted Honda to see if they would repaint it for you at the factory?

I didn't consider that due to the price and logistics involved. They have/had NSX refresh programs in the NSX factory, prices were pretty insane if I remember. Doubt they would do non-factory colors too, and i'm a aftermarket > oem guy.

[6thGear.]

Color looks/reacts different under different light sources. How it looks in the paint booth will look different from incandescent light to outdoor natural light. Even outside in the shade or direct sunlight will look different. You should roll the car outside on a clear sunny day and see if the blotchness/clouding is still visible. Usually with clouding in my experience you will see it most on cloudy/overcast days. If the blotchiness is severe enough you will see it under any light source.

[westopher]

6thgear where are you a painter? You seem like someone I'd want dealing with my paint issue.

[prelude_prince]

Color looks/reacts different under different light sources. How it looks in the paint booth will look different from incandescent light to outdoor natural light. Even outside in the shade or direct sunlight will look different. You should roll the car outside on a clear sunny day and see if the blotchness/clouding is still visible. Usually with clouding in my experience you will see it most on cloudy/overcast days. If the blotchiness is severe enough you will see it under any light source.

Thanks again, 6thGear. I was also talking to the owner of a custom paint shop, where he painted a jaguar etype a similar color. He mentioned even his car looked horrible in the booth. He also advised, like you to roll the car out to the sun to make a decision. The shop did mention they will do it once all the panels are on.

Project Purist: The Jaguar E-Type Built To Drift - Speedhunters (http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/09/project-purist-jaguar-e-type-built-drift/)

http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/14040057/DSC_3274-Edit1-1200x800.jpg

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23843342_10159505165525398_8398918721464847830_n.j pg?oh=df470fbd961b2dece2c60ddc7fac4ee0&oe=5A9F1B23

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23659499_10159505165595398_1550838413455810823_n.j pg?oh=4ef046377f2663bca8b4d2d63fe2ce96&oe=5A94F719

I can kind of notice some clouding even in the feature, but it's really hard to tell again, if it really is clouding or just the shadow/reflection of the paint.

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23674647_10159505168185398_292044563853938338_o.jp g?oh=978ccac8502c77a002c6d4ccaf47ec05&oe=5A983201

and... latest photos from the shop;

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23659217_10159505165440398_8885683098888226426_n.j pg?oh=c6c1fe2acf561a0c7b9c1b4bf639252b&oe=5A8AF244

https://scontent.fhkg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23755648_10159505165485398_5766483727683912555_n.j pg?oh=39b4cc9838d8aa90c831ea004ef788d9&oe=5A8A09C0

[6thGear.]

That E-type looks nuts. Definitely tickles my fancy. I told myself one day I'll build myself a car (AC Shelby cobra) with either Viper blue or Candy Apple Red.

6thgear where are you a painter? You seem like someone I'd want dealing with my paint issue.

Thanks for the kind words but if I brought in resto/custom work or fixing someone else's screw up my boss would kill me LOL. He only wants ICBC work. Maybe if I had my own shop one day....:okay:

[prelude_prince]

Yup, I had considered the E-type paint job and also Volcano Red (too expensive) before deciding on the NSX color for a little homage to the new NSX.

[prelude_prince]

Today, 7:33 PM
You;
Westendorp, E.E. (Ernst) (ernst.westendorp@akzonobel.com);
Liu, J. (James) (James.Liu@akzonobel.com);
Mattila, S.M. (Sanna-Maaria) (SannaMaaria.Mattila@akzonobel.com); +1 more
Dear Mr. Chan
We are still keeping testing because we are having our current plan and release the time to make the testing. We just tried two different application methods. We have already informed to the Global technical team, RD&I team as well. We are trying our best. Looks still has slightly cloudiness but we will try and make sure 100% no problem then will update to you as soon as possible. Please forgive me cannot give you an answer in this moment.

Best regards 谨致问候

刘远思 Frankie LAU
技术服务经理 北亚区 Technical Service Manager, North Asia
汽车涂料 Vehicle Refinishes

Well I had escalated my case to the paint supplier Akzo Nobel with the support of the bodyshop behind which is actually Pagani China. So this case has become quite a big deal for them. Looks like there maybe slight problem with the paint itself as even Akzo Nobel cannot paint this without the clouding issue.

[604STIG]

Good thing you didn't just accept things the way they were.

[Suprarz666]

So this shop has 2 paint lines?
Did they try spraying it with Glasurits instead of sikkens?

[prelude_prince]

So this shop has 2 paint lines?
Did they try spraying it with Glasurits instead of sikkens?

Yes Suprarz666 they carry both, sorry for confusion. I got the two names mixed up earlier, I don't know my paint names and thought the "Parrot" looking one was Sikkens.

Reason they went with Sikkens was that no one had the red Glasurit paint my paint code called for in stock in Hong Kong. So they can't spray the Glasurit to test.

[prelude_prince]

Good thing you didn't just accept things the way they were.

Yup, but seems liek this is going to be a long road till my car is completed now.

[prelude_prince]

Update; The paint supplier has found a solution/method to paint and achieve no clouding on the flat panels. Bare with me as I'll try to explain as best as I can without knowledge of painting.

From what I heard from meeting the paint reps in person was that this color was extremely hard to paint due to the large silver metallics in the base coat and color variance from the base coat to the 2nd coat. For instance 41V Mazda Soul Reds are much more simpler due to the fact their base coat is a similar red to the 2nd coat. This is why this color is much more 'candy' or shifts color more than the 41V. The color changes from a very dark blood red to a bright red in different angles and lighting, outside in the sun the metallic flakes are extremely prominent. They had also contacted overseas branches for help but have not found anyone with experience in painting R556P.

In the end they were able to consistently paint without clouding on flat panels with a criss-cross spray pattern, horizontal stroke then vertical, for one coat. Kind of like carbon weave I'm told. They sprayed a lot of door panels using this method and 1-6coats of 2nd layer as you can see below. However this method would only really work for relatively flat panels and not curved surfaces. It would be impossible really to spray a corner etc with a 90 degree criss-cross pattern, but as you can see there is hardly or no clouding on corners and edges. So the next step right now the paint rep is going to support the bodyshop and repaint my external panels using this method. Hoping it works.

Also good luck to all the people painting candy colors! It's been such a PITA for me I wouldn't think to consider candy paint jobs again lol.

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/24291477_10159559383790398_6593206762481637092_o.j pg?oh=e84769253e568fe5b1b3eb4b8e6a6941&oe=5AD1B7FE

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24312692_10159559383640398_7499108297908883832_n.j pg?oh=1c25fef336b13349745099fd7177a5f7&oe=5A92ABB3

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24231823_10159559383675398_403275023856439575_n.jp g?oh=bfed0e3a9a6deaf9d96ff00e9cb05696&oe=5AC8D5C4

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24232692_10159559383705398_4585500946306617991_n.j pg?oh=acacdaab5ee4df71387cf680eb0c30b1&oe=5A92FCC1

[westopher]

Thats going to be stunning when done, but I wouldn't handle the stress of having paintwork like that! I'd probably push the car off the side of a cliff the first scratch it got, knowing it could never be matched again.

[prelude_prince]

Thats going to be stunning when done, but I wouldn't handle the stress of having paintwork like that! I'd probably push the car off the side of a cliff the first scratch it got, knowing it could never be matched again.

exactly the thoughts going through my head now!

[coneZONE]

whoa, that's a lot of doors that they have laying around to test spray :fullofwin:

[6thGear.]

Glad to hear the paint rep pulled through for you. Criss cross application has been around for a long time as that's how they used to paint metallic colors for single stage enamel paint. A process that hasn't been used for a couple decades and now they are bringing it back for extremely hard paint jobs. I guess yours being one of them. The other is for the new quad-coat(yes 4 different layers) Mazda machine gray and Nissan GT-R KAB color code. When finished the metal flakes is so fine the finished product is to look like liquid metal similar to that aluminum trim on Audi.




whoa, that's a lot of doors that they have laying around to test spray :fullofwin:

Those are just door skins. Pretty common for paint reps to have several for test panel painting

[prelude_prince]

Glad to hear the paint rep pulled through for you. Criss cross application has been around for a long time as that's how they used to paint metallic colors for single stage enamel paint. A process that hasn't been used for a couple decades and now they are bringing it back for extremely hard paint jobs. I guess yours being one of them. The other is for the new quad-coat(yes 4 different layers) Mazda machine gray and Nissan GT-R KAB color code. When finished the metal flakes is so fine the finished product is to look like liquid metal similar to that aluminum trim on Audi.






Those are just door skins. Pretty common for paint reps to have several for test panel painting

Wow 6thGear you do know your stuff. I talked to a few friends and not many know of the criss-cross method, but you're correct. The paint rep did mention this was in their manual for hard paint jobs since it helps not as wet application and/or distribution. Another reason they said why this was much harder to apply than Soul Red was that Soul Red can be applied wet.

I had to google those two quad color jobs you mentioned. Really have to see those colors in person. I also really want to see the LB 2017 NSX in my color, I wonder if they painted it without clouding issues. I feel sorry for the shops that are going to have to respray/touchup in those colors. Seems fun. My bodyshop manager is telling me they probably won't accept anymore Candy jobs after my car. :fullofwin: Too much hassle for them with limited space and crazy rent prices in Hong Kong. Most bodyshops here just want your car in and out, for the # of business turns. Custom work is not profitable for the business model here. Pagani is definitely losing money doing my car this time around, when they can just order and install suspension on a Zonda for something like 100k usd instead.

6thGear You really ought to list the shop you work at, I'm sure you would bring it lots of business for your shop. But you're right custom/resto work... and some troublesome cases can be quite a pain. Check out this Mini in their shop. And I thought I was anal.

https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20429800_10159008120830398_7644333427575165076_n.j pg?oh=e11c0ad0d3b576ad6d4828358ad2527c&oe=5A8DD834
https://scontent-hkg3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19756714_10159008120905398_7805813009893125860_n.j pg?oh=db62d96eedd0f8aad9dee51272d24e47&oe=5A933A91

:ahwow:I thought it was an interesting racing stripes effect until upon close up it's all stickers pointing to defects in the paint where the owner wasn't pleased with the outcome.