B.C. government on verge of stopping police from investigating themselves

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by TheNewGirl

I agree with this. I think Doctors should be externally audited though too.

The thing with external audit to doctors is, you can't really have an expertise in their science without being one.

[zulutango]

But civillians with no training or experience in dealing with what Cops do, are qualified? Never been in a life and death situation where someone was trying to kill you and had to decide to shoot or not shoot? Do you know that, unlike TV and movies, it is impossible to shoot the knife out of someone's hand, wound them in the arm or leg...hell, you are just lucky to hit them centre mass because of the stress you are undergoing ?

You also can't communicate with someone undergoing a mental health crisis and get them to nicely calm down. A 3 day training session I attended that was sponsored by the Schitzo Assn. told us that...and so did the actual Schitzo patients who were part of the training.....yet the family members who know this, insist that Police didn't try to talk to their violent, out of control family member who was attacking the Cops. The guy who tried to kill me and four others with a knife was exactly this and his mother went on a rampage against me and the Cops.

If you have never tried to safely arrest a small 90lb female drug addict in the throes of a violent episode, trying to not hurt her, but she doesn't feel any pain, so it requires 4 large Cops to manhandle her for 5 minutes to get her into the back of the Cop car, you shouldn't judge.

I had an uninformed member of the public yell at me and 5 others while we tried to arrest a man in a store parking lot. He was resisting, was punching at us, had been pepper sprayed ( with no effect) and then started kicking at us as we forced him up against a car to try to cuff him. He kicked me on the shins so I used my baton to strike the kicking leg to get him to stop...he did. The witness yelled police brutality and started taping us. The witness did not know that this same man had just brutally beaten a mentally and physically handicapped man who had refused to sell him anymore booze in a liquor store and he was doing his best to do the same to us.

All of the scenarios I have presented are from actual situations and similar ones have been splattered all mover the media with public outcry. Without any investigation or understanding of the real world dynamics of policing, let alone any form of legal due process the Cops are hung out to dry. Police are permitted by the criminal code to use force when needed and the job requires it. Very few violent people want to go quietly. If the force is excessive, then there should be reprocussions...but the determination should be made by somebody who is qualified and who knows what happens in the real world.

[StylinRed]

no offense zulu, but you seem to be too far on the defensive here, you're already questioning credentials/experience, relatability, etc. before there is even anyone to criticize (what if they recruited combat veterans among the commitee) there is more to investigate than merely the interaction between officer and detainee. conspiracy after the fact is also something that must be looked at (like the officers that were charged with lying just now) There are many factors to consider, when investigating, and many are capable of doing so, like how judges must consider many aspects
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i understand your view; its like 'how can you commentate on the hockey game when you don't even know how to play hockey' but obviously commentators/investigators will have to learn the game before the play

[zulutango]

No offence taken. The announcement said that they would only allow investigators with Police experience during the first 5 years. After that they would not be permitted. To train someone to investigate, in a classroom, without having hands-on real world experience, does not give the investigator the background and experience needed to make informed judgements. Reading a book on how to fly an airplane does not make you qualified to say if a pilot made the correct landing decision.

[nns]

I think you're reading it wrong. It says they'll allow ex-cops as investigators so long as they haven't served in BC in the last 5 yrs. IE, they can hire AB, ON, etc cops as investigators, in theory, immediately.
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[Glove]

maybe if the cops werent such pricks to everyone and anyone, and didnt start killing people when its 5 on 1,

there wouldnt be an issue

[geeknerd]

"Hey, we dont need civilians to investigate our fuck ups because they might fuck up."

[Phil@rise]

another thing that you gotta think of also in the comparison between docs lawyers and cops and the respective investigations they may be enduring for any potential wrong doing.
cops get payed while under investigation the rest don't

[zulutango]

Not true...some Cops are suspended without pay but I have never heard of a teacher, doctor, engineer, lawyer, stockbroker etc ever being suspended without pay while they investigate themselves. Unless someone is found guilty, they are supposed to be presumed innocent...and that includes Police. If you suspend them with no pay, how are they supposed to live while the investigation is being completed? Just because somebody accuses somebody of something, it doesn't automatically make them guilty, just accused.

[Phil@rise]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Not true...some Cops are suspended without pay but I have never heard of a teacher, doctor, engineer, lawyer, stockbroker etc ever being suspended without pay while they investigate themselves. Unless someone is found guilty, they are supposed to be presumed innocent...and that includes Police. If you suspend them with no pay, how are they supposed to live while the investigation is being completed? Just because somebody accuses somebody of something, it doesn't automatically make them guilty, just accused.

Docs don't work doc's don't make money its that simple same as lawyers. They are not payed a salary or hourly wage they are payed piece work

[RiceIntegraRS]

zulutango, what type of cases get investigated anyways?

1. The ones where cops use force when the suspect is obviously a threat to them, like wielding a knife or some type of weapon?

2. Cases like where the guy got tasered in the airport and died, or when the abbotsford man got kicked for no apparent reason other than moving a tad bit slow, or when a man was beaten by 2 cops for being accused of domestic violence and later found out it was the wrong person or when a Victoria man was kicked and punched to the ground when he was in no threat to a cop or anyone in the vicinity.

Cause in that # 2 column im about 75% sure all of them got away with basically a slap on the wrist. And you wonder why everyone aside from u are actually for this new Bill. But i could be wrong..........

And the cops that tasered the man in the airport are being charged for lying in there deposition i believe not for the act itself.

I should add that im aware that the main part of the arguement is whose gonna be doing the investigating. Well b4 it was themselves, your argument is that it should be people with atleast experience in the field, but i honestly think that if you had it your way the outcome in the cases being investigated wont change at all and thats the problem.

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Not true...some Cops are suspended without pay but I have never heard of a teacher, doctor, engineer, lawyer, stockbroker etc ever being suspended without pay while they investigate themselves. Unless someone is found guilty, they are supposed to be presumed innocent...and that includes Police. If you suspend them with no pay, how are they supposed to live while the investigation is being completed? Just because somebody accuses somebody of something, it doesn't automatically make them guilty, just accused.

hey, if they are fined for their actions/found guilty, do they have to give back the money they got while they were suspended w/ pay?