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Old 02-18-2009, 05:39 PM   #1
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Revscene, I need your help - doing a paper on hybrid engines.

Hey Revscene, hopefully the automotive chat is the right place to ask around for hybrid engines.

Anyway, I'm doing a research paper on hybrid engines. I've heard on these forums long long time ago (too long for the search to work?) that there was an article saying how the hybrid engines are bad for the environment because of the processing of the materials made in the hybrid engine and its battery (may ONLY be the battery, not the engine).

I'm just wondering if anyone could direct me to the said article, because I plan to argue against the practicality of hybrids and mention alternative "eco-friendly" methods of automotive transportation, such as smaller displacement engines and diesel engines.

Thanks for your help and attention in advance!

Oh, and btw, any other information regarding hybrid engines and diesel engines are welcome! (articles/links preferred)
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:55 PM   #2
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http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:14 PM   #3
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Goddd damn, my thesis is ruined... the "Dust to Dust" article (the article I was looking for), which stated that the hummer cost less per mile than the prius was a totally unreliable and non-peer reviewed source

time to think of a new thesis/topic...
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:23 PM   #4
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The hummer article is factually definately garbage, however it does raise some legitimate concerns.

I'm too tired to write much, but I'll give you some of my insights, since selling hybrids and diesels is part of my job.

HYBRIDS:

- Hybrids are a long term investment. You have to own the hybrid for about 10 years or ~200,000kms to REALLY start seeing your money back. You could buy the equivalent non-hybrid version of the vehicle for much less $, and that difference would take years for the hybrid to make up.

- That said, if you drive your hybrid exclusively in the city, it will take less time to pay itself off, as hybrids get awesome city MPG in comparison to normal cars. (because the electric motor runs from 0-55kph and then the gas motor kicks in.) But if you do mostly highway driving, a hybrid will take much longer to pay it's dues, as some gas or diesel cars can actually get better HWY MPG.

- They are really a statement more than anything. Hybrid owners are showing that they want to save the environment, and this is their way of showing it. (never mind the more difficult but effective ways of REALLY saving the evironment, because that would actually require some real work.. this way they just BUY their ethical standpoint)

- Availability. You can get a brand-new gas engined Escape in almost any colour combo you want, but there are only a couple of new Hybrid Escapes in all of British Columbia at this moment. (I'm sure that other makes are similarly as rare in comarison to their gas-engined counterparts)

- You loose space and weight carrying capacity and performance due to the battery and electric engine.

- Although you loose a bit of handling performance and highway accerlation capability, electric engines have 100% of their torque available at idle - redline. That means you can actually get some truely epic accelleration out of a hybrid - but only up to ~55kph.

- It's such a cool thing when a hybrid cruises by DEAD SILENT in electric mode. Imagine a city with ALL hybrids - how much quieter and more pleasant would that be?

DIESEL ENGINES:

- You get more energy out of 1 litre of diesel than out of 1 litre of normal gas. (Admittely, I'm not sure how true that is, but I've read it on websites and many people have told me the same also)

- Diesel engines therefore can make more torque, and do more work at lower RPMs, achieving better fuel economy.

- Diesel has traditionally been fairly inexpensive.

- Most newer Diesels, in order to comply with emissions regulations, need ULTRA-LOW SULPHUR content Diesel.

- If more diesel cars are brought to market, the demand for diesel will skyrocket - but it will take time for supply to catch up. Hence, there will be a sharp rise in diesel prices. In fact, diesel has already risen in price to the point where it is more expensive than 87 octane in most places. Also, very few gas stations actually HAVE diesel pumps.

- Once diesel prices go up, they will become no more economical than well built, well refined gas engines.

- Diesel fucking stinks.

THE FUTURE:

- I foresee more and more smaller displacement highly developed turbocharged gas engines coming to market.

Heh. I wound up writing way more than I wanted too.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:52 PM   #5
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:30 PM   #6
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If you want even more to write about, you can discuss hydrogen fuel cell powered cars.

There was also a Top Gear segment where they drove an M3 and a Prius around the track and I think the M3 got better gas mileage under certain conditions (can't remember)...

Last edited by Nike One; 02-18-2009 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:50 PM   #7
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Thanks guys, especially Mr. Sandor.

You gave me enough points to write the whole essay!
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:53 PM   #8
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Remember, driving Hybrids save your POCKET, not saving the WORLD.

Do not forget how the Electric motors and the batteries were made.

Overall, the enviromental damages in making those hybrid cars could be as much as any gas-gazzlers....
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor View Post
- Diesel fucking stinks.
that is starting to become false, go to MB and put your face behind the new diesels that they use, you can have it running all day in the shop and wont smell it
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:58 AM   #10
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"BMW is preparing to put the 'd' back into the United States market. Starting in the fall of 2008, two models will be available with a 3.0-liter biturbo in-line six diesel engine. They'll make their first appearance at the 2008 North American International Auto Show.

The 335d and X5 xDrive 35d will be the first BMW diesels sold in the U.S. in well over two decades. The Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance is a version of BMW's diesel in-line six that's already sold in Europe, where diesels account for two-thirds of the company's new vehicle sales. The addition of BluePerformance urea injection allows these models to be sold in all fifty states, even those following California's strict emissions standards.

BluePerformance uses a solution called AdBlue, which is basically urea (yes, that urea) that is injected into the exhaust gas to turn nitrous oxides into nitrogen gas and water vapor. This works with a diesel particulate filter to reduce emissions. The AdBlue solution should only need to be replenished during regular service intervals, and BMW will include free refills in its 4-year/50,000-mile maintenance program. This is the same system that Mercedes-Benz uses in its Bluetec diesels.

just thought it was interesting.
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:35 AM   #11
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Good post by Rich Sandor... that article really feels biased, but the basic idea is correct: hybrids certainly aren't be end-all and be-all of environmentally friendly vehicles.

At least, not yet.

One other benefit to more people buying hybrids - whether their motives are pure or misguided or not - is that the technology continues to advance, which will make them more cost effective in time, and will also help advance the technology required for electric-only cars as well.

And just to be balanced, electric-only cars aren't the perfect solution either: in addition to the battery-manufacturing issues, the electricity to charge them has to come from somewhere, and in a lot of the world, the source of that energy isn't particularly green. If you live somewhere that gets power from coal- or gas-fired plants, all you're really doing is shifting the emissions from your tailpipe to that generating station.

The point is not to discourage people from buying hybrids, just to encourage them to be informed consumers and understand all the aspects of their choice of vehicles. There is no "perfect" solution that will work for everyone.
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
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There was also a Top Gear segment where they drove an M3 and a Prius around the track and I think the M3 got better gas mileage under certain conditions (can't remember)...
That was not so much a statement about hybrids as it was a statement about the way you drive your car is more important than it's stated milage.
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:10 AM   #13
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I think this thread teaches people don't rely on the internet / Revscene to do your homework.

There are no hybrid engines.. there are hybrid drivetrains which are usually a combination of a fossil fuel engine + a electricity storage unit and an electric motor.

If you are just taking about the fossil fuel engines in a hybrid drivetrain.. you should research on Atkinson cycle engine.. that's what Prius/Ford/etc uses for their gasoline component because it optimizes efficiency over power output.

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Old 02-20-2009, 12:13 AM   #14
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It is just a component of the Selective Catalyst Reduction system.. all heavy duty diesels (ie 4 banger up with more than 150HP).. would need it in order to reduce NOx to make it 50 states compliant. Lighter cars don't need it.. eg Jetta etc.

Quote:
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^
BluePerformance uses a solution called AdBlue, which is basically urea (yes, that urea) that is injected into the exhaust gas to turn nitrous oxides into nitrogen gas and water vapor. This works with a diesel particulate filter to reduce emissions. The AdBlue solution should only need to be replenished during regular service intervals, and BMW will include free refills in its 4-year/50,000-mile maintenance program. This is the same system that Mercedes-Benz uses in its Bluetec diesels.

just thought it was interesting.
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:30 AM   #15
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I was just gonna say I hope the OP gets an EPIC FAIL for writing a paper on hybrid engines.

godwin said in a much nicer way.
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godwin View Post
I think this thread teaches people don't rely on the internet / Revscene to do your homework.

There are no hybrid engines.. there are hybrid drivetrains which are usually a combination of a fossil fuel engine + a electricity storage unit and an electric motor.

If you are just taking about the fossil fuel engines in a hybrid drivetrain.. you should research on Atkinson cycle engine.. that's what Prius/Ford/etc uses for their gasoline component because it optimizes efficiency over power output.

GL
Yes, there are Hybrid Engines.

It's more like how people define the word "hybrid" in conjunction to the word Engine/drivetrain.

Last edited by cococly; 02-20-2009 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:36 AM   #17
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This is Revscene; improper english is to be expected.
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