[dark0821]

https://i.imgur.com/VWuh0x6.png

I am sure everyone is aware, but as a noob, I don't know shit, so I want people with way more insight and knowlege to discuss hahaha

But also remember we will smirk and smack talk when we see a RSX with a ralliart banner and a GTR badge... lawl... maybe they are just from the future~~

Pretty sure a money losing halo car will be the last on their agenda... but imagine the 3 performance teams working together lololol one can dream~

[trollface]

Japanese Govt won't let Nissan fail. Prob made one of the big two bail them out.

Civic GTR confirmed.

[Traum]

Japanese Govt won't let Nissan fail. Prob made one of the big two bail them out.

According to different news media, the Japanese gov almost certainly had a hand in bringing Nihon together. Foxconn had been trying to get into the EV space for a few years without much success, and Nissan's imminent failure represented an excellent opportunity for them to gain a decent foothold into the space at pennies on the dollar. But the automotive sector remains one of Japan's biggest economic strengths in the world economy, and the Nippon gov didn't really want their 3rd biggest auto manufacturer getting scooped up by foreign ownership (again?), so the rumour mill was strong that the gov applied some degree of encouragement / "encouragement" to get Honda to save Nissan.

Apparently, except for Honda and Nissan, all other (Japanese) auto manufacturers already has some degree of collaboration with or partial ownership by Toyota. So I guess that made Honda the only or the most viable option to take on Nissan?

Reportedly, the merger will bring some benefits to Honda as Nissan has a somewhat stronger European presence than they do. Personally, I am a little skeptical of that because Nissan doesn't seem all that strong in Europe either, and their European factory is also in the UK (just like Honda).

[EvoFire]

It's a merger that's destined to fizzle out, but being Japanese, there's probably some tax credits or money involved. I'm pretty sure Nissan was encouraged to take on Mitsubishi as well.

It is true that Toyota has a hand in quite a few manufacturers already, and really no one else has the resources to do it either.

Toyota owns part of:
Fuji Industries(Subaru)
Daihatsu
Isuzu

They have a partnership with Mazda for the next gen RWD architecture.

Nissan had been a slow motion trainwreck for the last decade though.
They do have a bit more presence in Europe with the Qashqai and whatever their version of the Kicks is called. They also still sell the Juke there as well.

[trollface]

Nissan was still selling Datsuns in 2022.

[TypeRNammer]

https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/OD7BU4ROKVKHTP74BFM5NPWGCM.jpg?auth=fe110d1a53ce9d 402bb9e39b6f88a17644925c51b58cea500a68031c56a682b3&width=1200&quality=80

Nissan should re hire this man :troll:

[supafamous]

I would imagine the entire ICE Nissan lineup becomes rebadged Hondas (or are built off Honda platforms) by 2030 or so - other than the body on frame platform there's nothing in the Nissan portfolio worth keeping and Honda is simply not getting into the big truck space with an uncompetitive product.

That's a lot of Nissan engineers that aren't needed anymore and presumably a tonne of cost savings although I don't know what happens to the "amazing" lease deals and bad credit loans for Sentras and Altimas.

[AstulzerRZD]

https://i.imgur.com/VWuh0x6.png

I am sure everyone is aware, but as a noob, I don't know shit, so I want people with way more insight and knowlege to discuss

Pretty sure a money losing halo car will be the last on their agenda... but imagine the 3 performance teams working together lololol one can dream~

Honda failed in Europe.
Nissan is fine.

Nissan failed everywhere else.
Honda’s so strong in North America … they sell more GM EVs than GM.

Honda needs hybrids that work at cost for large SUV/Odyssey.
Expect an ePower Pilot/Odyssey.

Honda needs large EVs.
Nissan Ariya is competitive with some cost cutting.

It’s not a total win for either but there is some potential.
there will be hella job losses and manufacturing capacity will still still get cut.

Real question is whether they can integrate their software (N/A), powertrain (JPN) and app teams (EU) instead of keeping them in silos

[Traum]

Nissan should re hire this man :troll:
I read/watched a few interviews with Ghosn, and it is almost funny how obvious his grudge still is towards Nissan (and maybe also the Japanese gov). He is making himself sound neutral and logical with his analysis, but he pretty much has nothing good to say about the merger at all, and he is really critical of stuff on the Nissan side LOL~

The thought keeps coming back to me that if the media wants someone to criticize Nissan to the point where it is total trash, Ghosn is always the man they can count on LOL~

[68style]

I mean, they did try to imprison him for life without anything resembling a far trial... I can understand his hatred lol

[supafamous]

https://insideevs.com/news/745625/honda-nissan-merger-struggling-reason/

Honda's CEO Struggles To Explain Why Nissan Merger Makes Sense

Honda's CEO said it was "difficult" to pinpoint what makes Nissan a strong business partner.

Honda's CEO just had a pretty awkward press moment related to its potential merger with Nissan. When asked why Nissan would make a good business partner for the mid-sized automaker, Toshihiro Mibe struggled to find the right words before blurting out something that brought laughter to a room full of journalists.

"That's a difficult one," said Mibe.

It was an honest statement. Perhaps too honest, as it summed up the collective head-scratching around the world after the merger talks were revealed. Is there some sort of superpower alliance being formed behind the curtain that the world isn't allowed to know about? Or are these just two automakers struggling in different areas looking to combine efforts to stay competitive in a changing market?


Me too man.

[RabidRat]

Execs are highly trained to use all kinds of deflective PR language for questions they can't or won't answer.

I really doubt that was the accident they made it out to be, especially when it was such an elephant in the room lol.

[supafamous]

Execs are highly trained to use all kinds of deflective PR language for questions they can't or won't answer.

I really doubt that was the accident they made it out to be, especially when it was such an elephant in the room lol.

Honda's CEO probably needs Obama's Anger Translator so we can hear what he really is thinking which is probably:

"The Japanese govt is forcing us to acquire this corpse of a car company in order to provide the appearance of saving thousands of jobs when in fact we're going to layoff half the company since all their products suck compared to ours"

[JDMDreams]

Still waiting for 400z Gtr fire sales

[Badhobz]

When I was just a young lad, I always liked Nissan more than Honda. Constantly battled with stupid civic ex boys and their bullshit vtec cheater cars.

Who would have guessed in 2025 that they would merge. What a strange timeline we live in

[EvoFire]

https://insideevs.com/news/745625/honda-nissan-merger-struggling-reason/



Me too man.

Pretty much what a lot of ppl are saying. but you'd think he'd at least be prepped to tout the benefits of Nissan's EV knowhow and some bof and offroad capabilities.

But yeah the passenger car business, Nissan has got nothing that Honda wants.

[JDMDreams]

I really wonder what happened to Nissan? Cvt killed them? Like they were killing Acura and Lexus with 350z G35. They had the fx. I wonder why they never put more models out and continued to develop them. All the m and q platform cars were good. I remember the Altima 2.5 was so fast compared to Honda cars of the day. There's used to be Maxima's and Pathfinders everywhere.

[EvoFire]

Carlos Ghosn happened.

[dark0821]

I say that....but Ghosn was dealt a very bad hand when he took over. He did what he could.

- Nissan never hopped on the hybrid train
- they were way too behind/small (as in super super super limited R&D to try and catch up in Hybrid at that point)
- they bet on the EVs (early Leaf) to try and skip hybrid altogether
- even with "ok" Leaf sales, it turned out to be a money losing venture
- with EV sucking up most of the R&D, the rest of the line up suffered

Here we are.... 400Z on what's really a modified .......350Z chassis...

[trollface]

I've seen one 400z since they came out.

[JDMDreams]

I don't get why they never improved the leaf considering the we're am early adopter. They apparently had hybrid in other markets but we never got much of it in na

[EvoFire]

I say that....but Ghosn was dealt a very bad hand when he took over. He did what he could.

- Nissan never hopped on the hybrid train
- they were way too behind/small (as in super super super limited R&D to try and catch up in Hybrid at that point)
- they bet on the EVs (early Leaf) to try and skip hybrid altogether
- even with "ok" Leaf sales, it turned out to be a money losing venture
- with EV sucking up most of the R&D, the rest of the line up suffered

Here we are.... 400Z on what's really a modified .......350Z chassis...

I don't get why they never improved the leaf considering the we're am early adopter. They apparently had hybrid in other markets but we never got much of it in na

I don't get it either, they spent their money on the Titan, which didn't sell.

You'd think they would look at the Tundra and get it that it is extremely hard to break in. The Titan was also two different trucks, the regular gas and the Titan XD which used a cummins diesel and it got very quickly discontinued. They dumped so much money into it I doubt they made it back.

The Patrol/Armada/QX80 also always operated in the shadow of the Land Cruiser. It was Land Cruiser > Pajero > Patrol.

Those are big money segments, but that's if they sold to begin with.

The Ariya came too late and too little. They could be doing a BMW with electrified drivetrains across their lineup, but instead have two meager offerings.

Their RWD architecture was good, but they did nothing to it since it came out in the 2000's. It's been 20 years and they are still building the same car. You'd think it's a good thing because the tooling is paid off, they can keep making incremental improvements, and it'll be great as enthusiasts laments the death of driving feel. But no, they did things to make it worse. Wifi steering, turbo engine that's unreliable, a convertible that doesn't sell, a hybrid that they didn't advertise.


The hybrid bit, Acura did the same weird thing with the MDX, they made a MDX hybrid for two years, but never advertised it and quietly killed it. I don't know the engineering behind the Q50 hybrid or the MDX hybrid though, RZD might know a bit more

[JDMDreams]

Yea I never understood why they didn't spend more effort on hybrids Honda and Nissan, they had the tech, insight, Civic hybrid, Accord hybrid, nsx, rlx hybrid. I don't get why they don't just try to push it out more. Take a loss make it the same price as V6 or do what Toyota did and have hybrid only. Take it or leave it.

[supafamous]

I really wonder what happened to Nissan? Cvt killed them? Like they were killing Acura and Lexus with 350z G35. They had the fx. I wonder why they never put more models out and continued to develop them. All the m and q platform cars were good. I remember the Altima 2.5 was so fast compared to Honda cars of the day. There's used to be Maxima's and Pathfinders everywhere.

It's always money. They had very few top quality products in the last 20 years and those that were there rarely printed money - the G35 was a winner but it didn't sell in the kind of volumes or prices to fund more development. Same goes for everything they sold - even when the Altima briefly was competitive with the Accord/Camry they weren't selling it at margins that made much money (Nissan didn't have the brand equity of Honda/Toyota so they always sold for less)

In the past year their profit margin has hovered around 1% despite very little R&D spend (warmed over product after warmed over product) while Honda is around 5% and Toyota has gotten as high as 11%. Both Honda and Toyota are spending tonnes of money on R&D even as they make solid profits. Even Mazda manages 3-5% margins despite being tiny and they're investing tonnes into their RWD platform and new engines (Mazda has made a lot of hay selling their top trims heavily)

Nissan is basically the Japanese version of Stellantis (maybe worse). They may have EV know how because they started earlier but I really doubt they have anything today that Honda doesn't have. Their body on frame isn't class competitive either - I don't see Honda taking it and adding it to their lineup in anyway.

[AstulzerRZD]

Honda's a little arrogant considering their EU sales are in the shitter and so are their South East Asia sales.

On hybrids, geared systems are just terribly inefficient and expensive - F150 Powerboost, MDX Sport Hybrid, Land Cruiser/Tundra, Wrangler 4XE all blow dicks.
Honda's IMA system also had guaranteed failure.

Nissan's half dead because Japanese and French management fighting left no one to steer the ship. But with..

1) Strong sales in price sensitive markets like EU / South East Asia / South America
2) Large and powerful product mix on small end (Rogue Sport, Kicks, Versa)
3) ePower that can scale well to larger platforms unlike Toyota HSD
4) Homegrown EV tech that's better than Toyota/Honda Prologue

It's unfair to say they're doing shit; Japan just didn't want Foxconn to acquire Nissan.

[Traum]

I'd also add that when Nissan introduced the QR25 series into a lot of the vehicles in their line up, it took a long while before the engine was sufficiently reliable. Their big bet on CVTs also backfired and it turned out to be maintenance-intensive and unreliable. Both of those things hurt their reputation, and the mediocre reputation caused them their profit margin as they can't afford to price their cars at the same level that Toyota and Honda did.

And then there was their financing department. I can't say if it was a cause or an effect, but Nissan had a habit of approving financing for people with shxtty credit. These are people that probably didn't qualify for the higher priced Toyota and Honda financing plans, and I'm sure having these people go through their financing arm cost them a lot of lost revenue compared to the higher calibre customers at Toyota and Honda.

[AstulzerRZD]

They can’t command high MRSP and 9% interest the way Toyota/Honda can
But per their 10K filing, financial arm is actually keeping them afloat, very profitable.

Make lots of money from lower credit buyers because of higher interest.
Moving more units also means higher margins since factory fixed costs per unit are lower.

[68style]

I'm not super in tune with Nissan's operations and offerings these days, but I did drive by a Nissan dealership recently and noticed the Armada parked out front looked pretty hardcore... go on their site to see what's up... STARTS AT $88,000??? Tops out at $110k??????

LMAO okay yah sure. Are they mental? If they even sell ONE of those things here I would like to talk to the person who bought it if for no other reason than to smack them.

[dark0821]

Even before the handshake/greeting as you walk in, they are like $15K off Armada...

I am pretty sure Nissan.ca still advertise at $88K to make the real buyers feel good that they got a hella deal lololol

[AstulzerRZD]

Need the 15k off to roll the negative equity in from their last deal

Armada/QX is the Grand Seiko to Houston suburbs like Highland Park.
It’s for the anti establishment SUV buyers who think a Denali is too mainstream/basic

[underscore]

I'm not super in tune with Nissan's operations and offerings these days, but I did drive by a Nissan dealership recently and noticed the Armada parked out front looked pretty hardcore... go on their site to see what's up... STARTS AT $88,000??? Tops out at $110k??????

LMAO okay yah sure. Are they mental? If they even sell ONE of those things here I would like to talk to the person who bought it if for no other reason than to smack them.

That's their competitor for a Sequoia right? Those start at 84k and get to 104k + options.

Both of those seem insane to me but I guess that's the price in that segment of the market?

[AstulzerRZD]

Sequoia is a POS - the 3rd row packaging with leaf spring and hybrid battery is unacceptable.

Escalade and GLS are the bar.

Requirements:
1) tow boat and jet ski to lake Travis from Houston
2) look good in private school pickup line
3) keep up with the jones es cuz ur wife said so

[noclue]

Armada gonna be the full-size SUV category for rental car companies so the resale value will tank

[JDMDreams]

I've seen a few new Qx or whatever they call themselves now the Infiniti version of the new Armada and it looks pretty nice. Same thing with Lexus lx600 I don't see any of those, I've only seen one in Richmond and they came out a few years ago. So seeing the Infiniti version already is impressive.

[Traum]

I'm surprised to hear that their customers are able to make enough payments to keep the financing arm profitable. I would have expected enough of them to eventually become unable to do so and default, and then they'd have to go through repo and stuff and chalk that off as a loss.
They can’t command high MRSP and 9% interest the way Toyota/Honda can
But per their 10K filing, financial arm is actually keeping them afloat, very profitable.

Make lots of money from lower credit buyers because of higher interest.
Moving more units also means higher margins since factory fixed costs per unit are lower.

[Traum]

And the deal fell apart.

Apparently bcos Honda wanted Nissan to become a subsidiary under Honda, but Nissan was strongly against that LOL~

I wonder if Foxconn would come back into the picture now to purchase Nissan outright...

[supafamous]

I'm not surprised Honda made the demands they did - they're the ones taking it on the chin for trying to save a zombie.

OTOH, Nissan's board has no business saying no at this point. Who the hell else is gonna save this company? I'm surprised the government didn't tell them to STFU and just go with it.

[bcrdukes]

I am curious - Has any other Japanese manufacturer shown interest in absorbing Nissan? Toyota or Mazda, for example?

[AstulzerRZD]

RIP Nissan 2026

[roastpuff]

I am curious - Has any other Japanese manufacturer shown interest in absorbing Nissan? Toyota or Mazda, for example?

Mazda too small - it would be a chihuahua trying to bite a Great Dane.

Toyota wouldn't be interested IMO - they don't need any of the Nissan tech the way Honda did (EV platform, truck platform, etc)

[EvoFire]

I don't think Toyota is interested, and Mazda is too small.

[supafamous]

Toyota is already tied up with Mazda and Subaru so the gov't didn't ask them to take one for the team (also could create too much market concentration). Honda is tied up with no one so they were "next man up".

To be clear: No one in Japan wants Nissan

[JDMDreams]

Common 400z and gtr fire sales. 0% financing, apple is already doing it.

[Badhobz]

Pooor Nissan. Which man would want you now !!!

[AstulzerRZD]

they're playing chicken with Japan gov
they're betting Japan gov sees the potential job losses and will do almost anything

[JDMDreams]

I bet Japan is like, Nissan you stupid, they came to my house and disrespected my whole famiry

[AstulzerRZD]

imo this is just the start.
VW, Nissan, and Stellantis are structurally fucked.

VW's already going at it with their unions and soon the goc.
Stellantis is already going at it with their gov.

[EvoFire]

There's some desire to moving away from car ownership and towards a subscription based commodity. If that comes to fruition then we would have way way way too much manufacturing capacity as a subscription based service would require less actual vehicles to serve the same amount of people.

[JDMDreams]

You mean this?

https://observer.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/10/Robotaxi_74.jpg?quality=80&w=970

We got you fam

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/01/23/multimedia/23elon-salute-1-fbvg/23elon-salute-1-fbvg-mediumSquareAt3X-v2.jpg

:fuckyea:

[AstulzerRZD]

There's some desire to moving away from car ownership and towards a subscription based commodity. If that comes to fruition then we would have way way way too much manufacturing capacity as a subscription based service would require less actual vehicles to serve the same amount of people.

I think we will skip past that to Robotaxi.
Robotaxis like Waymo got way mo traction than Volvo/Sixt/Porsche subscription services.
Volvo and Open Road subscription service cancelled.

The low end market who have unpredictable needs for a car dont' have the credit/capital to pay for new stuff.
They do dumb things like long term Turo rentals instead.
or they blow a ton of money on uber/lyft

The high end market with unpredictable needs and money just swap in and out of cars like they're nothing.
See George Saliba/Steve Jobs trading for new SL every month, etc.

[Traum]

imo this is just the start.
VW, Nissan, and Stellantis are structurally fucked.

VW's already going at it with their unions and soon the goc.
Stellantis is already going at it with their gov.
I agree that VW is seriously fxxked. They can't lower their labour costs nearly enough to be competitive, or maybe even just stay in business. If you look at it that way, they can only go bankrupt.

On the other hand, the state of Lower Saxony owns over 10% of the company, and has a 20% voting right. Given how big an employer VW is in Germany, I don't see how the Lower Saxony gov as well as the Germany gov will allow VW to fail. VW is essentially Germany's version of GM. Just as the US gov has bailed GM out in 2009, I'd also expect the state and federal govs in Germany to bail VW out one way or another as well.

[AstulzerRZD]

yeah VW will get propped up, the unions will get screwed, German politics will go further right wing, and maybe in 2027 they will have competitive cars with Rivian's software.

Stellantis is seriously screwed, they invested 0 in software, their EVs don't even have a trip planner that can plan charging, and they have too many dead brands.
They will disappear by 2030.

[supafamous]

When we say VW are we saying VAG or just VW? I can't imagine Porsche will be in trouble or Lamborghini or Bentley.

[JDMDreams]

Like how will they survive? Even if the gov throws money at them. No one buys vws besides China hobs and troll face. They are asking like $95000 for a EV bus. :fulloffuck:

Like what can they do? I don't see any attractive VW product that I would spend money on. Not that cheap, not as good as BMW Benz, shit reliability compared to da Japanese

[Badhobz]

China hobz loves his hitlerbox. Ich bein ein VW

Did you know VW was the first western car manufacturer in mainland China ?! Yup. My aunt used to work in the VW plant in Shanghai when I was just a wee baby. I used to play with metal or tin or mercury laced match box cars.

Love VW. Loathe Porsche. Go figure.

[JDMDreams]

When I think of China VW, I think of this, I doubt it's a good car to own.

https://www.thatsmags.com/image/view/201809/4043106481_382b90a725_o.jpg

[Badhobz]

It’s true but hell they do last. You see those old VW clunkers everywhere around China

[Traum]

When we say VW are we saying VAG or just VW? I can't imagine Porsche will be in trouble or Lamborghini or Bentley.
I am only referring to VW, not VWAG. Most news reports only talk about VW's woes, and I don't think they are referring to VWAG either when they talk about VW's current financial troubles.

For the time being, I don't think Porsche is in any immediate danger. As an upmarket brand, they have bigger profit margins to begin with. Furthermore, they have been jacking up their prices at a pace much faster than inflation. Case in point -- back in 2018, the base Cayman was a Cdn $62.7k car. In 2024 dollars, that's $75.7k. But the current 2025 model is asking for $85.3k. In a similar vein, a 2014 Macan S started at Cdn $54.3k, which is $70.3k in 2024 dollars. Today, a 2025 Macan S starts at $86.6k.

(But gosh... I still want a Macan S lol~)

[JDMDreams]

Just heard Ford earnings and they lose $37000 on EACH EV. Yea America #1:joy:

[!LittleDragon]

Maybe if VW didn't make money losing decisions... lol

Lost money on every Phaeton and the $200MM factory they built to produce the car... The Veyron cost like $6MM per car to build and they sold them at a loss at $1.25MM... lost almost $5MM per car. I mean, I'm thankful a car like that was built but from a financial standpoint, that's a lot of money to lose.