[Euro7r]

My house needs furnace replaced (it literally can die any day 43+ years).

If I just replace the furnace, what is the cost nowadays for a 2000sq ft home? $7-8K?

I heard about all the rebates with getting a heat pump system, how exactly does this work? I read that you need to get someone to do an evaluation in your home first, submit the paper work in order to get approval before doing the heat pump work? (This is to also get the rebate money?).

Does anyone have recommendation on whom I can contact for this type of work as well?

Thanks!

[Great68]

You're going to be looking at $15k on the low end to $25k on the upper end.

It all depends on size of unit, whether you need electrical upgrades, and difficulty of running refrig lines & wiring through the house.

Just for reference, my 3-ton central unit cost me $15K installed last year, replacing my old oil furnace. And that was "good buddy" pricing, basically cost + 10%, done by my buddy who's the commercial Project Manager for one of the larger refrig companies here on the island.
That also excluded any electrical work (Which I did myself, and already had 200A service in my house)

As for rebates, there are three major rebates available:
1. Clean BC Heat Pump Rebate - Up to $6k. This one is essentially through BC Hydro, and is simple to get. All you have to do is install you heat pump, submit your application, and submit receipts/proofs. (Just make sure the heat pump you install is an elligible model)

2. Canada Greener Homes Grant - Up to $5k for upgrades + $600 for the energy evaluations.
This is the federal grant, is a bit more convoluted in the process. This is the one where you must sign up, then do a pre-upgrade energy evaluation before install (Cost about $600), and a post-upgrade evaluation after install (Cost about $200).

3. Canada Oil to Heat Pump Affordability Grant - Up to $5k. This one is brand new for this year (I just missed it). Obviously only applies if you're upgrading from oil furnace.

There also may be top ups/rebates available through your municipality/district. I got an additional $350 from Saanich and $350 from the CRD.

One thing I will say though, don't count on getting the rebate money back quickly. It was about 4 months before I got the Clean BC rebate cheque, and 7 months before I got the Federal greener homes cheque.

[SSM_DC5]

What type of wire and breaker did you add? And is the wire and breaker good for pretty much any unit that be used in a residential setting? I'm thinking about prewiring before I drywall the areas around my electrical panel.

[Great68]

That really depends on size & make/model of your unit.

My 3-ton used a 30A/240V 10-2 supply to the outdoor unit, and 14-3 power/control from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.

A 4 or 5 ton might use a 40A/240V 8-2 to the outdoor unit. And some models might need the neutral, so then you'd need a 3 conductor.

You won't know what your exact requirements are until you select your unit.

[whitev70r]

I was thinking a lot about this and for the 2-3 weeks that you need ac, it's a lot of $$$. I can easily buy 2-3 12,000 btu portable ac's to cover each floor at what, $700 each? I can see the convenience of it being central, don't have to worry about storing the ac's in the fall to spring but man, $15K ... how long will it take me to recoup that cash outlay? And the paperwork for rebates, the process, and my strata requirements (they want documentation that it is legit and won't ruin common property, etc.)

I'm having 2nd thoughts on heat pump/ac. I know it's only May but I suspect no one has had to turn on the ac on your heat pump yet. There was one week when temps went a bit high but by evening, still manageable with a fan. If I lived in Kamloops or Kelowna or Abbotsford, yah ... for sure cuz it gets so much hotter there but here in the Mainland ... hmmmm.

[unit]

its getting hotter every year so just think abt that investment 5-10 years from now.

also just off the top of my head, theres a lot of other advantages of central ac.
-noise
-reaches every room
-no bulky portable unit using up space in your room

[Great68]

I was thinking a lot about this and for the 2-3 weeks that you need ac, it's a lot of $$$. I can easily buy 2-3 12,000 btu portable ac's to cover each floor at what, $700 each? I can see the convenience of it being central, don't have to worry about storing the ac's in the fall to spring but man, $15K ... how long will it take me to recoup that cash outlay? And the paperwork for rebates, the process, and my strata requirements (they want documentation that it is legit and won't ruin common property, etc.)

I'm having 2nd thoughts on heat pump/ac. I know it's only May but I suspect no one has had to turn on the ac on your heat pump yet. There was one week when temps went a bit high but by evening, still manageable with a fan. If I lived in Kamloops or Kelowna or Abbotsford, yah ... for sure cuz it gets so much hotter there but here in the Mainland ... hmmmm.

Uh, heat pumps also supply HEAT, which is where the majority of cost of use savings come into effect. The cooling function is a bonus.

I mean sure, you absolutely can get a boatload of portable AC's for cooling. But they're noisy, less efficient, and a pain in the ass to set up and have around.

And yeah, my heat pump has gone into cooling mode several times since it warmed up in april. It's in cooling right now.

[whitev70r]

Uh, heat pumps also supply HEAT, which is where the majority of cost of use savings come into effect. The cooling function is a bonus.


Fair enough, I read that some suggest a hybrid where you keep your gas furnace, others suggest removing it altogether and go fully heat pump. Others have commented that if it goes below like -8C, then it is not very efficient. Just hearing some stories from people who borderline regretted it.

[Euro7r]

My uncle went with a furnace + AC setup. Ended up paying $15K excluding rebates. I'm debating if heat pump is really needed cuz my home is north facing, it's generally quite "cool" in terms of temperature. Furnace I need to replace no matter what, just whether I wanna do heat pump/ac as well since I'm at it.

[Great68]

Fair enough, I read that some suggest a hybrid where you keep your gas furnace, others suggest removing it altogether and go fully heat pump. Others have commented that if it goes below like -8C, then it is not very efficient. Just hearing some stories from people who borderline regretted it.

With the push to de-carbonize, I forsee additional taxes etc on energy sources like Natural Gas, and it's just going to get more and more expensive to operate in the future.

The comments about the low temperature efficiencies of heat pumps is outdated and no longer true. Cold Climate heat pumps exist now. I have one.
It maintains a COP of 2.17 @ -15°C (217% efficient), and provide 100% rated BTU/h heating down @ -25°C. Kept my house toasty warm all last winter. And my house has next to zero exterior wall insulation.

IMO There is no good reason to keep the natural gas furnace as a hybrid system in our region anymore, and doing so limits available rebate funds.

FYI I work in HVAC, I'm an ASHRAE member (was even on the BOG of my local chapter), so I know a little bit about this stuff :)

[whitev70r]

you win, I'm convinced.

[SSM_DC5]

That really depends on size & make/model of your unit.

My 3-ton used a 30A/240V 10-2 supply to the outdoor unit, and 14-3 power/control from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.

A 4 or 5 ton might use a 40A/240V 8-2 to the outdoor unit. And some models might need the neutral, so then you'd need a 3 conductor.

You won't know what your exact requirements are until you select your unit.

Seems like I could run 8-2 from the panel to outside and I'll be covered for whatever I end up with by changing the breaker to appropriate amps. Then for the electrical wires from outdoor unit to indoor unit would just run on the exterior walls with the refrigerant lines.

[Euro7r]

Thought I give an update to this thread since the last time I posted.

I ended up getting a heat pump installed & furnace (replaced as mines was already ancient due to the age of the house). I got 3 separate quotes from different companies (a smaller independent company with good reviews & family used them, Costco, and Reliance). We ended up going with Reliance because the heat pump setup didn't require me to spend extra to upgrade my electrical panel. Costco required me to upgrade my electrical panel, with the added pitch if I wanted to charge a EV car, or run multiple stoves/washer-dryer appliances, my electrical panel can handle it. I didn't want to spend upgrading my electrical panel unless I absolutely needed it. We don't run heavy appliances all at once nor own an EV, so it seemed like it didn't make sense currently in our situation.

Overall with all the rebates, I am only forking out $7K. Still wanting for the damn money from the rebates lol.

So far the impression with Heat pump, the unit outside is quiet, but the air that comes through the vents of the house is hella loud. Sometimes at night, it'll wake me up when it kicks in when the temperature drops below the set threshold on my thermostat.

Also it seems to take forever to heat up, like it'll take 1 hour to heat up 1 degrees. Not sure if this is supposed to be normal?

[whitev70r]

Thanks for the info and real life experience. Going through that 1st stage with some quotes, good to know that some will need you to upgrade electrical panel. Are rebates going to stop or change in 2024?

Just as a point of reference, if you don't mind, how many sq ft is your house to heat (not trying to size you up in terms of blingness :lol). I'm thinking of replacing furnace as well cuz somebody said you get more rebates. Disclosure - I'm looking at 3 level TH about 1800 sq ft to heat.

If around $7K ... I can swing it just for the ac in the summer.

[Euro7r]

Thanks for the info and real life experience. Going through that 1st stage with some quotes, good to know that some will need you to upgrade electrical panel. Are rebates going to stop or change in 2024?

Just as a point of reference, if you don't mind, how many sq ft is your house to heat (not trying to size you up in terms of blingness :lol). I'm thinking of replacing furnace as well cuz somebody said you get more rebates. Disclosure - I'm looking at 3 level TH about 1800 sq ft to heat.

If around $7K ... I can swing it just for the ac in the summer.

My house is 2000 sq ft. 2 bed 1 bath upstairs, 2 bed 1 bath downstairs. Initially I only wanted to do a furnace $7-8K budget, but when I sat down with the sales guy from Reliance, and ran the numbers with the rebates by doing also doing the Heat Pump, I'm paying an extra few hundred bucks more for Heat Pump. It was a no brainer to do both considering I'm already paying that much just for furnace alone already.

Not sure if the rebates end this year, I keep people say it is? Not sure if it's true or not.

To be honest the sales guy was a dumbass, I actually ended paying $1K less overall than what he initially quoted me. Every time I spoke with him, he could never remember what he quoted me, so I played dumb when he wrote a lower number on the invoice for me to pay LOL. He'll be like, was it this number or that number I quoted you. He wrote down the quotes on paper, but never kept a copy of it. So literally drawing out numbers out his ass each time.

[whitev70r]

^ what is said dumbass' name from Reliance, I'll ask for him :lol.

DM me so as to not embarass him.

[mk1freak]

.

To be honest the sales guy was a dumbass, I actually ended paying $1K less overall than what he initially quoted me. Every time I spoke with him, he could never remember what he quoted me, so I played dumb when he wrote a lower number on the invoice for me to pay LOL. He'll be like, was it this number or that number I quoted you. He wrote down the quotes on paper, but never kept a copy of it. So literally drawing out numbers out his ass each time.

I need a furnace replaced at house and received quotes from 5 diff companies. EACH one had separate issues that needed to be addressed......
like one company (bigger one) wanted to drill out the side of the room and exhaust out (instead of through the roof stack wtf). another big company wanted us to put sealed doors to the furnace room (in garage) but pretty sure current doors (louvred closet door things) are grandfather as house was built like that (80s) they've said they will find us a contractor but here we are almost 2 weeks later and no word. another company wanted us to upgrade the water tank with the furnace so i told them f off.

Who's this guy from Reliance? send me a dm sounds like he might be reliable :pokerface:

[bcrdukes]

I had mixed experience with Reliance, but this is out in the GTA, not Vancouver. I would never let them near my place ever again.

[Euro7r]

I need a furnace replaced at house and received quotes from 5 diff companies. EACH one had separate issues that needed to be addressed......
like one company (bigger one) wanted to drill out the side of the room and exhaust out (instead of through the roof stack wtf). another big company wanted us to put sealed doors to the furnace room (in garage) but pretty sure current doors (louvred closet door things) are grandfather as house was built like that (80s) they've said they will find us a contractor but here we are almost 2 weeks later and no word. another company wanted us to upgrade the water tank with the furnace so i told them f off.

Who's this guy from Reliance? send me a dm sounds like he might be reliable :pokerface:

It's so annoying where each company advises different things to do be done. In one of my quotations I asked a smaller independent company for quotation, and they were the cheapest, but I didn't use them. Reason is if they go down under, then I'm kinda screwed for warranty (it was a 2 man company but great reviews). They were using brands that I never heard of as well for their products, so I figured that's why it was cheaper.

Sent you a PM on the reliance sales guy I used. No cost and no harm to get another quotation.

[Great68]

Thought I give an update to this thread since the last time I posted.

I ended up getting a heat pump installed & furnace (replaced as mines was already ancient due to the age of the house). I got 3 separate quotes from different companies (a smaller independent company with good reviews & family used them, Costco, and Reliance). We ended up going with Reliance because the heat pump setup didn't require me to spend extra to upgrade my electrical panel. Costco required me to upgrade my electrical panel, with the added pitch if I wanted to charge a EV car, or run multiple stoves/washer-dryer appliances, my electrical panel can handle it. I didn't want to spend upgrading my electrical panel unless I absolutely needed it. We don't run heavy appliances all at once nor own an EV, so it seemed like it didn't make sense currently in our situation.

Overall with all the rebates, I am only forking out $7K. Still wanting for the damn money from the rebates lol.

So far the impression with Heat pump, the unit outside is quiet, but the air that comes through the vents of the house is hella loud. Sometimes at night, it'll wake me up when it kicks in when the temperature drops below the set threshold on my thermostat.

Also it seems to take forever to heat up, like it'll take 1 hour to heat up 1 degrees. Not sure if this is supposed to be normal?

So you got a heat pump with gas backup?
If so, then your heat pump is purposefully undersized for the full heat load of your house. This is why you didn't need an electrical upgrade with Reliance.
You'll still be covered for probably like 80% use case for the weather we experience, but yes this is also one of the reasons it's taking longer to heat up while it's on the heat pump.

Your thermostat should have settings to adjust the timing/differential points between stages which you can adjust to bring the gas heat on quicker. They're usually set up to try and use Staqe 2 as late and as little as possible.

[whitev70r]

Hey Great68, quick question, you're in the industry and know your stuff. Some insights on brand of heat pumps, please.

Mitsubishi, Daiken - I heard are the top ones. No issues. One company said that Daiken is good for split system but not the best for central duct, would you agree?

Gree - Chinese, parts are hard to get if needs repair but internationally, they make lots of units, cheapest in terms of cost, maybe louder?

American Standard and Trane - any thoughts on these, these sounds like good old NA made brands ?

[Great68]

Disclaimer: I don't sell or install any heat pumps themselves, I just have to work with and control their operation in the commercial/institutional sector.

I would agree that Mits & Daikin are kind of the cream of the crop right now. I run a Mits in my house, it's been fantastic so far.
See a lot of Samsung installations happening as well. The asian style units are really up there (the side blowing condener style) in popularity.

I don't know anything about American Standard, never seen them in my line of work.

Trane: Meh, not the biggest fan both commercially and residentially. My uncle has a 5 ton XR unit (the vertical style) It's fucking noisy. It has broken down and needed service a few times now in 15 years.

I feel like the North American stuff is just a generation behind the ball to the Asian stuff.

[bcrdukes]

Regarding Trane, I do not know of any positive feedback from both residential and commercial owner/operators. It's always negative.

A colleague of mine got a Trane, despite being warned it would be a pain in the ass to work with and it being noisy as hell. Ripped it out for a Daikin in 6 months.

[TypeRNammer]

Currently have a heat pump system in my 940sqft laneway house, one unit is usually left running all day while the ones in the bedrooms are usually off.

According to my BC Hydro account, it shows daily kilowatt usage of 70. Does that sound about right?

EDIT: that excludes charging my tesla

[whitev70r]

Any comments or feedback from those who changed over to heat pump this year? When temps hit this low, this is what people are somewhat concerned about in terms of efficiency or effectiveness of a heat pump.

[TypeRNammer]

Any comments or feedback from those who changed over to heat pump this year? When temps hit this low, this is what people are somewhat concerned about in terms of efficiency or effectiveness of a heat pump.

GREE unit here

3 of my bedrooms work perfectly fine so far

Downstairs living room it's blowing warm air, I'm assuming it's over worked since it stays on all the time

[Euro7r]

Any comments or feedback from those who changed over to heat pump this year? When temps hit this low, this is what people are somewhat concerned about in terms of efficiency or effectiveness of a heat pump.


I've switched to gas furnace setting the last few days since it's been hella cold below freezing. Normally I feel the heat pump needs to run often to keep the house warm, as it's definitely not "toasty" hot compared to gas furnace. Although I do have my thermostat set to 20-21 average. Not sure what everyone has their settings set for?


In terms of $, I got my recent electricity bill & gas bill. Electricity Oct-Dec (2 months billing), $250. Gas bill roughly $40 a month. This is for a detached 2000 sq ft. house. I'm not sure if there's really any $ savings because I was comparing purely gas from my parents houses, it almost works out the same in total $. Just that I'm paying more in electricity and not gas. If any savings, think it would be minimal, but I don't have comparable yet with my own place since only had heat pump since Oct. The step 2 does make a dent on the $ with electricity as I can't see how anyone can keep it within step 1 with a heat pump.

[whitev70r]

^ ah ... you did the hybrid system with heat pump and furnace for lower temps. I thought about that option but most companies are pushing for a full delete of gas furnace.

Yah, we need more longer term data to see if it really is cost saving ... but apparently, it is saving the world, less fossil fuel, more electric energy.

[bcrdukes]

I'm cheap so I leave my thermostat on 19.5. In a year, I will do what all Asian parents do - don't turn it on. :troll:

[SSM_DC5]

:fullofwin: mine is at 19.5 too

[bcrdukes]

Actually, the truth is that I have an Ecobee thermostat so it has some kind of built-in temperature setting option that helps save on energy consumption and costs. I did notice a significant savings from last year's bills when I did not turn the feature on. Having said that, it seems to hover in and around 19.5 degrees most of the time.

In comparison to last year's bills, I'm seeing over $30 per month of savings. Forget about the summer. It's just hot AF in Toronto. :fuckthatshit:

[Great68]

My unit has had no problem keeping my house at nice and toasty 21 degrees through this entire cold snap. No resistive or backup gas heat. Cold Climate unit FTW.


It's my 5kW electric heater in my uninusulated and open rafter detached garage set to just keep it at 10C that's destroying my electric bill lol.

[whitev70r]

Great68 what brand heat pump, cold climate unit did you go with? Mitsubishi?

[Great68]

That's right, Mitsubishi Hyper Heat 3-ton.

This is my exact indoor & outdoor unit set:

https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_PVA-A36AA7_PUZ-HA36NKA_202401.pdf

[Eff-1]

BUMP

FortisBC rebates are way higher right now than what Hydro is offering. We are considering taking advantage and swapping to a hybrid system as part of our reno.

It's a 2200 sq ft house still running on the original 40-yr old furnace.

As part of the project, we will upgrade our electrical to 200amp (and redo our wiring at the same time because it's aluminum and we are lacking a sufficient number of outlets).

Also we are thinking instant hot water to replace the current tank (which is serving our needs fine FWIW).

Anyone want to update their experience or throw in their two cents?

[bcrdukes]

By instant hot water tank, do you mean a tankless water heater? Or a traditional hot water tank?

[whitev70r]

Is there a particular reason you don't want to go all in and just use electrical heat pump vs. hybrid? If it is a 40 yr old furnace, eventually, it may have to be replaced. Here in YVR, a heat pump should be fine. In colder places, I see why someone might go hybrid.

[roastpuff]

By instant hot water tank, do you mean a tankless water heater? Or a traditional hot water tank?

Assuming he means tankless water heater.

I run a Navien combi tankless, that handles both space heating and domestic hot water. Been very happy with it, very efficient for heating as well as hot water.

[Eff-1]

Is there a particular reason you don't want to go all in and just use electrical heat pump vs. hybrid? If it is a 40 yr old furnace, eventually, it may have to be replaced. Here in YVR, a heat pump should be fine. In colder places, I see why someone might go hybrid.

Rebates. Fortis right is offering a $10k rebate with very few questions asked.

[Eff-1]

By instant hot water tank, do you mean a tankless water heater? Or a traditional hot water tank?

Yep sorry, I meant a tankless water heater.

[TypeRNammer]

I've switched to gas furnace setting the last few days since it's been hella cold below freezing. Normally I feel the heat pump needs to run often to keep the house warm, as it's definitely not "toasty" hot compared to gas furnace. Although I do have my thermostat set to 20-21 average. Not sure what everyone has their settings set for?


In terms of $, I got my recent electricity bill & gas bill. Electricity Oct-Dec (2 months billing), $250. Gas bill roughly $40 a month. This is for a detached 2000 sq ft. house. I'm not sure if there's really any $ savings because I was comparing purely gas from my parents houses, it almost works out the same in total $. Just that I'm paying more in electricity and not gas. If any savings, think it would be minimal, but I don't have comparable yet with my own place since only had heat pump since Oct. The step 2 does make a dent on the $ with electricity as I can't see how anyone can keep it within step 1 with a heat pump.

My last month's bill was $200 for the single month since I'm on time of usage billing, this month I'm current trending to $280 :fuuuuu:

I do try to push everything into off peak hours such as car charging, dish washer, washer and dryer.

It's the heat pump and the cooking that's driving up the costs.

But over all we are managing better compared to last year where we were on the regular bimonthly billing where at the absolute peak it was $675 bucks

[bcrdukes]

I use a Rinnai tankless system. The place we bought had a rental traditional hot water tank which we got rid of. I also had to replace my furnace but it's a forced air / high velocity system (no way around this unless $$$$$$$$$$.) So far, I'm happy with the Rinnai tankless system. It has its quirks like needing a few minutes to heat up the water when cold, but otherwise, in the winter, it is more or less instant since we need heat and it gets pretty cold here.

[roastpuff]

I use a Rinnai tankless system. The place we bought had a rental traditional hot water tank which we got rid of. I also had to replace my furnace but it's a forced air / high velocity system (no way around this unless $$$$$$$$$$.) So far, I'm happy with the Rinnai tankless system. It has its quirks like needing a few minutes to heat up the water when cold, but otherwise, in the winter, it is more or less instant since we need heat and it gets pretty cold here.

So I have forced air, and how we consolidated space/equipment is to use a combi tankless boiler that handles both DHW and SH - basically there's two circuits for hot water. One goes to the taps, and the other goes to a radiator/heat exchanger thing that basically goes where a furnace would but is 1/3rd the size. Fan blows over the radiator/heat exchanger = hot air out of the vents. My gas bill is quite low overall, and so is my electric. Around $50-70 dollars per month for Fortis.

[Eff-1]

So I have forced air, and how we consolidated space/equipment is to use a combi tankless boiler that handles both DHW and SH - basically there's two circuits for hot water. One goes to the taps, and the other goes to a radiator/heat exchanger thing that basically goes where a furnace would but is 1/3rd the size. Fan blows over the radiator/heat exchanger = hot air out of the vents. My gas bill is quite low overall, and so is my electric. Around $50-70 dollars per month for Fortis.

What about cooling in the summer? Do you have a system for that?

[roastpuff]

What about cooling in the summer? Do you have a system for that?

Our air handler is set up to have a cooling radiator in the system.... but our strata is blocking the install due to "electrical concerns" and "envelope penetration concerns" so...

Basically we can slot in an AC unit and run refrigerant into a similar radiator to get cool air in the summer. If my strata would allow it.

:rukidding:

EDIT: So basically, heat pump is more efficient overall and can do dual duty for space heating. However, depending on your location/home/electrical/other factors there are alternatives available. This solution of mine is due to the cramped space of our mechanical area plus our townhouse strata being built on old electrical infrastructure which cannot support an additional circuit for a heat pump. I basically killed 2 birds (SH and DHW) with 1 stone (NG combi tankless boiler/hydronic air handle that takes up the same space as a traditional furnace) thus freeing up a bit of space in the mechanical area and is 97 or 99% efficient rated (whatever that means).

[Eff-1]

Got it. I did not realize you were in a strata and yes, that's a large factor!

[SSM_DC5]

Was reading up on the 10k rebate from Fortis. You can get it for changing your 40 yr old furnace? Changes to your water heater is something completely different? I'm also not seeing anything about requiring permits to do the work, just that it needs to be done by a contractor on their list. The hybrid system, how much is average price for the system itself. Watched a few old YouTube videos, I'm assuming the prices mentioned were USD, but they said they cost $10k.

[Eff-1]

I'm expecting to pay in the range of $7k - $10k AFTER the rebate.