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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 07-09-2010, 06:04 PM   #1
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DriveSmartBC - Driving Attitude

"Haven't you got anything better to do?" This was a common response from drivers after being told that they had been stopped for a traffic rule infraction. "Why aren't you out catching real criminals?"

I'm not sure they believed me when I told them that they were more likely to suffer financial loss, physical injury or death through the operation of their motor vehicles than they were from all the other criminal actions combined. Add to this fact that motor vehicle collisions are the number one cause of death for our young people and you begin to see how thoughtless these statements really are.

What these statements really meant to me is that I was dealing with a driver that either didn't care about themselves and other road users or weren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

Ask any driver to candidly rate their driving capability and it will be rare to find someone that thinks that they are less than better than average. By definition, half of us must be less than average. So, how do we get the lower half to realize this, much less do something about it?

I wish I had that answer for you!

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Old 07-09-2010, 06:59 PM   #2
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I am guilty of having that attitude sometimes. Although I will not stop driving 60km on a 50 zone.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:34 PM   #3
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I think the problem lies with the general attitude people have with the police.
I have seen numerous times where the police pull people over, or harass someone over nothing. I have been in that situation, and I've seen others.

I know that may apply to a very small number of officers, but a few is all it takes.

I used to be a very reckless driver (when I was 18, etc) but I leearned my lesson after Seeing some of my friends die at the hands of street racers, drunk drivers, etc.

Unfortunately, sometimes ppl have to see it, and let it affect their lives before they learn.

And some ppl I used to associate with, still haven't, despite all that.

What this province lacks is also EDUCATION. Any Rick, Dick and Jane can come here and get a license with some money and a few hours time. Afterwards, it's just away with the $60000 sport car with little or no experience on how to handle them.

Our licensing program's a joke. In Finland, one has to complete a full course with a mandatory obstacle driving test before obtaining one. Here, no one teaches you what to do when your car oversteers, understeers, in wet, in snow, NOTHING. People just drive like how they see it in the movies.

All in all, I think lack of education and testing is one of the biggest problems . Educate them properly, and there would be less enforcement required later.

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Old 07-10-2010, 12:41 AM   #4
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My main problem with the police is that I always see those drivers that blow 100kph on 50 zones and people would be pulled over for doing 60 on 50 zones. Sure, the cops know that, but for that person, who just saw this reckless driver that blew by then just minutes ago, would think that the ticket is unfair. I guess this isn't the police's fault as they can't catch everyone, and nothing can be really done about it.

And the point about education... it's not exactly 'Any Rick, Dick and Jane can come here and get a license with some money and a few hours time' You do realize that the GLP is 3 years long. The testers do vary extremely on how they pass drivers, and this has to change. There was absolutely no way I pass my class 5 if I had my first examiner on my second try. I felt that I did much better on the first try, went flawlessly until an ambulance zipped across and the place I pulled over was right next to another street, so I moved over a bit but failed because I was apparently supposed to stop right there, in the middle of an intersection.
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Old 07-10-2010, 04:26 PM   #5
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And the point about education... it's not exactly 'Any Rick, Dick and Jane can come here and get a license with some money and a few hours time' You do realize that the GLP is 3 years long. The testers do vary extremely on how they pass drivers, and this has to change. There was absolutely no way I pass my class 5 if I had my first examiner on my second try. I felt that I did much better on the first try, went flawlessly until an ambulance zipped across and the place I pulled over was right next to another street, so I moved over a bit but failed because I was apparently supposed to stop right there, in the middle of an intersection.
GLP or not, Rick, Dick and Jane who did get their licence after paying a fee and spending a few hours learning to pass the test 30 years ago are much more likely to influence their new-driver offspring than any qualified driving instructor. Not only are poor skills passed along but so is the poor attitude.

Poor attitudes = sloppy driving.

Reality is that if attitude on the roads is to change, the police need to target their enfrocement efforts on the specific technical failures that are the result of having a sloppy attitude to driving.

Sloppy driving is an act of performing a technical task (making a lane change, failing to signal, going too fast in a corner, etc...) poorly and without thought and planning.

Making a right-hand turn into the furthest lane without any turn signals is a perfect example of sloppy driving resulting from having a poor driving attitude. I wonder how the number of tickets written for that stacks up to the 211,000 speeding tickets written in 2005.
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Old 07-10-2010, 10:04 PM   #6
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Most non-freeway traffic sections focus more on intersection-type infractions (such as your example of turning into the wrong lane) than speeding infractions.
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Old 07-10-2010, 11:35 PM   #7
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Most non-freeway traffic sections focus more on intersection-type infractions (such as your example of turning into the wrong lane) than speeding infractions.
You have me intrigued. I'll be emailing ICBC next week to see how many tickets for failing to turn into the nearest lane are issued.
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:08 AM   #8
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.

And the point about education... it's not exactly 'Any Rick, Dick and Jane can come here and get a license with some money and a few hours time' You do realize that the GLP is 3 years long. .
I can understand that, but seriously, in those 3 years, I see and know very few ppl that actually follow the law with it.
3 years doesn't educate ppl. They drive more, but they still don't learn WHY they should not be speeding. My license test was simple. At the time I was still a snot nosed kid speeding everywhere, but still passed my test 'cuz I knew what to do to pass it. As soon as I got it, it's off to the races I went.

Again, one of the biggest things that our licensing system fails to address is "what to do in what situations". It completely fails our new drivers on that aspect. Every young kid with a decent car and a N are going to think they're Michael fucking Schumacher. I see so much of it.

Young driver's has a good program, but it's sometiems just too much money for some people.

Honestly,
I think the GLP's a freakin joke.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:50 AM   #9
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You're right, it is a complete joke. I don't see how much can be done about it either. Try driving around town in 50 km/h ALL DAY LONG. Not only you'll see that you could probably run faster, there will be people honking at you and passing by from left to right. If you wanna stop the young drivers from going the usual 60-70, then you gotta stop the older generations from 'pressuring' them. The posted speed limits are a joke in themselves as well. Some highways are 80, the exit is 30-50, and the city blocks are plain too slow. I wonder why Canada couldn't just realize that they messed up and make it 60.

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Old 07-11-2010, 12:01 PM   #10
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^ I agree partially.

I find it funny when if you drive 10-15 over the posted limit, people rage that "N" drivers drive way to fast, however if you stick exactly to the posted limit, people rage that "N" drivers drive way too slow.

A while back I wanted to mount my video camera in my car facing backwards, and tape peoples reaction when I follow the rules of the road perfectly.

I'm not saying I don't follow the rules of the road most times, but if I were to do it always while driving I would be shot or rear ended lol
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:25 PM   #11
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I think the green N should be taken away.

I think the presence of the N helps to reinforce the attitude many young drivers have, the "I'm young, invincible, don't give a crap about what others think" attitude that leads them to do stupid things on the road.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:47 PM   #12
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You guys think it's bad here? Saskatchewan's ssection of the no.1 hwy goes from 110/100kph to 80/90kph through the WHOLE province.

Worst part of my roadtrip LOL
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:55 PM   #13
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You guys think it's bad here? Saskatchewan's ssection of the no.1 hwy goes from 110/100kph to 80/90kph through the WHOLE province.

Worst part of my roadtrip LOL
Setting aside the fact that people want to drive faster than 110km/hr, we have an extreme amount of land covered by mostly straight highways.

You want to influence attitude? Don't give people a reason to get frustrated while driving. Setting better speed limits takes causes the driver to focus less on getting frustrated and more on the task of driving. Higher speeds require more concentration and therefore drivers concentrate more on the act of driving.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:42 PM   #14
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GLP is a joke.

My wife's a roadstar with an "N". Yes she's had her "N" for over 10 years, she has never bothered to take the second road test.

Don't you think it's a bit of a joke that she's an "New driver" with over 10 years of driving experience under her belt? I sure as hell do. All ICBC wants is the extra $50 out of her pocket.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:56 PM   #15
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I'm fine with the GLP. It encourages new drivers to maintain a safe, professional attitude towards driving, but the drivers who actually respond that way would most likely have that attitude regardless of being in the GLP.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:05 PM   #16
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There should be an automatic threshold of "X" amount of years after which you are eligible for full class 5 without the road test.

Like my Wife could probably go the rest of her life without upgrading to a class 5. It really doesn't give her much added benefit.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:15 PM   #17
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Actually, it does. One ticket could suspend her license for 3 months. 2 years afterwards of probation. Sure that's no deal for you right? There's a reason ICBC wants to keep you in the GLP as long as they can.

And about the x amount of years, what about the people that get their licenses, but never drive afterwards?
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:16 PM   #18
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I can understand that, but seriously, in those 3 years, I see and know very few ppl that actually follow the law with it.
3 years doesn't educate ppl. They drive more, but they still don't learn WHY they should not be speeding. My license test was simple. At the time I was still a snot nosed kid speeding everywhere, but still passed my test 'cuz I knew what to do to pass it. As soon as I got it, it's off to the races I went.
You know, the highlighted bit above just clued me to the perfect analogy for the GLP program: it's not really any different than crate-training your dog not to mess in the house.

Think about it: the whole premise with crate training is that dogs don't like to soil their own beds, so you lock them in a crate during the night and when you're not directly supervising them, to force them to hold it in, and when it's time to go to the bathroom, you take them directly outside, let them do their business, and then praise them. In effect, they're not learning NOT to pee in the house; they're just learning that the place to do it is outside, by sheer repetition. As they improve, they get more freedom; if they mess up, it's back in the crate.

The GLP seems to do the same thing with new drivers: you limit their space, you let them drive under very strict conditions, and as long as they do everything right, you eventually give them more freedom; if not, you smack them down until they've learned their lesson. After a while, you end up with drivers who understand only the consequences of breaking the rules, but you haven't actually taught them HOW to drive properly.

Quote:
Again, one of the biggest things that our licensing system fails to address is "what to do in what situations". It completely fails our new drivers on that aspect. Every young kid with a decent car and a N are going to think they're Michael fucking Schumacher. I see so much of it.

Young driver's has a good program, but it's sometiems just too much money for some people.

Honestly,
I think the GLP's a freakin joke.
Really, the problem isn't the GLP itself... it's the attitude of the Powers That Be that simply slapping restrictions on NEW drivers is all it takes to turn them into GOOD drivers. Restrict the boundaries long enough, and after a while they'll just get into the habit of not stepping beyond those boundaries. THEN you relax the boundaries a bit more, and expect them not to go leaping over them (or at least, HOPE that they don't).

The GLP simply isn't enough BY ITSELF; it needs proper education to back it up. As I've noted here many times, my wife was required to take driver training in high school (in Illinois)... and she hasn't had a ticket or at-fault accident in 28 years of driving.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:30 PM   #19
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Sadly however, humans don't think like dogs. They obey just long enough so when they're given their full class 5 licence and they're not being watched as closely they go back to peeing their bed.

You hit the nail on the head. The GLP only aims to create obedient drivers. The dog may no longer pee his bed, but when faced with an unfamiliar situation he may not know how to react safely.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:37 PM   #20
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Just because your wife went 28 years free of violations or accidents, that really doesn't apply anywhere. She should just thank god about it.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:31 AM   #21
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You know, the highlighted bit above just clued me to the perfect analogy for the GLP program: it's not really any different than crate-training your dog not to mess in the house.

Think about it: the whole premise with crate training is that dogs don't like to soil their own beds, so you lock them in a crate during the night and when you're not directly supervising them, to force them to hold it in, and when it's time to go to the bathroom, you take them directly outside, let them do their business, and then praise them. In effect, they're not learning NOT to pee in the house; they're just learning that the place to do it is outside, by sheer repetition. As they improve, they get more freedom; if they mess up, it's back in the crate.

The GLP seems to do the same thing with new drivers: you limit their space, you let them drive under very strict conditions, and as long as they do everything right, you eventually give them more freedom; if not, you smack them down until they've learned their lesson. After a while, you end up with drivers who understand only the consequences of breaking the rules, but you haven't actually taught them HOW to drive properly.


Really, the problem isn't the GLP itself... it's the attitude of the Powers That Be that simply slapping restrictions on NEW drivers is all it takes to turn them into GOOD drivers. Restrict the boundaries long enough, and after a while they'll just get into the habit of not stepping beyond those boundaries. THEN you relax the boundaries a bit more, and expect them not to go leaping over them (or at least, HOPE that they don't).

The GLP simply isn't enough BY ITSELF; it needs proper education to back it up. As I've noted here many times, my wife was required to take driver training in high school (in Illinois)... and she hasn't had a ticket or at-fault accident in 28 years of driving.
I can understand what Sound's point is. However, I think the GLP doesn't deal with new drivers ENOUGH. There's boundary restrictions yes, but there is still a lack of EDUCATION. That's why I think it's a joke. To behonest, most ppl I've seen with N's don't really follow the rules that closely. They just try to get away with more, more often. I think GLP would work a lot better if there were more education involved. IE: making it mandatory. However, cost will be an issue.

Restrictions will keep a cap on ppl, but it doesn't tell them WHY one shouldn't drive recklessly/drunk/etc.
And to be honest, most of us try to push the boundaries of everything and/or escape our own self-cause shit when we were young.

I just don't see it working that much. For example, I was at Guu twice this weekend, drinkin it up (I didn't drive. Just skytrained/taxied). And in there I see tons of patrons drinking it up too. then when I was outside smoking, I see a bunch of them take off in their cars with big N's on the back, or talking to each other on how to avoid police. I see this day in and day out, and it's quite exasperating.

While I'm sitting here, never having had a DUI or driving under the influence, wondering if I'll have a job in 2 weeks (yeah I'm a bit bitter. LOL).

I see the driving system failing, time and time again. even before my current debacle.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:59 AM   #22
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Even if you tried to have mandatory educational sessions, you think those teens would actually pay attention? They all know the consequences, high schools have speakers that come in once in a while and tell them what happens if you do this. It's just that when they have the moment to shine in their cars, they feel invincible and nothing can go wrong. I'm not convinced that education will help fix this attitude.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:02 AM   #23
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The GLP simply isn't enough BY ITSELF; it needs proper education to back it up.

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I can understand what Sound's point is. However, I think the GLP doesn't deal with new drivers ENOUGH. There's boundary restrictions yes, but there is still a lack of EDUCATION.
Isn't that what I just said?

Quote:
That's why I think it's a joke. To behonest, most ppl I've seen with N's don't really follow the rules that closely. They just try to get away with more, more often. I think GLP would work a lot better if there were more education involved. IE: making it mandatory. However, cost will be an issue.
It shouldn't be. Really, it shouldn't cost that much for ICBC and the provincial government to sponsor something as part of the regular high school curriculum, even if just to teach the proper rules of the road, which most kids will otherwise "learn" from family and friends and others who don't know the rules either.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:10 AM   #24
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Even if you tried to have mandatory educational sessions, you think those teens would actually pay attention? They all know the consequences, high schools have speakers that come in once in a while and tell them what happens if you do this. It's just that when they have the moment to shine in their cars, they feel invincible and nothing can go wrong. I'm not convinced that education will help fix this attitude.
In some, no. In others, it just might.

The problem is though, we're several generations into people who DON'T know the proper rules of the road, passing that information on down... and so you get kids getting behind the wheel, feeling invincible, and NOT knowing basic things like how to properly use roundabouts... or which lane you're supposed to turn into... or when it is or isn't legal to turn on a red light... or how to properly merge onto a highway... or how to use hand signals.

You get parents who grew up in a time when you weren't legally required to yield to buses pulling away from the curb, NOT teaching their kids that now you DO have to do that, for example.

How many people of the last THREE generations think that "Slower Traffic Keep Right" is just a suggestion? How about if you had a whole generation of new drivers who've had it drilled into them that it's A REQUIREMENT?

Even if they still choose not to follow the law, at least they'll know what it is, so they CAN make that choice, instead of obliviously puttering along in their little tin cans, pissing off drivers behind them while thinking they're entirely in the right.

No, education won't fix EVERYONE. That's no reason not to do it for the benefit of the vast majority that it WILL help.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:19 AM   #25
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Soundy: Haha oops, totally missed that part.

But you have said exactly what I've been trying to convey.
PLus, we all know too that a lot of kids driving now either don't even have a parent here to teach them, or they themselves ahve spent too little time learning/adapting to our dirving regulations and flow,
making education even MORE important. I spent the earlier years of my life driving around the lower mainland like an idiot because A) no one taught me anything B)Monkey see, monkey do. Never thought about the consequences.

Once I got my license back from a suspension (I was suspended for 3 years at 17), I took a lot more time to figure out driver habits, when and where and how, etc. But it was a pain in the ass, becuase again, no place to really go to get educated without paying a buncha bucks.


As for ICBC sponsoring these programs? Soundy's right. Now that I look back, the 100 something million they profited from last year could've been put to good use, especially on this, instead of padding the execs' wallets.
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