Soldered Alarm connections??

[tiger_handheld]

What does it mean?
Is it standard practice or value-add from certain shops?
Whats the advantage over normal non soldered connections?




Thanks guys!

[godwin]

vs wire tap connectors?

It depends on the installer... soldering means you cannot reverse it easily, however it is less susceptible to nvh. It also depends on the installer's skills and tools.. eg do they use a electric wire stripper (which prevents nicks).. because if they screw up.. the wire harness is toast. Oh and the whole argument is bunk if the particular car has a connector for the alarm module anyways.

I think you posted this in the wrong section.

[dangonay]

Solder is the worst thing you can use to connect wires/terminals. Crimp connections are far better. There are some specific circumstances where solder can be preferred, but alarms, stereos and vehicle wiring do not fall into those areas.

Solder connections are MORE susceptible to NVH and are less reliable where vibration or movement occurs.
Posted via RS Mobile

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by godwin

vs wire tap connectors?

It depends on the installer... soldering means you cannot reverse it easily, however it is less susceptible to nvh. It also depends on the installer's skills and tools.. eg do they use a electric wire stripper (which prevents nicks).. because if they screw up.. the wire harness is toast. Oh and the whole argument is bunk if the particular car has a connector for the alarm module anyways.

I think you posted this in the wrong section.

what is "less susceptible to nvh"?

I don't doubt the installers skills.

it's going into a 2008 mazda -- with factory alarm - how do I know if it has a connector for the alarm module?

FUUU@ posting in the wrong section... if a mod would kindly move to "Audio Video Security" - please and thanks

[RabidRat]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

what is "less susceptible to nvh"?

I don't doubt the installers skills.

it's going into a 2008 mazda -- with factory alarm - how do I know if it has a connector for the alarm module?

FUUU@ posting in the wrong section... if a mod would kindly move to "Audio Video Security" - please and thanks

noise vibration harshness.

meaning does it come apart over time due to your car getting tossed around in everyday driving.

[Phil@rise]

Originally Posted by dangonay

Solder is the worst thing you can use to connect wires/terminals. Crimp connections are far better. There are some specific circumstances where solder can be preferred, but alarms, stereos and vehicle wiring do not fall into those areas.

Solder connections are MORE susceptible to NVH and are less reliable where vibration or movement occurs.
Posted via RS Mobile

Really.

I've never seen a good solder joint come apart but I've seen hundreds of crimp connectors come apart. If your experiencing this in the automotive world you live in then perhaps you and those around you need to learn how to solder.
I solder most every alarm I've ever done. There is the odd exception when time is a crunch or space is an issue and it isn't feasible to do so but those times are very very rare.

[LenovoTurbo]

Originally Posted by dangonay

Solder is the worst thing you can use to connect wires/terminals. Crimp connections are far better. There are some specific circumstances where solder can be preferred, but alarms, stereos and vehicle wiring do not fall into those areas.

Solder connections are MORE susceptible to NVH and are less reliable where vibration or movement occurs.
Posted via RS Mobile

I never experienced a soldered wire coming apart. Even when my soldering skills were noobie, my soldered joints cannot be separated by pulling/yanking on them.

Soldering is always better than crimping imo.

[Prolowtone]

^Especially if you use shrink wrap, i use two layers of shrink wrap as it also helps re-strengthen that area which potentially helps with any type of vibrations and or some flexing.

And to the people saying its not used in vehicle and or stereo wiring really need to look into that.. How are your headlight stalks and other switches designed? The circuit board for your stereo or your vehicles computer board have no solder? Hows that working for you? Oh and wait, your speakers and amps have solder joints to......

[dangonay]

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

Really.

I've never seen a good solder joint come apart but I've seen hundreds of crimp connectors come apart. If your experiencing this in the automotive world you live in then perhaps you and those around you need to learn how to solder.
I solder most every alarm I've ever done. There is the odd exception when time is a crunch or space is an issue and it isn't feasible to do so but those times are very very rare.

I need to learn how to solder? I soldered up this prototype circuit by hand.




These are the kinds of things I repair regularly in the "automotive world". The small break was caused by water damage and was cleaned/prepped for a solder repair.




It's the other way around. If your crimps are coming apart then you need to learn to crimp, or get better tools/connectors. I have NEVER had a crimp fail on me. I have never had a solder joint fail either, but I very rarely use them.

I have, however, fixed so damn many alarms, remote starters, immobilizers and stereos I've lost count. Usually after 5 years when a solder connection or wire tap has failed. The most common solder failure I've seen? When someone wants to tap into a power line and strips off some insulation and wraps a new wire around and then solders it to the main wire.

Originally Posted by Prolowtone

And to the people saying its not used in vehicle and or stereo wiring really need to look into that.. How are your headlight stalks and other switches designed? The circuit board for your stereo or your vehicles computer board have no solder? Hows that working for you? Oh and wait, your speakers and amps have solder joints to......

Solder is primarily used for the purpose of mounting components to PCB's. There really isn't any other way to do it. And the way parts are soldered to PCB's has nothing in common with how you or I would do it. Everything is kept very clean. The solder itself and related chemicals/products (like flux) are all carefully applied in precise amounts (not to mention the quality of the materials they use is better than what you get at Radio Shack). The soldering process itself is carefully controlled (time & temperature). And after the board is finished it's very carefully cleaned to remove any residues. For example, certain residues left from the rosin/flux can "react" with other components causing things like corrosion and eventual failure of a connection.

So why are you comparing solder joints on production quality circuit boards with solder joints done by a "hobbyist"?



Virtually every single connection in any automobile will be crimped. Oh, the same goes for anything in the military, commercial aircraft, NASA, Formula 1 cars...you name it. All the companies that sell high-end electrical products for auto racing (Motec or Pectel, for example) will use crimp connectors.

And if you visit any of the websites for the major manufactrers who make connectors (Amphenol, ITT, Molex, Tyco, Omron, Neutrik, Deutsch.....) and ask them the preferred method they will respond with "crimping". Not some of them, but every single one.


There is only one downside to crimping and that's the expense of buying the tools. Good crimpers are not cheap. But hey, if you want to do quality work you gotta have the right tools.

[Phil@rise]

Your comparing PC board manufacturing to automotive wiring? I'm hardly a "hobbyist" and my soldering iron was double the cost of my crimpers neither cheap. Crimp connectors and molex connections using said crimp connectors are recommended for a couple of reasons. 1) Ease of manufacture and installation when dealing with production line work 2) Not everyone can solder its much easier to teach some lacky to crimp then to solder.

[Cman333]

Wow....this is an interesting topic. I've seen far more failed butt connectors than solder joints in the stereo industry over the years. This might be because most people use shitty crimpers and butt connectors.

Personally for me from a visual standpoint I wouldn't want hundreds of butt connectors in my engine bay (IE. Engine swap).

A good crimp connection will serve the intended purpose of providing a reliable electrical connection just like a soldered connection. But thing is, most people crimp because it's FASTER. Faster in conjunction with shitty tools + shitty connectors IMO tends to cause issues.

When you have installers slamming out alarm/starters in one hour, or DIYers doing engine swaps in their back yard without proper tools the odds are they're crimping poorly because they're in a rush or lack experience.

I'm quite certain a VERY good crimped connection will do the job just as effectively as a soldered connection. Point is, you need to take your time with each connection which is annoying to most mechanics/installers when they're paid hourly (customer won't want to pay more for it) or have a customer rushing them for their car back.

[Cman333]

this is an interesting read

When we look at crimping connectors onto cable vs soldering them, I would have say that most crimped connections are better than most soldered connections. However, the best connections are soldered connections. The problem is there is only one type of solder connection that is truly a joint, most are as the word states, a connection. Most solders, such as the popular 60/40, are a slurried mixture of tin and lead. In making the joint the tin/lead mixture melts, but as it solidifies it does so one metal at a time. It goes into a slurry state and one metal is liquid and the other is very small solid particles, sort of like wet cement. Next, the other metal solidifies and creates a million little connections. This type of connection is not particularly good and not permanent. When the phone company used this type of solder on their main frames, every joint had to be reheated once a year to insure reliability. Even then, the "cold joint" was a common occurrence. Bad and noisy joints were the main cause of failure in early printed circuit boards and electronic equipment until some time in the mid sixties or early seventies. Then they learned that eutectic joints were perfectly reliable and I do mean perfectly. By the mid seventies or early eighties most electronic equipment was being soldered with eutectic solder (63/37). The reliability of printed circuit boards went up about 1000% and solid state audio gear began to sound almost tolerable. Today, all printed circuit boards use 63/37 eutectic solder. Eutectic solder is a special mixture. The melting point of a eutectic solder is lower than any of its component parts, so there is no slurry state in these solders. They solidify as one piece and make a true solder joint, not a connection. Now, provided that the parts being soldered are made of the metal incorporated in the solder (tin plate in the example of printed circuit boards and component leads, with 63/37 tin/lead eutectic solder in the solder baths), you will have a perfect joint.

[dangonay]

^ There's a few flaws in that George Cardas article.

He's wrong about the type of solder used in making PCB's. Modern printed circuit boards DO NOT use 63/37 solder as he states. For example, the EU has banned lead from electronic equipment, meaning no lead in the solder. Japanese manufacturers are removing lead voluntarily from electronics. Since 63/37 contains lead, his statement that PCB's are manufactured using it are false. Except, of course, by companies that don't plan on selling to Europe, Japan or North America.

His claim that 60/40 is somehow "bad" and makes poor connections is also false. There have been numerous products made with 60/40 that have lasted for years without any issues at all. There are other issues with telephone mainframes that contributed greatly to solder joint failures - it wasn't just the solder.

He sells solder. And uses it in his own products. Of course he's going to be promoting the solder type of connection.

Oh, and the fact he sells $1,000 plus "audiophile" cables makes me sketpical of anything he says.

[dangonay]

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

Your comparing PC board manufacturing to automotive wiring? I'm hardly a "hobbyist" and my soldering iron was double the cost of my crimpers neither cheap. Crimp connectors and molex connections using said crimp connectors are recommended for a couple of reasons. 1) Ease of manufacture and installation when dealing with production line work 2) Not everyone can solder its much easier to teach some lacky to crimp then to solder.

Prowoltone implied solder was good because PCB's are soldered and I was explainng that the methods are different and what's reliable in one case doesn't mean it's reliable in all cases.

You also implied I should learn to solder. I perform SMD soldering and rework and fine soldering/repair of PCB's, which takes the greatest amount of skill of any type of electrical/electronic soldering.

Someone who crimps is a "lacky"?

[orgasm_donor]

We have seen and repaired literally thousands of alarm and stereo systems that have been hastily butt connected, T-tapped or crimp-capped together. T-taps break wires (yes, even 3-M T-taps), butt connectors break wires or come apart easily even when crimped properly and crimp caps just tend to makes things bulky and messy. After 20 years of doing these types of installs I have been open-flame soldering for about 90% of the installs I have been doing. I have never seen any of our soldered connections fail. Not even one.

That said, MOST of all butt connected or crimp capped connections have failed because of poorly crimped or lower quality product being used. We had an IS300 get towed in to our shop today because of a horribly installed alarm. The problem? A T-tap had come apart on the starter kill wire. It happens all the time and its frightening how many of these alarms were installed at A&B Sound.

We will never stop soldering.

[Phil@rise]

In shop environments "Lacky"="Newbie"

[finbar]

Solder + adhesive heat shrink tubing FTW

OTOH,

These work with a good crimping tool.

I'm not in a production setting, solder and heat shrink has served me well over the decades.