[sonick]

I don't have kids nor am planning to, but a friend shared this with me and I thought it was ridiculously stupid on so many levels.

First the vsb reasoning for cancelling them, second the parents concerned that their smart kids would be teased by the regular kids if they had to attend regular classes with the dummies.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-vancouver-school-board-phases-out-honours-programs-in-high-schools/?fbclid=IwAR16fS1ONSbCMMxb-8Z_gQKxwhq0EOr_HSGgRTVmD7oHywPn53excXiDuMk

What is this new world the next gen will be raised in?

Edit: use this link if paywalled https://archive.is/PV7yl

[Euro7r]

It seems like people get BUTT-HURT over very small thing nowadays. Back the in days in highschool, those that got good grades or took advanced learning courses, we just called them geeks or nerds. We could care less what those honour roll students did, we just moved on and did our own daily thing.

[320icar]

That’s fucking stupid. I aced lots of stuff but my dumb ass only squeezed by with ~50% for chem and math. The students who worked way harder than me and excel much better don’t deserve to have to sit and watch me fuckin struggle with stoic

[sonick]

For perspective, I reached out to a Diversity & Inclusion contact I have and they had the following points, which educated me a bit more on the situation and gave more context to VSB's logic:

that's actually much more inclusive to do it individualized than to group kids by honours or not. These categorizations are mainly arbitrary and institutionalized by meritocracy when there's a lot that proves that meritocracy is a myth and reinforces systemic racism.

To say your kid is gifted and put them in all gifted classes across the board vs looking at a person as a whole and recognize we excel in some areas and not is healthy. School measures only a very specific type of intellect, not what psychologists have shown there are many different types of intellect out there.

Teachers prefer to do it [individualized] but [historically] they're mandated to teach by the 'book'

However, that is nice in theory, not sure in reality if its realistic to put it into practice.

[pastarocket]

Honestly, I think that Western societies in general are seeing more millennials becoming narcissistic as a result of two factors: school system and bad parenting.


If kids do not like what life throws at them, they can throw temper tantrums.

Get emotional or withdraw from a situation that they feel that makes them look bad and feel bad. Feeling Butt Hurt. LUL

Some students have a false sense of their self worth.

A sense of entitlement to anything that they want for some young people.

Of course, not all students are like that. I know of some young people in their teens and twenties who take responsibility for making mistakes, and "owning up" to what they did wrong.

If some students can't handle the fact that some of their peers are very good at advanced mathematics, then they should talk to their parents about how to deal with their emotions in a better way.

-Great article to read:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/13/when-safe-spaces-for-the-coddled-young-move-from-c/

In his recent article, “Confusing Cure and Disease” (Quillette, June 7, 2021), Steve Salerno contends that Ms. OsakaÂ’s abrupt withdrawal from the French Open is symptomatic of a disease sweeping across the Western world. That illness, according to Mr. Salerno, is narcissism, and it has a clear cause: Our terrible schools and their terrible teaching.

“Rhapsodizing over a non-toxic social environment harkens back to what helped get us into this mess in the first place,” says Mr. Salerno. “The [self-esteem] movement took root in American schools premised on the notion that students who struggled in school did so because they felt bad about themselves.” But “re-imagining every aspect of the classroom experience around the imperative of building self-esteem” did not end well, he argues.

“Filling kids with boatloads of self-love” did, however, accomplish something. Terrible teaching and terrible schools have “produced hordes of young adults whose frustrated sense of entitlement [has] left them feeling miserable and anxious.” Their fixation on self-actualization rather than personal responsibility has left them with a sense of “disillusion.”

“Put simply,” says Mr. Salerno, our society’s, “children who have been insulated from consequences expect to continue to be isolated from consequences as they grow up. Having been brought up to believe that [their feelings about themselves] alone rule the day, they may shut down or strike out when they discover that they do not.

[quasi]

That's kind of messed up, let the kids who are good at those subjects challenge themselves. I know my son is taking at least one grade 11 class next year in grade 10, he's by no means a gifted student he just does the work.

Not related other than being in Vancouver but I see they mentioned Eric Hamber in the article, one thing some of the younger kids who haven't started high school yet will have to look forward to is the new high school. I think they've broke ground already probably at least 2 years away, that said it's pretty amazing, auditorium, lots of specialized Drama, Arts, Woodwork, Metal work class rooms and two gyms. It's one of the larger high schools I've seen in 10 years.

St Georges is also getting a new high school, but that's above my pay grade and class status haha.

[bcrdukes]

I read this the other day and have mixed feelings about it as I went to a high school with an enriched program and IB (you guys can easily figure which schools offer IB in Vancouver.)

There was always a train of thought that kids who were in IB often came from the West Side of Vancouver and were often from well-to-do families. Some teachers went as far as to accuse them of coming over to our school to "rob the local kids of their scholarships" while others really enjoyed and welcomed the kids.

Of course, our school was situated in a complicated socio-economic bubble which often impacted how kids would do in school (it was often a mixed bag so it's not an excuse) but yeah, the "regular" kids often poked fun of the smarter kids and vice versa. Such is life.

Reflecting back on how everyone thought we'd turn out, I think we all did okay. The smarter kids - not so much. A few of them went to jail for drugs and were charged for sexual harassment. lol

[ntan]

my 2c, but I'm really disappointed by this change, and it is definitely making me reconsider private school for my future kids (assuming private schools are not impacted).

I personally did a bunch of honours classes in HS, and it prepared me for University. It also exposed me to a different group of students, who made me realize that I'm not as smart as I thought I was (going from consistently top of the class to being the middle of the pack is a very important life lesson as well!). I wasn't bullied for being in honours programs, but that's anecdotal.

[JDMDreams]

Honestly I don't mind. I was never in honour role and I turned out ok in public school. We're having this family debate regarding my cousin's kids going to private school. I see it as if your kid is smart and you parent them well or doesn't matter what school they go to. Private Vs public.

[68style]

For perspective, I reached out to a Diversity & Inclusion contact I have and they had the following points, which educated me a bit more on the situation and gave more context to VSB's logic:



However, that is nice in theory, not sure in reality if its realistic to put it into practice.

I don’t get this perspective? Systemic racism?

Honours/Incentive classes were full of Asian kids in every school I ever went to lol

[Euro7r]

Honestly I don't mind. I was never in honour role and I turned out ok in public school. We're having this family debate regarding my cousin's kids going to private school. I see it as if your kid is smart and you parent them well or doesn't matter what school they go to. Private Vs public.


Some kids have zero discipline even when parents put in a lot of effort to parent them, private school it (assuming you can afford $). But I hate the mindset where people that think private kids are more superior than public kids. Everyone going to graduate with that same degree etc. and fighting for that same job. It's like not since you are a 95% A+ student, we are going to hand you this job like candy vs. someone that is 75% B student.

[hud 91gt]

Honestly what are you going to learn in high school? Sure these advanced classes may prep you for first year secondary education, but if your smart your not going to have an issue in the first place.

I was a B student at best. Never worked hard to “excel.” I found this out during my first year of post secondary education taking a double course load. It was difficult to learn study habits. But you know what, I survived. I’m successful, but has nothing to do with my education.

Mean while my wife is the opposite. She was in these so called “mini schools.” Was top student in all her post secondary degrees. She’s also successful. This isn’t because of her “mini school” or post secondary education. It’s due to her work ethic and drive.

I say throw them all to the wolves. Even the field, in the end it will probably
reduce anxiety in those “family created pressure” scenario’s as well.

[68style]

I would say of the kids who I was friends with who went to incentive or mini-school or honours or whatever you want to call it... they all did financially better than the ones in our group who didn't.

That said, I don't know that going into these separate groups is what triggered it... I think they're just smarter and it's as simple as that... school didn't change it.

[hud 91gt]

I would say of the kids who I was friends with who went to incentive or mini-school or honours or whatever you want to call it... they all did financially better than the ones in our group who didn't.

That said, I don't know that going into that separate group is what triggered that... I think they're just smarter and that's that... school didn't change it.

Was it the school, or was it the kids?

[68style]

In my schools at least (Richmond) it was the same school, they just went to different classes sometimes and were with the rest of us other times.

Hard to say if it helped them or not… I think they got some university prep and assistance applying to post secondary that the rest of us didn’t.

I should also say I’m old, this was in the 90’s.

[Spoon]

For perspective, I reached out to a Diversity & Inclusion contact I have and they had the following points, which educated me a bit more on the situation and gave more context to VSB's logic:

Teachers prefer to do it [individualized] but [historically] they're mandated to teach by the 'book'

Good luck finding the few teachers who'll do that.

In practice, the onus just gets further shifted to the parents in order for the city to cut costs. Find out what your kids are gifted in and spend your time/money to help them expand in those areas. I'm not one to encourage burying kids in tutoring centers, but what options are left at this point?

[hud 91gt]

I think the most benefit to private schools is the networking. These benefits in a honour system are probably similar but to a much lesser extent. Networking opportunities are higher in private school due to the general financial advantage these students have in the first place. These students likely grew up in a wealthier household, learning tactics from wealthy parents. This will not be nearly as high in a public school. All my personal opinion of course. Haha.

[68style]

^ I still remember my well off buddy, who didn’t come from a rich family, he was telling me at his daughters private school that another kid did a class project on diamonds and showed up with a few million dollars in loose diamonds as part of her presentation lol…

His wife teaches at a private school too and her Christmas gifts are off the chain :fullofwin:

[sonick]

I don’t get this perspective? Systemic racism

As I understand it, the VSB's point of doing this is because it's part of their Equity and Inclusion initiative, which they feel having separate Honors classes is not inclusive because it's based on the myth of meritocracy.

Meritocracy is a myth because in this case the kids who have higher merit to their work, often have more privilege with access to education, money for private private tutors etc.

Also the fact that they only measure merit and intellect in a very narrow form (Math, Science, English), even tho intellect is much wider than those topics.

Not saying I 100% agree with this perspective, but to my undersatnding this is the reasoning behind why VSB believes Honors classes are not inclusive.

[sonick]

Good luck finding the few teachers who'll do that.

That was my thought too. Teachers get paid shit for how important they are, and the classes are over capacity, how are they expected to do this?

The person I was talking to said that through her research, teachers often truly care about these students and want to do so in their hearts, but they just want to make a sustainable living doing what they do care about.

Again, thats the reasoning but I am skeptical how realistic that is.

[bcrdukes]

What will the Tiger Moms do now?

[bcedhk]

I think the most benefit to private schools is the networking. These benefits in a honour system are probably similar but to a much lesser extent. Networking opportunities are higher in private school due to the general financial advantage these students have in the first place. These students likely grew up in a wealthier household, learning tactics from wealthy parents. This will not be nearly as high in a public school. All my personal opinion of course. Haha.

Strongly agree. The honours program provided opportunities for those with similar EQ/IQ. And honestly, a handful of the students in honours are often social awkward, so it is easier to be accepted and bond with other classmates.

I feel like blending honours-capable students with low achievers will create more bullying in class.

[bcedhk]

What will the Tiger Moms do now?

those with money will probably send them to private school. Or, take them to MORE after school programs to challenge their math and science skills.

[underscore]

I was in a few honours classes and I know a few people who were in even more, and they were the biggest pile of BS ever. It was pitched to us as being equivalent to a first year university course so we'd be able to get credit for that and go straight to a second year course. Not only did I never hear of anyone getting that accepted, but after actually going to university if you jumped straight from highschool into a second year university class you'd be fucked unless you're the most hardcore student ever. So far as I can tell all it was good for was the few kids that were really passionate about a subject, and lowering everyone else's GPA. It sure wasn't an accurate measure of intelligence because there were a lot of kids in those classes that were decently book smart, but had zero common sense and were as dumb as a bag of rocks otherwise.

In the end I bailed out of 1 honours class entirely, used the other to be done a subject half a year early, and stayed in the other because it was interesting and easy. If I was in highschool again I never would've bothered with any of them.

/rant

If kids do not like what life throws at them, they can throw temper tantrums.

Have you not seen the shit fits boomers throw when they experience the tiniest inconvenience?

[JDMDreams]

Lol come to think of it, what about the remedials? Are they getting rid of that, I remember we had remedial for the dumber? Angry kids that they had to keep separate from the regular kids.

[GLOW]

didn't honurs = basic scholarship based on # of years of honour roll?

where does the $ go and how do you get it?

[MG1]

Bottom line......... the cream rises to the top.

There's always french immersion. My daughter wanted to enrol into Late French Immersion. She thanked me for lining up all night in freezing cold weather to get her in. She said, "Finally, I'm in a class where every student wants to learn and not fool around in class." IQ top 5%, she was always frustrated.

BTW, smart is not the same as gifted. Then, there's multiple intelligences studies/theories.

The love of learning - lifelong learning.

I took in a seminar given by a specialist in pedagogy. She was speaking to educators and parents about why gifted programmes are essential. We have special classes for people with disabilities. So much money and effort into those programmes. What about the other end of the spectrum? These gifted students are the ones who are going to save lives by inventing technologies, etc. Why are we letting them slip away by not supporting and understanding their needs? It was a powerful presentation. This was years ago. Gifted musicians, scientists, innovators, even athletes (actually, they get all the attention, but still gifted under multiple intelligences theories). So many gifted students hide their abilities so as not to stick out and draw unwanted attention. Anyway................... if the children are not supported by educators who really know what they're doing, it's a waste. Sadly, too many incompetent educators out there. I mean we have teachers who can't spell their way out of a hat. Or inspire kids let alone themselves. Nuff said.

[68style]

Meanwhile in the USA, if you can throw a ball hard or shoot hoops, they can't throw enough opportunity and help and money at you.

[rb]

This... Like the Bitcoin thread goes over my head. I barely passed Math 10.

[AzNightmare]

bunch of gen snowflakes

[PeanutButter]

For perspective, I reached out to a Diversity & Inclusion contact I have and they had the following points, which educated me a bit more on the situation and gave more context to VSB's logic:



However, that is nice in theory, not sure in reality if its realistic to put it into practice.

I don't know if that person actually teaches in a classroom, but I know many teaches and they tell me they teach to the average. They say it's difficult for the "gifted" students because they get bored.

You can't just give the gifted student a more difficult problem because you still have to show them how to solve it, you don't have time to spend time teaching those who aren't average.

Which is why they need to be challenged with a gifted program.

[PeanutButter]

Some kids have zero discipline even when parents put in a lot of effort to parent them, private school it (assuming you can afford $). But I hate the mindset where people that think private kids are more superior than public kids. Everyone going to graduate with that same degree etc. and fighting for that same job. It's like not since you are a 95% A+ student, we are going to hand you this job like candy vs. someone that is 75% B student.

I feel like there are a lot of assumptions in your comment.

How do we know, "parents put in a lot of effort"? and how do we know what type of effort they're putting in?

To simply assert some kids have zero discipline even when the parents put in a lot of work doesn't address if the discipline is the the right discipline or not.

I went to public school and a lot of my friends have made their way into teaching. The ones who are in the private schools always say the same thing. The support from the administration is always superior than public school. They also have more involvement with community and the parents. This is the common theme.

[Euro7r]

I feel like there are a lot of assumptions in your comment.

How do we know, "parents put in a lot of effort"? and how do we know what type of effort they're putting in?

To simply assert some kids have zero discipline even when the parents put in a lot of work doesn't address if the discipline is the the right discipline or not.

I went to public school and a lot of my friends have made their way into teaching. The ones who are in the private schools always say the same thing. The support from the administration is always superior than public school. They also have more involvement with community and the parents. This is the common theme.

I didn't generalize ALL, but only said some kids. And the some based on those I know personally as friends that have had kids in private that have finished/or is in private now. Knowing them personally and speaking from their parenting experience. There are some that are just rowdy no matter what discipline you put them through LOL.

I feel the support comment you mention is superior only so because the parents are donating more $$$$$ back to the school. The teachers have to live up to the expectations as the parents are giving them the big bucks. It's like work, if I had a job that paid me the big bucks, I better work my ass above and beyond to live up to the expectations I am paid for vs. a regular low paying job where I just do my job and jet home on the dot.

[MG1]

I think pay for private school teachers are below that of public school teachers. Teachers at private schools negotiate differently from public. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

[MG1]

They say it's difficult for the "gifted" students because they get bored.

Which is why they need to be challenged with a gifted program.

Depending on the configuration and size of the school, a “gifted” or “enrichment” class is possible. Prep driver. Works very well in a middle school model.

[Manic!]

I think pay for private school teachers are below that of public school teachers. Teachers at private schools negotiate differently from public. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

I think that would depend on the school.

[Zedbra]

People admire and vote for woke virtue-signaling politicians, then wonder why society is going full retard woke and virtue signaling. Let the smart ones figure out the rest - honour classes or not, they will succeed.

[Blueboy222]

4Head

[Manic!]

People admire and vote for woke virtue-signaling politicians, then wonder why society is going full retard woke and virtue signaling. Let the smart ones figure out the rest - honour classes or not, they will succeed.

On the other end, you got politicians banning things like yoga and anything to do with sex.

[68style]

Extremes and extremists are everyone's enemy

[Klondike]

The Vancouver board and others in the province have changed the curriculum significantly since it was introduced in 2015, including getting rid of letter grades

Wait hol' up. These kids don't have letter grades anymore?

I'm pretty sure they're cutting these programs to save money. They've been cost-cutting left right and center since the 2008 recession. They forced everyone in our grade to take pre-calculus because not enough people signed up for regular math.


What will the Tiger Moms do now?

Send their kids to private school or those fly by night 'academies' in Richmond. KEKW

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

SOOOO... DO THEY STILL HAVE A CLASS FOR THE SLOW/BAD KIDS?!

[SkunkWorks]

SOOOO... DO THEY STILL HAVE A CLASS FOR THE SLOW/BAD KIDS?!

Yeah it's called John Oliver

[CRS]

Yeah it's called John Oliver

That's a weird way to spell Charles Tupper.

[Zedbra]

On the other end, you got politicians banning things like yoga and anything to do with sex.

Same end. Go back to your cognitive dissonance where you revel in bias bliss.

[bcrdukes]

Following up to this, there is an opinion somewhat related to this thread in regards to opportunity and it touches on level/quality of education and hiring top talent. A good read, but keep in mind, this is an op-ed opinion piece.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-the-problem-with-saying-we-only-hire-the-best/

(Note: I subscribe to The Globe & Mail so if you can't access the material, log in through your public library using your library card or PM me and I can share the article should you require it.)

[highfive]

Saw some guy tweet about it today that this decision wasn't even based on any data.

Fucking VSB, they're just slowly trying to make public school less attractive so parents would put their kids in private.

[GLOW]

Saw some guy tweet about it today that this decision wasn't even based on any data.

Fucking VSB, they're just slowly trying to make public school less attractive so parents would put their kids in private.

creative way for them to manage budgets Kappa

[PeanutButter]

I think pay for private school teachers are below that of public school teachers. Teachers at private schools negotiate differently from public. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

I don't know about the local "ivy league" private schools like St. George's or Crofton House.

But, I know that all Christian Private schools get paid about $5-7k less for the same experience.

In public school, starting is $51k at year 0 and $83k at year 10, 10 is the highest, after year 10 you are at maximum pay and you only get a raise if there is a new CBA.

In Christian private schools the starting is around $45k depending on the city. I'm not sure what the max is though.

[PeanutButter]

I didn't generalize ALL, but only said some kids. And the some based on those I know personally as friends that have had kids in private that have finished/or is in private now. Knowing them personally and speaking from their parenting experience. There are some that are just rowdy no matter what discipline you put them through LOL.

I feel the support comment you mention is superior only so because the parents are donating more $$$$$ back to the school. The teachers have to live up to the expectations as the parents are giving them the big bucks. It's like work, if I had a job that paid me the big bucks, I better work my ass above and beyond to live up to the expectations I am paid for vs. a regular low paying job where I just do my job and jet home on the dot.

I'm not sure the teachers in private school are better than public school teachers or that they even care more. I'm sure there are crappy teachers in both.

I think you're right that the support is greater because the parents are paying to have their kids in school so they feel more inclined to help out where they can. It seems like in private school on average, the community is better, might just be the type of people in that community.

[68style]

I don't know that I'd want to be a teacher in a private school... parents in public school are bad enough, imagine the blame the teacher gets from parents of privileged kids when the kids fuck up and the parents are using the threat of their future payments against the administration, etc.

[Hondaracer]

Both the teachers I know want to get out of it. One taught in a public high school in Surrey, the other one a public middle school in west Van, his school apperenely was in the wealthiest catchment in Canada.

They both have the same complaint, idiot parents dump their problem children off at school and let the teacher and school deal with them. The one who teaches in west Van has been teaching in west Van for 10+ years and he said it’s basically on an exponential curve with these “problem kids”

[Mikoyan]

I'm not sure the teachers in private school are better than public school teachers or that they even care more. I'm sure there are crappy teachers in both.

I think you're right that the support is greater because the parents are paying to have their kids in school so they feel more inclined to help out where they can. It seems like in private school on average, the community is better, might just be the type of people in that community.

For some of the private schools, you are REQUIRED to volunteer X number of hours or contribute extra $$ if you don't. It's spelled out in the applications.

[Hondaracer]

Lol that shit is such a joke.

My wife went to Norte Dame where she said her parents were doing non-stop fundraising for all this different shit. They only got a new outdoor field THIS YEAR she graduated in 2003 and they were fund raising for a field then.

Whereas I went to a brand new high school (Fraser Heights) that was soooo much nicer than these private schools that have all the fundraising etc lol

I always poke fun at her that her parents had to break their back to fundraise for these Catholic schools only to go to fucking dumps and see nothing for your efforts (from the Catholic Church of all organizations, who’d of thunk) lol

[quasi]

For some of the private schools, you are REQUIRED to volunteer X number of hours or contribute extra $$ if you don't. It's spelled out in the applications.

Lol, my sons football in Public School had an option for volunteer hours or pay more but I was like fuck that tell me what I owe? I might be wrong but probably not a lot of parents volunteering at the Private Schools.

[Scotsman]

It's not just that private school teachers make less money per annum but the public school teachers are part of the BCTF.

Therefore they also get to enjoy their golden pension in retirement and have sweet ass dental, vision, and medical coverages we all dream about before they retire.

I’m not sure when it changed but back in the day, the private school teachers were not required to have a teaching degree. They only needed a teaching certificate (non-University). Existing teachers were grandfathered so academically speaking, private school teachers on a whole were less qualified compared to their public counterparts until all the grandfathered teachers retire.

Kind of ironic that you expect more at a private school (best of the best) but yet you have the teachers there that earn less today and tomorrow. I guess it’s for the love of teaching?

Like any profession there’s good ones and bad ones regardless of pay but over the span of a career, the monetary difference is HUGE

[68style]

I always poke fun at her that her parents had to break their back to fundraise for these Catholic schools only to go to fucking dumps and see nothing for your efforts (from the Catholic Church of all organizations, who’d of thunk) lol

But… at least she knocks it out of the park on cosplay date night ?

[highfive]

Lol that shit is such a joke.

My wife went to Norte Dame where she said her parents were doing non-stop fundraising for all this different shit. They only got a new outdoor field THIS YEAR she graduated in 2003 and they were fund raising for a field then.

Whereas I went to a brand new high school (Fraser Heights) that was soooo much nicer than these private schools that have all the fundraising etc lol

I always poke fun at her that her parents had to break their back to fundraise for these Catholic schools only to go to fucking dumps and see nothing for your efforts (from the Catholic Church of all organizations, who’d of thunk) lol

Well it depends how much they can fundraise each time? school avg around 10-40k?

Field like that cost what? 1.5 mil? at least right? Does take some time I guess?

[Hondaracer]

Whereas my new public school had all those built with public money, no fund raising required. Brand new everything? Lol

Also, the school did not have a field for 20 years..in that time they were using public parks as outdoor rec spaces, which frankly feels like some sort of violation in itself lol

[ntan]

On the topic of private schools... any insights/opinion on St. Georges/York House etc.? I came from a pretty average working class family and really benefited from the honours programs in hs (East Van school, really helped prep me for University + more critical thinking). I'm now at that age where I want to start planning for my future kids, and with the loss of such program, I want to find a school where my kids have access to these programs if they're fit for it (the public school by me, Prince of Wales will not have any honours program, and it seems like they'll be losing their mini school as well)