The HST revisited

[TheKingdom2000]

Yeah, I wasn't too convinced on the Restaurant thing. But, even if that were somewhat true, it still doesn't affect most of us.

I just want to gather as much info as possible because come voting time for the HST i'm going to send out a massive facebook message to all my friends outlining how the HST is beneficial to us.
And list the pro's and con's so people can really understand how the HST affects them.

I'm going to be really choked if people vote Yes to axe the HST (Or is it NO? to axe the HST, i'm confused about that). We'll lose $1.6billion instantly to the federal govt. plus the millions to get the pst/gst system back and the millions we already invested to change the pst/gst system to the HST system.

[TheKingdom2000]

One more question on the HST vote.

I read this,

The Recall and Initiative Act says the measure needs the support of 50 percent of registered voters—everyone on the voters list, not just those who vote—plus a majority of registered voters in two-thirds of the province's 85 constituencies.

So say there are 1 million registered voters in BC (just throwing out a number)
So for the vote to pass 500,001 people must vote to get rid of the HST?

So if only 700,000 registered voters come out and vote and 400,000 of them vote to get rid of the HST, that still won't be enough to get rid of it?

[Sp0r3]

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

[TheKingdom2000]

Originally Posted by Sp0r3

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

I had the same thought mentality as you before. The reality is, the smaller chain places will likely do this. But, the BIG chain stores will not. They are far more educated and have a better marketing team.

My friend works for Superstore and has told me that their costs are actually passed on to the customers. NOT because they want the customer to save, but because they want to take business away from their competitors.

Because of the extra money in Superstores pocket, they can afford to have more and better sales. Which will attract people to their store over Walmart lets say. She said they still pocket some of the extra cash back they get. But, there is a portion of that, that goes to reducing costs for us the consumer, in the form or reduced product costs and sales.

So for the big chain stores this is their thought mentality. So hopefully you'll notice more sales and better prices when you shop at the big box stores.

[q0192837465]

The difficult thing for most people is that it is hard to look beyond the personal level. Yes in theory HST is beneficial to all of us as a society in the long run. But in the short run it's not the the common people who will reap noticeable benefits, but large corps.
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[Gt-R R34]

Originally Posted by taylor192

The flaw isn't the system, its the people. People are more than capable of affecting change in our system, they chose not to so the minority gets heard.

no doubt thats true but our system also caters to the minority.

Anyways off topic -

HST - Vote and Be Heard.

[wstce92]

Originally Posted by Sp0r3

I totally understand the principles of HST which makes it a better than the GST/PST system we had before (in theory). But think about this. The current business owners who requires to pay the intermediate taxes are now free from the burden of extra costs. Will those savings be passed down to the consumers? I think not. Business owners are there to maximize their profit. If the consumer are willing still pay the same price as they did before the HST, the owners will not lower their prices. Which means business owners will get extra profit (as it reduced their cost). So how will the HST help reduce the burden of consumers? The answer is none. In the end, consumers get the short end of the stick and business owners get the red carpet treatment.

The trouble is that so many people fixate on "passing savings to the consumer" as some kind of literal, "you'll save a tonne of money".

As mx703 said, reductions DO occur, and he explained why pretty well. But one thing hindering reductions is the fact that while HST has saved businesses money, depending on sector: rising gas prices, rising food crop prices, impending minimum wage increase, etc has really put a damper on reductions for goods and services.

But back to what I wanted to say, the "savings to the consumer" isn't so much a finite, measurable, cash quantity, as it is the well being of the consumers. Now that businesses are saving money, like you said, they like to maximize profits, milk it for all it's worth. If the climate is good, they'll want to make the most of it, and that means expanding their buisness (more stores, larger stores, etc), increasing investments, hiring more employees (to handle more business), raising wages (to keep employees through the increase in business): All of that keeps people employeed, gets more people employeed, betters our economy.
Business owners aren't just going to sit on their extra earnings, they'll use it to make more. And that is where consumers like you and I benefit, jobs and higher paying jobs.
Just because you don't immediately benefit in your wallet does not mean this is bad policy, think about the future.
When businesses are taxed to hell and riddled with restrictions, THAT's when consumers will get the short end of the stick.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by mx703

I had the same thought mentality as you before. The reality is, the smaller chain places will likely do this. But, the BIG chain stores will not. They are far more educated and have a better marketing team.

My friend works for Superstore and has told me that their costs are actually passed on to the customers. NOT because they want the customer to save, but because they want to take business away from their competitors.

This is what people tend to overlook - competition. Assume every business is saving a couple bucks (whether via HST, or whatever) - if one doesn't pass the savings on to the customer, and his competitor does, then the competitor is going to get more business.

Originally Posted by q0192837465

The difficult thing for most people is that it is hard to look beyond the personal level. Yes in theory HST is beneficial to all of us as a society in the long run. But in the short run it's not the the common people who will reap noticeable benefits, but large corps.

It's NOT just big corps, though - I work for a small company (just me, another tech, the boss, and the boss's wife who does the books) and they LOVE the HST. Not only does it save them money, but it makes her life doing the accounting a TON easier. It's not just that it's HALF the paperwork; the PST paperwork itself was hideous, and now that's gone.

The other thing people overlook in their short-sighted, self-centered haste is that if it's good for business, it allows business to hire more people, or to pay their people higher wages. Someone complaining about the HST because he's unemployed needs to look a little more big-picture and realize this improves his chances of GETTING a job (assuming he's actually looking).

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Gt-R R34

no doubt thats true but our system also caters to the minority.

Anyways off topic -

HST - Vote and Be Heard.

Our system doesn't cater to the minority. The majority don't give a crap, look at voter turnout numbers, so when the minority chose to "vote and be heard" they get heard.

[TheNewGirl]

Originally Posted by mx703

One more question on the HST vote.

I read this,


So say there are 1 million registered voters in BC (just throwing out a number)
So for the vote to pass 500,001 people must vote to get rid of the HST?

So if only 700,000 registered voters come out and vote and 400,000 of them vote to get rid of the HST, that still won't be enough to get rid of it?

Yes. 50% of the resgistered voters have to come out against it, not 50% of the people who vote. As I understand it.

[Gt-R R34]

Originally Posted by taylor192

Our system doesn't cater to the minority. The majority don't give a crap, look at voter turnout numbers, so when the minority chose to "vote and be heard" they get heard.

Disagree -

But Like i said again it's off-topic. If you want to discuss PM me. I don't mind a debate.

This is bout the HST.

[Glove]

why do you always post debateable topics about current events? Is work really that boring? You need to lurk the fucked up shit thread more

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Glove

why do you always post debateable topics about current events? Is work really that boring? You need to lurk the fucked up shit thread more

Some of us enjoy topics that elicit a better response than:
Mad tight whip yo
Moar bewbs
Go Canucks
...

If you enjoy that, as you point out there are lost of threads for it.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Soundy

It's NOT just big corps, though - I work for a small company (just me, another tech, the boss, and the boss's wife who does the books) and they LOVE the HST. Not only does it save them money, but it makes her life doing the accounting a TON easier. It's not just that it's HALF the paperwork; the PST paperwork itself was hideous, and now that's gone.

So has your company decreased pricing to clients as a result of the cost savings from HST? If it makes the accountant/book-keepers job way easier, one could argue that their wages should also be decreased or at least the business' cost allocated to this task should be decreased... it doesn't make sense to pay somebody the same or more, to do half the work does it?

Like the above poster, and I'm sure many others, I am skeptical that the cost savings realized by businesses will be passed on to consumers in a reasonable amount of time, and in a way that will offset the increased cost to the consumer in a way that is easy to see.

ie. restaurants: I shouldn't be expected to tip 15-20% any more now because I am paying an extra 7% on my food bill due to HST, which is in turn helping the restaurant save money and time at the operational level, which allows the restaurant to pay the servers and waiters more than minimum wage as a result so now my tip can be 5-10% instead. Does it work like this? Obviously no, but why shouldn't it?

The other thing people overlook in their short-sighted, self-centered haste is that if it's good for business, it allows business to hire more people, or to pay their people higher wages. Someone complaining about the HST because he's unemployed needs to look a little more big-picture and realize this improves his chances of GETTING a job (assuming he's actually looking).

The problem I see with this view is that it's TOO big-pictured, the polar opposite of the short-sighted self-centered haste. If businesses save money, you are assuming that they are going to WANT to hire more peope, or WANT to pay their existing staff higher wages. What if they don't? Then all of a sudden many of the benefits of HST to this greater good of the economy no longer exists.

Personally, I am less than impressed with how I have to pay more to eat out mainly... it is a luxury and we are now eating out less as a result of it. We can afford to if we wanted to, but we choose not to more often now. Aside from that, and what I posted below, HST has not really impacted my lifestyle in a significant manner.

"Another advantage of going to HST is that tax will no longer be payable on most used goods purchased privately. However, used vehicles, aircraft and boats purchased privately (not from an HST registrant) would still be subject to provincial sales tax, which is being increased from 7% to 12%. If an HST registrant purchases a used vehicle privately, the 12% PST paid on the transfer of the vehicle is not recoverable as an input tax credit."

HST also screwed me when buying a private pre-owned car. The tagline back then was that HST would not apply to anything that GST was not applied to, so used cars should be completely tax free now... except used car dealerships would now be at a significant disadvantage and the province would lose a significant chunk of "free money", so instead of paying only 7% PST on private sale used cars we have to pay 12% PST now, extra $1000 out of my pocket. Having to pay sales tax on privately bought items that have already been taxed by the original consumer is a big enough crock on its own, this INCREASE in PST only rubs salt into the wounds and reeks of a cash grab. I don't care if its called PST/HST/whatever, all I know is I had to pay an extra 5% for no good reason other than a pure cash grab.

I would not mind HST at all if all of the previous equivalent GST and PST exemptions applied the same way; all of the cost savings to business and government would still be seen equally but I'm sure then that the government will not get their share of the $ (see example above) and this is the major reason why I am opposed to it.

[TheNewGirl]

^

My business hasn't actually lowered our prices. BUT we haven't had to increase our prices in the face of rising product and labour costs. Without the HST we would be doing that.

[RacingMetro92]

Looks like they're changing up the HST a bit.

Families will get "transition cheques" of $175 with children under 18.

HST goes down from 12% to 10% by 2014

Corporate Taxes go up to 12% from 10%

SOURCE: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/the...204/story.html

So does this change anything? I'm still pretty on the fence about the vote, but I can still see why the HST is both good and bad. I wonder if this will sway some voters.

[TheNewGirl]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...t-changes.html

This is exactly what I wanted them to do and effectively remedies my concerns with the tax.

I got to participate in one of the phone in round tables with the minister of finance and I'm really glad to see that the feed back from those meetings clearly was heard by the government.

[gars]

Originally Posted by UFO

The problem I see with this view is that it's TOO big-pictured, the polar opposite of the short-sighted self-centered haste. If businesses save money, you are assuming that they are going to WANT to hire more peope, or WANT to pay their existing staff higher wages. What if they don't? Then all of a sudden many of the benefits of HST to this greater good of the economy no longer exists.

The problem with your argument, is that all you can see is Businesses making money of the customers. You forget that Businesses need to compete to survive.

Do you know how Walmart has expanded so much across the states? It's because they are able to offer low prices which takes out competition. If they can lower prices, they will because the guy next door won't be able to offer the same price. If through HST - they are able to lower prices even further, they will. I'm not going to get into an argument about big box corporations, or how Walmart underpays their employees - but they're the biggest example of how lower prices benefits the companies.

[Mr.HappySilp]

What I don't like about the whole tax thing is for example I just order a laptop off dell.ca it was on sale for $1300 with tax it is around $1500. If I just go to the states and buy it I could save myself $200 lol.

[Walperstyle]

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!

[endless402]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

What I don't like about the whole tax thing is for example I just order a laptop off dell.ca it was on sale for $1300 with tax it is around $1500. If I just go to the states and buy it I could save myself $200 lol.

sure u can use it in the states but you'll get taxed on the way back unless you mean illegally importing it back


there are lots of illegal things you can do to avoid tax...

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Walperstyle

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!

I would come if only it is not so cold.

[TheNewGirl]

Originally Posted by Walperstyle

I will get failed and hated for this post. But many of you should come to Alberta like I did.

$70,000+/year wages
No provincial Tax
No Air-Care emissions BS (tune all you want)
No ICBC (I pay about 1/3 the cost for insurance out here)

I understand many of you care about the environment, but what drives a province is Industry. On a global scale, its all about 'getting the other guys money'. Vancouver has way too many consumer jobs, and not enough industry.

Cheers!

I think the glory days of Alberta are slowly coming to an end though. I anticipate you'll have a sales tax inside of the next handful of years.

[2damaxmr2]

Right... Go troll somewhere else.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by gars

The problem with your argument, is that all you can see is Businesses making money of the customers. You forget that Businesses need to compete to survive.

I forgot nothing. The whole point of business IS to make money off consumers, otherwise they would be called charities. Your basis of competition is based on money and dollars only, but level of service, quality of product, these are all things that need to be factored into the competition equation.

Do you know how Walmart has expanded so much across the states? It's because they are able to offer low prices which takes out competition. If they can lower prices, they will because the guy next door won't be able to offer the same price. If through HST - they are able to lower prices even further, they will. I'm not going to get into an argument about big box corporations, or how Walmart underpays their employees - but they're the biggest example of how lower prices benefits the companies.

Your example is as one sided as mine. You are saying Walmart lowers their prices to knock competition out because they know that the competition cannot match their pricing (unlevel playing field).

With HST, if Walmart can reduce the price of a product 2%, so can Superstore/Safeway/Whole Foods/Capers/Canadian Tire, so MAYBE there are savings to be seen by the consumer. But does this guarantee that they will? No way. Why would Walmart lower their pricing when they know everyone else can do they same thing, what incentive is there to decrease their profit margin when everybody else can offer the same price decrease?