Heaven is when you can spend eternity with God. It's a privilege to and a choice. If you don't want to then you've cast your vote during your lifetime on earth.

If you choose not to believe in God and you found yourself in His presence in heaven, then that's not free will, not freedom, not love.

That's why even tho God loves everyone a great deal, He won't stick everyone in heaven. He respects the choice of us little beings.

I can save my own skin, I want to save those I love so that I can see them again when I die. If you know about a freebie, it's just normal to want to share.

I don't trust you, if you were to have believed from the inside out, you'd be on the other side of this debate. Chances are that you did the rituals, did the songs and dance but maybe it was only an emotional or physical ritual... not a spiritual belief. Or something life changing happened...like your parents finally stopped forcing u to go to a church or a friend issue.

Most Christians just do that, the rituals, their lives don't change and they might be the biggest dipshit you know... I can't say whether or not it's enough to get into heaven. Heaven might be just some comforting insurance for people who are scared, but fear isn't a good motivator for ppl to believe. Nor are these little debates. I dunno what you went through but whatever it is that put you off was probably the people not really your own relationship with God. If you want to talk about it in person, I'd be happy to meet up for coffee.

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So Adam made a choice to listen to the snake and not his father or his creator... hmm... interesting.

I think most of what you said is true. Adam may not know what is right and wrong. However, he had a choice to decide whether to listen to God who told him not to do something.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

OR listen to Eve who listened to the snake who told them exactly opposite of what God said.

Genesis 3:4-5
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

In all of this, Adam and Eve had a choice. God gave them freewill. You could ask why God gave them this and the answer is love.

I don't think the vulgarity is necessary. If I talked about something or someone you really believe in (e.g. your parents or family), how would you feel?

Did you grow up in a religious family? Been taught the Bible and went to church every Sunday? If so, everything you say means nothing, since you've been brainwashed from the time you were a child. You believe in God and heaven because that's what you've been told to believe in since you were born. How do you expect people to take you seriously? People usually believe in the truth, in facts. Something that you can see, smell, touch.

You've never seen God, but you believe in him, because someone, who hasn't seen God either, tells you that he exists. Does that make sense to you???

Maybe that's why my Christian friends around me are the ones working in top investment/accounting firms, med school graduates, etc. and sorry what do you do again?

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of non-Christian friends as well who are extremely brilliant, but all of them are able to show respect to religions and express their thoughts in a polite manner.

I just don't think you're even in a position to call anyone brain damaged when you can barely argue without having to continuously swear. :rofl:

Not meaning to pollute the dialogue, but using the whole "someone who tells you something who isn't sure tells you something" happens a lot. Also: please don't get down to the whole "you've been brainwashed", thing. We're not talking about terrorism and thinking that the Western World is evil, we're talking about belief of God and Faith. (Yes, capitals on both).

As much as I am not a godboy, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't argue in that manner. Just makes the rest of us look like idiots who dismiss things out of hand and paint with a broad brush.

Chick sounds pretty brainwashed to me. Didn't know brainwashing was only associated with terrorism against the west. :rolleyes:

Maybe this is the word to describe it better? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indoctrinated

Not really. I didn't go to church or rather, it didn't mean anything till I was in gr 8 or gr 10- when massive trauma hit my family.

Even tho I believe, I don't always believe, I sit on the fence juggling the facts, reality, and spirituality. For me believing is a constant struggle, I constantly doubt. I have studied the Koran and other religious text but in the end. I rejected Christianity in first year and maintained that atheistic mindset till pieces of my life moved me back in line with God.

Sometimes I get really angry at God for the things in my life, I shout, I cry, I rage against the injustices I feel I've been put through. When someone in my family dies, I don't believe in God, I'm too angry.

It makes sense to me how most people feel about God, I've been in both camps. I think in the end these debates are sort of meaningless- people just get more confident in their beliefs, these debates don't suddenly make people Christian or not. God most certainly doesn't need me, an imperfect, ill tempered vicious tongued hypocritical Christian to defend Him.

Explaining God to people is like explaining colour to a blind man or music to the deaf: God is something to be experienced, He cannot be explained, cannot be ritualized, manipulated or compartmentalized into a revscene forum post.

I only post here because someone asked me to, and also because I think if people are to reject God they should do so because they've examined everything and made a choice. However, mass media makes this process an deceptively easy process. Google image God or anti God, you get witty phrases and funny pictures to post. Easy. It's much harder to finally be real and read from the source and ask questions. I don't think anyone will take me up on the coffee meetup, they simply want to make a stink about what they think they believe in and take off without any real commitment.

Ah the controversy, if only one knew the answer to religion every mystery will be solved.

But for now everything on Earth, life as we know it will always be a search for "Why we are inhabiting this life."

Religion is so of the past and quite frankly doesn't make sense to our time and age now.
Live life freely and be your own scientist!

Heaven is living and breathing and having the opportunity to live on this wonderful planet
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LOL. There are stupid brainwashed Christians, there are also a lot of stupid brainwashed Atheists/Agnostics.

I don't think the Muslim religion has much to do with terrorism, someone just hijacked the religion for their own intentions. If you are attacking Christians, leave the Muslims out of it, don't rely on just an easy cliche phrases to discredit me or what I believe in. Understand that some people also manage to hijack idiocy and claim it for their own as if they invented it...this happens irregardless of gender, upbringing, culture, and religion. ( Some people however do a better job of this than others. )

I don't go around asking non believers :
Were you raised stupid and taught to be ___________? Do you sleep in every Sunday and not do a lick of research before entering sensitive debates? If so, then whatever you have to say is invalidated and you are just brainwashed.

Of course not, It doesn't actually help anyone understand anything better 'cept that you are good at stereotyping things that you already believe in. Wow. Not very ground breaking is it? The point of these types of debates I think, is to understand things better and it's not really about winning, because no one wins, we just waste a lot of time on this thread and laugh at the amusing posts. Anyways, it's a gorgeous day outside so go and enjoy it. =)

this explains Catholicism really well

:speechless::failed:


If there was a bunch of cults that promoted belief in Unicorns, and people believed them, they were brainwashed and now believe in Unicorns.

If someone says. "Hold the fuck up, there are no Unicorns since there isn't a shred of evidence of their existence." They are not brainwashed.

There is no such thing as a brainwashed atheist.

Religulous. Worth the watch.

Saw it when it was shown at the Vancouver Film Festival. It was quite funny actually. They found all the funniest or most ignorant religious people to interview. Too bad none of that reflects the majority of believers nor does it reflect what any of those religions are about. It was just a funny documentary for me to watch, because it poked fun at religion based on some semi-facts and semi-ignorance.

I agree that most people just want to express their opinions here. Nobody in this thread really wants to take the time to research about Christianity, but debate solely on their opinions or what they've heard. All that is okay.

But if they did want true understanding of what Christianity is about, they'd have to take time to experience it first hand. Nobody wants to waste their time doing that right? :)

Thanks Pally777.

As pattern seeking animals, we like to visualize the world governed by the laws of cause and effect, so in essence, we can say that every action has a reaction based on our observation.

However, I fail to see how the above relates to the fairness of the reward and punishment ethical system Christianity proposes.

If there was an almighty God, he would know every time whether it would be heads or tails, just as he would know Adam would take the apple, the moment he was created.

Since God created everything, it's only fair that he should be responsible for everything. Freewill exists in our heads (as we ultimately do not understand how we act), but not in the almighty.

There are no atheists in foxholes

Traumatic events do cause all kinds of psychological damage.

So you think people should make their own choice after examining both sides of the coin. That said, if they reject God you don't believe they really took God in at any point because if they did they would never turn away. You're trying to come off like you're all for people making educated decisions but you dismiss them and their opinion if it doesn't support God, so typical.

This line pisses me off to no end because of how full of shit it is.

My father is a US Marine combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He took lives and lost men fighting along side him. He nearly lost his life from a mortar round landing right behind him, was awarded a Purple Heart, and spent months recovering in a hospital. He was an atheist before enlisting, an atheist in the service, and remains an atheist to this day. At no point did the thought of a god enter his mind.

Some other combat veterans with noted atheists beliefs: Ernest Hemingway, Pat Tillman, and Ted Williams. Joe Simpson author of Touching The Void referring to the moment he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone and with a broken leg, he states: '"I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife."

Not only that, there is a specific organization to recognize atheists in combat: the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers with over 200 members in the US

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

I'm glad to have a civilized and educated conversation.

Freewill and justice (similar to reward/punishment) isn't an easy concept to grasp and I'm still struggling.

You mentioned God created Adam and everything else, so he should be responsible. I would agree with that and he does take responsibility. First, I'm going to use a real world analogy about responsibility of creator/the created and then I'll explain how God takes full responsibility.

I would assume you and I were both created by our own parents. Are we the responsibility of our parents? Yes, but up to a certain point. When we were kids, parents would be responsible for us, but at a certain point (usually 18?) we are deemed responsible enough for our actions by law. Would you or anyone hold your parents responsible for what you do when you're an adult who is able to decide and reason? Your parents created you, taught you, raised you, but you are responsible for your own actions or what I'd call freewill, right? The same can be said of technology. We do not hold the person who created fire responsible for arson, right?

Now, God is more responsible than our parents in that He is responsible for you eternally. That's why, God knowing that we could never be perfectly righteous and never doing wrong, made a way to right our wrongs. He took responsibility by dying for the all the wrong we have/will done/do; this includes Adam's original sin.

This is what I call grace. We are responsible for our decisions/wrongs and the consequences, but God loves us like our parents do and has taken on full responsibility for the punishment. I don't deserve this gift, but he gives it to all of us freely. All we need to do is accept that He has done this for us through Jesus Christ.

I know my analogy isn't perfect, but I hope it conveys the general idea.

So, why does God allow innocent humans to die from the actions of others?

Can he explain why a single mother of 3 can die from the irresponsible actions of a drunk driver? I'm pretty sure she didn't choose to die, but the drunk driver chose to hop behind the wheel.

If God was responsible, he would tell us to stop fighting wars in his name. He would not live in some higher-up place, distant from all the suffering and strife. He would not tease us with "salvation" for all those "deemed worthy".

So God lives in Heaven by himself, leaving Earth (and its humans) to the domain of Satan. Seems more like shunning rather than accepting.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, it's good to share viewpoints.

My problem with the real world analogies is that they do not factor in the most important point of discussion here, the "almighty power" of God.

That is the key, this almighty entity cannot be compared to our parents or any human being as God is supposed to have omnipotent power, knows everything and can do anything, all the time.

This unique theoretical limitless power creates many problems:

1. In God's eyes, our action should be as certain and obvious as mathematics, he knew how his creations would act, the couple, the apple, the snake, all part of his plan. Does it make it fair then to punish us and not God himself?

2. Our discussion of the kindness of this God 'sacrificing his only son', or 'dying for us' is self-contradictory, as ideas such as scarcity and death only apply to finite beings and not the almighty.

At the end of the day, what I call grace is unconditional acceptance, not based on whether you believe in me or not, I'll still give you my best. No coercion, no rules to follow.