Advice on Video Editing System (Lomac, get in here).

[dangonay]

I thought I'd post this here since I couldn't find a forum on video. It's either here or in Computer/Electronics, and this seemed far more appropriate.

I want to get a video editing system for my wife (for high-end wedding videography). Two cameras to start, with a third later on if she finds use for it, a workstation and software. The audio portion I'll take care of, as that's one thing I'm very familiar with. This is going to be from scratch, so I'd like to get her the most suitable equipment and computer.

- Do I get her a PC and run something like Vegas or Premiere, or a Mac and run FCP? And please, no PC or Mac fanboys or haters - I just want to know what's the best for this specific application only.
- Obviously, we want HD cameras. Preferably good in low light (or one of them at least). Should we be looking at an SLR that does video or a pure video camera?
- How does time code work with prosumer/professional camcorders? I'm from a recording studio background, so am not familiar with how it works with the latest video gear. Do I need to specifically get that feature, or is it something that's already there because of the digital format? I'm only asking as with multiple cameras, only one will be getting an audio feed to record a ceremony, and obviously you want all the video to be synced to the audio.
- I was thinking of a budget around $15K for two cameras, computer and software (maybe I don't need to spend that much, maybe I need to spend more - this is why I'm asking).

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated.

[Senna4ever]

Are you going to be editing full 24fps 1080p video? What do you mean by "best?" Software preferences are highly personal, but the new Final Cut X looks to be a pretty sweet...although one of my clients today said it looked like iMovie on steroids. Every person I talked to today were looking forward to it. Of course, if you go the Final Cut route, you're stuck to a Mac platform, and a Mac Pro with 8 or 12 cores will get expensive very quickly. I don't know any professional photographers or videographers who do high end work that use Windows. None. ...and most of our clients are well established professionals.

What do you mean by "high-end?" Do you mean something starting at around $4,500 per 10 or 12 hour day with a 30-45 minute final video with a short 5 minute video shown during the reception? One of our clients (a group of 3) shoot with a pro Sony EX1R video camera, and 2 Canon 5DmkII cameras, with one editor editing away on a Macbook Pro during the day so they can make a 5 minute short film to show during the last half of the reception. They use a variety of steadycams and rigs to do fantastic videos. It all depends if she is able to convince the clients that they are getting value for whatever she is charging too.

I will add to this later...must go out for dinner!

[dangonay]

^ Would that be Love Story? Spent some time checking out their site - very nice work.
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[Lomac]

There are a few questions that need to be asked before I can fully suggest options. Well, mainly just one: How technically savvy is she? Does she have experience with shooting video or photos on full manual settings? And I don't mean with a $150 point and shoot... I mean full out professional gear. Most good, high end prosumer/professional videos cameras are very involved when making sure you have all the settings just right for the lighting situation, especially for weddings. The other thing is how willing is she to learn an editing program, and how fancy are the videos she wants to create? Virtually all current versions of editing programs are HD-codec compatible, so you don't really need to keep an eye on that when picking out a program. However, each program has a completely different learning curve. Sony Vegas, iMovie and other similarly priced programs are relatively simple in both their learning curve and in the options they give you. Adobe Premiere is a middle range program, which can be greatly enhanced with add-ons like After Effects and Photoshop. At the far end of the spectrum are Final Cut Pro and Avid. My preference between those two is Avid, but that may be a result of using it for the past decade while FCP has been a once in a while thing. FCP does seem to have a slightly better learning curve versus Avid but Apple computers can get supremely expensive when building similar rigs compared to their PC counterparts. Based on the price difference alone for computers, I'd rather stick with Avid and dump the money you saved there into better video and sound equipment.

Which brings me to the camera. I'm currently shooting on a Sony VG10, which is loosely based on the NEX-camera series, albeit with a larger sensor. It's a good camera but the major downside is that the only audio-in is a standard 1/4" jack. No XLR inputs, so it's not very useful for capturing quality sound. And I wouldn't bother using an XLR adaptor on it. I used to shoot on the Canon XL1 and H1 cameras. Those are my personal preferences, especially the H1S. There's no LCD flip out screen, which is the one real downside, but it's otherwise a fantastic prosumer camera. I'm hesitant to suggest buying an SLR camera over a dedicated video camera simply because I hear the occasional horror story of SLR owners having their sensors burnt out (well, at least the camera shutting off to prevent it from overheating), especially when doing a long video.

Something to check out is the visual difference between 24fps and 30fps. While it's "cool" to shoot in 24f, I don't recommend it. So don't base your camera purchase on that option alone.

The other question is what sort of media you want to shoot on. While SDHC cards tend to be the main trend manufacturers are going with, you can still find cameras that shoot on MiniDV tapes. I'd try to stay away from cameras that use cards like Panasonic's P2, simply because the value:cost ratio is not worth it. Even if I had an unlimited budget, I'd still avoid them.

Timecode is a different matter. Some cameras have TC built directly in, others don't. And unless you record the audio onto a standalone unit like Marantz's PMD661 (just an example), there isn't a huge need for TC. It only works well if you use a clapper or something else that allows you to be able to sync both audio and video together. And which the advent of video being recorded on digital media, it gets split into separate files on the card. TC works very well for actual film, but it starts loosing its effectiveness for digital recordings. That said, it does have its uses, especially if you start all two or three cameras rolling at different times, but I'll maintain that it's not necessary. Even for my shoots I rarely use it.

Based on what you're thinking, I'd recommend a budget of probably closer to $20000. If you're buying new, two Canon H1S cameras will run you close to $15000, especially once you add extended use batteries (whether Canon or Anton Bauer, it's up to you... but it's something you will need). Don't forget the cost for some fluid head tripods (avoid ball heads for video shoots). Then you'll have to look at the cost of both a new computer and the editing software. That will vary depending on what you end up deciding on, but my overclocked Q6600 is being taxed whenever I try to edit full 1080p video footage. Buy the best rig you can justifiably afford. You wont regret it.

I'll add more later as my girlfriend just fell asleep on my shoulder. Hope this helps a bit. Let me know a bit more information and I'll be able to give you some more specific advice.

[dangonay]

I can see this is going to be a coomplicated decision. Hopefully it will be of some use to other RS members as well.

- Senna4ever: We've looked at competitors and think that we want to be in the $1,500 to $3,000 price range for packages. Not interested in doing the short video to show at the reception at this time.

- The Canon 5D has been out for some time now and Nikon still hasn't caught up on the video side. Too bad, as I have a lot of $$$ in Nikkor lenses and it would have been nice to be able to use them.

- Lomac: My wife is the creative one, I'm the technical one. What I've found over the years is you can teach an artistic person to use a piece of gear, but you can't teach a techie to be "artistic". So we should be a good match in this venture. I wouldn't worry about the "tech savvy" part at all.

- For the audio side I have my own gear (mics, mixing console, processing). I'd prefer XLR on the camera, but it's not 100% necessary since the camera will be getting a line out from my console anyway.

- I have a question about LANC. I know you can send data to control a camera (like changing lens zoom), but does anyone know if you can get data back from the camera (for example, I'd love to know the lens zoom position).

- I've been digging around trying to find a good motion control tripod head. Some call themselves "motion control" but are really just human operated remote pan/tilt heads. I want something that can move a camera through a pre-determined path. For example, if I move the camera manually through various motions, those motions would be recorded and the camera can repeat those same motions later on. This also involved my question about LANC. Being able to pan/tilt the camera through a preset path would be useless if you couldn't also change the zoom on the lens at the same time.

- Back to the computer/software. For products that are available on both PC/Mac, how is the performance/usability between the two? If I went with something like Premiere Pro, would it perform significantly faster on either platform (with similar processors/memory)? Do both versions operate exactly the same, or are there differences because of the OS that makes one more usable than the other? I know Mac has always been preferred for photographers and other people who work with media. Is a Mac still obviously better, or are people still saying it is because of the history?

[Senna4ever]

$1,500 - $3,000 isn't high end IMHO. A few guys in town have packages in the $6,000 range. I guess starting out in the $1,500 - $3,000 range is good though as long as you have a business plan to work your way up.

Many people use Nikon lenses on Canon bodies with adapters.

Oh, and this probably doesn't matter to you, but the 5DmkII has manual audio gain control when using the built-in microphone jack, but the 7D does not.

[dangonay]

^ I should clarify. By high-end I'm referring to having good gear and using it properly to capture high quality footage to be able to produce a first class product. In looking at various packages people offer a lot of it seems manpower related (like having someone dedicated to editing footage to show at the reception). To me this can be added later if my wife wants to go this route. For now there will be two of us.

I don't want to buy a Canon body and adaptor to use my lenses. I'm really looking for an excuse to get a new Nikon body to add to my collection.

Im going to go the PC route. Mainly because I can build my own rig. The two programs I'm looking at are Premiere and Avid, both having recent updates.

Who would you recommend I rent cameras from so I can try them out before purchasing?
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[Nismo200SX]

currently your options for nikon bodies for video are the D7000 and the D5100 which will be released this saturday april 23. D5100 has nice high res articulating screen and 24p 30p 1080p which is nice to have while d7k only has 24p.

both have manual controls for video and continuous autofocus.

Senna is right though a lot of people use nikon lenses on canon bodies for shooting video especially the old MF AI-S lenses.

hacked canon T2i and panasonic GH1 bodies are great for shooting video for the high bitrate.

[Senna4ever]

The one big thing that sucks about Nikon bodies is that the refresh rate on the screen is no where near as smooth as it is on Canon bodies. It's really bothersome. Also, I don't thnk you can get cine lenses for Nikon mount.
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[dangonay]

Does anyone know anything about the upcoming Sony 35mm NXCAM's? They have one out soon selling for around $6,000. Couldn't get any useful information online as all the discussions I've seen are filled with Sony haters or Sony fanboys, so lots of garbage to shift through.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by dangonay

Does anyone know anything about the upcoming Sony 35mm NXCAM's? They have one out soon selling for around $6,000. Couldn't get any useful information online as all the discussions I've seen are filled with Sony haters or Sony fanboys, so lots of garbage to shift through.

Have you checked out http://www.dvinfo.net They have a wedding section too.

[dangonay]

^ Yeah, been reading a bit. Was debating starting the same kind of thread there.

Main reason I asked here is I know of several RS members who have been around this industry and I would trust their opinion (Senna and Lomac come to mind right away) more than some stranger in another forum.
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[Senna4ever]

I would say go to a pro video store like Provision or Genesis Matrix and pick their brains. The people who work there are very knowledgeable.