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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 11-17-2009, 10:05 PM   #1
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Just received court hearing for no "N" sign

Hey like title states I just received my court hearing for no "N" sign ...
I'm charged with motor vehicle act regulations under section 30.13
I can't seem to find any information on the internet to help me with this or
on how many points would be deducted or if my license would be suspended again... I even went into icbc to ask but they said they had no idea too

A little background from my driving records...I have been previously suspended twice before, first time for hit and run and the second time for speeding and no "N" sign, both times I admitted my guilt and suffered the consequences
o yea and both times had been for 3 months suspension period

I just want to know if I just pay the $109 fine and deemed to have plead guilty would my license be suspended again ... I know that the police probably are looking for any little excuse to get me off the streets again because of my stupid driving records when I was foolish and young
I never drive like that anymore!!!...
(money is not the issue I just want to get it over with and keep my license so I can get my class 5 )

And if paying and pleading guilty still gets me suspended i have the full story later , on what happened when I got ticketed ... I wouldn't of disputed this ticket if I felt like I was wrong
Any help greater appreciated
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:59 AM   #2
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Offence
30.13 A person commits an offence who fails to display the signs required by section 30.10 (2) or (4).

New driver sign condition for Class 7L, 8L, 7 and 8 licences
30.10 (1) In this section, new driver sign means a sign, issued by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for the purposes of this section, to indicate that a motor vehicle is being driven by a person who is learning to drive or by a novice driver.

(2) Subject to the exception set out in subsection (3), a person to whom a Class 7L or 8L licence is issued must not operate a motor vehicle of a category designated in section 30.01 (2) for that class of driver's licence unless a new driver sign depicting the letter "L" is clearly visible and prominently displayed from the rear of the motor vehicle or trailer, as the case may be.
(3) The new driver sign condition under subsection (2) does not apply in the course of the person receiving practical driver training conducted in accordance with Division 27 by a licensed driver training instructor, unless the practical driver training is being conducted in a private vehicle under section 27.09 (7).
(4) Subject to the exception set out in subsection (5), a person to whom a Class 7 or 8 licence is issued must not operate a motor vehicle of a category designated in section 30.01 (2) for that class of driver's licence unless a new driver sign depicting the letter "N" is clearly visible and prominently displayed from the rear of the motor vehicle or trailer, as the case may be.
(5) The new driver sign condition under subsection (4) does not a apply in the course of the person receiving practical driver training conducted in accordance with Division 27 by a licensed driver training instructor, unless the practical driver training is being conducted in a private vehicle under section 27.09 (7).

$109 fine, 0 points

http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing...riables._frag_
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:22 AM   #3
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Just be glad they have a section for it in the law now. When it was first introduced, you would have been charged the same way as driving without prescription glasses or other serious license limitations. That would be points and for most new drivers, and automatic suspension.

But with your priors within such a short amount of time driving, the superintendent can (and probably will) give you an arbitrary suspension.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #4
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so my license can still be suspended without any points taken off my license? i thought in order for someone to be on arbitrary suspension is correlated to points...
and would my suspension be even longer this time?
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:06 PM   #5
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You can be suspended again without having points. In your case the no N did not give you points, but as someone above mentioned the superintendent will see your driving record and most likely will and should suspend you.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:40 PM   #6
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how long would this suspension be this time?
(got 3 months for both times before)
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiebond View Post
how long would this suspension be this time?
(got 3 months for both times before)
6 months or a year.

This is the most likely outcome since suspensions are suppose to get progressively longer.
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:46 PM   #8
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Thanks for help =)... but here is the full story now of what happened that day

Sept 13 2008 at 6:36pm , approx. 23C (it was when it was when summer started to get hot) so my car was parked outside the whole day ... and before I headed to my friend's place I decided to take my removable top off (corvette coupe) to let the inside cool down because this was a black on black car . So before I left I made sure my "N" sign was clearly displayed however, I did not notice that my N sign had turned soft and flimsy (I only checked the hooks and made sure they would not fall, and not the N sign itself, the corvette back is fully plastic I have tried numerous ways to try and get it to stick on but resorted to the hooks that hung the N sign from my trunk's window)

Anyways long story short as I drove approx. 2 km I noticed a squad car following behind me but I didn't think much of it because I was driving under speed limit and had my N sign up. Then I noticed the lights started flashing ...I pulled over immediately
A young Caucasian female officer walked up kind of cautiously and asked me why she pulled me over... I did not reply right away, I turned back and saw that my N has fallen off (not the hooks) then I replied my N sign has fallen off . There was another older Asian officer with her that just stood by the squad car to make sure everything was ok. She then said Yes your N sign is not properly being displayed then walked back to the squad car. Took approx. 20 mins later and returned with a ticket ...I then asked politely if I could step out of my vehicle to show her my N sign ...she quickly responded "No" then started telling me the details of the ticket... after she finished, I again politely asked if I could step out and show her and explain that my N sign has simply fallen (Not that I don't have a N sign or I forgot to put it up, it ripped apart because of the heat and wind) . Again, she refused and said that my N sign is not clearly displayed then simply walked away!
I did not get her badge number or anything because I was at that time really confused by her actions.
It seemed like she was inexperienced ,being trained by the other officer, and wanted to prove that she could handle the situation...she also did not show any respect at all (just wanted to give me my ticket and leave)
How would I argue this in court?
What other ways can I argue in court?
Is there a way I can prove that she was inexperienced ?

I also still have the OG N sign that was used
One more thing ....on the hearing sheet it says enforcement officer's name and number ...and another detachment number (is the detachment number the female officers?)
because I did not talk to the male officer at all... and if he's the only one that shows up that would be weird

Any advice appreciated !!!
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiebond View Post
Thanks for help =)... but here is the full story now of what happened that day

Sept 13 2008 at 6:36pm , approx. 23C (it was when it was when summer started to get hot) so my car was parked outside the whole day ... and before I headed to my friend's place I decided to take my removable top off (corvette coupe) to let the inside cool down because this was a black on black car . So before I left I made sure my "N" sign was clearly displayed however, I did not notice that my N sign had turned soft and flimsy (I only checked the hooks and made sure they would not fall, and not the N sign itself, the corvette back is fully plastic I have tried numerous ways to try and get it to stick on but resorted to the hooks that hung the N sign from my trunk's window)

Anyways long story short as I drove approx. 2 km I noticed a squad car following behind me but I didn't think much of it because I was driving under speed limit and had my N sign up. Then I noticed the lights started flashing ...I pulled over immediately
A young Caucasian female officer walked up kind of cautiously and asked me why she pulled me over... I did not reply right away, I turned back and saw that my N has fallen off (not the hooks) then I replied my N sign has fallen off . There was another older Asian officer with her that just stood by the squad car to make sure everything was ok. She then said Yes your N sign is not properly being displayed then walked back to the squad car. Took approx. 20 mins later and returned with a ticket ...I then asked politely if I could step out of my vehicle to show her my N sign ...she quickly responded "No" then started telling me the details of the ticket... after she finished, I again politely asked if I could step out and show her and explain that my N sign has simply fallen (Not that I don't have a N sign or I forgot to put it up, it ripped apart because of the heat and wind) . Again, she refused and said that my N sign is not clearly displayed then simply walked away!
I did not get her badge number or anything because I was at that time really confused by her actions.
It seemed like she was inexperienced ,being trained by the other officer, and wanted to prove that she could handle the situation...she also did not show any respect at all (just wanted to give me my ticket and leave)
How would I argue this in court?
What other ways can I argue in court?
Is there a way I can prove that she was inexperienced ?

I also still have the OG N sign that was used
One more thing ....on the hearing sheet it says enforcement officer's name and number ...and another detachment number (is the detachment number the female officers?)
because I did not talk to the male officer at all... and if he's the only one that shows up that would be weird

Any advice appreciated !!!
From your story, it sounds like the ticket is valid.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:14 AM   #10
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Unfortunately, it is your responsibility to ensure that your N is properly displayed regardless what happens. The detachment would be the detachment that the officer who gave you the ticket is from. If at the hearing the female officer who gave you the ticket doesn't show up and only the other one who was with her shows up, then you can maybe argue that he wasn't the one who gave you the ticket. Dunno, but good luck with it.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:16 PM   #11
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I didn't even have the right to get out and show her? When i got pulled over before the officer made me come out and look for myself ...
I displayed absolutely no threat or harm , I even took off my sunglasses to talk to her to show her respect ...
(and obviously she couldn't do the same)
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackiebond View Post
I didn't even have the right to get out and show her? When i got pulled over before the officer made me come out and look for myself ...
I displayed absolutely no threat or harm , I even took off my sunglasses to talk to her to show her respect ...
(and obviously she couldn't do the same)
Alright, lets break it down.

Was the N sign on?

Or were only the hinges or whatever was holding the N sign?

If it is the latter, you're hooped.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by jackiebond View Post
I didn't even have the right to get out and show her? When i got pulled over before the officer made me come out and look for myself ...
I displayed absolutely no threat or harm , I even took off my sunglasses to talk to her to show her respect ...
(and obviously she couldn't do the same)
Yeah as much as she seems like a bitch, she has all the legal rights to give you that ticket. It is only a matter of if it was displayed or not displayed.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:49 AM   #14
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Police normally do not want veh.occupants walking around roadside. Dangerous for them as most Cops have had numerous close calls from target fixated or inattentive other drivers. That's how many Cops get injured or killed. I have worked with 4 Members who were hit during traffic stops. Then there is the issue of Officer safety. We don';t know who we are dealing with & it's easier to contain problems if they are confined to a vehicle. As far as the N goes...it was not clearly displayed..according to you. You could request a trial date so you could give your explanation to try for a fine reduction, or you can write in and request fine reduction with an explanation. Up to you.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:54 AM   #15
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do you happen to have a moded up car? just wondering cause i am pretty sure cops ticket the ppl with moded up cars mostly...
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:03 AM   #16
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Young kid driving a Corvette... I'd say that would attract attention.

Sounds like the OP is a winner... first hit and run... then speeding & no N displayed... no wonder they want you off the roads.
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Old 11-20-2009, 01:11 PM   #17
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I would be surprised if you didnt get a long suspension given your past indences. How long have you been driving for? why havent you received your class 5 sooner?
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:21 PM   #18
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The female officers badge number will be on your copy of the ticket if you would like to identify her and talk to her beforehand.

Unfortunately for you when a judge is making their decision on guilty vs not guilty, it is pretty black and white. Was there an N sign up in the back of the car that you were driving when the officer stopped you is the only thing they really consider when making their decision. Proving that the officer was inexperienced at the time has no bearing on you having or not having your N sign displayed. That being said, if you are found guilty the judge will allow you to explain yourself and take that into consideration when sentencing. So in your case they may lower the fine.

Also, like Zulu said, most police officers do not want the driver of a vehicle they stopped to exit the vehicle. There is the chance that the person could be hit by a car or that they could attack the officer. Most police officers will give you a chance to explain your side of the story roadside; however, not all of them will as we are not required to.
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Old 11-21-2009, 06:35 PM   #19
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wow sounds like i have absolutely no chance of winning this one ....=(
should I pay now and wait for a month before the suspension letter comes in (to get it over with faster) ? or wait until my court hearing and be able to drive for a couple months more (meaning I have to wait for longer to get my license back at the end)?
any suggestions on what I could do to reduce the suspension period ?

I have been driving for 4 years now and everytime I received a suspension my N starts all over again (have to wait for 2 years before I can take class 5)
And No, the vette was completely stock

Thanks to everyone that helped!
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Old 11-21-2009, 06:45 PM   #20
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o ya and during the 2 year watch before I can qualify for class 5 ANY ticket i get will result in a another suspension .... that is why i am still unable to get my class 5
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:28 PM   #21
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Maybe dispute the penalty in writing?
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