REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

syee · 08-12-2010, 12:14 PM

Wanted to get some opinions from people here on what you thought of this situation. Perhaps someone familiar with Employment law could chime in too?

Here's my situation:
I put in my 2 weeks notice early this month to resign from my current position. (as a result, my last day will be August 15th)

In our company, we have quarterly bonuses that are paid out each quarter. Q2 ended in July 1, and usually gets paid out at the end of the following month (usually because of the time it takes to measure and compare metrics, etc) However, after talking to my HR department, it looks like they will NOT pay out my bonus since their "guideline" (which I can't seem to find any documentation of so I'm just taking their word for it) is that I need to be working for the company at the time of payment.

Armed with this information, I then shot back and said that I'm on vacation until August 31st (which is the pay out date) and whether this would satisfy their criteria of "working" on day of payment. Apparently this too was shot down by HR.

The bonus itself is $3000 so it's a decent amount, but after taxes, I really don't know whether it's worth pursuing legal representation for this. Also, I don't want to burn my bridges at this company since they have treated me very well during the 12 years I worked there. However, I do think it's unfair that they deny me the bonus as I did work that particular quarter and met their criteria - I feel it should be paid out to me regardless of whether I am leaving the company or staying. The only way I can get paid out according to HR is that I work the remaining 2 weeks until the 31st. (no vacation days used in between) Unfortunately, that's not an option since I've already committed to starting on the 16th with my new job.

So...for the people who made it this far, what do you think of this situation? Should I let it go or should I consider burning my bridges, lawyering up and getting the bonus?

valent|n0 · 08-12-2010, 12:25 PM

$3000 is a lot of money

But I would let it go. not worth the hassle

you sounds like u''re doing well in the financial dept, got a pretty good job
why go ahead with trouble when you don't need it in the first place

syee · 08-12-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valent|n0

$3000 is a lot of money

But I would let it go. not worth the hassle

you sounds like u''re doing well in the financial dept, got a pretty good job
why go ahead with trouble when you don't need it in the first place

That's my thought too. I certainly don't want to burn my bridges or do anything negative because they have done well by me in the past. However, I do think what they are doing is pretty shady - if I hadn't worked that quarter or had quit during that quarter, it's one thing, but I did work the entire time and to be denied the bonus just because I'm not here on payout day doesn't sit well with me. I think it's more the principal more than anything.

TheNewGirl · 08-12-2010, 01:00 PM

From the stance of the legal code it really depends what the bonus is for. If it's based on your personal preformance (such as a commission for yourself or your department) you're entitled to it. If it's is a 'perk' for employees, you are not.

You could can call the government and inquire as to which your bonus qualifies as if you're unsure.

The first stage of filing a complaint over these things is free, you can go into arbitration which is handled via the department of employment standards. This can be a lengthy process though and will ONLY be accessible if your employer is in violation to the employment code. (it also may damage your relationship with your former employer which may be bad if you want their referance in the future).

Legal action though will cost you a great deal more then that. You're looking at $200+ / hour for a labour lawyer's time. This will DEFINITELY damage your relationship with your former employeer as well.

If they're not in violation of the labour code I would let it go personally.

syee · 08-12-2010, 01:08 PM

It's a performance based bonus. Not a commission but basically they have specific criteria I have to meet to be paid out this bonus. (there is some group component to it but it is mostly personal performance)

I'll have to do more research on the labour code and the documented company policy.

More than likely I think I will probably let it go though since I may need them in the future as a reference. I guess it just bugs me the way HR is handling this which was why I wanted to get some second opinions as to what people thought of the situation to make sure I'm not overreacting.

Legal action would be my last resort if I'm hard up for the money. What is even more amusing (at least to me) was that the HR person suggested I talk to my new employer to see if they will pay it out (saying that I left $X on the table at my previous company to join your company so I think you should compensate me for it). That I definitely don't agree with. Grr...I'm seriously beginning to dislike our HR team.

Lomac · 08-12-2010, 04:20 PM

Certain companies require you to work until X-date before you're eligible for a bonus payout. My company is like that; you're required to be a part of the company up to a month before the bonus is paid. Other companies have different date restrictions going up or down. You should find out what the cut off date is with yours. If the cut off date is after your last day of employment, I wouldn't bother fighting it. I'm sure if you lawyered up well enough, you'd be able to win it. But as you said you don't want to burn any bridges, your best bet would be to let it go.

syee · 08-12-2010, 04:36 PM

Yeah, their requirement was I had to be working there at the date of the bonus payout. I guess the definition of "working there" is somewhat vague since I would consider a paid vacation day as "working there" even though you're not actually doing any actual work. (which is what I offered to do since vacation would be paid out either way)

The thing is that there's no actual documentation I could find on this rule so I've had to take their word on this. I guess I'm stuck on the principle behind it. I'm just going to let it slide. I guess I was just upset with the HR folks because it just didn't seem right to do this to me (or anyone else for that matter). Rules however are rules so I'm just going to let it go and concentrate on the new job.

6793026 · 08-12-2010, 08:24 PM

YUP, i had a 4g bonus that was due but it's just too much hassle. I would have ot talk to HR, and the my manager and asked him wtf went wrong, the paper work etc... i gave up and just lived with my life.

there are going to be tons of fine print and rules and stuff.. cut your losses and never look back

goo3 · 08-13-2010, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syee

Yeah, their requirement was I had to be working there at the date of the bonus payout. I guess the definition of "working there" is somewhat vague since I would consider a paid vacation day as "working there" even though you're not actually doing any actual work. (which is what I offered to do since vacation would be paid out either way)

The thing is that there's no actual documentation I could find on this rule so I've had to take their word on this. I guess I'm stuck on the principle behind it. I'm just going to let it slide. I guess I was just upset with the HR folks because it just didn't seem right to do this to me (or anyone else for that matter). Rules however are rules so I'm just going to let it go and concentrate on the new job.

You can't start a new job while you're on 'vacation.' If you work for them, you work for no one else.

Instead of getting upset, ask HR for their documented policy. Be nice about it, obviously. It's their job to know and to cover their bases. It's probably in your employment contract if they did it properly way back when. If not, you can sue, but I wouldn't for 3K.

And the HR guy is right, you should have negotiated a later start date or got the new employer to pay. If they bend the rules for you, they have to bend it for everyone. Legally, it's probably not as simple as them doing you a favor.

syee · 08-13-2010, 08:41 AM

Thanks for the additional point of view goo3. I didn't think of it that way.

I'll ask them for their policy just to see if it's there, but at this point, I'm probably just going to let it go. Unfortunately, the new job requires me to start right away (well as soon as I can give fair notice to my company) so I didn't have much choice in the start date.

TheNewGirl · 08-13-2010, 09:38 AM

It's going to heavily depend on what documentation is in the policy. I highly recommend calling the labour code help line (they're on the provincial gov's web site) they can tell you what parts of the labour code are applicable (they will not make rulings they'll only tell you what the code says that applies to your situation). You can also ask them what steps you need to take to go into arbitration.

As someone who does payroll, I will tell you, if you go to arbitration most companies will pay you out if they can afford to, unless you leave on bad terms as arbitration usually rules in favor of the employee. It can take a fairly lengthy period of time though.

syee · 08-13-2010, 09:57 AM

I may give them a call (just so I know what the official word is). I'm not sure if it will apply to my company though as my employer isn't based in BC (Payroll comes out of New Jersey)

In any case, going to arbitration is just going to sour the leaving on good terms (which I do want to preserve for future references or job opportunities) so I'm going to avoid going that route and just forfeit the bonus.

Soundy · 08-13-2010, 10:40 AM

Can you go over HR's head? Contact someone higher up? Just state your case plainly and rationally, how you feel you're entitled to the bonus as you met the performance criteria, note how long you've been with the company, how much you appreciate them, and how you want to leave on good terms, so you don't come across as being confrontational. If you've met your bonuses before, especially if you've done so regularly, it wouldn't hurt to mention that too, to indicate how valuable you've been to them in the past.

You could point out that you're "on vacation" as far as they're concerned; there's no need to mention that you'll already be started in your new job.

syee · 08-13-2010, 10:54 AM

I do plan on contacting my manager about this (just so they know what happened), but in terms of the HR hierarchy, it's been run up the ladder in HR as my current HR contact is new to the company and had to ask her superiors about how we handle this situation. Therefore, the HR ladder has already been run up to (almost) the top.

Unfortunately, I also already told them that I committed to starting on the 16th so I effectively shot myself in the foot in regards to them knowing my new job starting date.

I do want to however get my point across that one shouldn't be penalized for not being around on payment date when they did the work and met the criteria for the entire quarter. Even if I don't get the money, at least they'll know I wasn't impressed with this fact and maybe evaluate the fairness of their rules. I'll have to do this in a very PC way though so that I don't step on any toes too hard.

I honestly equate this to someone doing a job and setting their last day as a few days before payday. Is it right to not pay them for the time they worked since the last payday to the day they quit just because they quit before the next pay day? It just seems wrong to me...

Soundy · 08-13-2010, 11:22 AM

Well, I think the previous advice is best: talk to Employment Standards (not Labour Relations, unless it's a union job), find out their take on it, maybe get a link for the exact section of the Act that applies, and if possible, an email from the person you talk to, outlining their position (assuming it falls in your favor). Present all that to HR, but of course, in a rational, factual, non-confrontational way.

My experience, larger companies are quick to comply with local employment law, as it's not worth their time to debate with the ESB, especially since they know they'll rarely win that argument. I did work for a smaller company once that tried to buck the ESB, and wound up on the VERY short end of that stick.

goo3 · 08-13-2010, 10:22 PM

I don't want to look it up, but I have a feeling bonuses don't fall into the same category as wages owed under Employment Standards. It that's true, they're not obligated by law to pay you unless they screwed something up.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with
1) digging to make sure they're following laws/their policy correctly
2) making your case for why you think they should change it because it's unfair
3) persuading them to pay it to you anyway for good service

You're not the first person leaving a company to do any of these things. Just be respectful of the fact that they may actually be right and are not out to screw you.