| Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum. |
 | 
11-01-2010, 12:38 PM
|
#1 | | Ubereem Mod
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,070
Thanked 120 Times in 63 Posts
Failed 24 Times in 10 Posts
| Gordon Campbell's Graph.
 Quote:
One of B.C.’s leading experts on tax policy says the charts Premier Gordon Campbell used in his TV address gave such a misleading picture of tax rates in this province that, had they been turned in by his students, he would make them do the assignment over again.
“If a student did this, I would say this is deceptive, maybe intentionally deceptive,” said Jon Kesselman, an economist with Simon Fraser University’s School of Public Policy. “I would say: Fix this and resubmit.’”
James Brander, an economist with the University of B.C.’s Sauder School of Business, agreed.
“These graphs are misleading as presented,” said Brander, who, like Kesselman, has generally been supportive of the Liberals’ tax policies. “There’s this little book called How to Lie with Statistics and Chapter 1 says [to avoid lying] you shouldn’t do it this way.”
In his televised address Wednesday, Campbell announced a 15-per-cent provincial tax cut on all income up to $72,000.
To illustrate the impact of the cut, Campbell displayed two charts — one for those earning $45,000, another for those earning $70,000 — showing how much income tax someone would pay in B.C. compared to other provinces.
However, instead of using zero as the baseline, which is typical, Campbell’s chart began at the $1,000 point.
The result is that the chart makes it look like Ontario residents pay two to three times as much in taxes as those in B.C. and that Quebec residents pay a whopping six times more. In reality, while B.C.’s income taxes are significantly lower, the difference is nowhere near that big.
“This is a dreadful graph,” said Brander. “You have to be pretty sharp to figure out what’s going on here. This is a very misleading graph, absolutely.”
Kesselman said: “It looks like it was either sloppy or ... intended to exaggerate the difference, even if B.C. is the lowest.”
To make things even more confusing, the charts Campbell used in his address did not indicate he was using $1,000 as a baseline, leaving viewers with no way to measure the real difference between provinces.
Versions of the charts later uploaded to the government’s website did note $1,000 was being used as the base, but only in very tiny type.
B.C. Finance Minister Colin Hansen said in an interview Thursday his staff originally produced a series of charts that were very detailed, including the exact amount of income taxes paid in each province.
“We started with a graphic with a lot more information on it and the sense was, people aren’t going to have time to read that, so let’s unclutter the graphs and we did that,” he said.
“If you’re asking, did we deliberately put the baseline at $1,000 and then not put the number on it so we could create a false impression, that was not the intent,” he said. “The intent was to demonstrate graphically what the premier was saying verbally. And that’s that British Columbia has significantly lower income tax rates for those income brackets than other provinces.”
cskelton@vancouversun.com |
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture  sometimes I like to use kindergarten art class scissors to cut my pubes | | 
|  | |
11-01-2010, 12:49 PM
|
#2 | | Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 1,476
Thanked 522 Times in 263 Posts
Failed 102 Times in 40 Posts
|
ALL of this discussion of tax cuts is deceptive in a plethora of ways. Once again, Campbell's just trying to pull wool over the people's eyes by putting a pretty bow on a shit sandwich.
__________________
~ Just another noob looking for a clue
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 01:37 PM
|
#3 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Richmond
Posts: 12,484
Thanked 2,091 Times in 773 Posts
Failed 765 Times in 247 Posts
|
i still dont get it.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 02:02 PM
|
#4 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
Posts: 2,610
Thanked 481 Times in 168 Posts
Failed 730 Times in 91 Posts
|
^ basically it makes other provinces look like they're paying waayyy more taxes than BC.
here's an example of when you use 950 as a base line. 
notice it seems like people are order way less hamburgers than everything else?
now when you use 0 as a baseline, you can see that the difference between the foods is comparatively less than the initial graph
| |
| | | This post thanked by: | b0unce. [?], dutch, ecchiecchi, Expresso, Gilgamesh, JD¹³, Meowjin, metal, rawr, Tegra_Devil, TheNewGirl, The_AK | |
11-01-2010, 02:22 PM
|
#5 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kits/Richmond
Posts: 4,409
Thanked 1,105 Times in 540 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 222 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNewGirl ALL of this discussion of tax cuts is deceptive in a plethora of ways. Once again, Campbell's just trying to pull wool over the people's eyes by putting a pretty bow on a shit sandwich. | My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that.  | |
| | |
11-01-2010, 02:31 PM
|
#6 | | Revscene.net has a homepage?!
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,296
Thanked 522 Times in 194 Posts
Failed 87 Times in 37 Posts
|
We get a tax break and people keep bitching about it? what the hell do you guys want? money falling outta the sky?
Anyone with any type of common sense will probably know that graph was exaggerated. Do people in Quebec and Manitoba really pay 6 times the tax we do? If so, our province would've been loaded with immigrants from other provinces and not only comprise of the 4million out of 33.
We have more serious issues to deal with and people are still getting held up on this, almost a week after the fact?
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 02:41 PM
|
#7 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Abbotsford
Posts: 614
Thanked 107 Times in 23 Posts
Failed 77 Times in 9 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe ^ basically it makes other provinces look like they're paying waayyy more taxes than BC.
here's an example of when you use 950 as a base line.
notice it seems like people are order way less hamburgers than everything else?
now when you use 0 as a baseline, you can see that the difference between the foods is comparatively less than the initial graph | thanks for posting this. This should be obvious to everybody, but its good to point out that they're trying to fool you.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 02:44 PM
|
#8 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,858
Thanked 2,420 Times in 669 Posts
Failed 530 Times in 136 Posts
|
maybe his graph paper was semi-logarithmic, and he forgot to label the y-axis? who knows?
__________________
2014 Honda Civic Si | |
| | |
11-01-2010, 03:15 PM
|
#9 | | My homepage has been set to RS
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: East Van
Posts: 2,160
Thanked 854 Times in 422 Posts
Failed 22 Times in 18 Posts
|
Maybe I'm slow, but if the graph started with a $1,000 baseline instead of 0, would it make such large of a difference on the graph displayed by the Liberals? If say the baseline was $20,000 and the graph went to $45,000 then yah, I can agree that the bars would be totally off kilter.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 03:18 PM
|
#10 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lake Of Fire
Posts: 1,166
Thanked 623 Times in 252 Posts
Failed 257 Times in 119 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmeister We get a tax break and people keep bitching about it? what the hell do you guys want? money falling outta the sky?
Anyone with any type of common sense will probably know that graph was exaggerated. Do people in Quebec and Manitoba really pay 6 times the tax we do? If so, our province would've been loaded with immigrants from other provinces and not only comprise of the 4million out of 33.
We have more serious issues to deal with and people are still getting held up on this, almost a week after the fact? | You are missing the point.
The point is,people in this province are sick and tired of being lied to.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 04:13 PM
|
#11 | | Need to Seek Professional Help
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,074
Thanked 187 Times in 74 Posts
Failed 97 Times in 34 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_o2 Maybe I'm slow, but if the graph started with a $1,000 baseline instead of 0, would it make such large of a difference on the graph displayed by the Liberals? If say the baseline was $20,000 and the graph went to $45,000 then yah, I can agree that the bars would be totally off kilter. | From my understanding the graph displays how much the tax payer would pay in taxes, not his wage.
__________________
Surf, Party, Sleep.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 07:01 PM
|
#12 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kits/Richmond
Posts: 4,409
Thanked 1,105 Times in 540 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 222 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by spyker You are missing the point.
The point is,people in this province are sick and tired of being lied to. | The people of this province are missing the point - lower taxes are awesome!
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 07:05 PM
|
#13 | | SardaukarMod
Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salusa Secundus
Posts: 11,306
Thanked 485 Times in 198 Posts
Failed 15 Times in 13 Posts
|
lower taxes from a gov't not being completely honest with its voters? i mean, it's not just about the fudging of graphs either, right?
not quite sure if that's really worth it.
besides, it's just campbell being all worried that he's sunk his Liberals with all his nonsense.
| |
| | |
11-01-2010, 07:17 PM
|
#14 | | Fathered more RS members than anybody else. Who's your daddy?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 25,202
Thanked 11,831 Times in 5,078 Posts
Failed 317 Times in 203 Posts
|
What people don't like is not the fact we are getting less tax. It is the fact that governments lie and deceive.
The HST is fine, as far as I 'm concerned. It's just the way they went about it that makes me want to puch Campbell in the face. That public message by numbnuts was such a suck up job. It was sickening.
BTW, the NDP are not much better. Well, they're just plain stupid. Carole James is ditsy.
Wonder why low voter turnout? Give us something/somebody worthy. I excercise my franchise, but spoil my ballot to try and send a message. I value the right to vote in a democracy. Next time, I draw a big fat cock across the ballot sheet. Seriously, these politicians promise not to do this or do that and they end up doing it anyway. FUCK YOU, GORDO!!!!
__________________ Quote: |
"there but for the grace of god go I"
| Quote: |
Youth is, indeed, wasted on the young.
| YODO = You Only Die Once.
Dirty look from MG1 can melt steel beams.
"There must be dissonance before resolution - MG1" a musical reference.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 08:19 AM
|
#15 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kits/Richmond
Posts: 4,409
Thanked 1,105 Times in 540 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 222 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 89blkcivic Wonder why low voter turnout? Give us something/somebody worthy. | You will not find someone worthy. Everyone has their issues, and today's popularity contest disguised as politics refuses to overlook those issues.
You're looking for a saint - unfortunately that's not the person I want handling my money.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 08:42 AM
|
#16 | | Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 1,476
Thanked 522 Times in 263 Posts
Failed 102 Times in 40 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that. | You will pay for it eventually. Our province is in deficit. They're making radical spending cuts on all levels of the civil services currently to try and bring it in line. In short, the government can't afford to be making the cuts it's promising. Additionally the people they claim benifit the most from the cuts (namely families, as they're the hardest impacted by the HST) aren't helped by them, as families that fall under this threshold have plenty of tax credits already.
In short, you're vote's being bought. The province can not afford to sustain it's budget with the decrease in income taxes and I'm sure your MSP premiums and pay per use access to civil services will make up the differance shortly. They're just not telling you that yet.
This is the kind of tactics that made us all hate the NDP so much.
If Gordy had been SMART and honest he would have come on air, announced that he was lowering the HST to 11%, most of us would have gone 'hey I can live with that', forgiven him for being a jerk and gone back to business as usual.
__________________
~ Just another noob looking for a clue
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 11:06 AM
|
#17 | | I Wanna Go Fast!
Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nomadic
Posts: 5,935
Thanked 2,448 Times in 608 Posts
Failed 367 Times in 102 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 The people of this province are missing the point... | You talking about people missing the point is irony at it's finest.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 11:36 AM
|
#18 | | Fathered more RS members than anybody else. Who's your daddy?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 25,202
Thanked 11,831 Times in 5,078 Posts
Failed 317 Times in 203 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 You will not find someone worthy. Everyone has their issues, and today's popularity contest disguised as politics refuses to overlook those issues.
You're looking for a saint - unfortunately that's not the person I want handling my money. | Chuck Cadman came close. Good enough for me, anyways.
If he had screwed up, he'd admit it and step down.
__________________ Quote: |
"there but for the grace of god go I"
| Quote: |
Youth is, indeed, wasted on the young.
| YODO = You Only Die Once.
Dirty look from MG1 can melt steel beams.
"There must be dissonance before resolution - MG1" a musical reference.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 11:56 AM
|
#19 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Cloverdale
Posts: 11,612
Thanked 3,852 Times in 1,366 Posts
Failed 83 Times in 42 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 89blkcivic Chuck Cadman came close. Good enough for me, anyways.
If he had screwed up, he'd admit it and step down. | He was great, didn't give a fuck about the politics of it all and made decisions based on what he thought was best for his constituents. People kept voting him in even as an independent because they knew he would rep them well.
It's to bad there aren't more politicians like him.
__________________
“The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place... and I don´t care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently, if you let it. You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward. That´s how winning is done. Now, if you know what you worth, go out and get what you worth.” - Rocky Balboa
Last edited by quasi; 11-02-2010 at 12:43 PM.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 09:02 PM
|
#20 | | HELP ME PLS!!!
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: here
Posts: 5,793
Thanked 146 Times in 67 Posts
Failed 208 Times in 42 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 My income taxes are more than $2K lower than Ontario and will be more than $3K lower next year. I can buy a lot of tasty sandwiches with that. | except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 10:13 PM
|
#21 | | Rs has made me the woman i am today!
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Richmond
Posts: 4,457
Thanked 2,259 Times in 439 Posts
Failed 595 Times in 124 Posts
|
Campbell is a baus!
he's the best premier in the country and the best we've ever had.
NDP is a joke.
Liberals ftw.
even though they're douche bags sometimes... they're still better than NDP.
Only if a Conservative party came to BC.. Then that would change everything!
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 10:42 PM
|
#22 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kits/Richmond
Posts: 4,409
Thanked 1,105 Times in 540 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 222 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by JD¹³ You talking about people missing the point is irony at it's finest. | You've still failed to provide any relevant stat to support your position. I know it makes you sad inside and you have to lash out as such, yet you'd do better to educate yourself on issues than to disguise ignorance as common sense.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 10:43 PM
|
#23 | | Banned (ABWS)
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kits/Richmond
Posts: 4,409
Thanked 1,105 Times in 540 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 222 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by johny except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all. | Who says you have to buy? Mobility is key. Take advantage of low taxes here, when the province is deep in debt and raises taxes to pay for it, jump ship and move to the next tax advantaged area.
| |
| | |
11-02-2010, 10:44 PM
|
#24 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Richmond
Posts: 12,484
Thanked 2,091 Times in 773 Posts
Failed 765 Times in 247 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by johny except a house is 500k more in van. so actully you can't afford to eat at all. | instead of complaining maybe think of ways to make more money.
| |
| | |
11-03-2010, 12:49 AM
|
#25 | | YOU CANT CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL400
Posts: 5,871
Thanked 3,113 Times in 1,043 Posts
Failed 555 Times in 158 Posts
|
NDP = crazy people on a shopping spree
Liberals = crazy people $$>everything
Conservative = crazy people saving but no improving
conclusion:
All politicians are crazy
__________________
Where the hell am I
| |
| | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:57 AM.
|
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
