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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 02-03-2009, 08:15 AM   #1
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Turning left midblock across a double yellow

Just a question. WHY do so many people assume it's illegal to do that?

*EDIT* my topic should've been midblock turns in GENERAL, not necessarily restricted to DOUBLE yellows.

I hate the impatient drivers who honk when I'm trying to make a left turn on Kingsway in burnaby into the Canadian Wholesale Club parking lot. Note that this doesn't happen often (honking), but it has happened once or twice.

On a different forum some of the responses was that 'single yellow is okay, double yellow as long as you dont impede traffic'.

First of all, what kind of nonsense is that? THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between a single vs double solid yellow is that the double solid PROHIBITS passing. Turning is a different story! I mean I can understand if they say 'dont impede traffic' for both lines but to differentiate a single and double yellow like that just shows plain ignorance.

Anyway, the motor vehicle act does NOT prohibit this. The ROADSENSE book says you can do it as long as it's safe and you don't impede traffic (but I think the MVA is more credible, even so, impeding traffic can be left open to interpretation as well).

What's the consensus on this rule?

IMO:

#1
Turning left midblock (whether it's across a single or double yellow) is no different than turning at an intersection (with respect to 'impeding traffic').

HOWEVER, if the oncoming traffic is bumper to bumper and probably won't clear for some time, then I agree, skip the midblock turn and turn at an intersection further down (I will do this even if it's technically not midblock, ie. a turn onto a side street.) The reason for this is simple. If you're turning midblock and oncoming traffic is very heavy and they face a red light, there's a VERY good chance traffic will block you from being able to turn, compared to intersections where people know not to block intersections.

#2
Don't do it RIGHT after crossing an intersection (ie. into a gas station) because you'll cause traffic behind you to back up into the intersection! (This is a no brainer).

#3
If you're one of those whiners who bitch about people making these turns and holding up traffic what happens when they do it at an intersection? Are they not holding up traffic then?
Also, why are you in the left lane anyway? Stay in the right lane unless you're about to turn or are passing and you wouldn't have to worry about encountering people turning left and blocking your way. Plain and simple.

What do you guys think of this? Has anyone ever gotten a ticket for turning midblock and 'impeding traffic'?
The only stories I've heard are where a cop mistakenly thought it was illegal to turn left across a double yellow and wrongfully issued a ticket.


All of the above apply for single yellows as well. Is there any logic to make a big deal about double yellows but then say that it's okay to do it on a single yellow? That doesn't make sense does it?
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Last edited by E=mc; 02-03-2009 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:01 AM   #2
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I t-boned someone that turned left at that same spot trying to get into the Canadian Wholesale parking lot. After I came to a full stop (by smashing my Integra into his Camry), the guy behind me (Golf) rear-ended me. The cops gave the Camry guy a ticket and he was found fully at fault. The cop asked me specifically while telling my statement if there were any markings on the road that should prohibit a left turn there. I said there was a double solid line, and the cop just smiled.
Yeah I just bought a new CF hood, just had my car painted, and just got all-around camber kit installed, like a week before... $2000 down the drain.

I was in the far right lane, and the Camry didn't see me there, so he saw a gap in the 2 leftmost lanes and went for it.

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/lanes/tur...er-solid-lines

Last edited by skidmark; 02-03-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:15 AM   #3
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"Just a question. WHY do so many people assume it's illegal to do that?"

Becouse in most cases, its illegal to do that.

"If you're one of those whiners who bitch about people making these turns and holding up traffic what happens when they do it at an intersection? Are they not holding up traffic then?"

Guess what? Im the guy behind you honking. When you hold up traffic, its illegal. Move, and stop causing problems. Go find an intersection to make your turn in. Then its not illegal and annoying. Plus when the light turns, you get to move out of my way, instead of holding up traffic because you think its alright. Thanks.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXQBLGH View Post
Also, why are you in the left lane anyway? Stay in the right lane unless you're about to turn or are passing and you wouldn't have to worry about encountering people turning left and blocking your way. Plain and simple.
You want EVERY car that isn't turning left to stay in the right lane on Kingsway during rush hour? That's ridiculous. Cut the traffic flow by 50% because you want to save 30 seconds of your day by turning left there instead of going around the block.

Last edited by skidmark; 02-03-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redrum781 View Post
I t-boned someone that turned left at that same spot trying to get into the Canadian Wholesale parking lot. After I came to a full stop (by smashing my Integra into his Camry), the guy behind me (Golf) rear-ended me. The cops gave the Camry guy a ticket and he was found fully at fault. The cop asked me specifically while telling my statement if there were any markings on the road that should prohibit a left turn there. I said there was a double solid line, and the cop just smiled.
Yeah I just bought a new CF hood, just had my car painted, and just got all-around camber kit installed, like a week before... $2000 down the drain.

I was in the far right lane, and the Camry didn't see me there, so he saw a gap in the 2 leftmost lanes and went for it.

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/lanes/tur...er-solid-lines
That doesn't dispute my argument. He turned when it wasn't safe. Obviously he's at fault. This isn't restrictive to MIDBLOCK turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91civicZC View Post
"Just a question. WHY do so many people assume it's illegal to do that?"

Becouse in most cases, its illegal to do that.

No, in most cases, it is not.

Guess what? I’m the guy behind you honking. When you hold up traffic, it’s illegal. Move, and stop causing problems. Go find an intersection to make your turn in. Then its not illegal and annoying. Plus when the light turns, you get to move out of my way, instead of holding up traffic because you think its alright. Thanks.
Guess what, I'm the one giving you the finger if you catch me in a bad mood. Otherwise, keep honking and I will just take my time.

You're not making sense there. I'm holding up traffic at the midblock turn. So it's gonna be better if I hold up traffic at an intersection 50 feet further down?


Quote:
Originally Posted by redrum781 View Post
You want EVERY car that isn't turning left to stay in the right lane on Kingsway during rush hour? That's ridiculous. Cut the traffic flow by 50% because you want to save 30 seconds of your day by turning left there instead of going around the block.
No I don't expect this during rush hour. I meant outside of rush hour. Believe me, if rush hour didn't matter then the whole issue with "get out of the left lane unless you're passing" arguments that you see all the time would be pointless right? We all know this is a valid issue.

With regards to cutting traffic flow. Again, you people aren't addressing my point that states that if I make the turn at an intersection instead of midblock, IT'S THE SAME THING!

See my point #1. I said that if traffic was heavy and stuff (this is situational) I will skip the turn. This is just common sense I guess. I will NOT skip the turn if traffic isn't too bad (if the waiting time is say 10 seconds that's not considered bad).

Now, those of you against this. What if the line was a single yellow? Is it now okay all of a sudden?

Last edited by skidmark; 02-03-2009 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:29 AM   #6
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It's called drive with some respect and common sense. If I'm behind you and you decide to take a left and there is little traffic on the road, I'll just go in the other lane to get around you. If there is so much traffic that I'm stuck behind you (and everyone else is stuck behind me) because you want to save 30 seconds of your day, I'm gonna lean on my horn until you get the hell out of my way.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:09 AM   #7
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Yes drive with respect and common sense. That's what I said in my post. If traffic is super heavy that it most likely won't clear (and I don't have the buffer of a traffic light to aid my turn) then I won't do it. I stated that twice...

From your post it seems like you'd be pissed everytime you got stuck behind a left turner. If that's the case, then yes please stay in the right lane.
So what if I decide to turn left while traffic is heavy at a blinking green light (you'll have to wait through the entire blinking green which can be long + the red). Will you still be pissed because you're now stuck behind me? What if I'm on Knight St (southbound) and want to turn left onto 51st Ave? This is almost like a midblock turn in a sense that there's no traffic light. It's a turn onto a small residential street. It's still an "intersection" and the yellow line is broken so I guess you wouldn't be pissed now all of a sudden? But if it's a midblock all of a sudden it's a problem??

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Midblock or not, it's the same thing.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. Simply trying to see the validity of the different points of views. Nobody seems to be able to address my point that 'impeding' traffic is the same whether it's midblock or not (while still keeping in mind that one shouldnt do it if traffic is TOO heavy).
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:15 AM   #8
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Oh and I checked your link
http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/lanes/tur...er-solid-lines

It even states that 'unreasonable' [obstruction of traffic] is open to interpretation.

" If you are leaving the highway mid-block, the oncoming lanes are solid bumper to bumper, the traffic is busy behind you and there is no way for others overtaking you to go around legally, you should be considering making the turn at an intersection and coming back."

Umm, that's exactly what I said in point #1 that I made in my first post.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:15 AM   #9
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Here you go...the rule book says..

Highway lines
155 (1) Despite anything in this Part, if a highway is marked with

(a) a solid double line, the driver of a vehicle must drive it to the right of the line only,

(b) a double line consisting of a broken line and a solid line,

(i) the driver of a vehicle proceeding along the highway on the side of the broken line must drive the vehicle to the right of the double line, except when passing an overtaken vehicle, and

(ii) the driver of a vehicle proceeding along the highway on the side of the solid line must drive the vehicle to the right of the double line, except only when finishing the passing of an overtaken vehicle, and

(c) one single line, broken or solid, the driver of a vehicle must drive the vehicle to the right of the line, except only when passing an overtaken vehicle.

(2) Subsection (1) (b) (i) and (c) do not apply if a driver is avoiding an obstruction on the highway and first ascertains that the movement can be made with safety and without affecting the travel of any other vehicle.

Suspension of sections 151 and 155
156 If the driver of a vehicle is causing the vehicle to enter or leave a highway and the driver has ascertained that he or she might do so with safety and does so without unreasonably affecting the travel of another vehicle, the provisions of sections 151 and 155 are suspended with respect to the driver while the vehicle is entering or leaving the highway.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:26 AM   #10
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I'm pissed if you are trying to turn into a parking lot over a double-solid line and I'm stuck behind you for an unreasonable amount of time. No, I'm not pissed if you are turning onto another street. You have to be able to get where you are going. When it's onto a street, there is usually a break in the lines at the intersection so the driver isn't breaking the law by impeding traffic.
That parking lot at Canadian Wholesale can be entered various other ways that don't make the person entering piss off 50 other drivers.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zulutango View Post
Here you go...the rule book says..

Highway lines
155 (1) Despite anything in this Part, if a highway is marked with

(a) a solid double line, the driver of a vehicle must drive it to the right of the line only,

(b) a double line consisting of a broken line and a solid line,

(i) the driver of a vehicle proceeding along the highway on the side of the broken line must drive the vehicle to the right of the double line, except when passing an overtaken vehicle, and

(ii) the driver of a vehicle proceeding along the highway on the side of the solid line must drive the vehicle to the right of the double line, except only when finishing the passing of an overtaken vehicle, and

(c) one single line, broken or solid, the driver of a vehicle must drive the vehicle to the right of the line, except only when passing an overtaken vehicle.

(2) Subsection (1) (b) (i) and (c) do not apply if a driver is avoiding an obstruction on the highway and first ascertains that the movement can be made with safety and without affecting the travel of any other vehicle.

Suspension of sections 151 and 155
156 If the driver of a vehicle is causing the vehicle to enter or leave a highway and the driver has ascertained that he or she might do so with safety and does so without unreasonably affecting the travel of another vehicle, the provisions of sections 151 and 155 are suspended with respect to the driver while the vehicle is entering or leaving the highway.

Thank you. Well that shows that a) double solid or single solid, they are treated the same with regards to midblock turns and b) unreasonable is open to interpretation.

I found another section in the MVA that seems to not mention anything about "unreasonably" obstructing traffic.

Quote:
Turning left other than at intersection
166 A driver of a vehicle must not turn the vehicle to the left from a highway at a place other than an intersection unless

(a) the driver causes the vehicle to approach the place on the portion of the right hand side of the roadway that is nearest the marked centre line, or if there is no marked centre line, then as far as practicable in the portion of the right half of the roadway that is nearest the centre line,
(b) the vehicle is in the position on the highway required by paragraph (a), and
(c) the driver has ascertained that the movement can be made in safety, having regard to the nature, condition and use of the highway and the traffic that actually is at the time or might reasonably be expected to be on the highway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redrum781 View Post
I'm pissed if you are trying to turn into a parking lot over a double-solid line and I'm stuck behind you for an unreasonable amount of time. No, I'm not pissed if you are turning onto another street. You have to be able to get where you are going. When it's onto a street, there is usually a break in the lines at the intersection so the driver isn't breaking the law by impeding traffic.
That parking lot at Canadian Wholesale can be entered various other ways that don't make the person entering piss off 50 other drivers.
Well you have a point if it's unreasonable. If traffic is endless no way am I making that turn (save some gas too while I'm at it). But I just hate it when people seem to think it's strictly illegal when it isn't.

While I did say I don't think one should do it at a non-intersection if traffic is too thick, I will say that the impediment is the same. Also, you mentioned that "you have to be able to get where you are going"....isn't that the same thing? If my destination is the canadian wholesale club, I need to turn into the parking lot to get to where I'm going. (I sorta see what you're trying to say but ya know...)

Another example of a location where turns like this are common. Grandview Hwy eastbound between Renfrew and Rupert. A lot of people turn left across the single yellow to get into the superstore back entrance (it's faster than going to rupert turn left, and then another left to get into the parking lot).
What I find funny is that I don't think I've ever seen anyone honk (even when the person was definitely unreasonably obstructing traffic - ie. traffic was thick wait time was > 30 seconds). Probably because "its a SINGLE solid" and people think it's alright.


I've done it with a cop behind me (turning into the wholesale club on kingsway) and the cop merely switched lanes when there was a gap in the right lane. Good thing he aint a prick.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:21 PM   #12
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The only time left turners piss me off is if they don't signal. Sure, I'll be annoyed if they signaled in advance and I just couldn't change lanes, but if you signal at the last second and I'm behind you I'd be annoyed. (a little off topic) I'd be really really pissed (and it happens way too often) that someone will be at a red light and when the light turns green, then they turn on the left turn signal, when if they signaled in advance, I could change lanes.
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:19 PM   #13
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if someone is behind and honking, you are unreasonably affecting the travel of them.... time to go straight.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:40 PM   #14
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Just a question. WHY do so many people assume it's illegal to do that?
Because many drivers don't have the necessary knowledge to drive properly?
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:18 PM   #15
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If I have to go from 50 km/h to stopped, because you want to turn across a bunch of traffic (and let's all face it... it won't be a quick turn) - that's unreasonable.

If you can do it without me having to come to a complete stop behind you - give 'er!
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by wing_woo View Post
The only time left turners piss me off is if they don't signal. Sure, I'll be annoyed if they signaled in advance and I just couldn't change lanes, but if you signal at the last second and I'm behind you I'd be annoyed. (a little off topic) I'd be really really pissed (and it happens way too often) that someone will be at a red light and when the light turns green, then they turn on the left turn signal, when if they signaled in advance, I could change lanes.
100% agree
If I forget to signal, I always always skip the intersection and turn at the next one. As I mentioned, I am all about respecting other drivers.
The only times when I signaled right when the light turned green was when I made the sudden decision to turn there, and there are only a couple oncoming cars.

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Originally Posted by johny View Post
if someone is behind and honking, you are unreasonably affecting the travel of them.... time to go straight.
It rarely happens to me (except for the odd time on kingsway) but then there's no way in hell that's unreasonably affecting them if they are not waiting long. I've seen it happen to someone else on kingsway one time where the dude behind was just being a dick and wasn't willing to wait 4 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
Because many drivers don't have the necessary knowledge to drive properly?
true. I hate when people just assume it's illegal. The book says "double solid = no passing at any time" and they interpret that as "no turning across it".
This doesnt apply to everyone, but you can tell when some people are dicks when it comes to a double yellow but dont mind when someones turning across a single yellow. As I said, there's no difference between the 2 lines other than the double yellow restricts passing in both directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlenko View Post
If I have to go from 50 km/h to stopped, because you want to turn across a bunch of traffic (and let's all face it... it won't be a quick turn) - that's unreasonable.

If you can do it without me having to come to a complete stop behind you - give 'er!
Unreasonable is open to interpretation. If going from 50 to a complete stop is unreasonable to you then boo hoo stay out of the left lane. You're speaking as if coming to a full stop is the worst thing in the world. You come to a full stop all the time at red lights (i hope), when someone in front of you is turning left at an intersection (same shit really), when YOU are attempting to turn left, or someone in front of you is trying to turn right.

As I said, I'm all for not holding up traffic if oncoming traffic is heavy and my direction is heavy too. Simply because a) I don't wanna hold up traffic as this is unreasonable, and b) I don't want to risk having oncoming traffic block me from making the turn (if they are facing a red light and there are too many cars), although I'm sure they would leave a gap for me.

However, if the center or right lane in my direction isn't heavy, then I'm not being unreasonable, you can simply switch lanes when safe. Hell if traffic in my direction isn't heavy, you shouldn't be cruising in the left lane to begin with...
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:04 AM   #17
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Try visiting downtown, there are a lot of streets with a solid yellow where people turn across it to get into the parkades. Turns across the yellow are very common in downtown.

To be honest I think the real assholes are the ones who are so quick with the horn and can't even wait a few seconds.

On smaller streets like Pender (in burnaby) there's a solid yellow and parked cars on the side so it's effectively 1 lane in each direction. There are times when a left turn is required to get into an apartment parking lot (when I'm visiting a friend for instance). I guess I'm an ass if I make you wait a few seconds before turning in, I should drive around the block just to please your impatient ass eh?

In downtown Davie St, there's an area (forgot the cross street) where I (and so have many others) have to make a left across the yellow to get into the grocery store parkade. Since it's two lanes but the curb has parked cars, I'm essentially blocking the only lane of traffic. I don't think I've (nor have I seen others) gotten honked ever. Then again the wait is never super long anyway, at the worst probably 10 seconds but that's not too common.

Knowing how crappy the street configuration is in downtown with all the one ways, there's no way anyone would 'go around the block' just in order to make a right instead and please the impatient assholes.

People need to chill and not be in such a hurry all the time. Perhaps people should leave earlier (maybe 10 seconds earlier?) just in case some "asshole" decides make them wait a little while he attempts to turn midblock. But whoops, the guy down the next block wants to turn left at an intersection, but I guess the person is fine with waiting because hey it's an intersection.

Then again, people in vancouver seem to always like driving in the left lane all the time...maybe they need to learn to stay out of the left lane


ANYWAY, SORRY FOR THE RANT
I just hate it when drivers are so quick on the horn and (some) don't know what's legal and what's not.
It's already been proven from the MVA that the key is whether traffic is being 'unreasonably' held up. Yet, some people like to interpret 'unreasonable' as "**** you made me come to a complete stop! wtf? I'm the king of the road I should never have to stop completely just because you wanna turn!".

Last edited by E=mc; 02-05-2009 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:19 AM   #18
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Unreasonable is open to interpretation. If going from 50 to a complete stop is unreasonable to you then boo hoo stay out of the left lane. You're speaking as if coming to a full stop is the worst thing in the world. You come to a full stop all the time at red lights (i hope), when someone in front of you is turning left at an intersection (same shit really), when YOU are attempting to turn left, or someone in front of you is trying to turn right.

As I said, I'm all for not holding up traffic if oncoming traffic is heavy and my direction is heavy too. Simply because a) I don't wanna hold up traffic as this is unreasonable, and b) I don't want to risk having oncoming traffic block me from making the turn (if they are facing a red light and there are too many cars), although I'm sure they would leave a gap for me.

However, if the center or right lane in my direction isn't heavy, then I'm not being unreasonable, you can simply switch lanes when safe. Hell if traffic in my direction isn't heavy, you shouldn't be cruising in the left lane to begin with...
Uh, yeah... I know how to drive. Of course I come to a full stop at red lights, even if I'm turning right. I don't roll through either - I'm not stupid. There's things like pedestrians to think about. And I come to a complete stop at stop signs too - even if there's no one else around.

If traffic is heavy in both directions, and there's little to no chance of me being able to make that left turn in the middle of the block in the next few minutes (that is unreasonable, in my humble opinion)... then I wouldn't even try - I go ahead two blocks, turn right three times and one left at a proper intersection and come back. Then I don't block ANY traffic. I'm never in such a hurry that I need to get somewhere so fast that I can't take an alternate route.

BTW, the left lane is the passing lane... not the turning lane.

Interpretation - let's just hope YOUR interpretation is the same as everyone else's, including the cop who sees you doing it.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:13 PM   #19
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If traffic is heavy in both directions, and there's little to no chance of me being able to make that left turn in the middle of the block in the next few minutes (that is unreasonable, in my humble opinion)... then I wouldn't even try - I go ahead two blocks, turn right three times and one left at a proper intersection and come back. Then I don't block ANY traffic. I'm never in such a hurry that I need to get somewhere so fast that I can't take an alternate route.

Fully agree. And I did mention this.

BTW, the left lane is the passing lane... not the turning lane.

Yes, but you are allowed to be in the left lane if you plan on making a turn (how else can you make a left turn otherwise).

Interpretation - let's just hope YOUR interpretation is the same as everyone else's, including the cop who sees you doing it.

My interpretation of it is reasonable IMO and I've done it with a cop behind me (like literally the car right behind me). I never said it'd be alright to hold up traffic for a full minute when traffic in both directions are heavy. That's definitely unreasonable (although I've seen people do it, ie. grandview hwy turning into the superstore back entrance (meant for trucks).
SPEAKING OF WHICH, trucks seem to have immunity against this rule I assume, because both the superstore location and the kingsway one into the wholesale club, trucks dont seem to mind blocking the left lane and I'm sure no cop will ticket a truck for doing that.

And don't take my response the wrong way. It's just that I thought it was unreasonable when you defined 'unreasonable' as coming to a full stop from 50km/h in your first post. Now your second post defines unreasonable as not being able to turn "in the next few minutes". I get your point now no worries . I usually say 10 seconds max, but then even 20 I don't think is too unreasonable.

I guess the chances of a cop giving me a ticket for this is very slim (because for the most part I'm not making it "unreasonable" although I don't know if most cops even know that. What would make me pissed is if a cop pulls me over for turning across the line because he thought it was illegal for me to do that - even when I didn't violate the 'unreasonable' rule. Some cops don't know that you can turn across a double yellow (but then think a single yellow is okay). That's what would frustrate me since they will waste both my time and theirs when I have to explain the whole MVA rules to them. And no I'm not gonna give up making these turns when safe just to avoid the rare chance some ignorant cop will "catch" me.
Again. I don't mean to rant folks. My gripe isn't people who are pissed off because they have to wait a few minutes behind someone trying to make a turn midblock (although I DO stand by saying that it's no different than an intersection in terms of traffic impediment).
My main gripe is people who are quick on the horn and can't even stand waiting say 10-15 seconds for some guy to turn left. On most intersections without left turn lanes, you pretty much wait the entire green (plus the red after) if someone wants to turn left across heavy traffic. That's clearly much longer than a 15 second turn midblock....that's what some people don't get.

Last edited by E=mc; 02-05-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:29 AM   #20
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I agree with you... most people are too quick to lay into the horn. But you'll also get other people who are too feeble to honk ever, even if they're in the right. Plus there are those people whose horns don't even work!

Just the same... there are drivers who lack any sort of confidence... turning left at a light... the light goes red, they don't go... then they sit in the middle of the intersection.

I don't like the word "unreasonable" because it IS open to interpretation. There is no clearly defined rule. That creates problems... and discussion, which is good I suppose
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