737 Boeing crashes in Iran [Archive] - REVscene Automotive Forum

JD¹³

01-08-2020, 07:22 PM

I'm giving it a 99.8% chance it was shot down. ZERO chance it was an engine failure or technical problem. The other small possibility is a bomb but in my opinion it was shot down by accident. The available transponder info, no radio calls, flaming wreckage falling.... someone fucked up like Russia did with MH17.

RIP to all those onboard. However, who the fuck allows a commercial aircraft to take off from the capital after you just launched a ballistic missile attack on another country. Not to speak ill of the dead but really stupid to get on that flight as well, the attack was all over the local media and full blown war was on everyone's lips. Not a time to be in the local airspace.

ssjGoku69

01-08-2020, 07:46 PM

Just found out that my coworker and her family were on that plane.

I really hope it wasn't some idiot firing a missile at a passenger plane.

Hondaracer

01-08-2020, 08:15 PM

A three year old 737-800 could probably take off on 1 engine. A random hull loss incident is virtually unthinkable for such a new aircraft as well

donjalapeno

01-08-2020, 08:43 PM

RIP to all those on board the flight. It's an absolute brutal way to go.

It was definitely a fuck up by the Iran government/military. Especially because they are refusing to release BlackBox footage.

As Hondaracer mentioned its unthinkable for a 3-year-old 737-800 to go down like that for no reason.

Ludepower

01-08-2020, 08:50 PM

Trudeau should speak the fuck up and demand some answers.

twitchyzero

01-08-2020, 09:01 PM

RIP to all those onboard. However, who the fuck allows a commercial aircraft to take off from the capital after you just launched a ballistic missile attack on another country. Not to speak ill of the dead but really stupid to get on that flight as well, the attack was all over the local media and full blown war was on everyone's lips. Not a time to be in the local airspace.

the attack happened what, 500 miles away? are there reports they were launched from Tehran? and seems like missiles in those parts are not that uncommon

https://youtu.be/FrDzVheGZbk

not to mention it was only a few hours before the flight when the passengers were likely at the terminal already...dozens of which were Canadians returning home from winter break

Badhobz

01-08-2020, 09:05 PM

So the attack happened a few hours before this crash right ?! I don’t think it’s related then.

JD¹³

01-08-2020, 10:12 PM

the attack happened what, 500 miles away? are there reports they were launched from Tehran? and seems like missiles in those parts are not that uncommon.

Short range, unguided rockets fired at Israel's Iron Dome defense system are a far cry from ballistic missiles and the full force of the US military. Video is totally irrelevant.

not to mention it was only a few hours before the flight when the passengers were likely at the terminal already...dozens of which were Canadians returning home from winter break
I'm really not trying to victim blame but they should not have been in the air there. Ultimate 'legal' responsibility for this falls on the airline, its insurer, and the regulatory body that controls the commercial airspace. MH17 happened in the Ukraine FFS! You'd think they would know best not to have commercial airliners in potentially hostile airspace! You'll note that upon first reports of the Iranian strike the FAA banned all its commercial carriers from the entire area. They red boxed all of Iraq and Iran. No international carrier should have had flights departing in that region during or in the immediate hours after this attack. With that being said, do you think the news was not being broadcast in the terminal at the Tehran airport? That no one was talking about it? Iran was yelling about it from a mountain top.

500mi is nothing from a military standpoint. The USAF has launched aircraft and had them fly around the world for 24+ hours to strike targets. 500mi is a short hop away, especially when you can deploy weapons from fighter aircraft 60mi+ away now. The aircraft took off in the window a counter attack would have been taking place if there was one. Subsonic Tomahawk missiles could have been launched from the Gulf and been in Tehran in an hour, fighters inside 45 mins from the multitude of American forward operating locations in the region.

Ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety and that of your loved ones. Everyone in the modern world knew about MH17. Even if this ends up not being a case of the aircraft being shot down all aircraft that were in the air, in that region, at that time, were at risk. This was Tehran, the capital of Iran that just openly committed a mass attack against American positions under already very heightened tensions. Tehran had/has targets whether the initial strikes were launched from there or not. If it had been me there's no way I'd have boarded that plane, and I hope if anyone here ever ends up in a similar scenario anywhere in the world they don't put themselves at that kind of risk. A couple thousand dollars, a couple days, missing work or school or whatever... it's not worth your life. It was extremely dangerous for civilians to be in the airspace, and I believe the loss of all these people unfortunately proves it.

StylinRed

01-08-2020, 10:51 PM

Under the rules of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, of which Iran, Ukraine and the US are all members, air crash investigations are led by the country where the accident occurred.

Iranian officials said they suspected a mechanical issue brought down the three-and-a-half-year-old Boeing 737-800, an assessment Ukrainian officials initially agreed with but later backed away from while the investigation is ongoing.

Justin Bronk, a research fellow at the Royal United Service Institute, said that he believed on balance the incident was “a tragic coincidence”.

He said it would require a fairly large surface-to-air missile to inflict such catastrophic damage on a civilian airliner, “but there was no evidence of a rocket plume” in the videos that have emerged so far. “It would also be very hard to conceal such a large rocket battery from the ground,” he added.

They're allowing Ukrainian officials, and the airlines reps to join in/observe the investigations
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/08/iran-says-it-will-not-give-black-box-from-crashed-airliner-to-boeing

hud 91gt

01-08-2020, 10:58 PM

^ I don’t think that is quite fair.

For example, you have Canadians away home in a hostile area with missiles being hurled left and right. What is the better option, get out of the area on a commercial flight, or stick around to see how things unfold.

I can’t speak for this airline, but North American carriers assess hostile situations like this. They do indeed adjust scheduling and routings around the situations. Companies are at risk as well, just as the passengers. They also have chips in the game. To have a passenger rely on an airliners operations wouldn’t be out of context, especially if one is feeling unsafe in their current situation.

I agree, I wouldn’t have been on the plane, but I also wouldn’t have been in the area in the first place.

RIP to all those involved.

hud 91gt

01-08-2020, 11:00 PM

I found it quite fishy how it was announced the black boxes would nott be released to the Americans. I then spoke to my 89 year old grandfather who stated “I wouldn’t either, as soon as you give it to them, the Americans will claim is was shot down.”

Different perspective.

teggy604

01-08-2020, 11:01 PM

A three year old 737-800 could probably take off on 1 engine. A random hull loss incident is virtually unthinkable for such a new aircraft as well

They can take off fly and land with one engine. Its a safety thing all commercial aircraft must meet if I remember correctly. From reading the news article, it definitely sounds sketchy. Especially with all the crazy stuff happening over there.

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 12:10 AM

good arguments but nevertheless made in hindsight

i dont know what it's like growing up in Iran/Iraq/Syria but maybe getting caught in the crossfire is accepted as fate for locals

as for the Canadians? if they dont have a military/aviation background, how the hell are they supposed to connect the dots from an incident in Eastern Europe 5 years ago with what's happening on TV? they're not gonna sit down immediately after watching the news and draw a radius from the Gulf to assess the risk of getting whacked by a Tomahawk...when they're checked in and ready to get out of this mess and get home soon

MH17 happened in the Ukraine FFS! You'd think they would know best not to have commercial airliners in potentially hostile airspace! With that being said, do you think the news was not being broadcast in the terminal at the Tehran airport? That no one was talking about it? Iran was yelling about it from a mountain top.

500mi is nothing from a military standpoint. The USAF has launched aircraft and had them fly around the world for 24+ hours to strike targets. 500mi is a short hop away, especially when you can deploy weapons from fighter aircraft 60mi+ away now. The aircraft took off in the window a counter attack would have been taking place if there was one. Subsonic Tomahawk missiles could have been launched from the Gulf and been in Tehran in an hour, fighters inside 45 mins from the multitude of American forward operating locations in the region.

Ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety and that of your loved ones. Everyone in the modern world knew about MH17. Even if this ends up not being a case of the aircraft being shot down all aircraft that were in the air, in that region, at that time, were at risk. This was Tehran, the capital of Iran that just openly committed a mass attack against American positions under already very heightened tensions. Tehran had/has targets whether the initial strikes were launched from there or not. If it had been me there's no way I'd have boarded that plane, and I hope if anyone here ever ends up in a similar scenario anywhere in the world they don't put themselves at that kind of risk. A couple thousand dollars, a couple days, missing work or school or whatever... it's not worth your life. It was extremely dangerous for civilians to be in the airspace, and I believe the loss of all these people unfortunately proves it.

I found it quite fishy how it was announced the black boxes would nott be released to the Americans. I then spoke to my 89 year old grandfather who stated “I wouldn’t either, as soon as you give it to them, the Americans will claim is was shot down.”

Different perspective.

won't black box data/transmission with atc be made public in court? Even if Boeing is deep in Washington's coffers this doesn't seem like a scandal worth pulling off esp with the poor PR from last year

i can see Iran's stance though, why allow your current enemy #1 involved in investigations when tensions are this high

whitev70r

01-09-2020, 06:10 AM

Apparently, radio went dead silent. No 'mayday' or whatever pilots actually say if they have mechanical failure.

Radio silence and a desperate turn: The final moments of Flight PS752
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-flight752-crash-timeline-1.5419572

Video broadcast by Iranian state TV shows what purports to be the final moments of the flight, with flames coming from an aircraft, then a blinding flash lighting up the pre-dawn darkness as the plane carrying nine crew and 167 passengers — 63 Canadians among them — slams into the ground.

Whatever occurred, it happened quickly: Hassan Rezaeifar, the chief crash investigator for Iran's Civil Aviation Organization, said the pilot never declared an emergency, and wasn't in communication with air traffic control during the final moments of the flight.

At a morning news conference at the Boryspil International Airport in Kyiv — Flight PS752's destination — executives from Ukraine International Airlines described the plane's crew as "excellent," "reliable," and highly trained. They said the aircraft underwent routine maintenance on Monday, and there were no reports of problems prior to takeoff.

westopher

01-09-2020, 06:33 AM

Trudeau should speak the fuck up and demand some answers.
I know he probably didn’t send you a letter detailing his intentions, but do you seriously think that it’s not already in the works?
https://apple.news/A9gAj07uHTailXZ1SAwkEHw

Ludepower

01-09-2020, 06:50 AM

I know he probably didn’t send you a letter detailing his intentions, but do you seriously think that it’s not already in the works?
https://apple.news/A9gAj07uHTailXZ1SAwkEHw

Ty government of canada spokesman. My post was half anger wanting our leader to be more vocal.

Ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety and that of your loved ones. Everyone in the modern world knew about MH17. Even if this ends up not being a case of the aircraft being shot down all aircraft that were in the air, in that region, at that time, were at risk. This was Tehran, the capital of Iran that just openly committed a mass attack against American positions under already very heightened tensions. Tehran had/has targets whether the initial strikes were launched from there or not. If it had been me there's no way I'd have boarded that plane, and I hope if anyone here ever ends up in a similar scenario anywhere in the world they don't put themselves at that kind of risk. A couple thousand dollars, a couple days, missing work or school or whatever... it's not worth your life. It was extremely dangerous for civilians to be in the airspace, and I believe the loss of all these people unfortunately proves it.

Your shitting on dead people after the fact. They should of done this. They shouldnt of done that. You come off as a insensitive know it all prick. People were probably trying to get home and get on the first flight out of there.

$_$

01-09-2020, 07:06 AM

Ty government of canada spokesman. My post was half anger wanting our leader to be more vocal.

Your shitting on dead people after the fact. They should of done this. They shouldnt of done that. You come off as a insensitive know it all prick. People were probably trying to get home and get on the first flight out of there.

If there was a strike in Iran and Canadians got killed, you bet he's gonna be here saying those people should've gotten on the first plane back home, how stupid of them to be in Tehran in the first place. :heckno:

hud 91gt

01-09-2020, 07:28 AM

won't black box data/transmission with atc be made public in court? Even if Boeing is deep in Washington's coffers this doesn't seem like a scandal worth pulling off esp with the poor PR from last year

i can see Iran's stance though, why allow your current enemy #1 involved in investigations when tensions are this high

I would assume your probably correct. I do believe his opinion was just from the fact the Americans like to strong arm everything they can for their own goal. It’s been going on for decades, terrorist this, terrorist that. It wouldn’t be far fetched to see the truth get bent.

Bouncing Bettys

01-09-2020, 07:51 AM

Newsweek saying it was shot down by Iran.
IRANIAN MISSILE SYSTEM SHOT DOWN UKRAINE FLIGHT, PROBABLY BY MISTAKE, SOURCES SAY
https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313

westopher

01-09-2020, 08:07 AM

Ty government of canada spokesman. My post was half anger wanting our leader to be more vocal.

Your post is an example of why the American government behaves so poorly. Not everything needs to be a snap reaction on twitter.
We were watching a literal war unfold through social media comments because someone who’s supposed to be the leader of one of the worlds superpowers is a child with a phone having a fucking temper tantrum and his moronic fan base eat it up.
The president of the US threatened literal war crimes on Twitter, and it’s because the public wants “the leader to be more vocal.”

Hondaracer

01-09-2020, 08:23 AM

CNN also reporting that it was shot down mistakenly..

Shooting down a comercial airline “by mistake” leaving an international airport..

Seems like a great place, must visit, will return

StylinRed

01-09-2020, 08:26 AM

Canadian investigators joining in the investigation with Iran and the Ukrainian team, the Ukrainian team is already on the ground.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/01/09/champagne-asks-iran-to-let-canadian-officials-in-to-investigate-plane-crash/

Vansterdam

01-09-2020, 08:29 AM

gonna be interesting since US took down that Iran plane back in 88

and the fact the plane was built in the US with a military contract of some sorts no?

StylinRed

01-09-2020, 08:33 AM

I'd be wary trusting us intelligence reports and media for the moment about this

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 09:30 AM

Your shitting on dead people after the fact. They should of done this. They shouldnt of done that. You come off as a insensitive know it all prick. People were probably trying to get home and get on the first flight out of there.
I'm not shitting on the victims but the situation needs to be used as a lesson. Sorry if reality offends you. I'm gutted for these people and their families because (IF shot down) this was totally avoidable. Like I said, the airline shouldn't have allowed that aircraft to take off and as hud 91gt stated the passengers trusted it was good to go (he's an airline pilot BTW).

how the hell are they supposed to connect the dots from an incident in Eastern Europe 5 years ago with what's happening on TV?
Are people's memories of major events that short?

68style

01-09-2020, 09:44 AM

Yah but come on man... you expect with everything travel related, especially the airline industry, that the powers to be do their due diligence including air traffic controllers, crew, maintenance staff, baggage handlers, execs at the airline you're flying on... everything is done in faith and trust when you use such services. You think everyone on that flight was a moron who didn't know what's going on? You're so advanced in your predictive abilities you would say "I don't think anything is going to be done right and this plane will get shot down, I'm going to de-plane or not get on it!" I highly, highly doubt it. Also, how many other planes took off and landed during that time? Dozens if not more? Are all those plane operators and passengers stupid too? Tehran isn't exactly a small airport, it's got 58,000 annual plane movements or 158 per day. Absolutely nothing happened around that time to suggest that this particular flight was any more dangerous than any others around it.

And even you do avoid the flight. Then what? You drive to another country's border? This isn't like you're in Seattle for the weekend and you can just book a hotel or whatever. Things are super regimented in shithole countries for how long you stay and where you can go/stay... roads don't exist... border crossings by land are impossible because of visa issues or blockades with other countries.

It's super easy to be the "I told you so" guy after you already know what happened.

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 09:51 AM

radar & satellite data suggests it was shot down

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/plane-crash-us-officials-confident-iran-shot-down-passenger-jet-bound-for-ukraine-today-2020-01-09-live-stream-updates/

Iran says this is propaganda

our PM is holding a news conference in a few min for rs member Ludepower

Hondaracer

01-09-2020, 09:59 AM

In b4 no mention of being shot down by turd

Bouncing Bettys

01-09-2020, 10:02 AM

Is an airline from a not so wealthy country like Ukraine really going to say no money from desperate people trying to leave? Or perhaps they knew from experience how dangerous flying can be in these situations and thought who better to help these people. Maybe they had that that they are civilian and therefore untouchable like the mentality of the woman in revealing clothing walking in a dangerous neighbourhood having the expectation not to be raped. We will have to wait and see and hope Iran cooperates.

bcedhk

01-09-2020, 10:07 AM

Not to speak ill of the dead but really stupid to get on that flight as well, the attack was all over the local media and full blown war was on everyone's lips. Not a time to be in the local airspace.

LOL that's pretty much the same as those saying "I'm not a racist, but (insert ethnicity) people....."

bcedhk

01-09-2020, 10:08 AM

Bouncing Bettys

01-09-2020, 10:23 AM

What the F are you talking about.
The possible motives behind the Ukrainian airline to fly a civilian aircraft in the airspace of a war zone. I was of the understanding that other aviation authorities had stopped all flights in the area. If we can discuss the passengers and their reasons for flying, why not the airline?

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 10:25 AM

Yah but come on man... you expect with everything travel related, especially the airline industry, that the powers to be do their due diligence including air traffic controllers, crew, maintenance staff, baggage handlers, execs at the airline you're flying on... everything is done in faith and trust when you use such services.

Yeah, I agree you do! For hours prior aircraft from all over the world diverted around or turned back from entering this airspace. The airline took the risk to take off.

You're so advanced in your predictive abilities you would say "I don't think anything is going to be done right and this plane will get shot down, I'm going to de-plane or not get on it!" I highly, highly doubt it.

:blueguy: Really? Come on. No. It's risk mitigation.

Also, how many other planes took off and landed during that time? Dozens if not more? Are all those plane operators and passengers stupid too? Tehran isn't exactly a small airport.

Actually not many it was 6am, unfortunately it only takes one mistake. They delayed take off by an hour and then went for it. You can see the local traffic at the time using www.flightradar24.com
Here is the aircrafts flight path on FlightRadar:
https://i.imgur.com/hYlIoM5.jpg

US military saying now they have identified two launches in the vicinity of PS752, brutal :(

underscore

01-09-2020, 10:28 AM

A couple thousand dollars, a couple days, missing work or school or whatever... it's not worth your life.

That's easy to say when you have money and time to spare. Even if you have the money you now have to find a later flight (since there's no other way out of there), find somewhere to stay, and hope that things don't deteriorate further in the meantime. Given the current political climate that seems like a pretty likely to happen, so you're risking being completely stuck in the country. On top of that if someone's Visa expires before they're able to leave I've heard that sort of thing goes down really well in the Middle East.

68style

01-09-2020, 10:46 AM

I hope you live a long and full life JD13, but if you do die in an accident, I will try not to go over a list of seemingly (to me, from my ivory tower) obvious measures that I surmise you should have taken beforehand to have prevented it happening........................

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 10:47 AM

That's easy to say when you have money and time to spare. Even if you have the money you now have to find a later flight (since there's no other way out of there), find somewhere to stay, and hope that things don't deteriorate further in the meantime. Given the current political climate that seems like a pretty likely to happen, so you're risking being completely stuck in the country. On top of that if someone's Visa expires before they're able to leave I've heard that sort of thing goes down really well in the Middle East.
These people are DEAD man! Do you not think that the victims and their families would prefer to be alive and deal with those hardships than the alternative?! What a truly stupid statement, get some perspective.

EDIT:
LOL that's pretty much the same as those saying "I'm not a racist, but (insert ethnicity) people....."
Using 'stupid' was a poor and insensitive choice of words on my part. I was genuinely angry when I wrote that post because of how avoidable the scenario was. I apologize for that statement.

Mikoyan

01-09-2020, 11:09 AM

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1215337151967174656?s=19
Edit: Video is of the 2nd missile hit apparently.
Pretty interesting analysis of the video. The second link really ices it I think.
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1215360000295653379?s=19

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 11:55 AM

they just gave away that guy's position :heckno:

Mr.Money

01-09-2020, 11:55 AM

Hondaracer

01-09-2020, 12:25 PM

video is out - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/video/iran-plane-missile.html

survived the hit but later got compromised by the damage,it had enough to turn back to the airport but fell to pieces...imo the fuel had to be leaking after.

by mistake?...how the fuck? :rukidding: whoever was in charge of the air defense need to be sentenced to death.

100% missle by that vid if there was any doubt.

Like I said in my last post, how the fuck can it be a mistake when you’re firing AA rockets at the flight path of departing planes from your main airport..

westopher

01-09-2020, 12:41 PM

The demographic of the casualties certainly indicate it was a mistake. Iran certainly isn’t proving a point against the US other than complete combat incompetence by killing a bunch of Ukrainians, Canadians and their own citizens.

Now we are in a position where the military actions by our closest ally has resulted in the death of 63 of our citizens. And that’s a really, really fucking big deal.

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 12:48 PM

This tweet certainly raises eyebrows: https://twitter.com/HassanRouhani/status/1214236608196685824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1214236608196685824&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgulfnews.com%2Fworld%2Fmena% 2Frouhani-tells-trump-remember-the-number-290-1.1578385178334

The AA batteries would have been on the highest alert anticipating American aircraft. There are a lot of factors here, and they would have been tracking anything in the sky within range. It could have been something as simple as PS752 squawking the wrong code, or identifying, and the launch may have actually been automatic. Those are details we will probably never know. It doesn't change the outcome for the victims but there's a big difference for the families between an accident and a mistake. It's a very sad and angering situation.

underscore

01-09-2020, 12:48 PM

These people are DEAD man! Do you not think that the victims and their families would prefer to be alive and deal with those hardships than the alternative?! What a truly stupid statement, get some perspective.

Of course they do, but they don't get the convenient hindsight you have now. You talk about perspective and risk mitigation as if the potential for the plane to be shot down was the only risk to mitigate. My point (that apparently I didn't make clear enough) was that the alternatives to being on that plane have their own high risks given the location. This isn't getting stuck in a busy airport during the holidays, or choosing not to get on a plane from Seattle that you think looks a bit sketch, this is trying to GTFO of a country that President Spray Tan is wanting to commit war crimes against. When I say getting a later flight it's not just a matter of what flight to get on later that day, there may not be any other flights period if someone decides to shut everything down. When I say finding somewhere to stay it's not grab a cab to the nearest hotel or sleep in the airport, it's hoping you're not going to be somewhere hit by retaliatory action when some people are itching to turn the entire country you're in to glass.

They took a risk, some probably more knowingly than others, and unfortunately they were killed. But if the plane hadn't been shot down and someone opting not to get on it gets stuck in Iran people would be saying they were stupid not to leave when they had the chance.

vitaminG

01-09-2020, 01:00 PM

Been listening to coverage on radio. CBC basically has some guy blaming Trump for this. That pls Trudeau making a point of saying Iran did it unintentionally. Meanwhile Iran doing all it can to deny and cover up. Never been a Trudeau fan but this is disgusting.

No such thing as unintentionally or accidentally shooting down a commercial plane. Iran negligently killed dozens of Canadians.

Same country that has imprisoned and murdered Canadian journalists. We don't have an embassy there for a reason. Can't believe anyone would try to excuse Iran

StylinRed

01-09-2020, 01:08 PM

Every leader is saying it was likely by accident, even Trump.... Bcuz if it was a missile, it most certainly was unintentional

westopher

01-09-2020, 01:13 PM

But how will that narrative allow Canadians that “never liked him” to place blame upon Trudeau?

vitaminG

01-09-2020, 01:18 PM

You don't shoot down a commercial plane by accident, it's either stupidity or intent. If Trudeau had any balls he'd say something

westopher

01-09-2020, 01:41 PM

This is a big boy situation. Spouting off has consequences, and I’m quite happy we have a leader that will take that into consideration before any more innocent lives are lost as a result.
A couple days from now is when we can actually have a level headed opinion on how things have been or will be handled.

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 01:42 PM

Of course they do, but they don't get the convenient hindsight you have now. You talk about perspective and risk mitigation as if the potential for the plane to be shot down was the only risk to mitigate. My point (that apparently I didn't make clear enough) was that the alternatives to being on that plane have their own high risks given the location. This isn't getting stuck in a busy airport during the holidays, or choosing not to get on a plane from Seattle that you think looks a bit sketch, this is trying to GTFO of a country that President Spray Tan is wanting to commit war crimes against. When I say getting a later flight it's not just a matter of what flight to get on later that day, there may not be any other flights period if someone decides to shut everything down. When I say finding somewhere to stay it's not grab a cab to the nearest hotel or sleep in the airport, it's hoping you're not going to be somewhere hit by retaliatory action when some people are itching to turn the entire country you're in to glass.

They took a risk, some probably more knowingly than others, and unfortunately they were killed. But if the plane hadn't been shot down and someone opting not to get on it gets stuck in Iran people would be saying they were stupid not to leave when they had the chance.
I understand your point and we could go back and forth on what-ifs until we're blue in the face. The basic fact remains that this aircraft never should have taken off and I point blame squarely on the airline and controllers for putting it in danger in the first place. Its flight path was directly at an AA battery on the outskirts of Tehran immediately after they attacked American positions in Iraq. Putting a civilian aircraft there is grossly negligent.

StylinRed

01-09-2020, 01:44 PM

You don't shoot down a commercial plane by accident, it's either stupidity or intent. If Trudeau had any balls he'd say something

This seems like an apt moment to make use of the phrase "okay boomer"

68style

01-09-2020, 01:46 PM

Man those pilots are friggin heroes, managing to even take control to turn a plane that eviscerated around as much as they did... what a shit way to go

Bouncing Bettys

01-09-2020, 02:04 PM

I understand your point and we could go back and forth on what-ifs until we're blue in the face. The basic fact remains that this aircraft never should have taken off and I point blame squarely on the airline and controllers for putting it in danger in the first place. Its flight path was directly at an AA battery on the outskirts of Tehran immediately after they attacked American positions in Iraq. Putting a civilian aircraft there is grossly negligent.
This is mostly the point I poorly attempted to make. Did they choose to fly because the money was worth the risk, was it some noble effort knowing these people had little to know chance of getting out any other way, or did they believe in a false sense of safety in there being no chance the Iranians would attack a civilian plane, or some other possible motive?

Mikoyan

01-09-2020, 02:09 PM

mikemhg

01-09-2020, 02:14 PM

Jesus Christ, I can't believe some people would think this was done on purpose.

Why the fuck would Iran target a Ukrainian plane?

They literally launched missiles at a Iraqi/US base, giving them ample warning, and not killing a single person. You think they would then shoot down an airliner for shits and giggles?

This is why we get into these stupid wars, people don't use common sense.

I guarantee what likely occurred as someone else mentioned, missile defense systems were activated to anticipate any American retaliation, unfortunately that plane was targeted as a result.

It's very unfortunate, but I agree somewhat with JD13, I don't blame the passengers, but damn that plane should not have been in the air at that particular time, terrible circumstances.

What is Trudeau supposed to say? LOL. We're still ironing out the details of what even occurred here, I feel like we're in the lead up to Iraq all over again here ffs, what is with some people's amnesia?

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 02:29 PM

'don't let this distract you from Trump's impeachment' or 'Trudeau please grow balls' comments are ridiculous at such critical time

sure Trump withdrawing from the nuclear plan didn't help and reignited this chain reaction but if you really want to blame our ally then it should be on the Bush dynasty for installing so many bases out that way

what we should be doing is blasting Iran for trying to cover this up, the blood is on their hands and they should answer to the number of Canadian innocents lost

Hondaracer

01-09-2020, 02:43 PM

i feel like just saying it was an accident or unintentional seems like such a cop out, or at the very least, does not do this situation justice.

it wasnt simply an accident like somone forgot to set your parking brake and you rolled into the vehicle in front of you. You had an AA battery pointed towards the civilian airport and shot at a comercial plane taking a normal departure route..

StylinRed

01-09-2020, 03:10 PM

Man those pilots are friggin heroes, managing to even take control to turn a plane that eviscerated around as much as they did... what a shit way to go

Not sure if it's accurate, or even true, but a witness said it looked like the plane also turned so that it'd crash into a field rather than a densely packed residential area. Just picturing that gets quite emotional

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 03:27 PM

outcome of the '88 killings: US paid out the victims

outcome of the 2014 killings: nothing??

outcome of this: Canada/Iran probably gonna do jack shit as well

think about all the Persians in Vancouver and beyond...must be a gut-wrenching feeling for them to watch all this unfold

i feel like just saying it was an accident or unintentional seems like such a cop out, or at the very least, does not do this situation justice.

it wasnt simply an accident like somone forgot to set your parking brake and you rolled into the vehicle in front of you. You had an AA battery pointed towards the civilian airport and shot at a comercial plane taking a normal departure route..

fog of war

the cases of friendly fires are chilling...even when their command is to hold off while targets are being confirmed..they've already made up their mind to pull the trigger

PeanutButter

01-09-2020, 03:38 PM

You don't shoot down a commercial plane by accident, it's either stupidity or intent. If Trudeau had any balls he'd say something

Is an accident and stupidity mutually exclusive?

hud 91gt

01-09-2020, 03:48 PM

How are you all confirming Iran is the one who made the mistake? Could a “mistake” have been just as easily made by the US?

Everyone stop jumping to conclusions. Pretty upsetting for everyone involved. I’m sure everyone on board just wanted to get the hell out of there. The crew was just trying to get home. Scary stuff.

donjalapeno

01-09-2020, 04:09 PM

Definitely looks like it was shot down.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/video/iran-plane-missile.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

JD¹³

01-09-2020, 05:05 PM

How are you all confirming Iran is the one who made the mistake? Could a “mistake” have been just as easily made by the US?
Radar data, IR signatures, and intercepted radio transmissions. Fired from an SA-15 aka TOR M1, IRGC unit, four man crew, one officer. Americans were staring right at Tehran when it happened.

boostfever

01-09-2020, 05:54 PM

I just got back from Tehran in mid-November :pokerface:
and I was just talking to my travel agent last week, she suggested the Kiev stop is quite popular now as European flights are very limited to Tehran. No airliners other than Lufthansa are flying to Tehran since a couple years ago.
I'll have to go back pretty soon too..

twitchyzero

01-09-2020, 06:48 PM

you could try US Navy which will soon start service to Tehran :troll:

Mikoyan

01-09-2020, 09:35 PM

I hear the Air Force has door to door drop off service.
https://giphy.com/gifs/stanley-kubrick-1964-dr-strangelove-uH27sheFg9Onehttps://giphy.com/gifs/stanley-kubrick-1964-dr-strangelove-uH27sheFg9One

Hondaracer

01-10-2020, 09:10 AM

https://i.imgur.com/VqiGRnP.jpg

Great68

01-10-2020, 10:28 AM

You had an AA battery pointed towards the civilian airport and shot at a comercial plane taking a normal departure route..

Iran Air 655 anyone?

jasonturbo

01-10-2020, 10:43 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_Program

23 satellites circling the globe at all times, the US AF almost certainly has evidence that Iran shot down the plane, never mind the videos or photographs, the obvious effort by Iran to prevent any meaningful independent investigation, or the comments Iranian leadership have made since the incident.

The only reason people assume Iran shot the plane down in err is because the idea that they did it intentionally is so disgusting. Personally, I believe the most likely scenario to be that Iran shot the plane down intentionally believing that the international community would point the finger at the USA.

Iranians are wonderful people, however, the Iranian government is evil.

Trudeau is in a tough spot, I feel like he's doing the best he can given the circumstances.

boostfever

01-10-2020, 10:51 AM

https://i.imgur.com/VqiGRnP.jpg

In none of the initial videos and photos from the wreckage , didn't see that kids playground or the light pole. that looks like a random spot.

RRxtar

01-10-2020, 11:08 AM

Why is everyone talking about this flight like it was the only flight to take off so it could have been mistaken as an enemy plane as if that is a reason it could be a mistake? According to flight tracker there were flights taking off all morning before the ukranian one. It's not like this flight was the only one or the first one that tried to sneak out. Lufthansa flew out an hour after the missile strikes. Ukrainian air was like 6 hours later

Great68

01-10-2020, 02:44 PM

The theory that Iranians purposefully shot down a plane full of their own people (The Canadians onboard were dual citizens, and entered on Iran on their Iranian passports) for nefarious reasons has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Given that just hours earlier they shot missiles at US bases, someone manning the missile site just fucked up and probably thought they were under attack and now they're just trying to hide their incompetence.

When the USA downed Iran Air Flight 655, they lied about a bunch of the details as well.

And of course, this whole situation would never have happened if the US didn't just off one of their generals without any warning.

StylinRed

01-10-2020, 05:32 PM

Put this in the wrong Thread, just moving it here

It's not just Canadian and Ukrainian investigators that are granted access, US investigators have been allowed in as well

An Iranian official told Reuters the US had been formally invited to take part in the investigation, and the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) confirmed it had assigned an investigator.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51053220

whitev70r

01-10-2020, 07:07 PM

Iranian TV finally admits truth

Ukrainian plane was 'unintentionally' shot down, Iran state TV says
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-jetliner-unintentionally-shot-down-1.5423608

westopher

01-10-2020, 07:41 PM

Well that lie sure didn’t last long.

Hehe

01-10-2020, 08:09 PM

I think the case was pretty much set in stone when US, CA and UK all came out officially (with CA/UK own PM!) to point it at Iran.

They clearly had the necessary proof, beyond any reasonable and logical doubts, in intel to have our own PM to come up with such a statement.

Mr.Money

01-10-2020, 09:05 PM

whoever the SAM system operator was is getting death by hanging,hopefully.

all flights have some sort of transponders for ID in the Air,they fired at a whelm because it changed direction :rukidding: that's not even a proper reason

on what chain of command was anyone told to fire anything?..something tells me a group of monkeys did their own thing in a split second...shoot first,ask questions later type of stupidity.

newer radar technology doesn't mean anything when you got shit for brain soldiers on the ground with this type of 10 IQ thinking.

Badhobz

01-10-2020, 09:26 PM

https://apnews.com/21f4a92a2dfbc38581719664bdf6f38e

looks like Iran shot it down unintentionally.

Manic!

01-11-2020, 01:02 AM

Who wouldn't be Under pressure after an orange orangutan threatens to blow up 53 cultural sites. But hey he just had a great rally and he has a busy weekend golfing.

belka

01-11-2020, 06:03 AM

And of course, this whole situation would never have happened if the US didn't just off one of their generals without any warning.

You are delusional, a civilian plane shot down in Iran, by Iran, has nothing to do with the US, escalated or not. It’s even more idiotic blaming Trump for all this, killing a military general is a completely legal target and justified. Iran had the ultimate power and they pressed the button. Once the missiles started flying the airspace should have been immediately shut down to airline flights.

Ludepower

01-11-2020, 06:26 AM

Fact is pubic orange hair trump killed a top iranian general. Innocent canadians become collateral damage cause of it. This happened within a span of days so its logical to put 2 and 2 together.

I dont care who's right or wrong or about these 2 shitty countries fighting for oil. My only concern was for the canadians. Now that Iran admits fault. We can continue this never ending war. Just keep canada out of it.

Manic!

01-11-2020, 09:45 AM

You are delusional, a civilian plane shot down in Iran, by Iran, has nothing to do with the US, escalated or not. It’s even more idiotic blaming Trump for all this, killing a military general is a completely legal target and justified.

How was it justified?

fT-z33wor

01-11-2020, 02:46 PM

newer radar technology doesn't mean anything when you got shit for brain soldiers on the ground with this type of 10 IQ thinking.

It's 80's Russian technology. Unlike a lot of active/passive missiles that are almost autonomous once fired, this one requires targeting data to be continuously fed to it to know where to go.

belka

01-11-2020, 02:49 PM

How was it justified?

The entire regime of Iran are pieces of shit that need to be killed off before the country can become part of the western world.

JD¹³

01-11-2020, 03:07 PM

The entire regime of Iran are pieces of shit that need to be killed off before the country can become part of the western world.
*Modern world. They don't have to be Western, they just need leadership that allows basic human rights and their own country and culture to flourish. Given the huge protests in Iran happening right now (as they have in the past) its obvious that the regime does not represent the citizens and needs to go.

This past week has been a huge L L L for Iran. Salami taken out, Iran leadership shows how scared they are of the US by launching essentially a fake attack giving the enemy almost six hours warning, and then having their "elite" IRGC 'accidentally' murder 176 civilians proving they are in no way responsible or capable enough to have modern/nuclear weapons. All under the biggest international spotlight possible. The Ayatollah and his peons should just lay down and rot, the gig is up.

twitchyzero

01-11-2020, 03:18 PM

Who wouldn't be Under pressure after an orange orangutan threatens to blow up 53 cultural sites. But hey he just had a great rally and he has a busy weekend golfing.

5 years on and you're still getting high blood pressure from the Donald's internet diarrhea?

but hey, golfing is related to an airliner that went down

Manic!

01-11-2020, 04:01 PM

The entire regime of Iran are pieces of shit that need to be killed off before the country can become part of the western world.

Maybe if the US had not overthrown a democratically elected president we wouldn't be dealing with this shit now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

The US foreign policy is garbage. They are the ones who supplied Saddam with WMD's during the Iran Iraq war.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

They also the Taliban with weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_equipment_used_by_mujahideen_duri ng_Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

boostfever

01-11-2020, 04:08 PM

^all valid points. the 1953 coup was the start of the mess.
The regime is very comfortable where they are now, and have a lot of resources to do whatever they are pleased with. People are the ones suffering from the U.S sanctions.

RRxtar

01-11-2020, 04:50 PM

Manic logic: Orange man bad for US foreign policy in 1953

Manic!

01-11-2020, 05:27 PM

Manic logic: Orange man bad for US foreign policy in 1953

Also, the US gave Saddam weapons in the '80s to fight them plus all the sanctions and the Iraq war. I think Iran is pissed off about that too.

Orange man bad because he killed a General in the Iran military to distract from his impeachment.

The US had 2 targets but only succeeded in killing one. The reason for the attacks? Who knows it's changed multiple times. From an immediate threat to Americans to imminent attacks to 4 US embassies to revenge for killing an American contractor to Bush and Obama should have killed him years ago.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/07/politics/qasem-soleimani-reasons-justifications/index.html

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2019/07/trump_iran1.jpg?resize=1932,1984

twitchyzero

01-11-2020, 08:04 PM

Sad!

belka

01-11-2020, 08:46 PM

Manic logic: Orange man bad for US foreign policy in 1953

Orange man will be re-elected this year the way things are going, then you’ll really see how triggered these snowflakes can get.

Manic!

01-11-2020, 10:42 PM

Orange man will be re-elected this year the way things are going, then you’ll really see how triggered these snowflakes can get.

176 people dead and all you can think about is your man crush being elected.

Ludepower

01-11-2020, 10:58 PM

Iran admits fault. Gives us canadians some closure while we go back to not caring about other countries fetishes for war.

My que to leave this thread and smoke some legal weed.

westopher

01-12-2020, 05:30 AM

Orange man will be re-elected this year the way things are going, then you’ll really see how triggered these snowflakes can get.

It’s pathetic, especially in a conversation like this, about a topic like this to still go back to that same old shit. “Trump 2020, snowflakes triggered!”
Don’t cut yourself on all that edge.

whitev70r

01-12-2020, 06:29 AM

Was going to + you for this:
176 people dead and all you can think about is your man crush being elected.

but then I remember just a few posts before ... you started this Trump bullshit tangent with this:

Who wouldn't be Under pressure after an orange orangutan threatens to blow up 53 cultural sites. But hey he just had a great rally and he has a busy weekend golfing.

belka

01-12-2020, 06:46 AM

It’s pathetic, especially in a conversation like this, about a topic like this to still go back to that same old shit. “Trump 2020, snowflakes triggered!”
Don’t cut yourself on all that edge.

It’s pathetic some of the fucktards on this forum start blaming Trump because of their triggered political views. I didn’t bring up the Trump thing but I was waiting for one of the libtards to start being idiots.

whitev70r

01-12-2020, 06:51 AM

^I would trace it to Manic!

Manic!

01-12-2020, 10:21 AM

It’s pathetic some of the fucktards on this forum start blaming Trump because of their triggered political views. I didn’t bring up the Trump thing but I was waiting for one of the libtards to start being idiots.

When is the last time Iran shot down a civilian plane? You think it's some type of coincidence that this happened after trump killed soleimani, threatened to bomb 52 cultural sites, and Iran fired missiles at a US base?

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/01/05/06/23003810-0-image-a-19_1578204146243.jpg

mikemhg

01-12-2020, 12:14 PM

belka

01-12-2020, 12:54 PM

"Libtards?" you sound like a fucking idiot man, those tired taglines are boring.

Thanks for coming in here and contributing nothing to this thread, like the rest of you tinfoil hat idiots blaming trump and supporting Iranian terrorism. I suggest you move to Toronto to be with the rest of the deranged lunatics.

Manic!

01-12-2020, 01:05 PM

Thanks for coming in here and contributing nothing to this thread, like the rest of you tinfoil hat idiots blaming trump and supporting Iranian terrorism. I suggest you move to Toronto to be with the rest of the deranged lunatics.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6393840/david-frum-iran-plane-crash/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

watch the video. Also David Frum is a conservative.

While Iran appears to have shot down Flight 752, U.S. President Donald Trump helped create the context of escalation in the region, says David Frum of The Atlantic.

belka

01-12-2020, 01:09 PM

https://globalnews.ca/news/6393840/david-frum-iran-plane-crash/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

While Iran appears to have shot down Flight 752, U.S. President Donald Trump helped create the context of escalation in the region, says David Frum of The Atlantic.

watch the video. Also David Frum is a conservative.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/GCvktC0KFy9l6/source.gif

twitchyzero

01-12-2020, 01:35 PM

suggesting the POTUS caused disability in the region in recent weeks, there seems to be a good argument for that

stretching it out to say the main reason Soleimani was killed was to occupy Americans with anything but the impeachment, oh ok thanks internet that seems legit...might as well suggest Trudeau to do every press conference in black face as if things arent divided enough as is

really looking forward to hearing about Trump tied into every world event 20 times a day for another 5 years

Manic!

01-12-2020, 02:17 PM

stretching it out to say the main reason Soleimani was killed was to occupy Americans with anything but the impeachment, oh ok thanks internet that seems legit

That's exactly what trump suggested when Obama was in power.

If you didn't see it the first time I will post it again.

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2019/07/trump_iran1.jpg?resize=1932,1984

So you either believe trump that a president would attack Iran to save face or you are saying trump is a nutcase conspiracy theorist. Pick one.

Manic!

01-12-2020, 11:02 PM

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/politics-news-pmn/maple-leaf-ceo-flays-u-s-government-after-iran-plane-crash

CEO of a multi-billion dollar company.

Maple Leaf Foods Inc Chief Executive Officer Michael McCain criticized the U.S. government for escalating tensions in the Middle East, after an Iranian missile accidentally shot down a Ukrainian airliner killing 176 people onboard, including an employee’s family.

“A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran. U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes,” McCain said in a tweet posted on the company’s Twitter account on Sunday.

SkinnyPupp

01-13-2020, 12:51 AM

belka

01-13-2020, 06:15 AM

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/politics-news-pmn/maple-leaf-ceo-flays-u-s-government-after-iran-plane-crash

CEO of a multi-billion dollar company.

Orange man bad! Stick to your job idiot.

Bouncing Bettys

01-13-2020, 08:18 AM

https://twitter.com/JJ_McCullough/status/1216494798217019394

The Iranian people have renewed protests against their government in the wake of this attack and its good to see.

Meanwhile #NancyPelosiFakeNews is trending because the military industrial complex funded establishment Dems are downplaying these protests as it conflicts with Orange Man Bad.

JD¹³

01-13-2020, 08:35 AM

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/politics-news-pmn/maple-leaf-ceo-flays-u-s-government-after-iran-plane-crash

CEO of a multi-billion dollar company.
Who gives a shit what this guy thinks. He lives in an entitled bubble and should stay in his perfect little lane. He clearly has no idea of the history behind the conflict and influence Iran has had in the region through Quds Force operations. He doesn't understand who Qasem Soleimani was and frankly I don't think you do either. He is as legit a target as it gets. He was Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi in a uniform and if Bush or Obama could have taken him out they would have.

It is NOT Donald Trumps fault that an Iranian AA crew cannot do basic IFF and interpret basic radar data and not tell the difference between a cruise missile (very small) and a 737-800 (very big) while sitting in the departure path of their busiest airport. It's absolutely asinine to blame American leadership for them pulling the trigger on innocent holiday travelers FailFish

For anyone wanting a good intro in to who this General was, start here. This is a decent summary:
https://gem.cbc.ca/media/the-passionate-eye/episode-154/38e815a-012294ba926

Manic!

01-13-2020, 10:05 AM

Who gives a shit what this guy thinks. He lives in an entitled bubble and should stay in his perfect little lane. He clearly has no idea of the history behind the conflict and influence Iran has had in the region through Quds Force operations. He doesn't understand who Qasem Soleimani was and frankly I don't think you do either. He is as legit a target as it gets. He was Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi in a uniform and if Bush or Obama could have taken him out they would have.

It is NOT Donald Trumps fault that an Iranian AA crew cannot do basic IFF and interpret basic radar data and not tell the difference between a cruise missile (very small) and a 737-800 (very big) while sitting in the departure path of their busiest airport. It's absolutely asinine to blame American leadership for them pulling the trigger on innocent holiday travelers FailFish

For anyone wanting a good intro in to who this General was, start here. This is a decent summary:
https://gem.cbc.ca/media/the-passionate-eye/episode-154/38e815a-012294ba926

What about trump he was born with a silver spoon in his ass and has never worked a hard day in his life. You can tell by the way he talks he has never been in a real fight in his life. Tell me what does a condo developer knows about the history of Iran?

13 governments signed the Iran nuclear deal only one broke the contract and that was because trump did not like the fact Obama's name was on it.

fT-z33wor

01-13-2020, 11:15 AM

It is NOT Donald Trumps fault that an Iranian AA crew cannot do basic IFF and interpret basic radar data and not tell the difference between a cruise missile (very small) and a 737-800 (very big) while sitting in the departure path of their busiest airport. It's absolutely asinine to blame American leadership for them pulling the trigger on innocent holiday travelers FailFish

Was sort of thinking the same thing, they would have been squawking modes and codes. Plus based on contact's speed, bearing and elevation it's normally distinguishable. Not to mention even the missile's flight profile in its terminal phase.

JD¹³

01-13-2020, 11:31 AM

What about trump he was born with a silver spoon in his ass and has never worked a hard day in his life. You can tell by the way he talks he has never been in a real fight in his life. Tell me what does a condo developer knows about the history of Iran?

As the Commander-in-Chief Trump knows infinitely more than you and some random meat company executive EVER will :blueguy:

13 governments signed the Iran nuclear deal only one broke the contract and that was because trump did not like the fact Obama's name was on it.
This whole post is standard deflection, hyperbole, and conjecture from you. Straight garbage, good thing no one takes you seriously :lol

Manic!

01-13-2020, 01:12 PM

This whole post is standard deflection, hyperbole, and conjecture from you. Straight garbage, good thing no one takes you seriously :lol

Trump was talking shit way before he was elected when he was just a shitty condo developer. He attacked Obama a number of times while he was acting on TV.

boostfever

01-13-2020, 03:01 PM

Iranian people have been fighting this regime in the streets since what, November? Hundreds dead, thousands wounded, 10's of thousands improsioned, among a total internet blackout...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/01/world/middleeast/iran-protests-deaths.html

America supports them by killing one of the generals responsible for all these deaths, and suddenly people are talking about WW3, and Trump doing this to somehow make himself get re-elected.

I wonder how different reactions would be if it was Obama in office doing the exact same thing. :considered:

I know Trump is a buffoon but people get way too caught up on him instead of stuff that matters.

The protest you wrote about has not been continuing since November. yes, there were protests after the fuel price jump in Mid November, some people were killed (no official count unfortunately), lasted about a week, same time the internet access was limited. 10s of thousands imprisoned? Highly doubt it.

there was another protest couple days ago after Iran admitted fault on shooting the plane down. Few people were arrested in front of their university, no shooting thankfully this time..

Trump killed the general in support of the Iranian people? Oh please. FailFish
U.S. had been planning to kill that general since at least 7 months ago. It's amazing how people relate everything to each other without much knowledge of what's actually going on in the region. And what's more amazing is that people claim that Trump cares about Iranian people... he doesn't.

When Trump had the chance to retaliate after U.S. bases were hit by Iranian missiles he comes out and tweets "All is well" as if stock market had a minor crash or something. Guy is a fucking joke, really. He's not after changing the regime in Iran, hence he won't do anything for the Iranian people, therefore he can shut up sending tweets and making false claims about supporting the people.

twitchyzero

01-13-2020, 03:58 PM

found Manic!

“I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry,” McCain wrote on Maple Leaf’s official account. “U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/maple-leafs-food-ceo-criticizes-the-narcissist-in-washington-after-iran-deaths

SkinnyPupp

01-13-2020, 04:58 PM

The protest you wrote about has not been continuing since November. yes, there were protests after the fuel price jump in Mid November, some people were killed (no official count unfortunately), lasted about a week, same time the internet access was limited. 10s of thousands imprisoned? Highly doubt it.

there was another protest couple days ago after Iran admitted fault on shooting the plane down. Few people were arrested in front of their university, no shooting thankfully this time..

Trump killed the general in support of the Iranian people? Oh please. FailFish
U.S. had been planning to kill that general since at least 7 months ago. It's amazing how people relate everything to each other without much knowledge of what's actually going on in the region. And what's more amazing is that people claim that Trump cares about Iranian people... he doesn't.

When Trump had the chance to retaliate after U.S. bases were hit by Iranian missiles he comes out and tweets "All is well" as if stock market had a minor crash or something. Guy is a fucking joke, really. He's not after changing the regime in Iran, hence he won't do anything for the Iranian people, therefore he can shut up sending tweets and making false claims about supporting the people.
"Trump" killed Soleimani because he's a terrorist who is a threat to America. He is also a threat to Iran, so killing him supported them as well. Not sure what's controversial about that but hope this clears it up.

Manic!

01-13-2020, 06:43 PM

"Trump" killed Soleimani because he's a terrorist who is a threat to America. He is also a threat to Iran, so killing him supported them as well. Not sure what's controversial about that but hope this clears it up.

How was he a threat to Iran? he was a general in the Iranian army. If Iran had a problem with him they would have dealt with it. Explain to me how he was a threat to people living in America.

From a new interview with Justin Trudeau.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6404191/justin-trudeau-iran-plane-crash-2020/

“If there were no tensions, if there was no escalation recently in the region, those Canadians would be right now home with their families,” said Trudeau.

“This is something that happens when you have conflict and war. Innocents bear the brunt of it and it is a reminder why all of us need to work so hard on de-escalation, moving forward to reduce tensions and find a pathway that doesn’t involve further conflict and killing.”

boostfever

01-13-2020, 10:09 PM

"Trump" killed Soleimani because he's a terrorist who is a threat to America. He is also a threat to Iran, so killing him supported them as well. Not sure what's controversial about that but hope this clears it up.

Threat to America? maybe, even though he was battling in the front line against the ISIS. (maybe that made U.S. upset too?)
Threat to the Iranian people? not really, this guy was a general of the army responsible for activities outside of Iranian borders.

There are far worse officials out there U.S. could get rid of, IF they were truly looking out for the Iranian people. Saying U.S. did this in support of Iranians protesting is in fact, a joke.

SkinnyPupp

01-14-2020, 12:03 AM

Threat to America? maybe, even though he was battling in the front line against the ISIS. (maybe that made U.S. upset too?)
Threat to the Iranian people? not really, this guy was a general of the army responsible for activities outside of Iranian borders.

There are far worse officials out there U.S. could get rid of, IF they were truly looking out for the Iranian people. Saying U.S. did this in support of Iranians protesting is in fact, a joke.
Why do I have to explain to you that sometimes things are mutually beneficial two different groups.

And if you don't think Soleimani was a threat to the Iranian people (not people in his government, but actual real people) then why am I bothering at all? They've been protesting against his regime since November. 1500 people killed in 3 months. 7000 imprisoned. Yeah, what a great fucking guy. Really looking out for the welfare of Iran FailFish

Read a bit more about him here (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander?verso=true), from like 6 years ago when not many people were talking about him yet. Or not, just stick with the "Trump is bad WW3 lol" rhetoric. Dude is pure evil.

This whole post is standard deflection, hyperbole, and conjecture from you. Straight garbage, good thing no one takes you seriously :lol

I don't want to be rude, but what happened to the decent discourse that used to take place here? Now it's nothing but fucking logical fallacies thrown up any time a point is made.

Manic!

01-14-2020, 12:26 AM

Why do I have to explain to you that sometimes things are mutually beneficial two different groups.

And if you don't think Soleimani was a threat to the Iranian people (not people in his government, but actual real people) then why am I bothering at all? They've been protesting against his regime since November. 1500 people killed in 3 months. 7000 imprisoned. Yeah, what a great fucking guy. Really looking out for the welfare of Iran FailFish

Read a bit more about him here (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander?verso=true), from like 6 years ago when not many people were talking about him yet. Or not, just stick with the "Trump is bad WW3 lol" rhetoric. Dude is pure evil.

I don't want to be rude, but what happened to the decent discourse that used to take place here? Now it's nothing but fucking logical fallacies thrown up any time a point is made.

And right next to Iran is Saudi Arabia a country that beheads protesters.

This kid was arrested at 13 for protesting. Now that he is 18 they want to chop his head off.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/10/saudi-teenager-could-face-execution-protests-child-murtaja-qureiris

Report from human rights watch
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/saudi-arabia

More info on protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/saudi-arabias-barbaric-price-for-protest/2018/08/24/daed2a64-a640-11e8-97ce-cc9042272f07_story.html

Let's not forget the killing of reporter Jamal Khashoggi.

But trump will not do anything about be he is best buds with Saudi Arabia and his son in law has a direct line to the king.

SkinnyPupp

01-14-2020, 12:35 AM

And right next to Iran is Saudi Arabia a country that beheads protesters.

This kid was arrested at 13 for protesting. Now that he is 18 they want to chop his head off.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/10/saudi-teenager-could-face-execution-protests-child-murtaja-qureiris

Report from human rights watch
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/saudi-arabia

More info on protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/saudi-arabias-barbaric-price-for-protest/2018/08/24/daed2a64-a640-11e8-97ce-cc9042272f07_story.html

Let's not forget the killing of reporter Jamal Khashoggi.

But trump will not do anything about be he is best buds with Saudi Arabia and his son in law has a direct line to the king.
The topic here is Iran

JD¹³

01-14-2020, 12:43 AM

I don't want to be rude, but what happened to the decent discourse that used to take place here? Now it's nothing but fucking logical fallacies thrown up any time a point is made.
Unfortunately too many people state their opinion while having little to no knowledge on the subject. People who pay attention to world events know about the long history of protests against the Iranian regime by its citizens over the years, and that the IRGC acts as the equivalent of both the FBI and CIA and takes heavy-handed action against dissent within its own country. When it comes to people like Manic as an example he can never admit he's wrong and will religiously ignore relevant points and derail the topic away from anything proving he's wrong. He's doing exactly that right now in this thread. He's also been caught posting fraudulent opinion as fact on multiple occasions to try and save face (a LOT in the Canadian politics thread). It's not even trolling, it's willful ignorance and an online forum gives anyone and everyone a megaphone.

boostfever

01-14-2020, 12:45 AM

Why do I have to explain to you that sometimes things are mutually beneficial two different groups.

And if you don't think Soleimani was a threat to the Iranian people (not people in his government, but actual real people) then why am I bothering at all? They've been protesting against his regime since November. 1500 people killed in 3 months. 7000 imprisoned. Yeah, what a great fucking guy. Really looking out for the welfare of Iran FailFish

Read a bit more about him here (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander?verso=true), from like 6 years ago when not many people were talking about him yet. Or not, just stick with the "Trump is bad WW3 lol" rhetoric. Dude is pure evil.
I just like to clear up that within the past two years, I spent over 14 months in Iran. I'm not your typical guy here watching fox or cnn, or reading another American written media coverage.

This guy, Soleimani, was frankly blown a bit out of proportion. In Iran and out of Iran. And that's what the system does in iran. They make idols out of their own people and the west noticed this particular guy, because : 1) he was boots on the ground and in the front lines killing the ISIS, 2) his activities were outside of Iranian borders. Now, saying this one single guy is the regime, is just plain wrong. Removing the number one guy, supreme leader, might do some serious damage, but even then everyone is replaceable, just as they already put another commander in Soleimani's place. My point is, Trump doesn't want to change the system in Iran. And killing this soleimani guy did not really change anything in the system; everyone already forgot about him, seems like he was expired anyway.
As for the protests, those numbers are not official, definitely not 1500 dead or that many imprisoned. The protests weren't that long, lasted less than a week; around 400 dead and less than 1000 imprisoned.

Manic!

01-14-2020, 01:13 AM

The topic here is Iran

The topic is why trump killed him and escalated tensions in the middle east causing the death of over 170 people. Every day the story changes from the Whitehouse.

SkinnyPupp

01-14-2020, 01:52 AM

I just like to clear up that within the past two years, I spent over 14 months in Iran. I'm not your typical guy here watching fox or cnn, or reading another American written media coverage.

This guy, Soleimani, was frankly blown a bit out of proportion. In Iran and out of Iran. And that's what the system does in iran. They make idols out of their own people and the west noticed this particular guy, because : 1) he was boots on the ground and in the front lines killing the ISIS, 2) his activities were outside of Iranian borders. Now, saying this one single guy is the regime, is just plain wrong. Removing the number one guy, supreme leader, might do some serious damage, but even then everyone is replaceable, just as they already put another commander in Soleimani's place. My point is, Trump doesn't want to change the system in Iran. And killing this soleimani guy did not really change anything in the system; everyone already forgot about him, seems like he was expired anyway.
As for the protests, those numbers are not official, definitely not 1500 dead or that many imprisoned. The protests weren't that long, lasted less than a week; around 400 dead and less than 1000 imprisoned.
I'm glad you're able to offer a unique perspective on all this, especially presumably hearing a lot of propaganda from the Iranian side.

You question the death toll of 1500 people, provided by Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-protests-specialreport/special-report-irans-leader-ordered-crackdown-on-unrest-do-whatever-it-takes-to-end-it-idUSKBN1YR0QR) citing Iranian insiders. You refute that number based on what?

Reuters has come up with some fascinating leaks in China and HK, which end up being proven later, so I tend to believe what they say.

As far as saying "this one guy is the whole regime", I admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but I don't know where you got that quote from. So I can't really respond any further. That would be an absolutely idiotic thing to say, to the point where I think whoever told you that may have brain damage, or they are just trolling you. Ignore people who are that stupid. I had to do the same in the HK thread, and now it's dead unfortunately.

mikemhg

01-14-2020, 11:23 AM

threezero

01-14-2020, 12:38 PM

It's interesting.

A friend of mine who I debate quite often with and is a market trader, fully believes that Iran and the US coordinated the attack Soleimani together, and that the Iranian government "wanted" to get rid of him.

He claims this is the case because the oil markets moved heavily after the assassination, and a bunch of folks made quite a lot of money as a result.

I have not heard such theory before, and I disagree with him, but it's fascinating that some people are coming to that conclusion.

I dunno about that.

The oil market always move bigly whenever destablization happens in the middle east. Let not kid ourselves, The world superpower's interest in the middle east is based on the oil reserve NOT humanitarian crisis.
It doesn't neccesary point to a conspiracy.

Those that seriously believe America/Trump killed Soleimani to "liberate" the Iranian people need to check themselves.

There is always a reason the State intervene or not intervene in another nation's business. its always to its own interest and all the bullshit about "saving the people" is just that, bullshit and propganda.

USA can easily top Soleimani's 1500 death highscore in a matter of minutes.

JD¹³

01-14-2020, 02:47 PM

New video shows the launching of the two missiles was 30 seconds apart. This is no longer an accident.

https://nypost.com/2020/01/14/iran-plan-crash-video-shows-two-military-missiles-strike-ukraine-plane/

fT-z33wor

01-14-2020, 03:14 PM

boostfever

01-14-2020, 03:15 PM

I'm glad you're able to offer a unique perspective on all this, especially presumably hearing a lot of propaganda from the Iranian side.

You question the death toll of 1500 people, provided by Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-protests-specialreport/special-report-irans-leader-ordered-crackdown-on-unrest-do-whatever-it-takes-to-end-it-idUSKBN1YR0QR) citing Iranian insiders. You refute that number based on what?

Reuters has come up with some fascinating leaks in China and HK, which end up being proven later, so I tend to believe what they say.

Well, you mentioned in your earlier post that protests have been going on for 3 months, which is inaccurate. Media (including Reuters) exaggerate the numbers here and there; the reality is protests were only in a few big cities and didn't last too long. There are a few outlets here and there (BBC) suggesting 400 were dead which is closer to the reality. (I really hope it isn't 1500) Obviously none of the sources are from the regime side. They never admitted killing anyone and no numbers are coming from them. There was a bigger protest exactly two years ago in January, that one had more casualties unfortunately.

New video shows the launching of the two missiles was 30 seconds apart. This is no longer an accident.

https://nypost.com/2020/01/14/iran-plan-crash-video-shows-two-military-missiles-strike-ukraine-plane/
Interesting, but if it wasn't an accident, then why would they deliberately do such a thing, knowing the truth would eventually come out and make them look like idiots?
And it's not like there were any American/military/or person of interest on that flight, just a bunch of ordinary citizens of other counties, and students and families from Iran..

donjalapeno

01-14-2020, 04:18 PM

Interesting, but if it wasn't an accident, then why would they deliberately do such a thing, knowing the truth would eventually come out and make them look like idiots?
And it's not like there were any American/military/or person of interest on that flight, just a bunch of ordinary citizens of other counties, and students and families from Iran..

It's because the government is fucked. They cannot be trusted. They are corrupt, they don't give two shits about the people of Iran, They do whatever they want all in the name of religion and then enforce whatever they want in the name of religion. Mixing religion and politics is never a good idea. The Shah needs to take over, I don't care how it happens but until it happens the people will never be free.

They fired those missiles for a reason that we don't know about. It could have been a person of interest, they could have just been flexing for America but who knows. I can bet money that it was a reason to somehow to benefit the government.

I'm Persian/Canadian btw. Born and raised here however I've travelled to Iran a couple of times and hated every second. Will never go back until the mullahs are out.

This is my last contribution to the thread because it makes my blood boil reading about the dumb shit this government does.

Rest in Peace to the people on the flight and my condolences to all those affected by the loss of a loved one.

Infiniti

01-14-2020, 05:42 PM

It's because the government is fucked. They cannot be trusted. They are corrupt, they don't give two shits about the people of Iran, They do whatever they want all in the name of religion and then enforce whatever they want in the name of religion. Mixing religion and politics is never a good idea. The Shah needs to take over, I don't care how it happens but until it happens the people will never be free.

They fired those missiles for a reason that we don't know about. It could have been a person of interest, they could have just been flexing for America but who knows. I can bet money that it was a reason to somehow to benefit the government.

I'm Persian/Canadian btw. Born and raised here however I've travelled to Iran a couple of times and hated every second. Will never go back until the mullahs are out.

This is my last contribution to the thread because it makes my blood boil reading about the dumb shit this government does.

Rest in Peace to the people on the flight and my condolences to all those affected by the loss of a loved one.

Hmmm, I'm not so convinced about that one

JD¹³

01-15-2020, 01:55 PM

Aren't sams normally fired in salvos of 2 brotha.
Not always, myriad of factors. In this case the airliner was close to the battery which is designed for short range intercepts. They should have been able to visually ID the target as the TOR M1 has an optical tracking IR camera. The first missile struck the target and another was fired a full ten seconds after the threat was neutralized. A second missile CAN fire automatically if the onboard computers determine the threat remains based on telemetry or it can be engaged again manually; but they also have the ability to kill the launches. They shot the airliner, would have been able to visually see it as an airliner and not a missile (not to mention its known track, climb, airspeed, altitude, and obvious size before the first shot), and shot it again. Why is anyone's guess. EW could be a factor.

The Commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps Amir-Ali Hajizadeh stated publicly that they were at Alert Level III and ordered the air space to be closed to all civilian traffic and that it was ignored. The number keeps changing but there were 6-9 departures out of Tehran prior to PS752, all but one of which flew the same departure route and they were not engaged. The IRGC were informed of PS752's delayed departure by airport authorities. The Commander states that the AA operator didn't confirm the target or ask for permission to fire because "his communication system was apparently disrupted – whether because of jamming systems or the high traffic. For that reason, he fails to contact [his commanders]".

I commend the IRGC and Iranian government for coming clean on it being shot down, but I don't think we're being told the whole story. You'll note in his debrief he never mentions the second missile. I stress again the fault of the airline and the civilian airspace controllers for putting this aircraft in this position. It could have happened to any of the flights that departed before, and stunningly AFTER PS752 was shot down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3e9g1oWNUA

whitev70r

01-15-2020, 02:40 PM

The newb recruit working his 1st shift at the SAM control probably wanted to make sure that the "F18" was neutralized. Or he played too many video games and got trigger happy.

Not seeing the big deal whether it was one missile or a 2nd missile whatever 10 or 30 seconds apart. Doesn't really change much about the narrative. For all we know, the guy was shitting his pants after the first and he accidentally pressed the green button a 2nd time instead of powering down.

What I'm not buying is that Iran wanted that plane downed because there is some super agent on board. I would believe that other wacky theory about both Iran and US wanting the general dead over that theory of Iran taking out someone on the plane and having 175 other casualty. it's still a tragic accident whether it was 1 or 2 missiles.

twitchyzero

01-15-2020, 05:00 PM

if it wasn't hit by a 2nd missile was there any chance it could've returned to the airport, saving some lives?

or it could miss and hit the terminal killing even more...

fT-z33wor

01-16-2020, 11:21 AM

Not always, myriad of factors. In this case the airliner was close to the battery which is designed for short range intercepts. They should have been able to visually ID the target as the TOR M1 has an optical tracking IR camera. The first missile struck the target and another was fired a full ten seconds after the threat was neutralized. A second missile CAN fire automatically if the onboard computers determine the threat remains based on telemetry or it can be engaged again manually; but they also have the ability to kill the launches. They shot the airliner, would have been able to visually see it as an airliner and not a missile (not to mention its known track, climb, airspeed, altitude, and obvious size before the first shot), and shot it again. Why is anyone's guess. EW could be a factor.

The Commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps Amir-Ali Hajizadeh stated publicly that they were at Alert Level III and ordered the air space to be closed to all civilian traffic and that it was ignored. The number keeps changing but there were 6-9 departures out of Tehran prior to PS752, all but one of which flew the same departure route and they were not engaged. The IRGC were informed of PS752's delayed departure by airport authorities. The Commander states that the AA operator didn't confirm the target or ask for permission to fire because "his communication system was apparently disrupted – whether because of jamming systems or the high traffic. For that reason, he fails to contact [his commanders]".

I commend the IRGC and Iranian government for coming clean on it being shot down, but I don't think we're being told the whole story. You'll note in his debrief he never mentions the second missile. I stress again the fault of the airline and the civilian airspace controllers for putting this aircraft in this position. It could have happened to any of the flights that departed before, and stunningly AFTER PS752 was shot down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3e9g1oWNUA

I just looked this up on open source and the system houses the SA-N-9 which is supersonic at terminal velocity so yeah definitely short range. I don't know what their dated system is like but I've had the opportunity to use IR tracking on a learjet before and you can easily identify it apart from a fighter jet based on its silhouette and heat signature let alone a commercial airliner. The operator "should" have been able to ID the target, but I can imagine someone dropping the ball when you factor in environmental stressors at the time. Although you'd think the order to fire still has to be given to the operator from their CoC or officer in charge with them, you're not allowed to just pop shit off when you want...its what SOP's are for.

But yeah I know there's built in redundancys to kill launches based on the type of system this is, operator error?

I'll watch the debrief in a bit man.

nah

01-16-2020, 11:41 PM

I read that the Iranians said the SAM operator had a 10 sec window to decide whether it was a civilian aircraft or an American warplane and decided to take the shot.

That said, I don't know how you can't determine that the target wasn't a jet with the speed that it was flying at...

fT-z33wor

01-17-2020, 12:01 PM

Not seeing the big deal whether it was one missile or a 2nd missile whatever 10 or 30 seconds apart. Doesn't really change much about the narrative. For all we know, the guy was shitting his pants after the first and he accidentally pressed the green button a 2nd time instead of powering down.

But it does change the narrative because it helps deductively figure out whether it was intentional or unintentional if you are familiar with how the system works. With the optical tracking IR feature you can visually confirm whether its a hit or miss on the target, and like JD¹³ said there are built in redundancy's to avoid a negligent discharge in these systems. I mentioned earlier this is a command guidance based system which means the missile requires continuous targeting data to be fed to it until it reaches it's target, otherwise it will not know where to go. I'm interested to see what this investigation will uncover in due time.

whitev70r

01-17-2020, 01:35 PM

Bro ... it was unintentionally intentional. By that I mean, they wanted to shoot it down (intentionally) because they thought it was a US fighter but they obviously made a friggin huge (unintentional) mistake. Isn't that enough?

So 2 missiles = they wanted to intentionally shoot down a passenger plane to take out 1 guy ... no, not buying that theory. Sorry. I know there is evil in the world but not stupidity to that degree. If, in the end, there is evidence to corroborate this proposterous theory, then those who are responsible should get a 'pass go and go straight to hell' card.