| Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum. |
 | 
05-09-2011, 10:37 AM
|
#1 | | Wanna have a threesome?
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,889
Thanked 5,054 Times in 1,657 Posts
Failed 439 Times in 203 Posts
| Independant Analysis on Gun Registry Expenses Released.
Coles Notes: The conservative numbers for the potential savings scrapping the LGR eould give are impossible, the entire fire arms registry costs only $11 million dollars per year according to an independent analysis obtained through an Access to Information request. In an attempt to save the registry the NDP is looking to further lower the cost. Quote:
Globe and Mail
An independent cost-benefit analysis of Conservative legislation to kill the federal long-gun registry has found the public savings could amount to just over $1.5-million annually – and that there are only two good reasons to scrap the program.
One is a reduced burden on gun owners. The other is a lighter load for taxpayers.
NDP tables long-shot bill to bridge divide on gun registry
Conservative math doesn't add up on gun registry
Long-gun registry vote highlights divide within Liberal Party
But in contrast to the tens of millions of dollars in savings estimated by the Conservative government, the 2009 analysis for the RCMP by Peter Hall of the management consulting firm Pleiad Canada Inc., found that scrapping the long-gun registry would save between $1,570,000 and $4,025,000 a year.
Those numbers were first made public in August when they were inserted toward the end of a 70-page evaluation of firearms programs conducted by the RCMP. Mr. Hall’s report, which was obtained by The Globe and Mail using Access to Information legislation, provides an explanation of how the savings were calculated.
While Mr. Hall could identify just two benefits to the legislation to kill the gun registry, he found 20 “costs,” including increased risks to the public and police, less-efficient investigations and less accountability.
Opposition MPs said this week that Mr. Hall’s analysis would have been useful had it been available in September when Parliament was in the middle of a heated debate in advance of a vote that ultimately defeated an attempt by Conservative backbencher Candice Hoeppner to kill the registry.
The report says that in 2007-08, the cost of administering the Canadian Firearms Centre was $61.72-million. The firearms-licensing program accounted for $50.56-million of that, while the cost of registering all firearms, including restricted and prohibited weapons as well as long guns, was $11.16-million.
“So those are the kinds of numbers from an independent agency that the Conservatives wouldn’t want floating around because it puts the lie to the [claim of] hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on the long-gun registry as opposed to where most of the money is being spent, which is on licensing,” said Joe Comartin, the NDP justice critic.
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry. And there would still have been costs entailed in registering restricted and prohibited weapons.
“The government held out a variety of figures in the $70-million, $80-million, I heard $100-million range when, clearly, they had a report that said it was nothing like that,” said Mark Holland, the Liberal public safety critic.
“They buried this so we didn’t have it for the debate,” he said. “They were trying to get the House to vote with blindfolds on.”
The Conservatives, meanwhile, are standing by their assertion that the registry is both costly and useless.
“This September’s very close vote is the furthest we have come to dismantling the $2-billion wasteful and ineffective long-gun registry,” said Christopher McCluskey, a spokesman for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews. “We will continue to work to scrap it.”
Mr. Hall concluded that if legislation to scrap the long-gun registry were passed, and if staff were no longer required to classify guns to determine whether they are non-restricted, restricted or prohibited weapons, the firearms program could eliminate 63 full-time positions. That would save taxpayers $3,360,000 in salaries and benefits, and there would be an additional savings of $650,000 in information technology costs.
But if some of the people now employed to register long guns were still required to classify the weapons, said Mr. Hall, the savings would amount to just $1,570,000 annually.
System enhancements that would be required in the first year after the program was scrapped would reduce those savings by $375,000, the report said.
| Posted via RS Mobile | 
|  | |
05-09-2011, 05:14 PM
|
#2 | | Need to Seek Professional Help
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 1,017
Thanked 103 Times in 62 Posts
Failed 121 Times in 45 Posts
|
LOL @ only 11mil per year.
__________________
RS firearm expert
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 05:35 PM
|
#3 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: surrey
Posts: 2,585
Thanked 4,578 Times in 934 Posts
Failed 554 Times in 127 Posts
|
the gun registry was supposed to cost canadians $2 million, it has cost over a billion.
There is absolutely no evidence that it has prevented any crime.
Why would you want to waste anymore money on it, when those funds could be much better spent on other crime reduction measures.
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 06:01 PM
|
#4 | | My homepage has been set to RS
Join Date: May 2006 Location: PoCo
Posts: 2,062
Thanked 551 Times in 141 Posts
Failed 84 Times in 48 Posts
|
Anyone know the numbers of registered gun vs illegal gun crimes? Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-09-2011, 06:56 PM
|
#5 | | Wanna have a threesome?
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,889
Thanked 5,054 Times in 1,657 Posts
Failed 439 Times in 203 Posts
|
I think a big part of this report is proving that the Liberal claims on the annual costs were completely accurate, while the Conservatives were laughable. Many people would support the gun registry being maintained if it only costs a few million dollars a year and wouldn't if it costs 65. Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-09-2011, 07:01 PM
|
#6 | | Need to Seek Professional Help
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 1,017
Thanked 103 Times in 62 Posts
Failed 121 Times in 45 Posts
|
Gun registry does NOT prevent crimes.
__________________
RS firearm expert
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 08:56 PM
|
#7 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Richmond
Posts: 12,484
Thanked 2,091 Times in 773 Posts
Failed 765 Times in 247 Posts
|
I'm not falling for this trap.
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 08:57 PM
|
#8 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Richmond
Posts: 12,484
Thanked 2,091 Times in 773 Posts
Failed 765 Times in 247 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damaxmr2  Gun registry does NOT prevent crimes. | The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
The Conservatives intended to continue the licensing program even if they had managed to kill the long-gun registry
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 09:11 PM
|
#9 | | Need to Seek Professional Help
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 1,017
Thanked 103 Times in 62 Posts
Failed 121 Times in 45 Posts
|
I have my license already and your point is?
__________________
RS firearm expert
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 09:11 PM
|
#10 | | Wanna have a threesome?
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,889
Thanked 5,054 Times in 1,657 Posts
Failed 439 Times in 203 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damaxmr2 Gun registry does NOT prevent crimes. | Can you show me a program with that costs 1-4 million dollars per year that makes a significant difference in gun crime?
Take it for what it is, the gun registry is currently an inexpensive tool that the RCMP finds useful and makes it more difficult for criminals to gain access to guns. It might save 1 life a year, that's almost immeasurable, but still worthwhile. Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-09-2011, 09:13 PM
|
#11 | | Need to Seek Professional Help
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alpha Centauri
Posts: 1,017
Thanked 103 Times in 62 Posts
Failed 121 Times in 45 Posts
|
It never saved anyone and it never will. Gun registry does NOT track stolen/smuggled firearms.
__________________
RS firearm expert
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 09:16 PM
|
#12 | | Wanna have a threesome?
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,889
Thanked 5,054 Times in 1,657 Posts
Failed 439 Times in 203 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damaxmr2 It never saved anyone and it never will. Gun registry does NOT track stolen/smuggled firearms. | The RCMP might disagree with that statement, can you support it somehow?
Of course it doesn't track stolen/smuggled fire arms, but it prevents legally purchased fire arms from easily entering the criminal market place, which is a huge problem in the states. Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-09-2011, 09:56 PM
|
#13 | | To me, there is the Internet and there is RS
Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Nanaimo
Posts: 17,085
Thanked 8,131 Times in 3,815 Posts
Failed 1,514 Times in 651 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damaxmr2 It never saved anyone and it never will. Gun registry does NOT track stolen/smuggled firearms. | Name me one program that tracks anything stolen or smuggled.
Seems stupid you have to register your car but not your gun.
The gun registry has helped put killers people behind bars saving lives.
__________________
Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter. | 
| | |
05-09-2011, 10:08 PM
|
#14 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
Posts: 1,149
Thanked 457 Times in 190 Posts
Failed 397 Times in 91 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic! Name me one program that tracks anything stolen or smuggled.
Seems stupid you have to register your car but not your gun.
The gun registry has helped put killers people behind bars saving lives. | Lojack, mobileme,
| |
| | |
05-09-2011, 10:18 PM
|
#15 | | Wanna have a threesome?
Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,889
Thanked 5,054 Times in 1,657 Posts
Failed 439 Times in 203 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknerd Lojack, mobileme, | Someone who stole something could disable those systems if they chose to smuggle or resell something though, I think Manic's point, however vague, was an infoulable system that can't be bypassed. Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-10-2011, 02:11 AM
|
#16 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,764
Thanked 281 Times in 96 Posts
Failed 64 Times in 25 Posts
|
MindBomber, you asked me in another thread about our gun laws to which I replied with some info but you never responded.
Let me share some information with you: 1. Cost of the registry
We've been hearing that the firearms program costs anywhere from $2 to $100 million dollars of taxpayers money to run each other, with an accumulated cost of approximately $2 billion + since its inception in 1995. Both the Liberals and the Conservatives quote numbers from "independent" studies to support their claims, so I personally would not trust either at this point.
This report from the Auditor general in 2006 estimates total cost of the program to be at around $100 million http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/En...1_e_14446.html
This report from the RCMP in 2010 estimates total cost to be around $66 million, and the registration cost to be around $4 million (page 13 and on) http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/pubs/fire-...l/eval-eng.pdf
This report from the Tresury Board of Canada puts the REGISTRATION portion of the cost to the RCMP at around $22 million http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/201...C-eng.asp#bm07
We can see that there's no clear indication of how much the registration portion really costs, but also that it does NOT cost ONLY $ 4 million. The Liberals have been quoting the low end of the figure whereas the Conservatives the higher end. Either case, we are still being lied to but anyone with any common sense can see that it is NOT what the original cost as was planned when the bill was introduced in 1995. More on this later in relation to the cost-benefit analysis. 2. Usefulness of the registry to front line Police Officers
If you're a cop and you get a domestic dispute call, you run the address in your computer (which, initially, has nothing to do with the Firearms database, but is still registered as a "hit") and it comes up saying "no firearms at this residence". Would you approach this call thinking that "I'm safe, the registry says there's no guns here", and confront the residents thinking that you are safe? Or, would you approach every call the same way (cautiously) regardless of what the registry tells you? Think about it for a second.
Here's a link to 45 pages of front-line officers that do not find the registry to be useful http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publi...s/2009/976.pdf
Here's a report from the Canadian Shooting Sports Association on a an informal survey done with officers throughout Canada http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/201..._20100819.html and http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publi...licequotes.htm
Sure, it probably doesn't hurt to have the registry, but it sure sounds like the cops see it as something they can go by without.
3. Gun Registry as a tracking system for stolen guns, leading to prevention of crime
Think about this one for a bit, let's say I have a bag of hammers and they are all registered with the government, 2 of them were stolen and I reported so to the Police. The police noted in their database that "Bonjour43MA lost 2 hammers" then moved on, never look into how and why they were stolen, and where they may end up. 5 months later, someone used one of the hammers to smash a guy's head in during a home invasion incident. The police goes to the crime scene and recovers the hammer, runs the serial number against their database and goes "yip, this was stolen 5 months ago from Bonjour43MA", and puts it in the evidence bag, and continuing on with their process of looking for the assailant, using other evidence found at the scene (finger prints, DNA samples, etc).
Tell me, how did registering my hammer help the Police prevent this horrific crime? If the sole purpose of the registry was to prevent crime, why do we still hear about shooting/stabbing deaths everyday on the news, when we ALREADY have it in place?
4. RCMP's support of the registry
The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police http://www.cacp.ca/index/main is the organization that has been quoted in saying that the RCMP supports the registry. Unfortunately, the CACP is not a policing entity, in fact, it's a political entity that takes donations from any that wishes to do so. http://www2.macleans.ca/tag/cgi-group/ The CGI group maintains the registry's online database. Conflict of interest, no?
Donations/endorsements sent to the CACP ensures that they are vocal about supporting the registry, creating a false impression on the public that "the police" (including the RCMP) want to keep the registry for the safety of the public. That may be the case but the real reason behind their support is always in question. The CACP can say that they "represent the law enforcement community" but that is completely false once you consider who their financial backers are. Go back to point 2 to see what the front-line officers, those that are in the field, think about the registry instead. 5. Cost is not a concern as long as it saves one life
Again, an emotional issue like gun-control can often lead to illogical thinking for finding a solution. One may say "so what the registration costs $x million of dollars, as long as it saves one life, it's worth it!". First of all, there has been no proof of any kind that the registration has ever prevented any gun-related crimes (including the use of illegal firearms) from happening. Secondly, you can apply the same logic and preventative measures to things like automobile-related deaths caused by drunk drivers, where more police road checks can be setup and be run on an even more regular basis, and at more intersections on our roads. Surely that would save more than one life, right? and people would simply stop drinking-and-driving for good?
Cost is definitely a concern, no matter how much it is. Why keep wasting money on something you can't proof to be useful, when the money can be spent elsewhere like Health Care of Social programs, that MAY be able to save lives as well?
I'm not anti gun registry, to be honest with you. I think it's not a bad way to hold legal gun owners accountable for what they do with their guns (not selling to random people, not trafficking legal firearms into the wrong hands, etc). However, I do have a problem with the government selling it as a crime prevention tool, something that's supposed to keep everyone safe from the gangster out there. What they failed to realize is that, hey, criminals don't don't obey any laws whatsoever, so how would having strict gun-control on law-abiding citizens have ANY effect on the outlaws? No one from the pro gun control side can ever answer me that question so I'm curious to hear it from some of you here. What is gun-control, and which members of society is it really trying to control?
Look, I don't agree with what a lot of those gun nutz think and say (wanting concealed carry laws, removal of licensing AND registration systems, etc etc), but when it comes to gun laws, emotional elements are often emphasized instead of logical reasoning and common sense. It is much easier to come up with laws to "control" how legal firearms can be acquired after tragedies involving guns, than to spend the money and resource on proper screening process on license applications, proper mental health care support, and proper law enforcement support (more of it).
"Guns are bad! If they weren't here no one would've ever been killed!", as many anti-gun supporters would yell, yet they fail to realize that, hey, when someone goes crazy, they'll grab whatever they can find and carry on with the mayhem. No guns? Alright they'll grab knives. No knives? Alright they'll grab hammers. So on and so forth. There will always be crazy people out there, criminals that have absolutely no respect for others or the law, and to those people, any form of "control" or "restrictions" will NEVER apply. This is one point that most anti-gun people don't seem to get or understand - no matter how strict the laws are, criminals do not obey them. They are called criminals for that very reason - they don't care about what's legal and what's not.
Bottom line is, our current gun laws were written by those that have no real understanding of firearms (why would a semi-auto AK47 be more deadly than a semi-auto hunting rifle? why prohibit firearms based on names alone, as if the name of the firearms increase their firepower?), with influences from gun control lobbying group, as a knee-jerk reaction to tragic shooting incidents involving firearms (Ecole Polytechnique), by a government that was seeking re-election votes from voters. I hope the laws can be better (re)written with the introduction of new bills, so that the Firearms program can "save lives" by properly screening and filtering out those individuals that should never get their hands on firearms due to unstable mental or health issues.
__________________
Nikonian
Last edited by Bonjour43MA; 05-10-2011 at 02:21 AM.
| |
| | |
05-10-2011, 04:49 AM
|
#17 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,798
Thanked 1,502 Times in 506 Posts
Failed 418 Times in 151 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber I think a big part of this report is proving that the Liberal claims on the annual costs were completely accurate, while the Conservatives were laughable. Many people would support the gun registry being maintained if it only costs a few million dollars a year and wouldn't if it costs 65. Posted via RS Mobile | Oh, poor baby. Still upset the Conservatives won their majority? So you couldn't convince people to vote anything but Conservative, so now you're going to try to convince people they made the wrong choice after the fact?
| |
| | |
05-10-2011, 05:31 AM
|
#18 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: surrey
Posts: 2,585
Thanked 4,578 Times in 934 Posts
Failed 554 Times in 127 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic! The gun registry has helped put killers people behind bars saving lives. | Do you have any evidence at all to support this claim? Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
05-10-2011, 06:00 AM
|
#19 | | Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 1,476
Thanked 522 Times in 263 Posts
Failed 102 Times in 40 Posts
|
Isn't one of the points of the registry to be able to distinguish between legally and illegally procured weapons? Which sounds like no big deal I suppose but is actually one of the ways that the police prosecute and track organized crime.
__________________
~ Just another noob looking for a clue
| |
| | |
05-10-2011, 08:07 AM
|
#20 | | I STILL don't get it
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: richmond
Posts: 463
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Failed 4 Times in 1 Post
|
gun registry does not prevent crime, death penalty does (in some way).
Its very easily for me right now to go into my safe, use a piece of sand paper to sand the serial# and toss it out on to the street. There will be no way for the gun registry to track that. Point is criminals do not follow the laws, we law-abiding citizen do. How many of those car thiefs in surrey have their driver licences/icbc insurance? none, they are still stealing cars.
LGR will not save lives, it never did and it never will. Did the LGR save the 4 rcmp's life that were kill in alberta number of years ago? Nope. all in all, its a big waste of money, criminals will continue to do what they do because of the flawed justice system.
__________________
Honda: Hang On Not Done Accelerating
| |
| | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:14 AM.
|
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
