The HST revisited
 

So. Pigs fly.

As a consumer I loathe and hate the HST, I fall into the very small margin of people though that's hit the worst by it though. As someone who does the books for small business though... I have to admit (grudgingly), it's made life easier and more importantly, it has, I admit, positively impacted the financial well being of the companies I work for. (Let it never be said that I can't eat crow now and then).

Now. I don't think the system is flawless. There are big glaring differences between it's stated goals and how it functions that most people (unless they're doing book keeping or accounting for a large company, probably aren't aware of). And I still think things need to be addressed about these issues, but with the exception of claimable caps for large corps, I think they're largely PR problems on the government's part.

The government said this was going to be a revenue neutral tax... it turns out that's untrue. But unlike our previous government, Christie Clark's actually asking people what they want to do with that revenue (I'm pretty sure there's still a thing for feedback on the provincial gov's web site if you haven't already sent in some input but even better, take 10 minutes to write an email to your MLA).

Any how, recently I was looking over some of the new studies that have come out about the HST, which I hope everyone else will do the same.

Someone sent me this video which while it's about 15 minutes long, has some useful information. Now, the guy's clearly biased so, critical thinking caps on, but he does make some very good points.

There are income taxes at the end of the year which take into account my income. There are also taxes which are charged for certain items because analysis was done that I should be paying more or less for those items. There are also fees, also based on income and other factors, for things such as gasoline or liquor, which are indirect ways of taxing people and generating revenue.

The HST charges every person of every income, for every good they buy, all the time. I don't need to read anymore about this to know that this is not fair.

That guy sounds like Seth Rogen.

If they show how the extra money is being used then I maybe for it but if they just go out buying ipads for everyone or use it for bigger bonuses why should I be for the HST?

That's where stand too. I want to know exactly where the profits are going. Christie Clark's made a few suggestions of things the government's willing to explore (I still favor dropping the tax by 1%) but I wish they would pick one BEFORE the vote.

I'd rather drop income tax than drop sales tax. I know spending stimulates the economy - but in our culture of credit cards, I'd rather be encouraged to save my money.

I agree, a drop in income tax would be far better for the individual. I mean, if you don't consume as much as the other guy in your same tax bracket you are actually saving more.

problem is, people don't 'see' that tax savings.

drop HST by a percent and everyone notices immediately.

this has been the problem forever. What is better for you, will not win you any votes.

I know. People just don't understand what the hell is going on.
I swear, they turn a blind eye on purpose.

LOL...I have said this from the very beginning.

Get ready. Gonna solve some problems.

Can you see Gordo giving this speech? He'd still be premier.

Hst. Boom! Gotta do it. A billion dollars and change for the province.

HST is gonna affect more goods than our current tax system. So, right now a lot of goods are getting hit with 12%, and some are only 5%. What we're gonna do is make the HST 10% and nuke the PST. Savings for business. Savings for consumers. No annoying PST returns.

Done.

Send the MLA's out to sell it to the people and anytime someone bitches...you have "but its 10% which means you SAVE when you buy the following items: list em out"

Fuck. I should run as premier.

That video has its own bias thats a little disturbing too.

Like when he talks about people buying new homes and how no body goes and buys a brand new home or something to that affect, so discussing the tax ramifications are useless.

Um, condos? People, regular people buy them all the time. Shit, we bought a shrink wrapped townhouse and we're broke.

Its at 8:23.

And to add: Of course its not revenue neutral! I'm a contractor. Used to charge 5% on top for GST, now charge 12%...more than double.

Funny thing is...I look at the sub-total as my number, but my clients look at Total. My business has not changed. I don't get to keep any tax. Yes, I get to rebate my HST on inputs, but realistically, all that is is pre-paying the HST that I submit. I never look at the final total. Not my money. But its my clients money, and all they look at is how much the check is.

So this wonderful change that is supposed to make me all kinds of money? Nope.

Yes, I don't have to eat PST anymore. Cool. Let's look at that:

Small job...$5000...plus tax.

Old system:

sub-$5000
GST-250
Total-5250

Let's say my materials are 35%. And lets assume I paid PST on everything.
materials-1750
PST-122.5

So I "ate" $122.5. Technically, I passed it on to my client, but its hard to say, because of the nature of a quoted job.

New system:

sub-5000
HST-600
Total-$5600

Same materials: 1750
No PST(charged hst of $210, but claim it back)

So, I "save" $122.50, but it costs my client an extra $350! That can be the difference in whether they do the project or not.

Thanks governments of BC and Canada. Stop by and help my business anytime!

The main flaw of our system is that -

It lets the minority dictate what the majority wants.

200 people kicking, screaming, yelling and pounding on the govenment long enough, the government will eventually cave and give them what they want while the rest of the 2 million that doesn't want to say anything but really thinks thats bullshit gets utterly shafted but don't speak up.

That's how life goes, unless the unjust is to great then that's what happening in Middle East and that took 40 years.

But off topic -

So If you want or don't want this HST. Vote On it.

Oh I agree, as I said, the video is clearly bias.

It DOES though present some interesting counter points.

But ultimately I think the problem is that the general public doesn't interact with the HST in a way that allows them to understand exactly what it does.

As I said, I was staunchly against it. It does cost me a few hundred extra dollars a year (especially coming up to the summer time when my costs are at their peak) and that sucks. If I didn't have the job that I have I would probably still be staunchly against it.

But, working with the input and output credits daily, and seeing how it takes the burden of paying that huge PST bill every month off of my company's budget and allows me to use more of the money I take in, I understand how it better serves especially small businesses from a cash flow and cash savings perspective.

Either reduce the HST or reduce income tax.

The flaw isn't the system, its the people. People are more than capable of affecting change in our system, they chose not to so the minority gets heard.

What is not "fair" about that? Everyone should pay for what they use, that is the most fair - especially for choices like eating at restaurants which is a luxury, not a staple. If you can afford to eat out, you can afford to pay your fair share - my taxes should not subsidize that choice.

Do not take that comment 100%, tiered income tax should still exist so the better off in society subsidize the worse off. I'm talking about subsidizing people's choices, especially luxuries.

First of all, this is false: as with all other taxes, there are exemptions.

Second, the vast majority of items you bought before already had the SAME level of tax on them (5% GST + 7% PST). There are a RELATIVELY SMALL number of items that were charged GST and were PST-exempt before, that you now pay an extra 7% on. One thing that's also overlooked is that anything that had PST but no GST before... now has no HST.

Third, a consumption tax is ultimately more fair than an income tax: you buy something, you pay; you don't buy, you don't pay. Buy something cheaper, pay less tax. Go ballin', pay more tax.

Income taxes ding you whether you're buying things or not.

There are ONLY TWO downsides to the HST I have come across. And only one of them affect me.

1) paying more when you go out and buy shit. ie. food/clothes (groceries still exempted)
2) restaurants losing money
I read a report of restaurants losing business because of the new HST and their revenues are down. I also read something about some other small businesses that the HST has negatively affected them.

Are there anymore I missed?

Otherwise, the benefits seems to outweigh both of those for me, especially since #2 doesn't directly affect me since I do not own a restaurant.

When have you ever not had to pay PST on clothing? Unless you were one of those idiots who say you're buying clothing for a 14 yr old, and trying to scam your way out of it...

I honestly believe a lot of The Restaurant Industry's woes with the HST are self-inflected. The minute it was announced, their spokespeople were all over the media proclaiming how this would jack prices and people would be staying away in droves, and... well... it happened a little bit.

But when's the last time they raised their prices by 7%? Did people avoid eating out then? Did the industry die a horrible death when the GST first came in at 7%? Umm... no.

Seriously, if they'd just kept their collective mouths shut, the vast majority of people would never have noticed the difference (especially if they didn't print "HST" in HUGE letters at the bottom of the bill) and they'd have seen little or NO impact.

Think about it: what did you pay for a meal out before the HST came in? Come on now, tell me quickly... can't do it? Okay, now what do you pay for the EXACT SAME MEAL at the SAME RESTAURANT today, with the HST? Can't tell that either without looking? How many people do YOU know who always order the same thing at the same place every time they eat there, and compare prices one visit to the next? You can cause more than a 7% difference in your own bill by ordering your Caesar Keg-sized instead of regular. Or by getting a salad instead of fries.

The ONLY time it's even been obvious to me was that I used to be able to get a McDouble, small fries and drink with a $5 bill... now I have to scrounge an extra 10 cents or so. Minor inconvenience.

If the Industry hadn't been bleating about how it was going to bankrupt people to eat out, NOBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE, OR CARED. SELF-INFLICTED WOUND.

I don't think it's fair to blame the problems with the restaurant industry solely on HST. The new drinking and driving laws have also adversely affected their sales.

Realistically, when I go out to dinner, I'm not going to eat less because of an increase in tax. However, I will drink nothing if I'm being threatened to have my car taken away.

http://www.hospitalitybusinessnews.c...rants-and-bars

Kev

The restaurant industry expanded as much if not more than the real estate industry, creating a bubble that was bound to be popped by a recession. People eat out when they have extra money to do so, and right now money is tighter even without the HST - the HST and drinking laws just serve as good scapegoats for an industry due for a correction.

Either way the gov only wants our money one way or another.

About the whole restaurant thing. I think is totally BS they blame it on the HST. I use to eat at this place at crystal mall (food court) before HST they charge about $5.50 for a meal. As soon as HST came in place they charge me $7.50! I do not think HST is an increase of $2. So I stop going there and eat more often at home. Don't blame HST for the lost sales when business decide to jack up their price.

It's funny you mention that. A place I frequent also did the same thing. Once July 1st hit, they upped their pricing across the board about 10%. When I questioned it, they tried to blame the HST. Ridiculous. Stopped going there.

Kev

Funny thing - I'm sure a lot of those restaurants in Crystal Mall don't pay all their taxes - Just like how there are a few restaurants I've been to that will take the tax off if you pay cash.

And with the HST - people actually save 5% of taxes with Alcohol - I know Restaurants blame the new drinking/driving laws for lower alcohol sales, but shouldn't they be benefiting from higher sales before those new laws were put into place?