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Old 02-01-2008, 04:12 PM   #1
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Tire Rotation Shops

Can anyone suggest me to a place where I can get my tires rotated? Preferably in Richmond, or West side Vancouver.

Do I have to get my tires/wheels balanced everytime I take them off the car?
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:47 PM   #2
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Just go to any shop (*cash deal* w00t). It's a 5 min task, it shouldn't cost that much. With the proper tools, you could even do it at home.

Unless you're talking about dismounting all the tires and flipping them.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:42 AM   #3
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swapping the fronts with the rears? pretty simple.

but if what u mean is flipping them (removing the tire, puting it on the other direction to even out the wear on the single directional tire itself), then it costs the same amount as it costs to mount/balance a tire.

when u remove the tire, and put it back on in the other direction, u need to have them rebalanced.
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:08 PM   #4
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That's something new, at least I didn't know about. I just know the instruction manual tells you to rotate the tires every X km to help balance wear, but didn't mention anything about switching direction of the tire.

In that case, do I need to do both rotation and switching direction?
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:37 AM   #5
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You shouldn't need to flip them. Usually flipping gets the most out of your tire because of the way camber wears down on your tires. If your car is pretty mild in terms of camber, just rotation should be fine.

Usually racers flip tires to get the most out of their tires, because camber settings for racing are usually more extreme than normal and it wears out the one edge or side of the tire quicker than the other.

Again, if you don't have noticeable camber wear, you won't need to flip them.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:37 AM   #6
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Plan on getting them rotated @ Volco. They are fine right?

I'm not really great w/ cars, so yea, I may ask stupid questions.

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Old 02-04-2008, 09:20 AM   #7
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Don't need to be great with cars, just need a jack and a lug wrench. Take both wheels off the left side, put rear tire on front, front tire on rear... do the same on the right side. That's all there is to it, for 98% of the cars out there.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #8
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if ur car isnt lowered then dont need to flip.
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Old 02-04-2008, 04:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by reamemiya
Plan on getting them rotated @ Volco. They are fine right?

I'm not really great w/ cars, so yea, I may ask stupid questions.
They'll do fine. It's nothing technically, seriously. It's literally like moving your chairs around at the dining table, but if you don't have the tools or knowledge for it, then you'll have to let someone make the money.

Where do you take your car for service? This is usually included in the service, pretty much free of charge.

If I were to get it done outside, I wouldn't pay more than $10 ~ $15 for it.
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Old 02-04-2008, 05:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by SG@advmotors
if ur car isnt lowered then dont need to flip.
If your car is lowered PROPERLY you shouldn't need to flip.

If you went rice and lowered it by cutting your stock springs, well...
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundy
If your car is lowered PROPERLY you shouldn't need to flip.

If you went rice and lowered it by cutting your stock springs, well...
ur talking about camber kits.

some ppl cant run camber kits with the offsets and size of rims they run...

imagine the whole suspension as a triangle. shorten one side, and u have to increase the angle of that corner to match up, hence the camber.

cutting springs is sooo... 80s, what u lose is spring rate.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by SG@advmotors
ur talking about camber kits.

some ppl cant run camber kits with the offsets and size of rims they run...

imagine the whole suspension as a triangle. shorten one side, and u have to increase the angle of that corner to match up, hence the camber.

cutting springs is sooo... 80s, what u lose is spring rate.
I know what I'm talking about. If lowering your car is fucking up your camber, and you can't adjust it properly, then you really shouldn't do it. It'll ruin your handling, it'll ruin your braking, it'll ruin your performance if your tires aren't making proper contact with the ground, and as a reward for this, ou're paying a premium for tires that you're going to wear out twice as fast.

If your wheels are too wide to fit with a camber kit, then maybe you should get narrower wheels - what's the point of having wider tires if only the inner half is contacting the street? Wouldn't it make more sense to get a tire that's 10% narrower so you can set the camber properly, and then have 100% of the tread making contact?

Lowering your car may look neat, but having your wheels angled in because of it just makes you look like a ricer retard.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:24 AM   #13
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most cars come from factory stock with camber. what car doesnt get more camber from lowering? not many cars out there have camber adjustability hence camber kits.

lowering the car lowers the center of gravity, also some ppl prefer more camber to corner better. daily drivability is a completely different story though =)

its always a factory between looks and drivability..


Quote:
Originally posted by Soundy
I know what I'm talking about. If lowering your car is fucking up your camber, and you can't adjust it properly, then you really shouldn't do it. It'll ruin your handling, it'll ruin your braking, it'll ruin your performance if your tires aren't making proper contact with the ground, and as a reward for this, ou're paying a premium for tires that you're going to wear out twice as fast.

If your wheels are too wide to fit with a camber kit, then maybe you should get narrower wheels - what's the point of having wider tires if only the inner half is contacting the street? Wouldn't it make more sense to get a tire that's 10% narrower so you can set the camber properly, and then have 100% of the tread making contact?

Lowering your car may look neat, but having your wheels angled in because of it just makes you look like a ricer retard.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by SG@advmotors
most cars come from factory stock with camber.
Yes, and they're designed with that specific camber BY FACTORY ENGINEERS who get paid a fuckuvalot of money to design them that way for a good balance of handling, performance, and efficiency. That's why, when you take your car for any alignment, there are actual published specs for what the camber should be.

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what car doesnt get more camber from lowering? not many cars out there have camber adjustability hence camber kits.
Right. And I'm saying, if you're making mods to you car that don't allow proper camber setup, you're an idiot, unless ALL you want out of it is looks.

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lowering the car lowers the center of gravity,
Fair enough. How many ricers realize that? How many of them who do, realize the actual benefit of it? And how many just want to lower their cars because it "looks sick"? I'd be willing to bet the third category is the most common.

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also some ppl prefer more camber to corner better. [daily drivability is a completely different story though =)
How do you corner better when only a narrow portion of your tire is in contact with the road?
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundy

How do you corner better when only a narrow portion of your tire is in contact with the road?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

i remember my prof telling me this back in the day why its better to have camber for corning, and why wheel chairs, especially the ones meant for sports have the wheels cambered.

majority of todays mods on the car are for looks. lowering minimizes the wheel gap space making the car look better. you'd be a fool if you didnt admit that looks play a big factor in todays cars. as if lowering a big suv with 26" rims really plays much of factor towards performance more than looks. if function was the only primary goal, then we would all be driving tubular framed ultimate race vehicles on the road...
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by !SG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

i remember my prof telling me this back in the day why its better to have camber for corning, and why wheel chairs, especially the ones meant for sports have the wheels cambered.
Very good, you managed to find something on wikipedia that supports your midguided argument. *smacks forehead* Are you thick? Can you not read? No shit, most cars have some camber. They're DESIGNED THAT WAY. Didn't I already say that?

That doesn't mean the end user jacking even more camber into things is automatically going to improve anything.

You'll notice the race car pictured on that page has very round treads. You'll notice most "racing" wheelchairs do as well.

If you put those wheels on your lowered riceburner, camber wouldn't be a problem, and you'd have lots of room in the wheelwells to adjust it anyway.

However, what we're dealing with here are generally cars with oversized wheels, and low-profile tires with very wide, very flat treads, and when you jack in more camber than their suspension geometry is designed to deal with, you end up running on the inner edges of your tires and have reduced contact.

Angling your tires like that MAY aid the grip on the outside of the turn, but it's going to wreak havoc with the inside tire's contact patch... and again, you're
reducing your overall traction, and wrecking your handling.

Quote:
majority of todays mods on the car are for looks. lowering minimizes the wheel gap space making the car look better.
That's entirely subjective. I've seen very few instances where it's done WELL; usually it just looks like someone decided to make the car as low as possible with no real consideration for the aesthetics of it.

Quote:
you'd be a fool if you didnt admit that looks play a big factor in todays cars.
I freely admit that. My point is that all too often, it's done at the expense of performance, but done under the premise of improving performance. Case in point are the idiots slamming their cars without adjusting the camber appropriately (be it through available adjustments or via camber kit), or worse, those who simply can't adjust it because, as you brought up, they've installed oversized/over-offset wheels that don't fit the wheelwells when the proper camber is used.

If you're doing it for looks, and you're admitting you're only doing it for looks, that's fine. A lot of guys won't admit that it's only for looks, but claim that it's done in the name of handling, either because they don't want to appear shallow, or because they want to look like they know something about modding cars for performance when they don't really know shit.

Don't pretend that fucking up your suspension like that has anything to do with improving handling. It doesn't.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:05 AM   #17
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Back to the original topic, given that the OP's car is a relatively stock car with relatively stock alignment settings, I don't believe he will need to flip the tires. This might be useful information for future readers.

I think most people will find it surprising that camber doesn't actually wear out tires that much quicker. What wears out tire quickest, alignment-wise, is a combination of toe and a bit of camber. If taken out of factory specs, I find that it wears out your inner edge of the tire quite excessively.

***

Personally, I don't believe adding a bit more camber from factory hurts either for a number of reasons. I'm not talking about huge changes here, more like 1 degree or so more negative than the original specs. Again, I don't believe this will be a problem for the majority of cars out there today.

Firstly, no matter how well-engineered the suspension is, chances are that outside tires on most production cars out there will not run at optimum instantaneous camber angle when taken to the extreme limit of cornering, which btw is not 0 degrees (or perpendicular to the ground). This includes the various types of suspension like solid beam, swing axle, SLA, double wishbone, multi-link, MacPherson strut, etc..

Yes, most cars gain camber (more negative) when they are lowered, and lose some (more positive) after a certain point, but depending on how much you do so, do you really need to change that? Just like a few of us have mentioned already, some do for looks, if the numbers aren't great enough to reduce overall performance, it might not raise a concern. I find that camber adjustment really comes into play when you want it equal on both sides and when the factory adjustors are out of range of the target spec, which may or may not be less than the result of lowering. That being said, toe will always need adjustment after lowering, I'm not ruling that out. I think is a good idea to do a full alignment and adjust everything while you're at it.

HOWEVER, no matter how good the suspension is on a production car, you will almost never have a straight tire during cornering.

Optimum angle, braking, acceleration, tire life, wheel offset, tire width, and compound aside, is actually slightly more negative. This is due to an effect called "camber thrust." That being said, I am totally aware of the fact that you have to take the mentioned things into account. Even then, I am almost certain you can add a small amount of camber (negative) from factory without much harm.

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. I have run my RSX (MacPherson strut + SLA) with excess of -2 degrees of camber and toe, on a number of tires, including a number of summer tires, as well as competition tires with the rounded corner as mentioned. Now I'm running in stock class with a different car, again with excess of -2 degrees of camber with toe. According feedback, lap times, and pyrometer readings, I could still use some more negative camber. Without the help of a lot of data, the general rule of thumb is usually to add as much camber as possible without seriously compromising straight-line ability and tire life.

It is until you jump into a true racecar or run insanely high spring rates that you might be able to get away with lower static camber angles, if cornering performance is desired.

This brings me to my second point. Production car engineers have a lot to consider when they design the suspension, as mentioned by Soundy. I'll keep this short by saying that they have not designed the perfect suspension geometry because there is no such thing. When a design is good at cornering and keeping the tire straight, it may, for example, not be good at keeping track width constant, or it may not be good at keeping the roll centre consistent, or it may not perform well at other wheel positions, etc.. Tire angle in the straight is not enough for cornering and until they design a special suspension that adjusts itself automatically or design a completely new tire concept, no car will be able to keep up with this demand for camber change, no matter how good the suspension is designed. I think for most production cars, straightline takes precedence. I think we are all aware that some cars perform better in some regions than others. I'm sure Porche's engineers have kept their cars sticking to the road, the same way BMW engineers have kept their suspension relatively "sporty" without sacrificing too much cornering performance. I think the manufacturers out there are most concerned with NVH, tire life, and performce. Obviously, how much performance depends on the designed purpose of the car, otherwise the other things take precedence.

So, what I'm trying to say is, it's not exactly wreaking havoc to your tire and handling when you add a little bit of camber. I'm sure everyone in this thread agrees with this, that we're not talking about crazy -3, -4 degrees and up here. Use common sense! I just want to make sure we are all on the same page.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:43 AM   #18
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holy shit, someones deeply adamant over this topic...

i gave an example of why cars have camber and answered ur original question, and was the first webpage that explained it that i found. in that situation, its an extreme case. most cars come with a camber of 1 degree. if you lowered your car roughly 1.5in's as most "sport" lowering springs are around, then your camber hits close to 2 degree, id say closer to 1.8 degree. anything greater than 2 to 2.5 degrees should consider a camber kit, anything greater than 3 degrees, well, should get the overall suspension checked from a bent arm to a blown wheel bearing...

Im explaining the situation of most cars. by far im not an expert, but working with suspensions and mounting tires has taught me a lot. and i did say, if its not lowered, and the tires arent what i call "inner/outers" then dont bother flipping them. proper alignment can only go so far for some cars that have no camber adjustment, and toe adjustment is maxed out to correct for camber wear. most customers dont realize this, most dont even consider a camber kit.

to the OP, i asked if what he asked was either really rotating the tires or flipping them, as a lot of customers come in meaning either or.

did you get smoked by some ricer kid with camber out heavy19s on his civic dx to get u so hot n heavy over this topic? =P im being civil keeping on topic and keeping my tourettes in check.

take a deep breathe, inhale, exhale..



Quote:
Originally posted by Soundy
Very good, you managed to find something on wikipedia that supports your midguided argument. *smacks forehead* Are you thick? Can you not read? No shit, most cars have some camber. They're DESIGNED THAT WAY. Didn't I already say that?

That doesn't mean the end user jacking even more camber into things is automatically going to improve anything.

You'll notice the race car pictured on that page has very round treads. You'll notice most "racing" wheelchairs do as well.

If you put those wheels on your lowered riceburner, camber wouldn't be a problem, and you'd have lots of room in the wheelwells to adjust it anyway.

However, what we're dealing with here are generally cars with oversized wheels, and low-profile tires with very wide, very flat treads, and when you jack in more camber than their suspension geometry is designed to deal with, you end up running on the inner edges of your tires and have reduced contact.

Angling your tires like that MAY aid the grip on the outside of the turn, but it's going to wreak havoc with the inside tire's contact patch... and again, you're
reducing your overall traction, and wrecking your handling.



That's entirely subjective. I've seen very few instances where it's done WELL; usually it just looks like someone decided to make the car as low as possible with no real consideration for the aesthetics of it.



I freely admit that. My point is that all too often, it's done at the expense of performance, but done under the premise of improving performance. Case in point are the idiots slamming their cars without adjusting the camber appropriately (be it through available adjustments or via camber kit), or worse, those who simply can't adjust it because, as you brought up, they've installed oversized/over-offset wheels that don't fit the wheelwells when the proper camber is used.

If you're doing it for looks, and you're admitting you're only doing it for looks, that's fine. A lot of guys won't admit that it's only for looks, but claim that it's done in the name of handling, either because they don't want to appear shallow, or because they want to look like they know something about modding cars for performance when they don't really know shit.

Don't pretend that fucking up your suspension like that has anything to do with improving handling. It doesn't.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:56 AM   #19
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holy shit, someones deeply adamant over this topic...
Because everything you've posted so far has merely perpetuated the myth that "if some camber is good, more must be better" that seems to pervade the ricer scene.

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i gave an example of why cars have camber
And I never said they didn't. Hell, I've seen trucks with insane POSITIVE camber and enough positive caster so the wheels are almost flat to the ground when they're hard-over. it's all dependent on the situation and what the vehicle is designed for. Look at a stock car set up for an oval track sometime - the camber is different on each side, specific to turning left all the time, and in fact, usually adjusted differently specific to the track they're running on that week.

All I said from the start was that if your camber is so far out that it's causing enough wear to require flipping your tires, then you've done something WRONG, and you're not improving your performance.
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Old 02-06-2008, 10:37 AM   #20
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no, i said some camber is good. you added the line more camber is better! re read, if you are so passionate about this as you are, because YOU added the line, not me. YOU sir took it out of context

and before you type it, i will, RICER. cuz it seems you love that word with a passion...

lowering even 1.5 will have camber wear on the tires. if youve been driving on them for 2+ years, and want to prolong the tire as much as you can, then flipping them is the most economical choice.

so your saying lowering your car without a camber kit, only toe adjust will give you ZERO camber wear? that is a myth. throwing out the toe will AID in some camber wear, but will not prevent it from happening.



Quote:
Originally posted by Soundy
Because everything you've posted so far has merely perpetuated the myth that "if some camber is good, more must be better" that seems to pervade the ricer scene.



And I never said they didn't. Hell, I've seen trucks with insane POSITIVE camber and enough positive caster so the wheels are almost flat to the ground when they're hard-over. it's all dependent on the situation and what the vehicle is designed for. Look at a stock car set up for an oval track sometime - the camber is different on each side, specific to turning left all the time, and in fact, usually adjusted differently specific to the track they're running on that week.

All I said from the start was that if your camber is so far out that it's causing enough wear to require flipping your tires, then you've done something WRONG, and you're not improving your performance.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:57 PM   #21
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Originally posted by SG@advmotors
no, i said some camber is good. you added the line more camber is better! re read, if you are so passionate about this as you are, because YOU added the line, not me. YOU sir took it out of context

and before you type it, i will, RICER. cuz it seems you love that word with a passion...

lowering even 1.5 will have camber wear on the tires. if youve been driving on them for 2+ years, and want to prolong the tire as much as you can, then flipping them is the most economical choice.

so your saying lowering your car without a camber kit, only toe adjust will give you ZERO camber wear? that is a myth. throwing out the toe will AID in some camber wear, but will not prevent it from happening.
If you are referring to my post, I carefully wrote that depending how much you lower it, you may or may not need a camber kit, unless in the outlined situations. Some springs barely lower over an 1", on *some* suspension, it might not gain very much camber at all. To be fair, some suspension picks up camber really quickly in a certain range. I see this very often in the rear suspension of older Civics, where the upper link is much shorter than the lower one. I can see a potential problem there.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:53 PM   #22
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sorry bro, was in response to soundy's post.

Quote:
Originally posted by [RSX-S]
If you are referring to my post, I carefully wrote that depending how much you lower it, you may or may not need a camber kit, unless in the outlined situations. Some springs barely lower over an 1", on *some* suspension, it might not gain very much camber at all. To be fair, some suspension picks up camber really quickly in a certain range. I see this very often in the rear suspension of older Civics, where the upper link is much shorter than the lower one. I can see a potential problem there.
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:47 AM   #23
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Umm. wow... although I hardly understand the replies you guys gave (beyond my understand of cars "-_-), really appreciate all the replies.

If anyone's still wondering, my car's stock, done nothing to it. No lowering, or changing the camber thingy.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:13 AM   #24
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Originally posted by reamemiya
Umm. wow... although I hardly understand the replies you guys gave (beyond my understand of cars "-_-), really appreciate all the replies.

If anyone's still wondering, my car's stock, done nothing to it. No lowering, or changing the camber thingy.
Umm... I forgot the original question...?

So anyway... any Kal Tire should do it for free, even if you didn't buy the tires there. Or a little time with a jack and a lug wrench and you can do it yourself quite easily.
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:21 PM   #25
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i have 12k km on my tires.. i think it's almost time for the X rotation thing to keep tire thread life...

any recommendation to reliable shops??

Reliable shops as in shops that does a great job with balancing the car after swapping the front with the rear tires in a cross direction.
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