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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 01-02-2011, 10:56 AM   #1
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DriveSmartBC - What Does M+S Mean?

One would expect that the markings M+S or Mud and Snow on a tire would mean that it was designed for proper winter traction in all conditions. You might be surprised to find that it only defines a tire whose treads:
  • Have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge
  • Measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline, have a mimimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch
  • Have edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel
  • Have a contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25% based on mold dimensions

It says nothing about the tire's rubber compound and it's ability to stick to compact snow and ice. In fact, at temperatures below 7 C. it can be expected to perform just like a summer tire in these conditions.

If you are like most tire buyers, my guess is that you choose an all season tire based on the manufacturer's mileage durability claims. This means a rubber compound that stays hard and does a poorer job of sticking to compact snow and ice.

Tires with the mountain and snowflake design are rated for their ability to provide traction in winter conditions where the temperature is below 7 C. Think of them as low temperature tires and choose them over all season tires when you drive on BC's winter road environment.

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:50 PM   #2
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Some here on Revscene may be more familiar with S&M, specially on the NSFW forum.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:03 PM   #3
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:31 PM   #4
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I will agree with this. I work at a dealership, and have an immense amount of customers who cheap out, don't get snows, then either get turned back at the Koke or get in a crash 'cuz they couldn't stop. then they come back and blame our product or us not informing them.

When we go the snowfall back in november, I was driving to work (marine and vic to N.Van), I noticed that 8/10 cars on the road did NOT have properly equipped tyres. They were ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IMO, get snows, people. Much safer, much better grip. Given that so many cheapskates get tyres already at Tirerack.com, I'm pretty sure they can drop a few extra hundred bucks on proper snow tyres for their Audi A8's.


Also to prove this point, I was in Big White a few weeks ago for a Snow Cross event. We had 2 cars: a WRX on M+S all seasons, brand new, and a STI with 310WHP on Micheline X-ice Snows. My lap times were far better in the STI, despite the extra power I had to deal with. Steering was much more responsive, and easier to deal with where as the WRX was just all over the place.

GET SNOW TYRES PEOPLE. THEY HELP. IT'S NOT BULLSHIT!
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:15 PM   #5
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As an owner of a one ton diesel i have a hard time spending the money on a snow approved tire and I refuse too! I feel this is a political move that tire and insurance companies on our government. Im not saying it isnt a good idea but I feel that way. Dont get me wrong, I believe proper tire choice is critical, ive seen it when hauling 100,000+lb loads. Highway tractors that use to come haul offroad often found they were chains up way more often than us heavy haulers.

PS if I travel the highway I carry v-bar tire chains to avoid any fines as this is my understanding. If I cant climb it in my 4x4 diesel truck snow tires probably wont help me.
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #6
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What I was trying to say is, common sense should be used. If you drive a small economical car tires arent pricey to begin with so use snow tires if your area calls for them. Personally I dont think southern bc gets really any snow but thats me. Common sense isnt common so I understand the reasoning for the policy but hopefully those enforcing the laws can use their common sense as well.
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:25 PM   #7
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If I cant climb it in my 4x4 diesel truck snow tires probably wont help me.


This is the stupidest thing I've ever read in this forum. 4x4 won't help you if the tires won't grip. Neither will diesel. Neither has any effect on stopping and turning capability, and all the power in the world won't help you go if your tires just spin on the ice.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:03 PM   #8
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This is the stupidest thing I've ever read in this forum. 4x4 won't help you if the tires won't grip. Neither will diesel. Neither has any effect on stopping and turning capability, and all the power in the world won't help you go if your tires just spin on the ice.
While I realize if the tires dont grip at all, you slide. You may think having a diesel means nothing but the traction available with extra weight is very noticeable. being that my steer axle weighs over 1800kgs, when 4x4 is engaged the front grips well in extreme conditions not seen often in southern bc. Thank you for pointing out that 4x4 or diesel doesnt help with turning or stopping but it does help in turning if there is small traction available. I never mentioned anything about power so being dramatic isnt necessary.

My point is just that a having a $1600 set of everyday tires plus a winter set for another $1200 is silly. Especially when I dont mind chaining up if necessary haha.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:40 PM   #9
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You may think having a diesel means nothing but the traction available with extra weight is very noticeable.
Extra weight, huh? Why not just fill your box with bricks then? By this thinking, a semi should never need chains.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:18 PM   #10
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Extra weight, huh? Why not just fill your box with bricks then? By this thinking, a semi should never need chains.
[/QUOTE]

Well instead of bricks why not use what lots of people use, say sand bags, readily availible in areas where lots of snow is more common. being a bit dramatic soundy? but i guess ignorance is the cause. not trying to turn this into a pissing match.

and yes by that logic a semi not pulling a trailer, loaded doesnt need chains to climb way more aggressive hills than you will see on the highways. I know I have driven body jobs (semi trucks designed not to pull a trailer usually having a body on them ie. a vac truck, water truck etc) in horrible conditions without chains on. although proper speed and throttle control go a long ways.

So I have a question to you officers, if you saw a 4x4 truck with tires in excellent shape driving on the coke lets say, would you give the driver a fine? Maybe a small chat with the driver to see if they felt confident in the conditions? or fine as its the law? could the cop use some discretion? looking for feedback as im a driver who still does a lot of highway driving usually to and from northern ab to the ok valley and i dont have snowflake tires but i do carry chains
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:49 PM   #11
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So I have a question to you officers, if you saw a 4x4 truck with tires in excellent shape driving on the coke lets say, would you give the driver a fine? Maybe a small chat with the driver to see if they felt confident in the conditions?
That's actually funny... based on the proportion of trucks and SUVs you see in the ditch after every snowfall, I'd say most of them feel inordinately "confident in the conditions"... right up until they're going sideways.

That's the problem: they think 4WD makes them invincible, but they don't stop or turn any better than anyone in a Civic or Mercedes or anything else on the road with the same tires, be it FWD, RWD or AWD.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:04 PM   #12
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Lol isn't this basic grade 10 physics? more weight = more inertia = UNDERSTEER = Kablamo?
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:45 PM   #13
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I don't think zumvette made it past grade 6....
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:00 AM   #14
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That's actually funny... based on the proportion of trucks and SUVs you see in the ditch after every snowfall, I'd say most of them feel inordinately "confident in the conditions"... right up until they're going sideways.

That's the problem: they think 4WD makes them invincible, but they don't stop or turn any better than anyone in a Civic or Mercedes or anything else on the road with the same tires, be it FWD, RWD or AWD.
What Soundy said. 95% of the crashes on Mt Washington when I used to work there, were for 4x4s...the bigger the tyres, the more expensive the SUV, the greater chance they would crash.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:54 AM   #15
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While I strongly support the use of winter tires in winter conditions, even good winter tires are no match for black ice on the freeway.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:57 AM   #16
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Well, you can always go with studded tires. Still not infallible on ice, but a hulluva lot better!
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:52 PM   #17
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Lol isn't this basic grade 10 physics? more weight = more inertia = UNDERSTEER = Kablamo?
Please intelligently elaborate.

As by this logic the new gtr should handle like crap right?

Also by this "logic" 2 vechiles of the same weight but rediculously different cog have the same "understeer"
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:03 PM   #18
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What Soundy said. 95% of the crashes on Mt Washington when I used to work there, were for 4x4s...the bigger the tyres, the more expensive the SUV, the greater chance they would crash.
Now is this a fair test group? Because one could also say that 95% of the vechiles travelling that rd are suv's and trucks, so shouldnt they be involved in more crashes as its a greater probability? Its like asking people leaving a horse show if they like horses. (now maybe others will remember some of the math classes you would have taken in grade 10 on probability, test groups, etc)

Also I think we can all agree that most people behind of the wheel of a large suv arent confident drivers, good evidence of this is the f350, suburban parked sideways in a stall. Most people dont even know how to use their mirrors in these vechiles. My brothers neighbor is prime example, buddy is an "electrician" wife is a snobby ditzy woman, she drives an escalade big wheels etc, he has to turn the vechile around every night as she cant back out of the driveway.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:11 PM   #19
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Newton's First Law of Motion defines inertia as "the tendency for an object in motion to remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside source". Thus, your truck, or any vehicle, has a natural tendency to keep moving forward, unless acted upon by an outside force... for example, friction of the tires on the road. The more mass, the more force it takes to change the vehicle's direction.

Put the tires on ice... you remove (or greatly reduce) that force... and the vehicle has a natural tendency to keep going straight.

In short: that extra weight that you claim gives you better traction, actually means you have LESS control in slippery conditions, because of the greater forces acting to keep it going in a straight line.

And yes, a GT-R will handle like crap on ice, the same as your truck.

That intelligent enough for you? Or so I need to pull out the slide rule and do the math for you? I know it was over 25 years ago that I took 10th-grade physics, but AFAIK the natural laws haven't changed in that time.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:15 PM   #20
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Now is this a fair test group? Because one could also say that 95% of the vechiles travelling that rd are suv's, so shouldnt they be involved in more crashes as its a greater probability? Its like asking people leaving a horse show if they like horses. (now maybe others will remember some of the math classes you would have taken in grade 10 on probability, test groups, etc)

Also I think we can all agree that most people behind of the wheel of a large suv arent confident drivers, good evidence of this is the f350, suburban parked sideways in a stall. Most people dont even know how to use their mirrors in these vechiles. My brothers neighbor is prime example, buddy is an "electrician" wife is a snobby ditzy woman, she drives an escalade big wheels etc, he has to turn the vechile around every night as she cant back out of the driveway.
Your logic is completely out to lunch.

SUV, truck, car, 4WD, AWD, FWD, RWD... when traction is lost, they all behave the same: intertia takes them in a straight line.

The difference isn't the vehicles, it's the drivers, who think that have 4WD/AWD gives them some superior ability on the road. It's not LACK of confidence that's the problem: it's OVERconfidence that people get from the belief that a 4x4 will pull them out of any situation.

Your statements above are a textbook example. You do know what a textbook is, don't you?
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:32 PM   #21
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You do know what a textbook is, don't you?
Nope, I got my Crane Ticket from a cracker jack box. Text books werent necessary

I remember why I dont lurk on rs much.

Ill just carry my chains.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:35 PM   #22
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Nope, I got my Crane Ticket from a cracker jack box. Text books werent necessary .
Good thing too, I didnt make it past grade 6.....
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:14 AM   #23
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Thanks Soundy...I agree 100%. I have major problems with manufacturers/dealers who sell people the fairy tail that having 4 wheel driver will override the laws of physics and the loss of traction in bad weather. The worst handling vehicles in snowy road conditions that I have encountered were the pickups with oversized wheels and lift kits. Sometimes this effect was worsened by the driver's attitudes. Big wide tyres ride up on the snow and you can't steer or brake properly...small narrow ones cut thru to the base and will turn & stop better. Look at the tyres on the crew cabs that work the back woods and see what they have. Couple this with very little weight over the back wheels and you have an uncontrollable vehicle with an overconfident and misinformed driver. I used to own a 375hp El Camino that I drove in winter back east. Filled the bed level with snow & watered it until it formed an ice slab. Mounted narrow snow tyres and I was able to get around in snow. I found out very quickly that I had better park it until spring unless I did this. I know it was 2 wheel driver but it had wide tyres and no weight over the drive axle. All 4X4 does is get you going...it doesn't let you turn or stop any better than 2 wheel drive.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:10 AM   #24
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I remember why I dont lurk on rs much.
Probably safer for you than out running around in the snow in your duallie penis extension.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:11 AM   #25
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All 4X4 does is get you going...it doesn't let you turn or stop any better than 2 wheel drive.
Unless you have a diesel, then the extra weight gives you super-traction!
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