What is wrong with people??

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

I don't know about you, but I can spot a tailgater no matter what speed the cars are travelling.

As for making it easier to catch drunks - er.. no. Roadblocks work well for that.


The idea is to crack down on the dangerous acts that make speed dangerous. You can't simply remove the speed and expect everything else to go away automatically.

We all hear stories like "He was speeding to beat the light", "He was speeding to make that left turn before the oncoming cars got there", "He was speeding in and out of traffic and hit the back of a bus".

The common theme here is that another action a) encouraged the driver to speed and 2) caused the collision

If you crack down on the weaving, tailgating, unsafe turns, etc... you remove the tendancy for people to speed into those situations, and they naturally will refrain from "speeding up to make the turn, beat the light, etc..."

Crack down on the actions that make speed dangerous and you're left with drivers who will make much better decisions on when it is safe to speed.

Do you realize you include speeding in every "situation" that you talk about? So, you could say the police are going after the common denominator!

If you crack down on the weaving, tailgating, unsafe turns, etc... you remove the tendancy for people to speed into those situations, and they naturally will refrain from "speeding up to make the turn, beat the light, etc..."

__________________________________________________ ____________

Crack down on the actions that make speed dangerous and you're left with drivers who will make much better decisions on when it is safe to speed.

How about cracking down on speeding that MAKES those other actions more dangerous?

[Spidey]

idiot driver's will always be idiots. at least if they slow down, or fear being pulled over, the damages caused by their idiotic driving could possibly be lessened. OR, if they keep getting speeding tickets/excessive tickets, they won't be behind the wheel much longer with the new laws.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Simnut

Do you realize you include speeding in every "situation" that you talk about? So, you could say the police are going after the common denominator!

How about cracking down on speeding that MAKES those other actions more dangerous?

So as long as people only weave in and out of other cars while doing the speed limit, you're ok with that?

As long as people only tailgate while doing the speed limit, you're ok with that?


You can be aggressive without speeding and you can speed without being aggressive. Remove the aggression from the road and you won't have to worry about calm, cool and collected speeders.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by BlueG2

idiot driver's will always be idiots. at least if they slow down, or fear being pulled over, the damages caused by their idiotic driving could possibly be lessened. OR, if they keep getting speeding tickets/excessive tickets, they won't be behind the wheel much longer with the new laws.

In your example you are suggesting that if they change one behaviour, then the impact of their actions will be lessened.

Why must that behaviour modification always be aimed at speed?

Using your logic if they feared being pulled over for tailgating, running lights, making unsafe turns, etc.. then the impacts of their actions would be reduced, no?

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

In your example you are suggesting that if they change one behaviour, then the impact of their actions will be lessened.

Why must that behaviour modification always be aimed at speed?

Using your logic if they feared being pulled over for tailgating, running lights, making unsafe turns, etc.. then the impacts of their actions would be reduced, no?

No...

Speed kills......add speed to any "stupid" driving , the more of a chance someone is going to get killed or injured.

Extreme example........would you want a tailgater rear ending you doing 50km/h or 100km/h?

Would you rather hit a rock wall at 50km/h or 100km/h?

Would you rather have someone cut you off while your doing 50km/h or 100km/h?

Would you, as a pedestrian, rather be hit by a car doing 10km/h or 30km/h?

Would you or the other vehicle involved .....in ANY accident situation want to be going slower or faster when the accident occurs?

Speed kills......simple.

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

So as long as people only weave in and out of other cars while doing the speed limit, you're ok with that?

Nope....don't think I said that either........can you show me where you got that from?

Originally Posted by sebberry

As long as people only tailgate while doing the speed limit, you're ok with that?

Nope....don't think I said that either........can you show me where you got that from?

Originally Posted by sebberry

You can be aggressive without speeding and you can speed without being aggressive. Remove the aggression from the road and you won't have to worry about calm, cool and collected speeders.

Oh, I would still worry about calm, cool and collected speeders....when they screw up....and their speed exponentially increase the chance of ME getting hurt or worse.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Simnut

No...
Speed kills......add speed to any "stupid" driving , the more of a chance someone is going to get killed or injured.

Add stupid driving to speed, then something happens. Add stupid driving to someone driving at the limit, something still happens.

Originally Posted by Simnut

Extreme example........would you want a tailgater rear ending you doing 50km/h or 100km/h?

That depends, how fast am I going?

Originally Posted by Simnut

Would you rather hit a rock wall at 50km/h or 100km/h?

What's causing me to hit that wall? Doing 100kph in an 80kph zone won't somehow cause a rock wall to shoot up through the tarmac.

Originally Posted by Simnut

Would you rather have someone cut you off while your doing 50km/h or 100km/h?

I'd need to know the specifics of the situation. If I'm doing 100kph in an 80kph zone with traffic around, it is probably so I can maintain pace with open space in an adjacent lane and thus greatly reducing the possibility of another driver being lined up in such a way that their lane change would "cut me off".

Originally Posted by Simnut

Would you, as a pedestrian, rather be hit by a car doing 10km/h or 30km/h?

I as a pedestrian will wait for the car to stop before walking out in front of it.

Originally Posted by Simnut

Would you or the other vehicle involved .....in ANY accident situation want to be going slower or faster when the accident occurs?

I wouldn't want to be in a collision at any speed. That's why I drive in such a way that reduces my chance of being in one, even if that means going with the flow of "speeding" traffic so as to maintain adequate space around my vehicle.

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Add stupid driving to speed, then something happens. Add stupid driving to someone driving at the limit, something still happens.



That depends, how fast am I going?


What's causing me to hit that wall? Doing 100kph in an 80kph zone won't somehow cause a rock wall to shoot up through the tarmac.


I'd need to know the specifics of the situation. If I'm doing 100kph in an 80kph zone with traffic around, it is probably so I can maintain pace with open space in an adjacent lane and thus greatly reducing the possibility of another driver being lined up in such a way that their lane change would "cut me off".


I as a pedestrian will wait for the car to stop before walking out in front of it.



I wouldn't want to be in a collision at any speed. That's why I drive in such a way that reduces my chance of being in one, even if that means going with the flow of "speeding" traffic so as to maintain adequate space around my vehicle.

All I can say is......wow.......

[sebberry]

You're just trying to prove that speed kills by saying "speed kills" and completely ignoring the specifics of the situation.

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

You're just trying to prove that speed kills by saying "speed kills" and completely ignoring the specifics of the situation.

K......answer this.....honestly, with just a yes or no.

Does adding speed to any traffic accident increase the chance of someone getting hurt or injured ? Yes, or no?

It's a simple and obvious (to most of us ) answer. Don't add all the other "variables" into it...I agree..they can be a "cause" of an accident. I am dealing with speed only as we are talking about why speed limits are what they are.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by sebberry

I completely understand that it is about stopping distance being multiplied when you "speed", but that arguement completely ignores other equally important factors such as where the pedestrian might actually slip off the curb, what the speed limit is, etc...

It also ignores the fact that the "speeding" driver is better able to pop into the adjacent lane if he's speeding to maintain pace with a gap between vehicles in that lane.


It's pure drivel spewed out by the "speed kills" side designed to evoke an emotional response from the driver.

Notice how in these things it's always something cute like a kid or a pony that runs into the road, never a garbage truck backing out of an alley where upon impact only the driver of the speeding car would likely be injured.

Why do you think they do this? Because most drivers believe themselves to be invincible and don't think they'll ever run into the side of a garbage truck. Hence the introduction of emotion. Now it goes from "I'll never hit the side of a garbage truck" to "I could kill someone's kid, I better slow down!".

Why are you in such a hurry, anyway?

[zulutango]

He's not in a hurry....everybody else is just going too slow !

[sebberry]

Actually, most people are already speeding, I'm just trying to keep out of a crash. But I'd prefer to be able to drive defensively without worrying about Mr. Zulutango asking for my papers.

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Actually, most people are already speeding, I'm just trying to keep out of a crash.

Thats why they are clamping down on speeding!! If they stop all the other speeders, then you won't have to worry about speeding either!!!

[sebberry]

How do you think the public would react if the government made illegal something 80% of the people do every day, mostly without any problems?

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by sebberry

How do you think the public would react if the government made illegal something 80% of the people do every day, mostly without any problems?

Oh sorry...my mistake.....I thought speeding was illegal!

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by sebberry

How do you think the public would react if the government made illegal something 80% of the people do every day, mostly without any problems?

Smoking marijuana?

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by sebberry

How do you think the public would react if the government made illegal something 80% of the people do every day, mostly without any problems?

Actually...some of the things some people do are 100% illegal 100% of the time. The best thing is to remove all restraints and restictions and let everyone do whatever they want, any time any place. That way nobody can complain.

[Simnut]

Originally Posted by zulutango

Actually...some of the things some people do are 100% illegal 100% of the time. The best thing is to remove all restraints and restictions and let everyone do whatever they want, any time any place. That way nobody can complain.

Oh oh....can you say "opening Pandora's box"?

[sebberry]

An informal review by the RCMP North District Traffic Services of a traffic stop for excessive speeding on July 18th in Telkwa, prompted the RCMP to reverse the impoundment of the vehicle involved. The driver now faces the lesser offence of speeding with the impoundment being rescinded.

[...]

RCMP rescind vehicle impoundment in favour of driver


Interesting how there's a 2km/hr margin of error on a radar device, yet visual estimation is accepted without question.

[Spidey]

sebberry,

I cannot describe in words how much of a moron you are. I hope for your sake, you are just being devil's advocate, and don't truly believe in the things you are saying. Yes, you could technically add "stupidity" to any of those driving variables, but how the hell are you going to measure that? "you have a ticket for stupidity, now take this IQ test for verification". ummm ok.. Speed is attributed to the degree of damage as a result of an accident. period. No one here "pro speeding" can even deny that. So like I said earlier, 4 effing pages ago, you speed you get a ticket. You don't like it? Tough. You have a choice whether you a)want to drive b)stay within the legal limits c)speed and risk getting a ticket.

Unless a cop is having a bad day, you won't get a ticket for going 10km over the limit in the city. Even on highways, you won't get a ticket for going 10-15 over. So those who have gotten tickets, most likely were going 15+, which IMO deserve it. I have never gotten a ticket going 60km in the city, even with a cop behind me. The times I have gotten tickets were going 70ish on marine drive and 80 on 6 road. both well deserved and I was lucky the RCMP member didn't give me an excessive ticket when I was doing 80 in what was technically a 30km on the bend on 6 road.

If the limits were raised from 50 to 60 in the city, then people will be pushing 70. likewise with Highways... People always try to push boundaries/rules.. It is human nature.

[sebberry]

BlueG2 - by your own admission you are a more of a safety risk than I am, so no need for the name calling. I've never suggested that someone should be permitted to drive at 80kph in a 30kph zone.


As for measuring stupidity - you don't need to IQ test anyone. It's pretty easy to spot a tailgater. Pretty easy to spot someone weaving in and out of traffic. Pretty easy to spot people not making safe turns or failing to use their turn signals.


A big part of what makes "speed" dangerous is the rush to complete a maneuver. Quick, darty lane changes completed in one blink of the turn signal with little space around the vehicles at 10km/hr over the limit is far more dangerous than taking your time to perform the maneuver slowly and cautiously at the same speed.

I suppose you can look at it two ways - speed makes those actions more dangerous or those actions makes speed more dangerous. If you clamp down on the speeders, you still have drivers performing dangerous acts. If you clamp down on the dangerous driving, you can safely have higher travel speeds which translates into quicker more efficient driving.


You're also overlooking the fact that raising the speed limit by x amount does not automatically equate to drivers travelling at x+10. What it does translate into are higher levels of voluntary compliance with the posted speed limit due to the limit being set more appropriately for the road. It's a fact that a driver's speed is subconsciously affected by the type of road they are on.

Finally, if what you say is true and a cop is unlikely to ticket someone for doing 10kph over the limit in the city or 15kph over the limit on the freeway, why make it illegal to do so? All you're doing is essentially criminalizing something that most people are doing safely every day.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by sebberry

BlueG2 - by your own admission you are a more of a safety risk than I am, so no need for the name calling. I've never suggested that someone should be permitted to drive at 80kph in a 30kph zone.


As for measuring stupidity - you don't need to IQ test anyone. It's pretty easy to spot a tailgater. Pretty easy to spot someone weaving in and out of traffic. Pretty easy to spot people not making safe turns or failing to use their turn signals.


A big part of what makes "speed" dangerous is the rush to complete a maneuver. Quick, darty lane changes completed in one blink of the turn signal with little space around the vehicles at 10km/hr over the limit is far more dangerous than taking your time to perform the maneuver slowly and cautiously at the same speed.

I suppose you can look at it two ways - speed makes those actions more dangerous or those actions makes speed more dangerous. If you clamp down on the speeders, you still have drivers performing dangerous acts. If you clamp down on the dangerous driving, you can safely have higher travel speeds which translates into quicker more efficient driving.


You're also overlooking the fact that raising the speed limit by x amount does not automatically equate to drivers travelling at x+10. What it does translate into are higher levels of voluntary compliance with the posted speed limit due to the limit being set more appropriately for the road. It's a fact that a driver's speed is subconsciously affected by the type of road they are on.

Finally, if what you say is true and a cop is unlikely to ticket someone for doing 10kph over the limit in the city or 15kph over the limit on the freeway, why make it illegal to do so? All you're doing is essentially criminalizing something that most people are doing safely every day.

Without going into details of my speeding infractions, like I said, I accepted my mistake, paid for it, and learned from it. The point I was making was that I did not blame anyone but myself for it.

How are you going to measure tailgating? We both know that EVERY single person who gets a "tailgating" ticket will fight it in court, because there is NO way for a police officer to judge the distance objectively. There are also 100000000 variables that could attribute to one vehicle coming within a certain distance to another. Think about how much easier it is to nab a speeder, than a tailgater. I am sure people get tickets for wreckless driving, not signalling etc. When you are driving, how many people do you see weaving/not signalling/tailgating compared to speeding? Everyone speeds right? So why not make an example of them? It is easier to shoot a barrel of fish.

Don't get me wrong though, I totally think wreckless drivers that weave in and out and don't signal/ those who are oblivious to their surroundings, should be ticketed/off the road. At the same time, it is not hard to abide by the speed limit. I don't think cops ignore wreckless drivers, it is just that you don't hear about them, and they aren't as prevalent than speeders. I am sure if a cop saw a wreckless driver, they would pull them over, period.


I may not have any stats to prove it, but those who speed excessively seem to be the same type of people who are in a rush, and those who are in a rush generally are the ones weaving/tailgating/not signalling..


Lastly, whether ICBC or the city wants to admit it, issuing speeding tickets is a money grab. But imo, it is fair, because speeding is your own choice...

[underscore]

Originally Posted by BlueG2

sebberry,

I cannot describe in words how much of a moron you are. I hope for your sake, you are just being devil's advocate, and don't truly believe in the things you are saying. Yes, you could technically add "stupidity" to any of those driving variables, but how the hell are you going to measure that? "you have a ticket for stupidity, now take this IQ test for verification". ummm ok.. Speed is attributed to the degree of damage as a result of an accident. period. No one here "pro speeding" can even deny that. So like I said earlier, 4 effing pages ago, you speed you get a ticket. You don't like it? Tough. You have a choice whether you a)want to drive b)stay within the legal limits c)speed and risk getting a ticket.

Unless a cop is having a bad day, you won't get a ticket for going 10km over the limit in the city. Even on highways, you won't get a ticket for going 10-15 over. So those who have gotten tickets, most likely were going 15+, which IMO deserve it. I have never gotten a ticket going 60km in the city, even with a cop behind me. The times I have gotten tickets were going 70ish on marine drive and 80 on 6 road. both well deserved and I was lucky the RCMP member didn't give me an excessive ticket when I was doing 80 in what was technically a 30km on the bend on 6 road.

If the limits were raised from 50 to 60 in the city, then people will be pushing 70. likewise with Highways... People always try to push boundaries/rules.. It is human nature.

Does the speed limit actually drop to 30, or is it simply one of those yellow speed signs? I thought the yellow ones are only recommendations and not actual limits.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by underscore

Does the speed limit actually drop to 30, or is it simply one of those yellow speed signs? I thought the yellow ones are only recommendations and not actual limits.

it was yellow.. I wouldn't know whether those are recommended or not.. regardless, I would never go that fast in that area again