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Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 01-15-2011, 11:21 AM   #1
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Lost wallet, no license, car got towed

is there some sort of new rule that makes it law for a cop to automatically tow your car because you weren't able to provide a license. Lost wallet yesterday, pulled over today, car towed 2 cops insisting it's "illegal" to drive without a drivers license literally on you. Also got two tickets, one for "failure to provide a valid license" and other for not "providing a license"

license is fully valid not expired, just lost! all they have to do is type it in their computer and it will show all my info...


this just happened to my brother down the street, I remember over all these years over a dozen times I been pulled over in my mom's minivan without my license because I keep that in my own car, and not once did I get towed nor even receive a ticket for it, they just type my name in their computer and all the info comes up shows who i am and my license status.

is this one of those they can do it if they want too up to the cop type of things ?
or does it have something to do with the tough new drinking driving regulations perhaps ?
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:44 AM   #2
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The officers are correct, it is illegal to drive without being in possession of a valid driver's license when you are driving and producing it immediately to police on demand.

It is not correct to ticket twice for the same act of failing to produce. That is known as double jeopardy.

Your brother down the street no doubt had more than just failing to produce going on for the vehicle to be towed.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:04 PM   #3
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so you're saying it's illegal to drive without the physical license on you ? you have to have the license card with you at all times, and if it's lost or stolen you're legally not allowed to operate your vehicle ? is that what you're saying, please answer yes or no ??


and second question, well comment, if he had something "going on" (an assumption I really dont at all appreciate coming from you skidmark, I come to this police forum for cold hard facts not bs) then he would have been ticketed for it fully and his car would have been towed to the yard..... He got no other tickets aside from the two that were issued for not having the license physically on him, and on top of that the tow truck driver was instructed to tow the car to my house, I'm sitting here looking at it right through my window right now. If he was speeding he would have gotten a speeding ticket, or if he was in violation of something else he would have been ticketed for that, but he wasnt because he was doing NOTHING wrong while operating his motor vehicle.

If it's illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a physical card license, that's understandable, but it also brings up a whole other issue of why he was pulled over in the first place, obviously profiling and whoever is reading this is smart enough to realize exactly why he was pulled over *cough*young kid driving expensive bmw *cough*
anyway that's not something I wanna get into, everyone with half a brain knows that a favorite police activity is profiling, anyway gonna leave that at that.


But I'm looking at his two tickets right now, and on top of the $100 towing fee, total of 2 tickets at $300 together
first ticket is failure to display drivers license and second ticket is driving with no license

So now tell me more about this double jeopardy thing you're talking about, because he's at ICBC right now trying to clear it up with them, waiting on my word to tell him whether he should dispute one of the tickets, so after your explanation I will have a better understanding and let him know exactly what to do. And if it turns out that it IS illegal to drive without your physical license, the ticket will be paid all anger and frustration from profiling aside, the law is the law no matter how it's enforced.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-spec View Post
so you're saying it's illegal to drive without the physical license on you ? you have to have the license card with you at all times, and if it's lost or stolen you're legally not allowed to operate your vehicle ? is that what you're saying, please answer yes or no ??


and second question, well comment, if he had something "going on" (an assumption I really dont at all appreciate coming from you skidmark, I come to this police forum for cold hard facts not bs) then he would have been ticketed for it fully and his car would have been towed to the yard..... He got no other tickets aside from the two that were issued for not having the license physically on him, and on top of that the tow truck driver was instructed to tow the car to my house, I'm sitting here looking at it right through my window right now. If he was speeding he would have gotten a speeding ticket, or if he was in violation of something else he would have been ticketed for that, but he wasnt because he was doing NOTHING wrong while operating his motor vehicle.

If it's illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a physical card license, that's understandable, but it also brings up a whole other issue of why he was pulled over in the first place, obviously profiling and whoever is reading this is smart enough to realize exactly why he was pulled over *cough*young kid driving expensive bmw *cough*
anyway that's not something I wanna get into, everyone with half a brain knows that a favorite police activity is profiling, anyway gonna leave that at that.


But I'm looking at his two tickets right now, and on top of the $100 towing fee, total of 2 tickets at $300 together
first ticket is failure to display drivers license and second ticket is driving with no license

So now tell me more about this double jeopardy thing you're talking about, because he's at ICBC right now trying to clear it up with them, waiting on my word to tell him whether he should dispute one of the tickets, so after your explanation I will have a better understanding and let him know exactly what to do. And if it turns out that it IS illegal to drive without your physical license, the ticket will be paid all anger and frustration from profiling aside, the law is the law no matter how it's enforced.
Yes.

As for your second part, aren't you generalizing all police officers? I mean here you are saying how skidmark is assuming that more was going on and then you go off saying how cops go about profiling? A little bit hypocritical aren't we?

Can you post up what motor vehicle act section that was in violation? It should be on the ticket. Example, the no driver's license one should be 24(1), what is the other? Is it 33(1)? Because then they would be separate offences.

I understand that you're going through what is a stressful time but you really need to keep a level head. Going back and raging over what Skidmark posted (in good faith mind you) isn't going to help. If anything, it is going to deter anyone else from helping you.

Here is a link to the MVA:
http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bcl...eside/96318_00

Have a read of it and see if it helps.
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:15 PM   #5
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^ thanks for the link, and nah I'm not raging at anything I just let skidmark know the assumption wasn't needed nor appreciated, and not trying to argue or nothing just came in here asking for facts.

As far as hypocrisy, I was just stating a well known proven fact of life, cops profile all the time. I personally am waaaay past that already, to the point where it doesn't even anger me anymore just accept it as a fact of life.
When I got pulled over 2 years ago and had a cop call me a drug dealer to my face while I was driving to pick up my girlfriend from her hair appointment, I just laughed it off, it is what it is deal with it type a thing right.

I'll take a look at the tickets and post the info later, gotta jet right now
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:38 PM   #6
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Its a reasonable assumption. Police cannot tow your vehicle without a valid reason, that would be theft. There had to be something more going on, maybe his license was not valid, hence the 2nd ticket... what were the section numbers and exact wording for each ticket? No drivers license? $267?....
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:59 PM   #7
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I'm looking at the ticket right now, he got

No Drivers License MVA act S24 (1) $276
Failure to produce drivers license MV act S33 (1) $81



his license expires in 2012, yet the officer insisted it was already expired and not valid after she looked it up in her computer.

Ninja yea the police really didn't have a valid reason in pulling him over let alone tow the vehicle, and on top of that they directed the tow truck driver to drop vehicle off at my house, I have never in my life heard or seen that. Every case of police towing vehicles I have ever seen the car gets towed directly to the tow yard.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by G-spec View Post
I'm looking at the ticket right now, he got

No Drivers License MVA act S24 (1) $276
Failure to produce drivers license MV act S33 (1) $81



his license expires in 2012, yet the officer insisted it was already expired and not valid after she looked it up in her computer.

Ninja yea the police really didn't have a valid reason in pulling him over let alone tow the vehicle, and on top of that they directed the tow truck driver to drop vehicle off at my house, I have never in my life heard or seen that. Every case of police towing vehicles I have ever seen the car gets towed directly to the tow yard.
That would be the reason for the tow. Not having a license.

If he does have a valid license so lets say a class 5 or a class 7N, then he should be able to dispute that ticket: the 24(1) one. Luckily, that is the more serious offence. I would definitely be disputing this one and should be an easy win too if the license is valid.

As for towing to your residence, I've heard of that before. It isn't new practice either. Better towed to your house than have storage fees added on top.

Which brings up the question. If the dispute is filed and he wins the dispute, will the towing fees somehow be reimbursed? Or would this somehow be tied to the failure to produce license thing?
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:16 PM   #9
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I find this ticket confusing, and think that perhaps the person issuing it may not have much experience/knowledge with the motor vehicle act. When I pull over someone who doesn't have a valid driver's licence (lets say it expired), I will not give a ticket for failing to provide a valid drivers licence when there is no valid licence to provide. If the licence was indeed invalid/cancelled/etc for whatever reason (remembering that the Motor Vehicle Branch can cancel/suspend a licence at their discretion), that would be the reason behind the No Drivers Licence ticket and the tow.

If there is a valid licence and you simply can't produce it, then you get the S. 33(1) charge for Failing to Produce and get sent on your way.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:21 PM   #10
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He shouldn't have been driving without a license. Might be able to dispute one ticket, and as for the tow, it it's illegal to drive without a license, how do you figure he would have left the scene? I guess he could have called a friend to drive it away!
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:08 PM   #11
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First of all, do this:

make sure the license itself is VALID. Not suspended/revoked. Call ICBC just to double check.

If it IS valid. Dispute it.

As for not having it, you can dispute that too, depending on when you lost the license. If you lost it at 2am, then really, what can you do, right?

I've had this problem before, but the cop was nice enough to let me go since I've lost my wallet on a weekend, and whatnot.

Also, I THINK if you win the dispute, the tow bill and all related expenses would be reimbursed to you. Can anyone help verify that?
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:39 AM   #12
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IF he has an out of Province DL and does not produce it, then the charge should be for not having a DL...that would be your 24(1) VT. If he has a valid BD DL and did not produce it then failing to produce would be an appropriate charge...that would be the 33(1) VT. There seems to be something more to this story as I would not charge for both charges as I can't see how a 24(1) charge swould apply if he had a valid BC DL but simply did not produce it.?


OK reading back a few posts I see that the MVB computer said that the DL was expired...that would mean a no DL ticket and removal of the vehicle to prevent continuation of the offence. I would personally not have issued the fail to produce VT if the driver had an expired DL...as Skidmark said...kind of double jeopardy. I would take the MVB info over what a driver trying to escape a VT would say any day,...get lied to all the time...usual excuse is...."I left my wallet/DL at home". There have been a very few times where the MVB computer was not current..always happened when driver was from rural areas where the local Autoplan agent also handled the ICBC stuff. Was the result of them not mailing the stuff immediately to ICBC/....but that was a long time ago. ICBC can make mistakes but I can recall only 2 or 3 times of the tens of thousands of times where they were not correct. I always said that I would hold the VT until the end of my shift/for 24 hours for the driver to show up with the valid DL...and did so, but nobody ever showed up with a valid one. I would have cancelled the no DL VT on the spot and issued the fail to produce VT instead.

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Old 01-16-2011, 09:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by G-spec View Post
and second question, well comment, if he had something "going on" (an assumption I really dont at all appreciate coming from you skidmark, I come to this police forum for cold hard facts not bs) then he would have been ticketed for it fully and his car would have been towed to the yard.....
Relax, dude. Nobody's accusing anyone of anything here, just saying that having the car towed strictly for the driver not having a license is an oddity and there may be another reason for it... like say, the car not being properly insured, in which case it couldn't be left parked on the road.

Probably 90% of the "ticket" stories in here, there's more to the story than we're originally told... not usually because the poster is trying to hide something, but because there are details that were forgotten or overlooked when posting, or info that the poster just didn't think was relevant to the story.

As for being caught without carrying your license: http://www.revscene.net/forums/sebbe....html?t=629428
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Old 01-16-2011, 11:10 AM   #14
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If there is a valid licence and you simply can't produce it, then you get the S. 33(1) charge for Failing to Produce and get sent on your way.

And some folks here wonder why I complain about officer discretion.

If the OP's story is 100% true, I think the officer who ordered the vehicle towed failed to make a reasonable decision.

Whether the licence is lost/stolen has no bearing on the driver's physical and mental ability to safely operate a vehicle.

What I find strange is the "expired" status of the licence when the officer looked it up. This casts a doubt on the original post.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:07 PM   #15
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If there was anything else to the story like he was doing something else illegal or breaking road rules, it definitely would have been on his ticket. He only has 2 violations which are the ones I listed.

I only spoke to him over the phone yesterday while this was happening but last night when I saw him he told me exactly what happened. There isn't much more to the story except this addition, that $100 tow he paid for it was just for the tow truck coming there and almost hooking the vehicle up, so basically the officer called the tow truck driver who was pretty much ready to hook the vehicle up he was told it was gonna be towed to the yard, so my brother was in the process of arranging a ride with the tow truck directly to the yard. And then there seemed to have been some kind of back and forth between the female officer who was in charge of issuing the ticket and the other male officer present. This led to the tow truck backing away from my brothers car and they basically let him drive off in the car since he was only a few blocks away from my house.


So my original assumption of the officers laptop giving her the wrong info about license status is false, obviously she got the right info and saw his license was valid, otherwise there is no way that they would have let him drive off without a valid license.


I conclude the same thing as sho_bc did, the officer's experience with the MVA

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Originally Posted by sho_bc View Post
....perhaps the person issuing it may not have much experience/knowledge with the motor vehicle act....




I think all my brother really has to do is just dispute go to court, I highly doubt the officer will show up, she didnt seem to sure on anything she wanted to do... First she said she was only gonna charge him with one ticket for failure to provide license, and then came back and added no license, and then once again changed her mind on towing the vehicle to the yard, so yea definitely what Sho was gettin at, she might have been a rookie perhaps, but I'm glad the other officer present knew what to do.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:12 PM   #16
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SebBerry...no it doesn't affect physical or mental but it affects legal ability. If the MVB computer shows no valid DL and you let the driver continue, you would could be held liable for any problems that may follow the decision. You If you permitted the driver to continue to drive without having a DL on him/her then you are permitting him to break the law...Police do not have the authority to do that. I always permitted the driver to get someone else with a DL to drive or to call someone at home where the DL was and get them to bring it to them.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:21 PM   #17
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So this is what I understand so far:

-The cop claimed he didn't have a valid licence
-The cop called a tow-truck
-The cop argued with the other cop, tow truck driver was sent away
-Your brother still had to pay the tow-truck call despite not needing the tow
-The cop decided that he did have a valid licence and let him drive home
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:42 PM   #18
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I just think they figured they made a mistake and let my brother go, obviously they cannot take the ticket back it's already been issued but I'm sure they expect my brother to go dispute while neither of them have any plans on going to court.

I myself have had been pulled over once where a ticket was issued something to do with my license plate I remember vaguely was like 3 years ago, the cop ended up looking at it closer and changed his mind when he saw it was mounted properly, and told me he can't take the ticket back but I should just dispute it go to court and will have it nullified. I told him I understood and really appreciated him double checking things, most officers wouldn't have done that.


I think the only thing he's gonna lose out on is the $100 tow fee, I told him he deserves it and I hope he learns his lesson, if he's gonna drive with his fckin top down in a 60k bmw barely outta his 20's, expect to draw some attention... now he knows why all the times I borrowed his car I have never once dropped the top
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:29 PM   #19
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OP: should still ask to see if the tow bill can be reimbursed.

I thnk it would be wrong for him to pay $100 for a tow truck that didn't tow, based on someone else's fuckup.

assuming he wins the dispute, that is.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:05 PM   #20
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OP: should still ask to see if the tow bill can be reimbursed.

I thnk it would be wrong for him to pay $100 for a tow truck that didn't tow, based on someone else's fuckup.

assuming he wins the dispute, that is.
Right, just like you are on the hook for a $100 inspection fee even if nothing is wrong.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:20 PM   #21
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If there was anything else to the story like he was doing something else illegal or breaking road rules, it definitely would have been on his ticket.
Not necessarily - see my link above: the only thing on that ticket was a box 3 N&O - no fines.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:44 PM   #22
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so you're saying it's illegal to drive without the physical license on you ?
Production of licence and liability card, duplicates

33 (1) Every person, except

(a) a person driving or operating a motor vehicle exempted under section 2 (5) or section 8 or 10, or

(b) a person driving or operating a motor vehicle of a fire department of a municipality,

must have his or her driver's licence and driver's certificate and a motor vehicle liability insurance card or financial responsibility card, issued for the motor vehicle he or she is driving or operating, in his or her possession at all times while driving or operating that motor vehicle on a highway, and must produce the licence, certificate and card for inspection on demand of a peace officer.

So, simply, YES.

Quote:
an assumption I really dont at all appreciate coming from you skidmark, I come to this police forum for cold hard facts not bs)
Sorry! I say that because in general, people leave bits out of their story. Otherwise, the officer involved towed the vehicle illegally. Not to say that this doesn't happen, but it is far more often the former than the latter.

Quote:
If it's illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a physical card license, that's understandable, but it also brings up a whole other issue of why he was pulled over in the first place, obviously profiling and whoever is reading this is smart enough to realize exactly why he was pulled over *cough*young kid driving expensive bmw *cough*
anyway that's not something I wanna get into, everyone with half a brain knows that a favorite police activity is profiling, anyway gonna leave that at that.
Which can also mean that the vehicle has been stolen. Of the two, I would prefer not to be accused of leaving a thief with the vehicle.


Quote:
But I'm looking at his two tickets right now, and on top of the $100 towing fee, total of 2 tickets at $300 together
first ticket is failure to display drivers license and second ticket is driving with no license
Ah, see, the "driving with no license" part wasn't mentioned in the original post. This IS a reason for towing the vehicle, but only if the driver has already been convicted of driving without a license prior to this incident.

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So now tell me more about this double jeopardy thing you're talking about,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:12 PM   #23
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The officers are correct, it is illegal to drive without being in possession of a valid driver's license when you are driving and producing it immediately to police on demand.
what if you drive without your license and get into an accident. can the cops do something about that or will ICBC / cops look over that?
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:48 PM   #24
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I just think they figured they made a mistake and let my brother go, obviously they cannot take the ticket back it's already been issued but I'm sure they expect my brother to go dispute while neither of them have any plans on going to court.
Actually, the officer can just cancel the ticket right on the spot. Happened before. I couldn't find my insurance at first, but by the time the officer wrote up the ticket and came to give it to me, I had found it already. I showed it to him (it was stuck between 2 pages of a book which is why I couldn't find it right away) and he took my insurance, went back to check it and then came back and said that he wrote me a $100 ticket for failing to produce insurance papers but since I found it, he'll just rip up the ticket and then gave me my license and registration back and let me go.
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Old 01-16-2011, 11:07 PM   #25
Rs has made me the woman i am today!
 
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well that explains it all then, gave teh police all my thanks, I'd thank all the rest of you dudes, but police gets priority
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