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-   -   Gordon Campbell's Graph. (https://www.revscene.net/forums/629076-gordon-campbells-graph.html)

Gt-R R34 11-01-2010 12:38 PM

Gordon Campbell's Graph.
 
http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/1010...03743453.jpeg?

Quote:

One of B.C.’s leading experts on tax policy says the charts Premier Gordon Campbell used in his TV address gave such a misleading picture of tax rates in this province that, had they been turned in by his students, he would make them do the assignment over again.


“If a student did this, I would say this is deceptive, maybe intentionally deceptive,” said Jon Kesselman, an economist with Simon Fraser University’s School of Public Policy. “I would say: Fix this and resubmit.’”


James Brander, an economist with the University of B.C.’s Sauder School of Business, agreed.


“These graphs are misleading as presented,” said Brander, who, like Kesselman, has generally been supportive of the Liberals’ tax policies. “There’s this little book called How to Lie with Statistics and Chapter 1 says [to avoid lying] you shouldn’t do it this way.”


In his televised address Wednesday, Campbell announced a 15-per-cent provincial tax cut on all income up to $72,000.


To illustrate the impact of the cut, Campbell displayed two charts — one for those earning $45,000, another for those earning $70,000 — showing how much income tax someone would pay in B.C. compared to other provinces.


However, instead of using zero as the baseline, which is typical, Campbell’s chart began at the $1,000 point.


The result is that the chart makes it look like Ontario residents pay two to three times as much in taxes as those in B.C. and that Quebec residents pay a whopping six times more. In reality, while B.C.’s income taxes are significantly lower, the difference is nowhere near that big.


“This is a dreadful graph,” said Brander. “You have to be pretty sharp to figure out what’s going on here. This is a very misleading graph, absolutely.”


Kesselman said: “It looks like it was either sloppy or ... intended to exaggerate the difference, even if B.C. is the lowest.”


To make things even more confusing, the charts Campbell used in his address did not indicate he was using $1,000 as a baseline, leaving viewers with no way to measure the real difference between provinces.


Versions of the charts later uploaded to the government’s website did note $1,000 was being used as the base, but only in very tiny type.


B.C. Finance Minister Colin Hansen said in an interview Thursday his staff originally produced a series of charts that were very detailed, including the exact amount of income taxes paid in each province.


“We started with a graphic with a lot more information on it and the sense was, people aren’t going to have time to read that, so let’s unclutter the graphs and we did that,” he said.


“If you’re asking, did we deliberately put the baseline at $1,000 and then not put the number on it so we could create a false impression, that was not the intent,” he said. “The intent was to demonstrate graphically what the premier was saying verbally. And that’s that British Columbia has significantly lower income tax rates for those income brackets than other provinces.”


cskelton@vancouversun.com

TheNewGirl 11-01-2010 12:49 PM

ALL of this discussion of tax cuts is deceptive in a plethora of ways. Once again, Campbell's just trying to pull wool over the people's eyes by putting a pretty bow on a shit sandwich.

Meowjin 11-01-2010 01:37 PM

i still dont get it.

BNR32_Coupe 11-01-2010 02:02 PM

^ basically it makes other provinces look like they're paying waayyy more taxes than BC.

here's an example of when you use 950 as a base line.
http://www.k12science.org/ciesemath/misleading1.jpg

notice it seems like people are order way less hamburgers than everything else?

now when you use 0 as a baseline, you can see that the difference between the foods is comparatively less than the initial graph

taylor192 11-01-2010 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl (Post 7168139)
ALL of this discussion of tax cuts is deceptive in a plethora of ways. Once again, Campbell's just trying to pull wool over the people's eyes by putting a pretty bow on a shit sandwich.

My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that. :p

jackmeister 11-01-2010 02:31 PM

We get a tax break and people keep bitching about it? what the hell do you guys want? money falling outta the sky?

Anyone with any type of common sense will probably know that graph was exaggerated. Do people in Quebec and Manitoba really pay 6 times the tax we do? If so, our province would've been loaded with immigrants from other provinces and not only comprise of the 4million out of 33.

We have more serious issues to deal with and people are still getting held up on this, almost a week after the fact?

dutch 11-01-2010 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe (Post 7168243)
^ basically it makes other provinces look like they're paying waayyy more taxes than BC.

here's an example of when you use 950 as a base line.
http://www.k12science.org/ciesemath/misleading1.jpg

notice it seems like people are order way less hamburgers than everything else?

now when you use 0 as a baseline, you can see that the difference between the foods is comparatively less than the initial graph

thanks for posting this. This should be obvious to everybody, but its good to point out that they're trying to fool you.

shenmecar 11-01-2010 02:44 PM

maybe his graph paper was semi-logarithmic, and he forgot to label the y-axis? who knows?

Liquid_o2 11-01-2010 03:15 PM

Maybe I'm slow, but if the graph started with a $1,000 baseline instead of 0, would it make such large of a difference on the graph displayed by the Liberals? If say the baseline was $20,000 and the graph went to $45,000 then yah, I can agree that the bars would be totally off kilter.

spyker 11-01-2010 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackmeister (Post 7168285)
We get a tax break and people keep bitching about it? what the hell do you guys want? money falling outta the sky?

Anyone with any type of common sense will probably know that graph was exaggerated. Do people in Quebec and Manitoba really pay 6 times the tax we do? If so, our province would've been loaded with immigrants from other provinces and not only comprise of the 4million out of 33.

We have more serious issues to deal with and people are still getting held up on this, almost a week after the fact?

You are missing the point.

The point is,people in this province are sick and tired of being lied to.

m!chael 11-01-2010 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid_o2 (Post 7168365)
Maybe I'm slow, but if the graph started with a $1,000 baseline instead of 0, would it make such large of a difference on the graph displayed by the Liberals? If say the baseline was $20,000 and the graph went to $45,000 then yah, I can agree that the bars would be totally off kilter.

From my understanding the graph displays how much the tax payer would pay in taxes, not his wage.

taylor192 11-01-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyker (Post 7168370)
You are missing the point.

The point is,people in this province are sick and tired of being lied to.

The people of this province are missing the point - lower taxes are awesome!

seakrait 11-01-2010 07:05 PM

lower taxes from a gov't not being completely honest with its voters? i mean, it's not just about the fudging of graphs either, right?

not quite sure if that's really worth it.

besides, it's just campbell being all worried that he's sunk his Liberals with all his nonsense.

MG1 11-01-2010 07:17 PM

What people don't like is not the fact we are getting less tax. It is the fact that governments lie and deceive.

The HST is fine, as far as I 'm concerned. It's just the way they went about it that makes me want to puch Campbell in the face. That public message by numbnuts was such a suck up job. It was sickening.

BTW, the NDP are not much better. Well, they're just plain stupid. Carole James is ditsy.

Wonder why low voter turnout? Give us something/somebody worthy. I excercise my franchise, but spoil my ballot to try and send a message. I value the right to vote in a democracy. Next time, I draw a big fat cock across the ballot sheet. Seriously, these politicians promise not to do this or do that and they end up doing it anyway. FUCK YOU, GORDO!!!!

taylor192 11-02-2010 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89blkcivic (Post 7168769)
Wonder why low voter turnout? Give us something/somebody worthy.

You will not find someone worthy. Everyone has their issues, and today's popularity contest disguised as politics refuses to overlook those issues.

You're looking for a saint - unfortunately that's not the person I want handling my money.

TheNewGirl 11-02-2010 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7168272)
My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that. :p

You will pay for it eventually. Our province is in deficit. They're making radical spending cuts on all levels of the civil services currently to try and bring it in line. In short, the government can't afford to be making the cuts it's promising. Additionally the people they claim benifit the most from the cuts (namely families, as they're the hardest impacted by the HST) aren't helped by them, as families that fall under this threshold have plenty of tax credits already.

In short, you're vote's being bought. The province can not afford to sustain it's budget with the decrease in income taxes and I'm sure your MSP premiums and pay per use access to civil services will make up the differance shortly. They're just not telling you that yet.

This is the kind of tactics that made us all hate the NDP so much.

If Gordy had been SMART and honest he would have come on air, announced that he was lowering the HST to 11%, most of us would have gone 'hey I can live with that', forgiven him for being a jerk and gone back to business as usual.

JD¹³ 11-02-2010 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7168748)
The people of this province are missing the point...

You talking about people missing the point is irony at it's finest.

MG1 11-02-2010 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7169332)
You will not find someone worthy. Everyone has their issues, and today's popularity contest disguised as politics refuses to overlook those issues.

You're looking for a saint - unfortunately that's not the person I want handling my money.

Chuck Cadman came close. Good enough for me, anyways.

If he had screwed up, he'd admit it and step down.

quasi 11-02-2010 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89blkcivic (Post 7169537)
Chuck Cadman came close. Good enough for me, anyways.

If he had screwed up, he'd admit it and step down.

He was great, didn't give a fuck about the politics of it all and made decisions based on what he thought was best for his constituents. People kept voting him in even as an independent because they knew he would rep them well.

It's to bad there aren't more politicians like him.

johny 11-02-2010 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7168272)
My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that. :p

except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all.

TheKingdom2000 11-02-2010 10:13 PM

Campbell is a baus!
he's the best premier in the country and the best we've ever had.

NDP is a joke.
Liberals ftw.

even though they're douche bags sometimes... they're still better than NDP.
Only if a Conservative party came to BC.. Then that would change everything!

taylor192 11-02-2010 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD¹³ (Post 7169496)
You talking about people missing the point is irony at it's finest.

You've still failed to provide any relevant stat to support your position. I know it makes you sad inside and you have to lash out as such, yet you'd do better to educate yourself on issues than to disguise ignorance as common sense.

taylor192 11-02-2010 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johny (Post 7170478)
except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all.

Who says you have to buy? Mobility is key. Take advantage of low taxes here, when the province is deep in debt and raises taxes to pay for it, jump ship and move to the next tax advantaged area.

Meowjin 11-02-2010 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johny (Post 7170478)
except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all.

instead of complaining maybe think of ways to make more money.

CP.AR 11-03-2010 12:49 AM

NDP = crazy people on a shopping spree
Liberals = crazy people $$>everything
Conservative = crazy people saving but no improving

conclusion:

All politicians are crazy


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