REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

underscore · 05-18-2009, 03:39 AM

for starters, the ticket is written as "drive without consideration", MVA act, section 144(1)(b) with a $196 fine. I'm trying to determine if I have any grounds on which to dispute this ticket.

Quote:

144 (1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway

(a) without due care and attention,

(b) without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway, or

(c) at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions

what happened was I made a left turn onto a 1 way street downtown tonight, about 20 to 11 according to the ticket so it was dark out. I had dropped a gear and slowed down for the turn, then accelerated out of the turn. I wasn't looking at the gauges as I was looking at the road ahead of me around the corner, although I would estimate I was doing 35 through the corner and accelerated up to maybe 50 by the time I was fully finished the turn. just ahead of me I see the police van sitting at a stop sign waiting to turn onto the 1 way. as soon as I came around the corner, the van lights up and I pull over to the left. now the officer tells me that I was driving too fast around that corner, and gives me this ticket for "driving without consideration" as I "could have hit someone jaywalking" and that "would be on my conscience." I tried to explain to the officer that I could clearly see around the corner and that there was noone in the road but he completely ignored that and handed me the ticket.

now I think this is bull, so far as I can tell there's no law stating that you have to slow down a certain amount below the limit while turning. I was also not speeding and I could easily the road ahead of me where I would complete my turn. finally, he told me this is because someone could be jaywalking (though there was noone in sight) and I could hit them, however if someone is jaywalking are they not breaking the law? by this logic could you not give everyone who isn't creeping around corners a ticket because they might hit a jaywalker? I don't get how 144(1)(b) applies as that refers to "reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway", however anyone walking on a highway without using a crosswalk properly is using the highway illegally if my understanding is correct.

I also don't know if it makes a difference, but the officer wrote my house number in the space for my drivers license number, then kinda crossed it out (though not too well) and wrote my license number. could I use this to show he may have been tired from a long shift, or not fully paying attention?

finally if I dispute I was planning on taking several nighttime and daytime shots of the intersection and corner to show that I could clearly see around the corner well enough to know that there wasn't anyone around, let alone someone jaywalking. or would that be irrelevant?

SkinnyPupp · 05-18-2009, 03:57 AM

You admit that you were going 35, then 50 right after the turn, onto a dark single lane street. What exactly are you planning on disputing? You were driving like an ass, take this as a lesson and be more careful next time

underscore · 05-18-2009, 04:05 AM

it was dark out yes, but the road was well lit with streetlamps as it is downtown. I took a left turn through an intersection which had me cross two lanes so it was a wide turn. I entered the turn at roughly 35 and exited at roughly the legal speed of 50. this all took place at the edge of downtown, and on the opposite side of downtown from the clubs, meaning that there is rarely anyone around there at night, and when all this occurred there was noone in sight. how is that driving like an ass?

edit: and I was planning on disputing the fact that (in my opinion) the ticket I received does not match any sort realistic violation. if someone is driving "too fast" wouldn't that go under speeding?

skidmark · 05-18-2009, 08:09 AM

Unless there is more to the story than what you related, I don't think that there is much promise of a conviction on this.

c00per · 05-18-2009, 10:42 PM

I understand how you feel as I just got a ticket, although the situation is different. I won't say you are right or wrong since I don't know all the traffic laws. But if the cop is going to ticket someone, they will have any reason ready to ticket them.

InvisibleSoul · 05-19-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidmark

Unless there is more to the story than what you related, I don't think that there is much promise of a conviction on this.

Why not? The way the statement is written, it's totally subjective. If the officer thinks you weren't driving with reasonable consideration, then isn't that it? You may disagree with his idea of what reasonable consideration is, but wouldn't the judge side with the officer over the civilian?

I mean, I had a similarly subjective ticket... "unnecessary noise". It was also because I took a curve quicker than the average person. It was an onramp to the highway, and the officer claims my tires made noise - not high pitched tire squeal, but low pitched rubber gripping noise. The act specifically says the noise must be unnecessary AND loud... but obviously it's totally subjective. If the officer heard it, he can claim it's "loud", even though there's no definition of what "loud" actually is. There is no way in hell I would agree that the tire noise I made was "loud", but the judge still wouldn't throw the ticket out. He just reduced it.

Gu3s5 · 05-19-2009, 01:50 AM

how do u not realize right away that u just turned into a one way street?

moomooCow · 05-19-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gu3s5

how do u not realize right away that u just turned into a one way street?

Turning onto a one way street does not mean he turned into on coming traffic.

Presto · 05-19-2009, 07:57 AM

I had a similar situation. I was driving around Langley, around the Costco area. I pull a fast right turn. Perfect execution. Zero tire-squealing. Total control. Just a bit on the fast side. Cop sees me, and pulls me over. He gives me a similar speech about not seeing jaywalkers, and possibly hitting stupid pedestrians. Rather than try to explain that I had a clear view of what was after my turn, and I was in full control of the vehicle, I just agreed completely with what he said, and he let me go. I would've disputed if he did decide to ticket me, but that rarely happens.

Gu3s5 · 05-19-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moomoocow

Turning onto a one way street does not mean he turned into on coming traffic.

i don't know about you, but unless you're drunk or high, its pretty hard to miss the cars all parked facing u and no middle yellow line. then again there are ppl out there that don't deserve their license in the first place.

underscore · 05-19-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidmark

Unless there is more to the story than what you related, I don't think that there is much promise of a conviction on this.

I don't believe so. I was typing it early in the morning so I may have missed a bit but its basically the same as Presto's story only a left turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gu3s5

how do u not realize right away that u just turned into a one way street?

I knew it was a one way, technically at that intersection I could turn either way as thats where it becomes a one way, but that's beside the point. My ticket had nothing to do with which direction I was headed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Presto

I had a similar situation. I was driving around Langley, around the Costco area. I pull a fast right turn. Perfect execution. Zero tire-squealing. Total control. Just a bit on the fast side. Cop sees me, and pulls me over. He gives me a similar speech about not seeing jaywalkers, and possibly hitting stupid pedestrians. Rather than try to explain that I had a clear view of what was after my turn, and I was in full control of the vehicle, I just agreed completely with what he said, and he let me go. I would've disputed if he did decide to ticket me, but that rarely happens.

That's what I tried to do, but I could tell he had it set in his mind he was gonna give me a ticket right away.

Oddly enough too the officers partner was standing by my passenger door the entire time, just looking in the window at my passengers. Not sure what that was about.

skidmark · 05-19-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

Why not? The way the statement is written, it's totally subjective. If the officer thinks you weren't driving with reasonable consideration, then isn't that it? You may disagree with his idea of what reasonable consideration is, but wouldn't the judge side with the officer over the civilian?

The term "reasonable consideration" is defined by case law on the subject, not the officer's opinion. Their observation of the incident must meet the requirements in order to obtain the conviction. It is not a matter of the justice taking the officer's opinion.

moomooCow · 05-19-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gu3s5

i don't know about you, but unless you're drunk or high, its pretty hard to miss the cars all parked facing u and no middle yellow line. then again there are ppl out there that don't deserve their license in the first place.

I don't know about you either, but even though English is my second language I understand that the OP did not mention anything about turning into ONCOMING traffic ( ie. WRONG WAY ). He was merely stating that he turned onto a one way street and we are left to assume that it was a legal turn ( going with traffic ) because he did not mention otherwise.

sho_bc · 05-19-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by underscore

Oddly enough too the officers partner was standing by my passenger door the entire time, just looking in the window at my passengers. Not sure what that was about.

Officer safety - as the officer dealing with you is focusing his attention on you, the other one is watching what else is going on inside the car.

underscore · 05-19-2009, 09:05 PM

^ makes sense, as it was the part of downtown which is completely dead at night.

Gu3s5 · 05-19-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moomoocow

I don't know about you either, but even though English is my second language I understand that the OP did not mention anything about turning into ONCOMING traffic ( ie. WRONG WAY ). He was merely stating that he turned onto a one way street and we are left to assume that it was a legal turn ( going with traffic ) because he did not mention otherwise.

opps my bad lol.

InvisibleSoul · 05-21-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidmark

The term "reasonable consideration" is defined by case law on the subject, not the officer's opinion. Their observation of the incident must meet the requirements in order to obtain the conviction. It is not a matter of the justice taking the officer's opinion.

Is there case law on what defines "unnecessary noise" as well?