The union debate thread (Split from BC Teachers thread)

[Jermyzy]

Originally Posted by GC8

I work for a telco company for 3 years and going with union, they are powerless now and like someone said most pro union people are lazy, whiners! some crazy if u ask me *I am younger and most pro union people are older*. IMO if u do your job well you will be rewarded, if you are not getting what you want go somewhere else or maybe you are not good haha gotta be realistic

I've never worked in a union job, so maybe somebody can clarify. From what I've heard, in a union job, they usually promote by seniority, not by performance. I know at Save-on-Foods, when they have internal job postings, they base their selection on seniority.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Jermyzy

From what I've heard, in a union job, they usually promote by seniority, not by performance. I know at Save-on-Foods, when they have internal job postings, they base their selection on seniority.

That is false, at least where I work. To get promoted, you must apply and compete against others just like you would in the private sector. Your experience is subject to evaluation and references are checked thoroughly.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Jermyzy

I've never worked in a union job, so maybe somebody can clarify. From what I've heard, in a union job, they usually promote by seniority, not by performance. I know at Save-on-Foods, when they have internal job postings, they base their selection on seniority.

Its not necessarily a union thing, yet tends to be part of any union that uses collective bargaining. Its hard to collectively agree on the metrics for performance since many different jobs are part of the collective, so it tends to boil down to seniority.

[LSF22]

Originally Posted by Jermyzy

I've never worked in a union job, so maybe somebody can clarify. From what I've heard, in a union job, they usually promote by seniority, not by performance. I know at Save-on-Foods, when they have internal job postings, they base their selection on seniority.

True for me. You could be the hardest worker, but all that gets thrown out the window as soon as you're on the bottom of the seniority list. A senior co-worker who works half as much as you, and puts in half the effort you do will still get considered for a promotion/raise before your hardworking ass.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by Glove

again, it is about being jelly in the end.

This sums it up perfectly. A dumb unionized worker thinks its about being jealous and has completely missed the economic point.

Glove, when hard times hit, and they will, I hope you have enough seniority to survive your fellow unionized workers throwing younger members under the bus rather than take concessions - cause they have and will - and then will you be "jelly"?

Originally Posted by Glove

maybe if there were more unions around, employers wouldnt be able to fire you and hire fob workers for half your salary.

You act like business doesn't have a choice with a union. If the union makes the cost of business unprofitable, then there's 2 choices:
1. The union can take concessions.
2. Everyone can be out of a job when the company shuts down or moves to a more competitive market.

Originally Posted by Glove

if they had their way, we would be worse off then the private sector.

You should be worse than the private sector, you forget the term is public servant.

[Vege]

I work in a union environment and it's absolute garbage. From my first hand experience, all the union wants to do is make life miserable for management and protect all employees even those who are blatently abusing the collective agreement. They try to brainwash new employees into thinking that management is the enemy and to fight them at every opportunity. This in turn, wastes everyone's time and money trying to prove that there was no issue in the first place. Unfortunately, there are a lot of mindless sheep who believe in what the union says and that's how they maintain their membership.

I am so glad I will be officially leaving the union membership at the end of this week to work at a different company in management.

[yameen]

i personally think nurses deserve a higher pay. they have so much responsibility and for the amount of work they do, i'm surprised the wage isn't higher. i can't say the same for every nurse in every specialty, but most are deserving of more.

[Z3guy]

^ I think Nurses and Teachers are two professions we need to re evaluate their importance to society....

[Graeme S]

This thread has been split from the Teachers Strike thread; it was getting derailed and becoming a union debate thread. This thread is for that. Please continue the union debate here, and keep teacher-related stuff in the other.

[freakshow]

I know my next job will be a union job. It's impossible to fight unions, so you might as well get a job in one.

[darkfroggy]

Originally Posted by taylor192

I'm not pointing to extremes, I'm using a very real example where government used to control land ownership and people suffered. Only once they were granted the right to land ownership were people better off. That's a truly open market, and benefited the people greatly.

A truly open market does not screw the consumer, as I've pointed out the consumer here (main street) has screwed themselves by requiring returns (8% from wall street) beyond what their country is producing (2-3% GDP increase). The only way out of this vicious circle is for the consumer to adjust their expectations (teachers take pay cuts). No amount of government intervention can make 2-3% into 8%.

Unregulated markets are just as bad, if not worse, than heavily regulated ones.

If fishing was unregulated, all the commercial fisheries would just fish until there were no more fish left. Why? Capitalism = maximize profit. It would be in your interest to catch as much fish as you can. If you sit there you will only lose out on free fish, AND your single act won't make a difference. This is why we need regulation because without it, it would just be a fight for resources.

Also, what about pollution? If it was an unregulated market, companies would pollute to no tomorrow. There would be NO incentive at all to pollute less since going "green" costs you more. Why should companies care about how many carcinogens they release into the atmosphere? The average consumer doesn't care, at least not enough to make a difference.

Not sure how land ownership = truly open market. There is no such thing as a truly open market in the world, but almost every country has some concept of private property.

[Wetordry]

If you work in a union: you will love them
If you work with a union: you will hate them
Posted via RS Mobile

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by darkfroggy

Unregulated markets are just as bad, if not worse, than heavily regulated ones.

Government should regulate the market, not be in the market.

[RHMadness]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

People in unions love them because deep down inside they know they are being paid more than they deserve. Why should long shoreman make $150K to $200K a year? because of their skill set? GP doctors dont even make that. Plus getting fired is next to impossible.

I would rather develop skills in mgmt, sales, welding, plumber, accounting etc. where your skills demand a higher wage.

Look at what happen to all the US autoworkers.......

People in unions love them because deep down inside they know they are being paid more than they deserve???? <--- Dude are you kidding me lol.. Where is this information based off of? The Long shoreman analogy isnt even true.. I worked for them back when I was in Uni.. NOBODY makes 150 to 200K a year that I knew of? They made a decent wage, and when you were at the top of the grid it was a comfortable living (I'll give you that).. But as any industry or anything in general 1 bad apple can ruin your opinion of the whole bunch. So if 1 union does something stupid, people generally hate unions. I have moved around quite a bit in the labour movement contracting into different unions and I have had the opportunity to work for some seriously good unions. Ones that would spend whatever resources possible to overturn an unjust termination. Unions definately have their place and they are for people, the middle class blue collar worker that earns a living wage.

[Z3guy]

Have you heard of a role called supervisor? and yes they make $150k+. A regular unionized long shoreman can make that too if they work night shifts & long weekends.

Full time longshoreman make $50/hr+

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by RHMadness

People in unions love them because deep down inside they know they are being paid more than they deserve???? <--- Dude are you kidding me lol.. Where is this information based off of?

This fits every single federal government worker. I moved here from Ottawa, I've seen it first hand.

[Ax2-Y]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

Have you heard of a role called supervisor? and yes they make $150k+. A regular unionized long shoreman can make that too if they work night shifts & long weekends.

Full time longshoreman make $50/hr+

No kidding a foreman, supervisor, or senior worker is going to make more money - especially when you include working overtime, night shifts, and long weekends. you can say that about any job, private or public. please don't use senior position salaries (in the highest paid union, no less) as your argument for people getting paid too much when the VAST majority of unionized jobs are blue collar 9-5 types who earn enough to maintain a middle class living.

I work for the city and am personally grateful for what unions have done for the middle class worker. no i am not a slacker. no i am not a whiner. no my department hasn't had a grievance in the 6 years i have been there. and yes we get along with management. not all unions are this evil entity you people might think they are.

[Z3guy]

^ a foreman or supervisor are senior positions? OK now.

Lets do some math here. A regular long shore man makes $50/hr x 40hrs per wk x 52 wks per yr = $104,000 without taking into acct night shifts, long weekends or overtime.

You are right, there are some very good unions, but the majority are not.

The attitude of "most" union employee is quite frankly toxic....

[minoru_tanaka]

Originally Posted by Ax2-Y

I work for the city and am personally grateful for what unions have done for the middle class worker. no i am not a slacker. no i am not a whiner. no my department hasn't had a grievance in the 6 years i have been there. and yes we get along with management. not all unions are this evil entity you people might think they are.

I've worked for the city in a union and I'll tell you why you guys get along with management so well.

Can't be a slacker if no one else is really working and there's an excess amount of people to do the job.

Can't be a whiner if there's nothing to complain about.

Can't not get along with management if they pretty much leave you alone.

What grivance could you have filed? What's management going to bother you about? There's no pressure on them either.

Edit: If I'm wrong then the HR dept deserves a huge raise for hiring such perfect management and workers

[Ax2-Y]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

^ a foreman or supervisor are senior positions? OK now.

Lets do some math here. A regular long shore man makes $50/hr x 40hrs per wk x 52 wks per yr = $104,000 without taking into acct night shifts, long weekends or overtime.

You are right, there are some very good unions, but the majority are not.

The attitude of "most" union employee is quite frankly toxic....

im not going to get into a pissing match with you about this. bottom line is NO ONE walks into a job and gets handed a foreman or supervisory position, so yes, they are positions given to people with seniority.

PayScale Canada - Longshoreman Wages, Hourly Wage Rate

[Z3guy]

^ you don't want to get in a pissing match but you want the last word too? make up your mind.

[SkinnyPupp]

I've said it before, but this thread just proves my point perfectly, so I'll say it again. The only people who like unions are people who are in unions. Everyone else, who can see from a critical perspective, knows them for what they are.

[dignatas]

how are the nurses salary compared to the teachers? Since revscene is saying that they nurses and teachers are being underpaid.

[Death2Theft]

Heh all I know is the city has more secretaries answering phones than people actually out on the road doing the physical labour.

[gary92]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

People in unions love them because deep down inside they know they are being paid more than they deserve. Why should long shoreman make $150K to $200K a year? because of their skill set? GP doctors dont even make that. Plus getting fired is next to impossible.

I would rather develop skills in mgmt, sales, welding, plumber, accounting etc. where your skills demand a higher wage.

Look at what happen to all the US autoworkers.......

the high pay is also due to how dangerous the job can be. you can find videos of dock gantry cranes falling over due to high winds or mechanical failures. the only jobs i know of at the port that make $150k+ are foreman and i think westshore workers (cole mine)

they also have welders, electricians, HD mechanics working there which have full training from schools like BCIT. so not everyone's a high school drop out working there