[geeknerd]

So I got audited for empty home tax for 2018. Mom is owner and I the permitted occupant.

I have a shredder at home and I usually shred any documents once I see them. This obviously became a problem.

They want 6 months of utility history, telus only provides like 4month end of 2018(online) so is it illegal if I photoshop 2 more months? Yes i could probably ask telus but it would take time and I only have 2 weeks left to finish this audit.

Homeowners insurance - is under my mom(owner)name. Same with hydro.

They want MSP invoices but my work paid for mine so I dont have any. If I forged some it would still be true no?

They want my notice of assessment which was sent to a different address(my previous home) at the time but I actually lived here and my t4s and when I actually file the taxes used this address. That's the fault of CRA for not updating my address according to address I filed my taxes with.

I have already changed hydro and insurance to my name and my bank account to avoid this problem in the future but if you think about it, the audit is a fucking joke because the reasons why I dont have these documents could be used in a way for people to pretend they live at a home. In my case, it would be easier to 'prove' my mom lives at the house instead of me which is not the case. What a waste of my time and tax payers money. Not to be racist/stereotypical but the asians who own all these empty homes are way to smart and the system way too easy to manipulate.

I could walk into an icbc right now and ask them to change my address to x. They have no procedure to authentic and they just change it. Yet, ICBC info is one of the primary documents needed for this audit. Thankfully its one of the real info's I have but what a joke.

I wrote in the feedback section that my tracked amazon orders and skipthedishes order would be more authentic proof then any of the other documents they require.

[Manic!]

Just call telus.

[geeknerd]

Just call telus.

It's not just the telus one. They want two different types so even if I gave them telus,

They want my CRA notice of assessment which I don't have but can easily photoshop from a different one. Mind you it did exist at one point so is it fraud?
or
They also want my MSP invoice which I can also easily make and would be true to the 'facts'. etc etc

The lady on the helpline said yes these cases happen often especially like UBC Students who their parents pay everything for. but if you cant provide the paperwork you may get dinked with the tax. WTF?_?

[Infiniti]

So I got audited for empty home tax for 2018. Mom is owner and I the permitted occupant.

I have a shredder at home and I usually shred any documents once I see them. This obviously became a problem.

They want 6 months of utility history, telus only provides like 4month end of 2018(online) so is it illegal if I photoshop 2 more months? Yes i could probably ask telus but it would take time and I only have 2 weeks left to finish this audit.

Homeowners insurance - is under my mom(owner)name. Same with hydro.

They want MSP invoices but my work paid for mine so I dont have any. If I forged some it would still be true no?

They want my notice of assessment which was sent to a different address(my previous home) at the time but I actually lived here and my t4s and when I actually file the taxes used this address. That's the fault of CRA for not updating my address according to address I filed my taxes with.

I have already changed hydro and insurance to my name and my bank account to avoid this problem in the future but if you think about it, the audit is a fucking joke because the reasons why I dont have these documents could be used in a way for people to pretend they live at a home. In my case, it would be easier to 'prove' my mom lives at the house instead of me which is not the case. What a waste of my time and tax payers money. Not to be racist/stereotypical but the asians who own all these empty homes are way to smart and the system way too easy to manipulate.

I could walk into an icbc right now and ask them to change my address to x. They have no procedure to authentic and they just change it. Yet, ICBC info is one of the primary documents needed for this audit. Thankfully its one of the real info's I have but what a joke.

I wrote in the feedback section that my tracked amazon orders and skipthedishes order would be more authentic proof then any of the other documents they require.

Its probably a bad idea to engage in activities that involve the verb "forge".

[CRS]

It's not just the telus one. They want two different types so even if I gave them telus,

They want my CRA notice of assessment which I don't have but can easily photoshop from a different one. Mind you it did exist at one point so is it fraud?
or
They also want my MSP invoice which I can also easily make and would be true to the 'facts'. etc etc

The lady on the helpline said yes these cases happen often especially like UBC Students who their parents pay everything for. but if you cant provide the paperwork you may get dinked with the tax. WTF?_?

Your CRA NOA is available on online if you've signed up for MyAccount:

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/e-services-individuals/account-individuals.html

If you haven't, you can sign up today and have your account fully set up in a week. They have to mail you a security code for you to gain full access.

To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely fraud to forge documents that are not the originals.

[RiceIntegraRS]

Your gonna have to jump thru theses hoops and ladders to prove that you lived there. Its just the way it is so id get on that phone and request all the documents that you need. Yes it may take awhile for Telus to send you those invoices but your gonna have to wait regardless cause setting up your CRA account will take awhile. like CRS said 1 week at best.

You have 2 weeks to finish your audit then what happens? you get pegged interest? Its my understanding and me also recently dealing with CRA last month is that if you provide everything that they need, everything including interest will be reversed. Goodluck

[ssjGoku69]

The person on the other end of the empty homes tax audit is just an employee too; They're likely working on other cases simultaneously. With that in mind, the best route would be to just ask for an extension to the deadline and request the documents from the original source. I don't see why reason why the city employee would deny an extension.


As to CRA not updating the address on your filed tax return, you can update the address online via CRA myAccount or by mailing Form RC325 (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/forms/rc325.html).


To hammer the point to you again. Do not forge those missing documents.

[geeknerd]

Your CRA NOA is available on online if you've signed up for MyAccount:

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/e-services/e-services-individuals/account-individuals.html

If you haven't, you can sign up today and have your account fully set up in a week. They have to mail you a security code for you to gain full access.

To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely fraud to forge documents that are not the originals.

I did sign up but my NOA is issued to an address that I lived prior even though the taxes filed for that NOA was filed under my current address.

[geeknerd]

The person on the other end of the empty homes tax audit is just an employee too; They're likely working on other cases simultaneously. With that in mind, the best route would be to just ask for an extension to the deadline and request the documents from the original source. I don't see why reason why the city employee would deny an extension.


As to CRA not updating the address on your filed tax return, you can update the address online via CRA myAccount or by mailing Form RC325 (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/forms/rc325.html).


To hammer the point to you again. Do not forge those missing documents.

yeah I've already updated my address with them when I called to create an account for this but it doesnt change the addresses on the prior stuffs they sent me and the audit is for 2018 :\

The auditor didnt feel like what I sent during the first round was enough so in the 2nd round they allow you to type a explanation so I basically explained this whole situation and hoping for the best but I'm preparing for the worst case scenario.

[geeknerd]

Your gonna have to jump thru theses hoops and ladders to prove that you lived there. Its just the way it is so id get on that phone and request all the documents that you need. Yes it may take awhile for Telus to send you those invoices but your gonna have to wait regardless cause setting up your CRA account will take awhile. like CRS said 1 week at best.

You have 2 weeks to finish your audit then what happens? you get pegged interest? Its my understanding and me also recently dealing with CRA last month is that if you provide everything that they need, everything including interest will be reversed. Goodluck

The city of vancouver enforces this tax and in my letter it says failure to due so may result in imposition of the tax and fines upto $10 000 perday.

[bobbinka]

RS never ceases to entertain

[6793026]

errrt forging the MSP is a huge problem buddy. Once you forge documents instead of getting new ones, you open a bigger cans of worms. Go thru the steps cause fraud can be a pain in the ass on your CRA records for the next 50+ years and you certainly don't wnat that.

[kr4l]

I got audited last year. I’m the owner and my place was being rented out.

Dont worry so much about the deadlines. I was at least 6 months past the respond due date because they couldn’t reach me to ask for proof that it was being rented out. I just provided what they needed and that’s that. No penalties

[PeanutButter]

Hey man, my cousin forged his name on my school time table so he could get amazon prime student, but this is not the same thing at all.

I wouldn't forge any government documents. Remember, once you give it to them, they have it on file FOREVER. Fraud is no joke, you can go to jail.

btw. is the empty homes tax only for Vancouver, what about Richmond?

[Mikoyan]

Hey man, my cousin forged his name on my school time table so he could get amazon prime student, but this is not the same thing at all.

I wouldn't forge any government documents. Remember, once you give it to them, they have it on file FOREVER. Fraud is no joke, you can go to jail.

btw. is the empty homes tax only for Vancouver, what about Richmond?

There's a provincial speculation & vacancy tax.

[B!tch]

Provide the four months worth of documentation before the two week deadline with a letter stating the other two months will sent once you receive them from Telus.

No fraud and within deadline.

Am I misunderstanding empty home tax? If your mom is owner, she is getting audited. As tenant you are providing proof it wasnt empty. Wouldn't your mom paying your home insurance be proof you live there? If you weren't living there she wouldn't be paying it?

Bit late for this scenario but since you like to shred, you may want to invest in a scanner to keep copies of legal documents. Much cheaper than criminal conviction for fraud.

[geeknerd]

But is it really fraud though? Like if I have an MSP invoice infront of me and decided to recreate perfectly from scratch and print it out and file that in, is it fraud even though all the information is same and true?

yeah yeah...ill just take the long way of endless phone calls and being put on hold.

[B!tch]

If you think it is not fraud, why ask the brilliant, perfect, never wrong, holy than thou members of a car forum.:smug: (except for PB, someone is going to report him to his professor)

[ssjGoku69]

It's just that the upsides (you skip the waiting) don't outweigh the potential downsides (forgery of documents and tax penalties on your parents).

[bcrdukes]

Thread and member of the year.

[Euro7r]

They are auditing and asking you for pieces of supporting documentation to prove its not empty (you have nothing to hide). These guys are doing their jobs, just like anyone of us with end goal to make a living and put food on the table. Yes, some of the documentation they ask could be/is stupid and irrelevant; however, the individual is following a policy they probably don't have control over with, so I am unsure why you are saying they are wasting your time/money. For all we know the person auditing you could be a 1st year junior just starting out their careers trying to make a living.

If you think it doesn't matter and just phohoshop and forge, by all means go for it, no one is stopping you; however, if they decide to dig deeper and find you are lying, this won't be the first or the last time you will see audits.

[geeknerd]

They are auditing and asking you for pieces of supporting documentation to prove its not empty (you have nothing to hide). These guys are doing their jobs, just like anyone of us with end goal to make a living and put food on the table. Yes, some of the documentation they ask could be/is stupid and irrelevant; however, the individual is following a policy they probably don't have control over with, so I am unsure why you are saying they are wasting your time/money. For all we know the person auditing you could be a 1st year junior just starting out their careers trying to make a living.

If you think it doesn't matter and just phohoshop and forge, by all means go for it, no one is stopping you; however, if they decide to dig deeper and find you are lying, this won't be the first or the last time you will see audits.

When I started the thread I didn't really have the intentions to create these documents but it just got me thinking about the whole process. If you think about it, when we submit documents, they are commonly photocopies of the original. If I lose the original and do not have it anymore; if I submit a photocopy, is it fraud? In my mind, its not much different if I recreate a document that I truly know once existed and is true to its contents.

I'm saying its a waste of time because the combination of documents they are asking for can so easily be manipulated and there is no real authenticity to the audit.

You have to provide a bcid/driver license + any 3 of these documents.
Notice of assessment
ICBC Vehicle insurance
MSP invoice
Utility bills
Correspondence from a government

None of these documents prove that the home is empty except for utility bills and thats if you dig deeper into usage details.

[RiceIntegraRS]

If you truly believe your not commiting fraud. Do it. Sounds like you mind is made up. Let us know how it goes though.

[parm104]

yes. yes it is.

[DaJo]

When I started the thread I didn't really have the intentions to create these documents but it just got me thinking about the whole process. If you think about it, when we submit documents, they are commonly photocopies of the original. If I lose the original and do not have it anymore; if I submit a photocopy, is it fraud? In my mind, its not much different if I recreate a document that I truly know once existed and is true to its contents.

I'm saying its a waste of time because the combination of documents they are asking for can so easily be manipulated and there is no real authenticity to the audit.

You have to provide a bcid/driver license + any 3 of these documents.
Notice of assessment
ICBC Vehicle insurance
MSP invoice
Utility bills
Correspondence from a government

None of these documents prove that the home is empty except for utility bills and thats if you dig deeper into usage details.

This is how a criminal mind works... One convincing oneself what they're doing isn't fraud even though in their mind they very well know it is... (Otherwise, why would you even ask?)

I highly suggest you to go the legit route to avoid future problems with the system. Just my 2 cents.

[quasi]

There has been some good replies in here explaining how you can deal with the situation without committing fraud and opening yourself up to more problems down the road.

Submit what you have and explain the rest is coming or ask for an extension.

That or commit fraud and hope you don't get caught, to each their own.

[Badhobz]

go commit fraud and then tell us about it plz.

[bcrdukes]

go commit fraud and then tell us about it plz.

Hypothetical question, but how would OP tell us about it if he's in jail? Or do we wait until he is released from jail to tell us about it? :suspicious:

[Badhobz]

^all the best and yet to be caught criminals discuss their crimes online. Im sure this will work out.

[StylinRed]

Is it fraud if I forge.... should've just stopped right there dude

[bcrdukes]

Did OP go to jail?

[bobbinka]

Did OP go to jail?

Then he'd still have to pay the vacancy tax :lol

[bcrdukes]

lol lose lose situation

[MG1]

Did OP go to jail?

Did he jailed?

[underscore]

Hypothetical question, but how would OP tell us about it if he's in jail? Or do we wait until he is released from jail to tell us about it? :suspicious:

You get one phone call don't you?

[bobbinka]

Maybe he can call Badhobz' lawyer. Somebody has to call him... the guy has been waiting for a phone call for months.

[fsy82]

Ask for an extension. Don't ever forge documents

[geeknerd]

hey guys i just posted bail, my lawyer told me to stop posting on this thread.

[ilovebacon]

Its probably a bad idea to engage in activities that involve the verb "forge".

:lol

[ilovebacon]

To be honest, it might not be a bad idea. If all information on the previous document is true, then it shouldn't be a problem.

The word forge is "make". Make another copy?
It's like faxing a document. Will you consider that forge?

I scan contracts all the time and if I see the signature and everything else is unedited. It's good enough for me.

[stewie]

To be honest, it might not be a bad idea. If all information on the previous document is true, then it shouldn't be a problem.

The word forge is "make". Make another copy?
It's like faxing a document. Will you consider that forge?

I scan contracts all the time and if I see the signature and everything else is unedited. It's good enough for me.

Electronic Transactions Act (http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/01010_01#section8)

Requirement to provide and retain originals
8 (1)A requirement under law that a person provide an original record is satisfied by the provision of the record in electronic form if

(a)there exists a reliable assurance as to the integrity of the record in electronic form, and

(b)the record in electronic form is accessible by the person to whom it is provided and is capable of being retained by that person in a manner usable for subsequent reference.

(2)A requirement under law that a person retain an original record is satisfied by the retention of the record in electronic form if there exists a reliable assurance as to the integrity of the record.

(3)For the purposes of subsections (1) and (2),

(a)the criterion for assessing integrity is whether the record has remained complete and unaltered, apart from the introduction of changes that arise in the normal course of communication, storage and display, and

(b)the standard of reliability required must be assessed in view of the purpose for which the record was created and other relevant circumstances.


Scanning is good so long as it's the original and the scanned document hasn't been created on your own as a duplicate. Unless I'm reading it wrong.


Copying and pasting a company logo on a document you're making should be a red flag to just stop.

[ilovebacon]

Electronic Transactions Act (http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/01010_01#section8)

Copying and pasting a company logo on a document you're making should be a red flag to just stop.

This is definitely wrong if you are copying and pasting a company's logo.

If op just recreates everything from the original document without tempering any information. It may work.

[CRS]

This is definitely wrong if you are copying and pasting a company's logo.

If op just recreates everything from the original document without tempering any information. It may work.

How are you "recreating everything from the original document" without copying and pasting a the company's logo?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

if they suspect fraud, then pull the real records, wouldnt it show the exact same thing?

LOL.

fraud
/frôd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

I don't think he's committing wrongful or criminal deception.

like he cant commit fraud. they have to prove that the thing he reproduced was not accurate to the information on the actual original document.

and when they get the original document, it's going to say the exact same thing he submitted.

they can't ever get him for fraud.

that being said, they might try to ding u for fraud, and you'll have to go through the process and waste a lot of time and money.

u should probably ask for an extension first as that has least risk.

but to be honest, the risk is probably so low it doesnt matter. lol.

[stewie]

if they suspect fraud, then pull the real records, wouldnt it show the exact same thing?

LOL.

fraud
/frôd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

I don't think he's committing wrongful or criminal deception.

like he cant commit fraud. they have to prove that the thing he reproduced was not accurate to the information on the actual original document.

and when they get the original document, it's going to say the exact same thing he submitted.

they can't ever get him for fraud.

that being said, they might try to ding u for fraud, and you'll have to go through the process and waste a lot of time and money.

u should probably ask for an extension first as that has least risk.

but to be honest, the risk is probably so low it doesnt matter. lol.

Isn't this for the empty home owners tax? Even though he did live there but can't prove it would be a huge financial gain on his end just to not have to pay the tax. Asking if forging a Telus and MSP invoice would be a dead give away to stop what you're doing.


May be a low risk you're willing to accept but I'm sure he's got a lot more on the line lol

Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46) (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-366.html)

Forgery

366 (1) Every one commits forgery who makes a false document, knowing it to be false, with intent

(a) that it should in any way be used or acted on as genuine, to the prejudice of any one whether within Canada or not; or

(b) that a person should be induced, by the belief that it is genuine, to do or to refrain from doing anything, whether within Canada or not




Would the last statement be true if this is good faith and if he openly tells them that this it's not the original which he no longer has, but this is the best that can be given?



Exception

(5) No person commits forgery by reason only that the person, in good faith, makes a false document at the request of a police force, the Canadian Forces or a department or agency of the federal government or of a provincial government.