DriveSmartBC - Blowing a Warn

[sho_bc]

The thing that puzzles me is that the 215 suspension with between .05 and .08 has existed for decades. The only reason that people are getting upset now is that there finally are some real penalties attached to it. I issued hundreds of 215's over the years and people were normally happy to get one instead of blowing over .08 and going back for a breathalizer test...now, all of a sudden, this is an assult on our civil rights?

This has had me puzzled as well. My father was part of this group as well, and seemed afronted when I explained that the BC legal limit of .05 has been around for ages and the only thing that's changed has been the punishment. He had no clue that that law even existed previously.
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[baggdis300]

Originally Posted by gars

If you did the math, and calculated how many people would take transit, Translink would lose a decent amount of money. If you've ever taken a night bus at night, you can see that even those are pretty empty - I wouldn't expect Skytrains to be much fuller, and those take quite a few more resources to run.

Maybe i'm just biased. I came back from London - where the last tube can be as early as 11:45 at some stations. Sure - the night bus is quite substantial, but considering how sprawled the city is, it took me 2 hours to get home once - which I guess is better than a £30 cab ride home.

are you kidding me?

hav eyou been downtown in the early morning on the weekends? people are littertly lined up waiting for the first skytrain in the morning becaues they missed the last train at 1.30 am so they have to wait until 5 am to catch the first one...

[sho_bc]

Zulu, you got the short end of the stick on your training. They gave us beer. Sure, it was in the tiniest of cap-sized cups, but it was beer all the same!

[zulutango]

Being a non-drinker, I got my pleasure, as a D.D., from over charging the drunks who volunteered for the free beer. ..and I had minty-fresh breath to boot!

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

Now that 0.05 is the flavour of the month, and this weekend being prime example, there is an increased police presence and the chance of hitting a road check appears to be higher than before. Heck, this past monday at 1am, I stopped at a road check going up SFU, something I've only seen durning Christmas time in the 3 years I've lived here.

Toronto would run DUI checks at 6am on Sat and Sun to catch people driving home that were still drunk from the night before. No-one expected this, and it caught many off-guard. Yet that's kinda the point.

So it is the flavour of the month, next month it will be something else. Pay attention to the news and you'll know what the police are targeting at any given time - ie cell phones were the flavour of the month earlier this seat, and I think we just went through seat belt safety month.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by zulutango

The thing that puzzles me is that the 215 suspension with between .05 and .08 has existed for decades. The only reason that people are getting upset now is that there finally are some real penalties attached to it. I issued hundreds of 215's over the years and people were normally happy to get one instead of blowing over .08 and going back for a breathalizer test...now, all of a sudden, this is an assult on our civil rights?

I can see why people are upset that it is now 3 days and suspension/impound is mandatory - yet I think they fail to understand they could have already lost their license and car for 1 day under the previous rules.

I have had friends get the equivalent 12 hr suspension in Ontario, as I've had to drive in to get their cars. The suspension was mandatory, yet the impound was not. So if you could find someone else to drive your car it would escape the tow yard. Like you said, they were more than happy to just get this.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Toronto would run DUI checks at 6am on Sat and Sun to catch people driving home that were still drunk from the night before. No-one expected this, and it caught many off-guard. Yet that's kinda the point.

So it is the flavour of the month, next month it will be something else. Pay attention to the news and you'll know what the police are targeting at any given time - ie cell phones were the flavour of the month earlier this seat, and I think we just went through seat belt safety month.

That's partially it. Every Christmas, we expect counter attacks looking for drunk drivers. If you head to Ditchmond, expect to get VI'd for your rice rocket. January/February was catch a cell phone user month. For the first few weeks, BT headsets were sold out everywhere. Everyone was talking about the no talking/texting while driving. Now, I constantly see people talking on their cell phones with the phone tucked between their head and shoulders while they drove. Some are even looking left and right as they drive, looking for an address or street that they are supposed to turn on. End of August and the begining of September was catch a speeder week along Hastings. The VPD were stationed infront of the PNE every day catching speeders coming down Hastings. This year, I've yet to see the drive with a passenger in the HOV lane checks. Last year, the first week of school, the police was in the same spot every day catching single occupant vehicles in the HOV lane along Hastings. Every day I got pulled in to get checked. I had a passenger but the cop couldn't tell and the fact they were catching people abusing the HOV lane, so I wasn't too upset about it.

I can imagine 3 months down the road, people will have forgotten about this and continue to speed 40+ over the limit or drive over the 0.05/0.08 BA limits.

[jasonturbo]

I honestly like that they are cracking down on drunk drivers, for you conspiracy people that think this is a cash grab... whatever I dont even care, at the end of the day its another deterent to keep people from drinking and driving.

I think there is no excuse for drinking/driving and it should be zero tolerance, you get a DUI, it should be mandatory lic. suspension for like 5 years. It's so ignorrant that people get in their vehicle drunk (when there is many other ways of getting where you "need to go", nevermind the concept of avoiding the situation alltogether) and then wind up crashing into someone else and hurting/killing them.

Let me share a quick story on why I am so anti-drinking and driving.

I work in Alberta with a bunch of fuckin retards, often times these retards go out at night to the bar (after working 12 hours) and will usually stay there between 7/8pm and 1/2am... then they will drive back to the camp/hotel. They also come into work the next day drunk from the night before, on a failry regular basis.

Well this year, we were at the time staying at a dry camp, and constantly heard complalints like "We're getting cabin fever cause there is nothing to do at night (AKA no drinking allowed) so we go to the bar, its the companys fault we drive drunk cause we cant drink at camp"... so one evening 4 of our welders were out at the bar, they drove back 2 guys in each truck (welding truck so imagine a 4000 pound+ rig/welding machine poorly bolted to the truck)... well for some reason, the truck in the front lost control (cops figure speeding/drunk) and ended up crossing the road and hitting the ditch a couple times... rolled over and ended up in the middle of the road sideways
/upside down.
So the second truck which was a little behind and according to police "racing to catch up" is going along a dimly lit road at a good clip, and doesnt even see the other truck sideways in the middle of the road and plows into him. So let me explain who got hurt and how.

Guy#1, driving the second truck, only cuts and bruises, but he was charged by the cops with a pile of different shit including assault with a motor vehicle x3, dui, etc. It should also be mentioned that the other 3 people involved are all suing the guy, and the insurance companys are also suing him. Went to jail for about a week, got released and is awaiting court, he cant make money cause he didnt have much saved and his truck is wrecked... but really the main reason he cant make money is because he is so fucked up over this whole incident and is now a pill popping suicidal mess. He has a wife, and two kids who were already of age and moved out of house. This guy is about 47

Guy #2, passenger in rear truck, when the accident happened he flew out the windshield, about 30ft, into a tree, and broke his neck, ended up in a halo for 6 months, and had multiple surgeries, also will be getting more surgery in the future. He at the time, was about to get married, and his wife was 4 months pregnant. He hasnt worked since, and only recently got the halo removed and got married. This guy is about 28

Guy #3, paseneger in first truck, its kind of hard to explain what happened to him, they were in a 2009 sierra HD 3500, it's very hard to know what fucked the truck up the most, whether it was the rolling or the collision... but it was a mess, just a ball of metal, you couldnt even tell what make the truck was, or whether it was crew cab or reg cab. This guy ended up stuck in the truck bent over at a reverse 45 with coolant from the heater core and the turbo piping sitting around his legs/back, he was still buckelled into his seat... so maybe that gives you an idea how bad the truck was messed up. He was trappped in the truck for 5 hours, they had to cut the floorpan of the truck out and lift him out with a picker truck, once out he was airlifted. Injurys were something like this, 3rd degree burns to his body (60%), some so deep they were basically to the bone on his legs, broken facial bones, broken ribs, broken legs, broken knee cap, almost lost both his legs, a bunch of his organs shut down for a while, his range of movement is fucked now from the 5 hours he spend pinned in the truck in an awkward position. He had also just got married, had one 3 year girl, just bought a house and had pretty much no money saved, this guy is about 25. Coma for like 2 weeks.

Guy #4, driver of the first truck, ended up paralyzed, and a bunch of other small shit, but the broken back is the major issue, so he'll never walk again, he is a welder so he wont be able to do that anymore. His 100k+welding rig is fucked and he still has to pay the loan out of course. He is married and had 2 kids under 6 at the time, and one more on the way which was expected in 3 weeks. He now cant make any money, has to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair and has 3 kids/mortgage and 100k of debt for a wrecked truck. Oh and in a coma for like 3 weeks.

I dont have a lot of sympathy for the guys involved, but I was lucky enough to have to contact the families, and you want to talk about people being hysterical... wow. I can't believe how selfish and iggnorant you must be to totally just say "fuck my family, I want to get drunk"... everyone single person involved has had to make serious life style changes, the wives were so pissed but so emotional and terrified at the same time, it sucks trying to tell someone something over the phone but al they can do is cry and scream and you can tactually tell its causing them physical pain because what you are telling them is so terrible.

Anyway, I used to have fairly liberal views on drinking and driving, but now I think it's just totally retarded, no one NEEDS to drink and drive so why? Why even take the chance? The people involved are all blaming the driver of the rear truck, and they basically feel that none of them were in the wrong... they all drink again, and Im sure will continue to drink and drive in the future.

And honestly all I could think the whole time was that I dont care about the 4 guys involved, I was just happy no innocent third party got caught in the mix. Idiots.

EDIT* I know this thread is about being sober enough to drive, and not sober enough to blow, i agree that there isnt a lot of harm in having a beer and then driving, but I just wish people could completely just avoid driving if they have been drinking at all. Imagine if you hit someone you know after having a couple beers, think of how bad that would mess you up knowing you hurt your friend cause you might have been a little tipsy.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

Anyway, I used to have fairly liberal views on drinking and driving, but now I think it's just totally retarded, no one NEEDS to drink and drive so why? Why even take the chance?

One segment of the Bill Good show this morning, they were talking about how the new penalties might be affecting the bar and restaurant business; whether people were drinking less, going out less, etc.

One guy phoned in with a big sob story about how getting caught and losing his car would mean losing his livelihood, blah blah blah... of course, they couldn't take a cab because it was too expensive, and so on...
was he was just LIVID because while he and his wife liked to travel now and then from Delta to downtown Vancouver to go out for dinner and drinks, now they couldn't because one or the other couldn't drink, or couldn't have more than one drink. I mean, he was almost SPITTING into the phone over this.

And all I could think was, "is your life that empty that all you can do for fun is get drunk? Is it really the end of the world that you might not be able to have booze with your dinner?"

Seriously, the fuss people are making over this is so ridiculous. Nobody NEEDS to go out and get smashed. If being three sheets to the wind is all that important to you, do it at home (it's cheaper anyway). Or go somewhere within walking distance. In short: GET THE F*** OVER YOURSELF.

And honestly all I could think the whole time was that I dont care about the 4 guys involved, I was just happy no innocent third party got caught in the mix. Idiots.

Ah, but innocent third parties ARE right in the middle of this mess: all their families. At least one of them will probably have to have his wife changing his diaper for the rest of his life. Most of the wives will probably have to find work now that the four idiots can't work anymore. Because they can't work, most will probably lose their homes. Their kids won't be able to play with their dads for a very long time, if ever.

Sounds like there are close to a dozen "innocent third parties" whose lives have been pretty much ruined by this. Anyone wanna take odds at least two of the guys will be divorced before long?

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Soundy

One guy phoned in with a big sob story about how getting caught and losing his car would mean losing his livelihood, blah blah blah... of course, they couldn't take a cab because it was too expensive, and so on...
was he was just LIVID because while he and his wife liked to travel now and then from Delta to downtown Vancouver to go out for dinner and drinks, now they couldn't because one or the other couldn't drink, or couldn't have more than one drink. I mean, he was almost SPITTING into the phone over this.

And all I could think was, "is your life that empty that all you can do for fun is get drunk? Is it really the end of the world that you might not be able to have booze with your dinner?"

Seriously, the fuss people are making over this is so ridiculous. Nobody NEEDS to go out and get smashed. If being three sheets to the wind is all that important to you, do it at home (it's cheaper anyway). Or go somewhere within walking distance. In short: GET THE F*** OVER YOURSELF.

I don't think it is about going out and getting smashed, but people are now afraid to have one drink after work. And the restaurant industry was worried about the HST...

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by Soundy

One segment of the Bill Good show this morning, they were talking about how the new penalties might be affecting the bar and restaurant business; whether people were drinking less, going out less, etc.

One guy phoned in with a big sob story about how getting caught and losing his car would mean losing his livelihood, blah blah blah... of course, they couldn't take a cab because it was too expensive, and so on...
was he was just LIVID because while he and his wife liked to travel now and then from Delta to downtown Vancouver to go out for dinner and drinks, now they couldn't because one or the other couldn't drink, or couldn't have more than one drink. I mean, he was almost SPITTING into the phone over this.

And all I could think was, "is your life that empty that all you can do for fun is get drunk? Is it really the end of the world that you might not be able to have booze with your dinner?"

Seriously, the fuss people are making over this is so ridiculous. Nobody NEEDS to go out and get smashed. If being three sheets to the wind is all that important to you, do it at home (it's cheaper anyway). Or go somewhere within walking distance. In short: GET THE F*** OVER YOURSELF.

Ah, but innocent third parties ARE right in the middle of this mess: all their families. At least one of them will probably have to have his wife changing his diaper for the rest of his life. Most of the wives will probably have to find work now that the four idiots can't work anymore. Because they can't work, most will probably lose their homes. Their kids won't be able to play with their dads for a very long time, if ever.

Sounds like there are close to a dozen "innocent third parties" whose lives have been pretty much ruined by this. Anyone wanna take odds at least two of the guys will be divorced before long?

For sure on the familys being third partys, I was just refering to anyone that was completely independent... like another motorist.

Funny thing, my GF actually works as a server at a pub and she has said that many customers are now cutting back on what they are drinking, 1-2 drinks max... kinda sketchy though cause all that tells you is that they were drinking more and driving before....

Many are also taking cabs or car pooling as they all fear being caught now much more than before... IMO the new law seems to be making people consider their actions a bit more. Thats the impression the talks I have with my GF are giving me.

Originally Posted by sebberry

I don't think it is about going out and getting smashed, but people are now afraid to have one drink after work. And the restaurant industry was worried about the HST...

Well sadly if you havent noticed there is clearly a problem with people not being able to stop after "one" drink... if people could actually moderate their drinking we wouldnt even have laws against drinking and driving, but time and time again people have proved that they dont seem to know when they truly are "good to drive" or not.

My GF thought it was going to affect business a fair bit, but so far they havent seen any decrease in sales, and she seems to be making good tips still ... but fall is always busy so who knows.

If you can afford to go out and drink, you should be able to afford a fucking cab. Honestly.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

IMO the new law seems to be making people consider their actions a bit more.

Isn't that really the whole point? People would have "just a couple after work" that would turn into three or four and they'd head for their cars without a second thought. Well, now the problem is getting the second thought it deserves.

If you can afford to go out and drink, you should be able to afford a fucking cab. Honestly.

No doubt. Two callers to Bill today complained how a cab was $80 each way for them to go drinking downtown (one lived in White Rock, the other in Delta) and how they couldn't afford that... well, cry me a river and drink somewhere closer to home. Aside from a few high-end specialty wines (which if you can afford those, a $160 round trip by taxi should just be pocket change), pubs in Delta have the exact same booze as pubs downtown.

[gars]

Originally Posted by sebberry

I don't think it is about going out and getting smashed, but people are now afraid to have one drink after work. And the restaurant industry was worried about the HST...

I know plenty of people who feel the effects after one drink. Why should they be legally allowed to drive like that?

I also know plenty of people who will tell you that they are completely fine to drive, because they don't feel anything, even after drinking a good 4 beers. The issue is that a lot of these people have no idea how their judgement and reaction times are changed after drinking alcohol. They may feel fine themselves, but if their reaction times have slowed down, it may mean the difference of whether or not you get in an accident.

What baffles me as well, is that our society doesn't even have alcohol ingrained into it as much as other societies in Europe - Germany for example. Germany is a great place to compare - because alcohol is such a big part of it's society - you can drink at 16, before you can drive at 18. Yet, if you get caught drinking and driving there, you'll have automatic suspensions much longer and costlier than what you have here.

[skidmark]

Originally Posted by sebberry

How accurate are the handheld devices? What is the chance that someone with a BAC of .04 could blow a warn?

They are +/- 10 mg%, so it is possible that someone with .04 could blow a warn.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by skidmark

They are +/- 10 mg%, so it is possible that someone with .04 could blow a warn.

Interesting. Thanks for the answer

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by Soundy

is your life that empty that all you can do for fun is get drunk? Is it really the end of the world that you might not be able to have booze with your dinner?

And that just sums up how dumb most people's attitude towards it is... they just don't think of the consequences, it's all ME ME ME...

I have had enough of idiots who drink and drive. Lock 'em all up!

[sebberry]

I'm curious as to why we didn't simply go zero tolerance.

[zulutango]

Re the Bill Good show callers...same show had an "ex-policeman" ??? call in saying that he was a big guy and now he was scared to drive because he couldn't figure out how much to drink??????? What sort of Police job did he do that he couldn't have figured that out sometime during his service??? Must have been a fake call....after hearing the bs that comes over CKNW in recent years I don't believe a single thing I hear over them. It's all about ratings and sensationalism..the messier the better.

[6793026]

we can go Zero tolerance because it would have a lot of social effects that would damage the food industry. You're telling me you can't have ONE beer during a canucks game and drive home?

You would literally see everyone being caught for drinking and driving, you would kill the food industry because no one would buy drinks and totally cut back. (It's already creating a huge issue now and alcohol sales are down already). You could have zero tolerance for everything, jail time for bubble gum, jail time for speeding, jail time for parking but this would just be stupid.

[sebberry]

But isn't that ultimately what should be achieved for best road safety?

[zulutango]

Sweden has a .02 level and fines are based on your income...I also believe that they have a mandatory 1 year in jail penalty when caught. Their country doesn't seem to have imploded under those rules? Wonder how their civilization and restraunts and bars survive ?

[Bainne]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Sweden has a .02 level and fines are based on your income...I also believe that they have a mandatory 1 year in jail penalty when caught. Their country doesn't seem to have imploded under those rules? Wonder how their civilization and restraunts and bars survive ?

Ya, have you SEEN the Swedish (and in general European) public transit?

Have you see what passes for public transit in BC?

Granted I don't live in the down core, but for me to go to a decent watering hole and watch the game, takes a good kilometer of walking, more than a half hour of waiting & riding. Not to mention, it costs me pint.

And my spot is less than 5KM away!

If you happen to be a simple middle class family, unable to afford a place in the downtown and cast out to live in Coq. Surrey (south), White rock, Delta, Langley and the rest of the Fraser Valley, you are stuck with transit that passes for mediocre at best, and heaven forbid you want to meet up with friends in a neighboring city.... If its past 9PM you can forget about that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone drinking and driving, but these strict laws are being put into place with the proper support systems to complement them. People WILL DRINK, and why shouldn't they? No they shouldn't drink and drive, but they also shouldn't have to put up with inadequate social services. In effect, people are being driven towards making poor choices, because the risk and punishment of being caught outweighs a frustrating and severely inconvenient alternative.

The current notion is to make the punishment stronger... did anyone ever think about making the better choices more enticing and accessible?

Which is exactly why countries like Sweden can take a harsher line against drinking and driving and still not have to worry about the only option for most people, being to not drink at all.

[zulutango]

To me it keeps coming back to the fact that it has been illegal in BC since the 1970's to driver/ have care & control of a vehicle with a BAC of .05...now suddenly it's a problem and the destroyer of civilization as we know it. What did those drivers who are complaining about $80 cab rides from Delta do before...drive with BAC of .05 or more? Obviously, as they are complaining that it is suddenly a problem now? They have had more than 30 years to figure out what to do. The facts are that the BAC enforcement levels have not changed and the instruments used are the same as they were 1 month ago. What has changed ? The impounding of the vehicles/ prohibition process is now for more days and fines/penalties are now being imposed for this behaviour. Penalty points and fines were being imposed before, now it just costs more to break the same laws.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by zulutango

To me it keeps coming back to the fact that it has been illegal in BC since the 1970's to driver/ have care & control of a vehicle with a BAC of .05...now suddenly it's a problem and the destroyer of civilization as we know it.

Yes, but despite all the drinking and driving counter-attack and public education... the status quo IS to drive after you've had a few. Just not too many...

Just look at our Premier, Mr. Gordon Campbell - a convicted drunk driver! And in a foreign country, no less.. and many other high-profile public figures, including many VPD/RCMP officers... and at least one police chief that I can recall in recent years.

How do you expect the 'kids' growing up these days in BC to do otherwise? Everyone else is doing it... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

That said.. If I know I'm going to be driving... I'm going to be drinking Dr. Pepper. If I'm not driving, it's drink on!

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by 6793026

we can go Zero tolerance because it would have a lot of social effects that would damage the food industry. You're telling me you can't have ONE beer during a canucks game and drive home?

During a 3 hr long hockey game I could consume at 6 beers and still be at ~0 BAC when leaving the stadium since beer sales are cut off early in the 3rd period. I would just have to pace myself to drink more earlier and less later.

For every Canucks game I take the bus. Easier, cheaper, and lets me get drunk.