But if there was a God, he would know all this sadness would happen, the moment he created the Garden of Eden.

God is omnipotent.

Adam may not know how he would act, but God knew exactly what Adam would do. No big surprise there.

How do you conclude that afterlife is very real? Consciousness is real as far as I can tell, but afterlife, I highly doubt it.

Sorry dude but did you just call the water cycle a theory? That it's the best we got? Can you elaborate on this? What part are you skeptical of? Rain? Evaporation?

Self contradicting unless you don't consider Hume a scholar.

But true we don't have absolute certainty of the creation of the universe and it's human nature to assume that something complicated must be planned.
I admit it doesn't take a lot of faith for me to ignore end of the world prediction but still not the certainty or eg 1 + 1 = 2

You don't find this paragraph a bit hypocritical? First you say you find it unacceptable to question science as a religion because religion is something that may not be questioned?

If God is omnipotent and the creator then he should know that he is creating sadness and suffering. And there is a lot of suffering in the world. Maybe we are wrong to think that God is good. We come into the world suffering. Ever heard of a baby being born laughing?

No I don't.

To question whether science is a religion, you have to lay out terms defining both.

For me, the distinction is clear, when someone claims to know what happens after we die, I call that religious talk.

Sure, we can only be absolutely certain on things we define such as mathematics, or sensations we can feel such as our consciousness; but then, so what?

Like I said earlier, it's all about making judgement calls. Of course, no one knows with absolute certainty the end of the world will come in a few hours, but which is more likely?

if got knows what adam would do, why didn't he just fucking move the apple higher so they can't reach it?
why doesnt the omnipotent god just delete the fucking snake?

so let me get this straight.
1.god MADE adam without knowledge and the ability to identify right and wrong.
2.god then put an apple from the tree of knowledge which GIVES adam the knowledge of right and wrong in a place that god KNOWS adam and eve can get to.
3. god KNOWS the EVILsnake which he created in the perfect garden of eden will lure adam to eat the apple which would result in perma ban from garden of eden.
4. snake trolled adam and eve to get the apple in GOD'S OWN BACKYARD.
5. god gets mad at adam and eve and perma ban their asses from garden of eden when it's perfectly preventable in so many different ways but god decides to blame adam and eve for something that IT(god) set them up for.

sounds to me the christian god is the ultimate fucking troll AND the people that believe in this horsecrap are slightly brain damaged.

ps

6. god continues to be upset at humanity with every baby born inheriting adam's original sin.
7. yet we are supposed to thank this god 24/7.

I'm not a christian, but what I understand of the religion, the point is not that "man should never sin" but rather "man is by nature a sinner" and what you do about it (pray to god, go to church, be a good person as much as possible, etc) is what matters.

So I guess the point is, don't feel too bad about doing bad things - you'll be forgiven in the end if you are religious. The rest of us will be left behind.

I don't want to make this thread into a Bible lesson or anything, but when I see people misunderstand what Christianity is about I have to speak up and clarify.

You had it right when you said "man is by nature a sinner". The part you misunderstood is when you said it's what you do about it that matters.

Being Christian is all about having faith in what Jesus Christ did for us when he died for our sins. It was an act of grace (<-- keyword here). There is nothing we can do to earn ourselves into heaven or to correct our wrongs.

Let me use the Bible's own words as proof of this:

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

Oh so I was over esitmating what christians are expected to do to get into heaven? wow

Jesus never died right he resurrected, no? The death didn't exactly happen did it?

And what did he do for us? God created us, blamed us for what Adam did. What sins did the newborn commit?

Religion is just one big bait and switch scam. The sales pitch always never includes the terms and conditions.

Yes Christ died for our sins, but what do you need to secure your place in heaven, just accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour right? Easy.

But what are the terms and conditions of accepting Jesus Christ? Being Christian?

Then What are the terms and conditions of being a Christian? Going to church? Tithes, offerings, gather more followers for tithes and offerings?



Seriously, it's just one big scam that's been a perversion of old scrolls by the few at the time that could decipher its meaning as a method of controlling those who did not have the ability to read.

Why the hell else is Christianity so rife with contradiction?

Love thy neighbor unless they're gay.
God is a loving God unless you're not his follower.
God is perfect but God is a jealous God
etc.


Me thinks that idea of "faith" is great to begin with but somewhere down the middle something seems wrong.

1. God doesn't need people to love Him back. He made the universe He doesn't require anything. He's not petty enough to need our devotion or sacrifice or money or guilt. This isn't to say that people exploit religion and make it seem like it's about guilt and money.

2. He does however want you to love Him for your own good. Yea, He's God and He's good.

3. True love cannot come without freedom. God could have designed robots who fuck and give birth to angels who just kiss His butt ... but instead, He gave us free will and freedom to choose him or not. That's why the forbidden fruit ( not apple) is so "fucking low"- to give man choice. Otherwise God would be mind raping Adam by sticking him in a universe where things can only go ONE way... back to butt kissing God. Anyways there are enough people in this forum alone who don't want to believe in God and would not appreciate ending up dead and wake up in an eternity where they need to sing praises to God.

4. Since Eve was deceived and Adam was all like....uh.. she did it. They sinned, God told them not to do such and such but they did it. At that point, they were like babies with umbilical cords cut away from the womb of Eden. Sin like a genetic defect came into existence, it's like the DNA strand that codes for death.. after that it's always replicated and passed on.

5. Sin is death, spiritually speaking. To rid yourself of it you can't just say sorry, you had to kill some poor thing or sacrifice, usually the most perfect animal you had excluding humans. This is what Christian call the Old Testament.

6. Then comes the New Testament. Here's where Jesus comes in. He was perfect Son of God and He was the part of God that broke off and decided to give man a second chance. He stepped down from heaven and became human, DIED, yes actually died, ( and quite horribly) to symbolize that sacrificial animal to pay for ALL of humanity's sin. He could do this whereas no perfect animal could because he was 1. Son of God 2. Really really cool 3. Kinda had to do it because there would be no other way for you or me to connect back to God.

The people make it wrong by being people. We are hypocrites, liars, manipulative selfish beings and it's usually the Christians we hate, not really what they have to offer. God is a jealous God not because He's small and petty, but for MY good I love Him. Theoretically for Christians, if God is really creator and all knowing, then the smartest thing I can do is follow Him. Think of life as a math test. Jesus is the calculator, you can do things your way and use pen and paper, or you can use the calculator.. that the teacher (God provides). Thing is you only have so much time to do this test and no one knows how much. Some people take the calculator and rather than do math, they fling it at other people or they get distracted by trying to spell HELLO or whatever. In the end, the teacher designed the test and gave you a calculator to use. He could have given everyone As but not everyone wants to graduate. Certain questions aren't harder or easier to solve, even if you've got a calculator. Sometimes those who have a calculator get cocky too or they scam other students and offer to do their questions for a fee.
I could go on but it's like 3:38 am.. OO...

I also love my gay friends but I still think it's against God's intention for man or women to love each other romantically. Yet, I still hug drug dealing lesbian girls when they cry. I think it's EASIER to point out someone's gay lifestyle and become a hater because the OTHER sins like lying or stealing is just as bad. ( But everyone does it so ..let's not beat a liar to death because I am also a liar.. it's much easier to pick on the odd one out.)

God loves whether or not you are His followers. Love doesn't always mean getting the job you want, the guy you want, nor does it keep my grandma from dying long and drawn out death from cancer. It doesn't protect me from depression when the most loving person in my family commits suicide nearly a year later. ( All true btw )

And most of the time I hate Christians about as much as anyone in here. I would know I'm one of them.

Sweet! So if God loves everyone whether you're his followers or not, why is it important to be a Christian?

Why does one need the label of Christianity; and undergo the terms and conditions to achieve such label?

Why is it important to Christians to increase their numbers? They justify it as saving others, but for those on the outside with a subjective POV it just looks like they just want to increase membership.

If God loves everyone equally, we should all be saved shouldn't we.





The funny thing about reaches and justifications is just leaves more questions than the questions they just answered. Trust me, I know all the entire song and dance. I was a christian for the first 18 years of my life.

And then....? :troll:

Bingo. You got it.

SkinnyPupp,
There is a lot of misconception and twisting of Christian faith in mass media. It sounds like you've been gotten bits and pieces over time, but nobody has ever laid out the picture for you as a whole. It's a cause and effect thing, I'll get to it.

I have to do some quick definitions though, because the meaning behind these words have been kind of watered down in our society. In Christian theology, the terminology is a bit more loaded.

Definition:

• God: Creator of all things. Infinitely full of love and inherently good. He is the father figure that knows best and wants the best for us.
• Sin: Stuff that God told us isn't good. Even what we might think are little things like cheating at poker or telling little white lies to get ahead at work. It's just not healthy for us or for the community.

As I understand it, it kinda goes like this:

Part 1 - Our Choice

1. God Created Humanity with choice.
   God made us to live in perfect community with him. Community goes hand in hand with choice. Mindless borg drones isn't a community. He gave us choice.
2. God does not get along with sin. Where God is, sin cannot exist there.
   Like many things in nature, this is a polar opposite. Much like getting close to the sun. Where God is, darkness is not.
3. Humanity chose to sin.
   Personally speaking, I do exactly the same. Everyday, I am faced with little decisions. Sometimes I cheat and lie to gain an upper hand in life or to find the easy way out of situations.
4. In order to choose to sin, humanity had to walk away from God in order not to get burned. The result is an imperfect life. Sin isn't a small deal though, no matter how hard we try and how hard we work, we cannot fix what we broke. It's like tossing your ipod off an office building, some things, we just aren't equipped to fix. It is at this point that "man is by nature a sinner". This is the "chasm of sin" you often hear.

Part 2 - God's Plan

1. God sees the crappy world we have built up, it is filled with deceit, hate and malice. Like a father seeing his child in pain, he takes mercy on us.
2. His mercy comes in the form of Jesus. God chooses him as our sacrifice, he's our decoy to get burned. Jesus is our bridge so we have a way back over that chasm of sin. In other words, Jesus is God giving us a loophole to make the choice all over again.
3. God is not obligated to give us this loophole. Jesus as our bridge back into a community with God isn't something we obtained by our deeds, we don't deserve it, as such it is a gift. This is what we call Grace.

Part 3 - Our 2nd Chance at choosing

In order to find our way back, all we have to do is accept God's Grace. To do so means a couple things:

1. That you have sinned (once again, see above for definition).
2. That you can't bridge the chasm of sin.
3. That God sent Jesus has as a sacrifice for you.

As Christians, this second chance is something we accept with infinite humbleness and gratitude. But it is also a bit loaded as well. To get there, you must have implicitly acknowledged:

• That there is a God.
• That this God is full of power AND good.
• That this God thought enough of you to bring you back into perfection.

Noir, you are right. Some of what you have mentioned there are part of being a Christian, but I think you mistake true intent of what I have laid out. We gather at church for worship because we are grateful to God. I tithe because I am a realist. A pastor is a community leader, one that can fulfill that role best as a full time position.

As for gathering followers, it's not so they can pay the church. It's so more people also get that 2nd chance. Think of it as that our Freebies Thread. Somebody thought that thread was awesome, they got free stuff simply by signing up. They were so excited to get free stuff, they told me about it. I've gotten a razor and fake pocky and floss. So I think it's awesome too and a a result, I've told my friends about those deals and that thread. It's kinda like that.



As for the old scrolls issue. I don't have the correct stats at hand, but perhaps somebody can jump in here. Anyways, those multiple and numerous scrolls you refer to were found all across the middle east. People have been translating them and scouring them for their meanings, that's why we have english translations of the bible. It's not like people can't read it now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica...#New_Testament





I think historically, there have been a lot of bad theology and bad practice. The Catholic Church has done great damage to Christianity in the form of their bureaucracy, business practices and how they intertwine it with salvation.
ie. Indulgences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence)


I just ask that you ignore the many bad apples Christianity has had, and just look at the message.

Yes, it's a repost, but it's kinda relevant.

If we were truly given the freedom to choose, we would not be punished for picking the 'wrong' choice.

Yes, it's up to you, your life or your money.

Yeah but that awesome Freebies thread doesn't condemn you to eternal damnation if you decide not benefit from it instead.


See, this is exactly why I call it a sales pitch. Every Christian makes it all sounds like God's love is all sunshine and lollipops at the beginning. Yet when one is subject to the religion, everyone must abide by the same Draconian practices lest they incur the wrath of God.

So suddenly God is not so nice? But the sales pitch never mentioned that.

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/a/u/1/_Hf2wcCoWCM

I don't know if u'd agree that every action has a reaction, simple physics. The same is true for our choices. Each choice has a consequence and it's not all a result of God's punishment. It's like flipping a coin. If u got heads the consequence is you can't have tails and vise versa. Hope that makes sense to u.
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And where did original sin come from? Adam ate the apple.
why did adam eat the apple? because the snake said so.
who made the snake? god
who made adam? god
did god made adam with the ability to tell right or wrong? no, the power is held in the apple which god told adam not to touch, unfortunately god didn't make adam with the ability to follow proper instruction, AND god made the evil snake that was just lurk about the tree in the garden.

if the christian fable is true, who is REALLY to blame,
god.

microsoft made xbox360 with a faulty x-clamp which contributed to RROD, and you decide to open it up yourself and fix it with a better method and microsoft decides to void your warranty.

Not the exact scenario but you know in both case the maker is to blame.

My point is, if the christian fairy dust daddy did a better job in making adam, this whole bullshit of original sin and jebus and thousand years of bullshit wont even occurred.
actually, if sky daddy just didnt make the fucking snake in the perfect place in the world, problem solved.

But i guess that would be too boring and god needed to create sinful human so he can go rape a woman named mary and force her husband and her to raise his bastard child.