REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

taylor192 · 11-08-2009, 09:25 PM

I posted this in the Police forum, yet it might get more exposure here, I'm sure there's some condo owners who have had to deal with noise problems:

Quote:

My GF lives in a 4-story low-rise with commercial property on the lower floor. In particular a cafe directly below her.

This cafe has a license to serve alcohol and play live music. 3-4 times a week the music is so loud it can be heard by all residents of the 2nd floor, yet especially loud in her condo.

From everything we've looked up, this cafe should not be allowed to play amplified music with more than 2 performers. If they have a license to do so, it should be reviewed.

She has spoken to the cafe and they are firmly holding onto their right to play music as defined in their license.

She has filed formal complaints (twice) with Bylaw services, and was recommended to call the non-emergency police number when the music was too loud and an officer would be dispatched to measure the level. She has called 3 times, and an officer has failed to show prior to 11pm when the cafe closes.

She's kinda stuck with what to do next and need some advice from anyone in Bylaw or the police.
- She would like someone to review their license to determine if they are allowed to have live bands (more than 2 performers) play amplified music. How would she initiate this review?
- She would like an officer to come measure the noise level, in particular when a live band is playing. How can she ensure this will happen?

Advice as to what to do next?

Please keep the replies serious. I've already suggested tons of "revenge" ideas, yet she prefers to take legal action.

static · 11-08-2009, 09:36 PM

is there a strata of the building that handles stuff like this ? did she live there and then the cafe moved in or vice versa...if it was already there i imagine it'd be harder to complain.

El Bastardo · 11-08-2009, 09:39 PM

The strata may only handle residential affairs, but they may have a liaison to the commercial leases in the building. Its a good place to start, seeing that all other avenues have been exhausted.

taylor192 · 11-08-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

The strata may only handle residential affairs, but they may have a liaison to the commercial leases in the building. Its a good place to start, seeing that all other avenues have been exhausted.

The former strata president used to live above the cafe and had negotiated reduced noise levels without the strata intervening. She moved into his condo at the same time the cafe was sold. The new owners of the cafe are not willing to deal with her, so she is bringing this up before the strata, and has the support of most on her floor.

I suggested this cause the strata has the ability to fine the cafe for noise, regardless if bylaw or police will not deal with this.

The real issue is how this cafe has a class 2 license to play live amplified music while being in a condo building. This should have never been allowed according to everything we've looked up.

InvisibleSoul · 11-08-2009, 10:25 PM

Wow, that's a pretty shitty situation to be in.

Inaii · 11-08-2009, 10:56 PM

I live above a pub and across from a cafe that has open mic nights 3 times a week. Suck it up or move. nothing is going to change.

Vansterdam · 11-09-2009, 06:13 AM

^ must be so shitty yet sweet at the same time

StylinRed · 11-09-2009, 06:32 AM

if they close at 11pm wouldnt that be within reason then ? as in not breaking any sound violation

Inaii · 11-09-2009, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vansterdam

^ must be so shitty yet sweet at the same time

god no. the cafe is a bunch of hipsters who can't sing for shit; and the pub is overpriced and rowdy.

simsimi1004 · 11-09-2009, 06:52 AM

11pm doesnt sound too bad... its borderline..

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StylinRed

if they close at 11pm wouldnt that be within reason then ? as in not breaking any sound violation

Technically they are breaking the rules, cause restaurants are unable to get class 2 licenses inside a condo building. This cafe moved into the building and has somehow been grandfathered in.

Moreso, lookup the noise bylaw. It only takes a reading of 45 dB to break the noise bylaw. That's less than a normal conversation, yet that's the point, you should not be making so much noise to affect normal life in adjacent suites.

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simsimi1004

11pm doesnt sound too bad... its borderline..

Not when your 7yo goes to bed at 8:30.

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inaii

I live above a pub and across from a cafe that has open mic nights 3 times a week. Suck it up or move. nothing is going to change.

First I asked for serious replies.

Suck it up and move is nice, until you consider the 6% fee for selling, $1K lawyer fees, and associated moving costs. The previous cafe owners had a mutual agreement that allowed them to play music at a level that was acceptable, and that was the expectation moving into the unit.

Second, google this. You'll find many businesses along Main st have had their licenses reviewed and revoked for noise. Live amplified bands are not usually permitted in heavy residential areas. Problem is, I cannot find how the residents were able to initiate this.

Third, revenge will be sweet if Bylaw or the police do not intervene. We are going to see if the cafe patrons like listening to death metal.

adambomb · 11-09-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192

Not when your 7yo goes to bed at 8:30.

I understand what your getting at. But I don't see how its the cafe's responsibilty to ensure that your child is able to fall asleep at 830pm. The cafe has rent to pay and food costs to cover. Are you willing to pay a portion of that so they can close at a reasonable hour for your child's bedtime?
How about the fact that this live band night probably generates a lot of revenue for the cafe. Yes, the cafe owner should be a good neighbour...but put yourself in the shoes of the cafe owner. Are you going to turn away paying customers so the residents above your business who aren't paying anything can have a what they want, meanwhile your business and your bottom line suffers? I mean you've considered the costs of you moving. How about considering the costs of a failing business?

First rule of business. Give the customer what they want. The customers want live music and they want it loud and they want coffee at the same time. You like deathmetal, would you go to a venue that played deathmetal at a low decibles?

quasi · 11-09-2009, 08:11 AM

I'd try calling the police non emergency line earlier so they show up well they are still making noise, get a police report. I really don't know the legalities of it but to all the people saying the cafe has a right to play music the person living above the cafe has a right to a reasonable level of noise in their unit. If it continues I'd start recording it with a video camera and also use a decibel meter to prove the level of noise. I'd then sue them, win or lose it would be annoyance for them to get dragged into court. If that failed I'd do what you suggested and start playing my music even louder except it wouldn't be music it would be porno and I'd have a sub that fired at the floor.

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adambomb

I understand what your getting at. But I don't see how its the cafe's responsibilty to ensure that your child is able to fall asleep at 830pm.

It will become the cafe's responsibility once we find out how to have the cafe's license reviewed. I have found threads online of restaurant owners that have had to pay our huge legal fees when their licenses were contested, only to have them revoked.

My parents have run many businesses, so please don't lecture me on what rights a business owner has. If the business in in conflict with its neighbours, it will eventually lose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adambomb

The cafe has rent to pay and food costs to cover. Are you willing to pay a portion of that so they can close at a reasonable hour for your child's bedtime?

Perhaps you missed the post where I stated the previous cafe owners had been able to agree to a mutually beneficial solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adambomb

How about the fact that this live band night probably generates a lot of revenue for the cafe. Yes, the cafe owner should be a good neighbour...but put yourself in the shoes of the cafe owner. Are you going to turn away paying customers so the residents above your business who aren't paying anything can have a what they want, meanwhile your business and your bottom line suffers? I mean you've considered the costs of you moving. How about considering the costs of a failing business?

I put myself in the cafe owner's shoes, now you can. As an owner are you willing to deal with police possibly showing up? possibly being fined? possibly having to legally defend your license? and all the associated costs?

Are you willing to deal with angry neighbours? patrons being harassed as they leave your establishment? Your own quiet cafe being subjected to the same noise during the day, as she's subjected to at night?

If I lived there, I would be pursuing all these options. Next step would be to blast annoying bass during the live performances, ruining the night for the patrons. The cafe would be stuck between rock and hard place, they cannot call bylaw cause they would be found in violation too. I would sit on a patio chair outside their establishment in protest and tell off all their clients. Customers are finicky, they don't like going somewhere they are not going to feel safe entering/leaving.

So please, save the sob stories about the cafe and its rights. I have a right to do all the above too, yet there's no need for it to degenerate that far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adambomb

First rule of business. Give the customer what they want. The customers want live music and they want it loud and they want coffee at the same time. You like deathmetal, would you go to a venue that played deathmetal at a low decibles?

You have obviously never run a business before. The customer is not always right, its a myth.

adambomb · 11-09-2009, 09:06 AM

Does shouting insults at patrons and playing deathmetal with the bass pointed downwards to the cafe make you a better neighbour or worse? Are you fixing your problem or making it worse for everybody around you?

How do the other residents feel about a potential battle between the cafe music and deathmetal every night? Do you think your strata council will allow this and not fine you? Will you continue this battle past 830pm? Are you going to make your child go to sleep listeing to the battle of deathmetal and cafe music?

You want the cafe to be a good neighbour, yet your revenge solutions make you just as bad as a neighbour as the cafe owners.

Dan_Guy · 11-09-2009, 09:19 AM

your best bet

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adambomb

Does shouting insults at patrons and playing deathmetal with the bass pointed downwards to the cafe make you a better neighbour or worse? Are you fixing your problem or making it worse for everybody around you?

How do the other residents feel about a potential battle between the cafe music and deathmetal every night? Do you think your strata council will allow this and not fine you? Will you continue this battle past 830pm? Are you going to make your child go to sleep listeing to the battle of deathmetal and cafe music?

You want the cafe to be a good neighbour, yet your revenge solutions make you just as bad as a neighbour as the cafe owners.

I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192

Please keep the replies serious. I've already suggested tons of "revenge" ideas, yet she prefers to take legal action.

Yet to answer your questions:
1. If the strata is not able to fine the cafe, why would it beable to fine her?
2. No action would be taken without the knowledge of the neighbours. There support is needed.
3. She shares custody of her child, so these revenge antics can take place on nights her child is sleeping at her dad's.
4. This battle would continue till 10:45pm, when the cafe stops playing music.
5. This does make me as bad as the cafe, yet IMHO that is fair. If she can tolerate noise, so can the cafe.
6. The cafe owner has stuck to his legal rights and is not willing to be a nice neighbour. Respect is returned, likewise no respect is equally returned.
7. This would be making a similar problem for the cafe patrons, and putting the cafe owner in the same position wishing to resolve it.
8. Shouting insults might be too much, yet the manager of the cafe did not think so when he shouted insults when she went to ask to turn the music down. So we'll take it as shouting insults at patrons is accepted behaviour for this cafe.

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_Guy

your best bet

I agree with you. In my condo my bedroom shares a wall with the TV. Rather than force my roommate to listen to the TV at really low volume, or to drastically change the arrangement of our condo, I sleep with ear plugs.

This has become more a battle of respect than noise. The cafe owner could just turn everything down a notch and life would be fine as it was with the previous owner. Instead the cafe owner wishes to act like a jerk, so he has a battle looming, and one he cannot win.

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 09:42 AM

Here's the technical details:

Her area is zoned C-2, which includes:

Quote:

2.2.S [Service]
- Restaurant - Class 1.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/BYLAWS/zoning/c-2.pdf

A Class-1 restaurant cannot play amplified music, only have 2 live performers, and cannot offer customer participation (ie open mic).

However a Class-2 restaurant can be approved:

Quote:

3.2.S [Service]
- Restaurant - Class 2.

Provided that:

Quote:

4.15 Acoustics
4.15.1 A development permit application for dwelling uses shall require evidence in the form of a report and recommendations prepared by persons trained in acoustics and current techniques of noise measurement, demonstrating that the noise levels in those portions of the dwelling units
listed below shall not exceed the noise levels expressed in decibels set opposite such portions of the dwelling units. For the purposes of this section, the noise level is the A-weighted 24-hour equivalent (Leq) sound level and will be defined simply as the noise level in decibels.

Portions of dwelling units Noise levels (Decibels)
bedrooms 35
living, dining, recreation rooms 40
kitchen, bathrooms, hallways 45

Basically if the noise is about 40dB in her living room, the restaurant is violating the bylaw. To put that into perspective:
30 dB - whisper
60 dB - conversation

EmperorIS · 11-09-2009, 10:17 AM

at least you don't have a metal plate hanging on your neighbor's balcony

Ferra · 11-09-2009, 11:56 AM

not trying to be an ass here, but aren't u the guy who supported the the idea of critical mass?

Well, I guess now you know how it feels like when others build their entertainment at the expense of your inconveneince.
(And the bar at least helps support the local economy and families, and they are doing it legally)

taylor192 · 11-09-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferra

not trying to be an ass here, but aren't u the guy who supported the the idea of critical mass?

Well, I guess now you know how it feels like when others build their entertainment at the expense of your inconveneince.
(And the bar at least helps support the local economy and families, and they are doing it legally)

You are being an ass, just trying to pretend like you aren't.

I have stated that Critical Mass should be confined to a predetermined path like an organized protest. I support what they are trying to accomplish, yet not exactly the way they do it.

As you'll note, I have stated several revenge ideas. All would be similar to Critical Mass, in that I could inconvenience the cafe in protest. She would prefer not to go this route.

Lastly, you're incorrect about legally. The noise easily registers above 40 dB, and that is in violation of the zoning bylaw.