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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
I can say exactly that.
Being endangered has no bearings on tradition. But whether or not I support slaughtering endangered species is another question. This, in NO way is a personal reflection of my other belief that traditions should be respected, and not be changed willy-nilly because of what others think.
Like I said, just because this tradition involves something I don't agree with, it doesn't mean they have to stop because I (we) think its disgusting what they're doing.
And at which point did I take everything negative in this thread and see it as an attack on the Hindu religion? I specifically centralized my arguments on quotes made by posters who made CLEAR efforts to attack the religion (and subsequently their practices) and their peoples.
No, the fact that it is endangered doesn't change what has been traditionally done, however when a tradition starts to infringe on the rights or safety and longevity of another culture or animal, the followers of said tradition are eventually going to have to adapt and modify their tradition to work around the changing world.
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__________________ 1991 Toyota Celica GTFour RC // 2007 Toyota Rav4 V6 // 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
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I disagree. It's not MSG, at least not at the good places...
When you're talking $30+ per bowl, it's really freaking damned good.
Except, it's not the sharkfin that makes it good, it's because of the chicken broth.
I think culinarily speaking, the chicken broth they create is freaking amazing.
But I just want to point out that culinary use of sharkfin is probably a 2/10.
Sure it gives an interesting texture and is fairly unique, but it's not what makes sharkfin soup taste good.
Culture_Vulture, I'd like to hear your response to my previous post. I'm interested in how you are approaching this subject from the opposite perspective.
I really had no intention of replying, seeing as this thread has already died down so much. But here goes.
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Originally Posted by Culverin
Spoiler!
I think this has turned into a good discussion. I'm obviously on the opposite spectrum you are, but I don't feel slighted by it in the slightest. Open dialogue and difference of opinion should be encouraged, especially in a public forum such as this.
I think you are putting on blinders if you pretend that "ahead" and "behind" in terms of human morality evolution doesn't exist. I've not taken any sort of true philosophy course, so please don't think I'm speaking from an arrogant perspective on this. I'm no arts major either so my english obviously sucks...
I don't think you can quite put morality aside.
As we continue to evolve our collective human consciousness, we see trends...
Hunter gatherer
Exploit the environment for your own gain.
Discover the impact humans have an impact on the environment.
Understand that if things continue this way, we destroy nature's gift to us.
Decide to make a choice of stewardship or exploitation.
I could be mistaken, but I think all peoples regardless of culture feel the burden of losing of something that took lots of time to achieve. It's like your art project final that took weeks to complete. You'd cry if somebody smashed it. A universal morality is that humanity empathizes. Expanding on that, a general educated populace will understand and empathize of the loss that humanity has caused.
I don't really mean it as an insult when I say that a culture is behind. It's more of a statement of the overall living conditions of the populace, their collective levels of education and their priorities rather than their morals. It's like how some of grandparents don't quite understand the concept of stewardship. It's not because they don't empathize with what destruction humanity has wrought upon nature (point #6), but rather they don't even quite get the concept that humanity is quickly destroying something that was not easy to come by (point #4)
But I ask you to stretch your imagination just a little here. If we were 200 years in the future and well on our way to building a human utopia, a heaven on earth so to speak. Would you not agree that as the enlightened life forms on the planet, that we would be good care takers of all the lesser species on this planet? There would be respect for the animals and most of all understanding of it's place in the eco system.
So long story short, you can't ignore morality. It has shown that human morality does evolve.
And why a 3rd world country shouldn't be allowed to abuse their environment and take advantage of their natural resources in a harmful manner? It's because they are slow as fuck. They got their last. We, humanity in it's collective wisdom has already learned from our past mistakes. We have put laws and guidelines in place so we don't repeat our errors.
I'm going to paint you some far off parallel, but maybe with this, you can use it to distance yourself from culture vs culture and look at it from a morality perspective.
I guess my point is, history has shown that evolution of morality IS a concrete and hard fact. It is linear and moves in a forward and enlightened direction.
And secondly. Just because somebody fucked up, doesn't make it acceptable for everybody else to follow suit. In fact, somebody fucking up and learning from it has an obligation to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again.
The first half of your post illustrates a clear and rather important point: an evolution (a "change over time", let's say instead) of morality does exist.
Realize that I did not outwardly deny this though: I just have a different understanding of what this process of evolution constituted (and consequently the incentives and significance behind it). I won't go into that again this post, because that would not be answering your question.
Most, if not all of the below quotes from my previous posts are either attempts at 'just-so' explanations or at establishing a theoretical framework to illustrate this event (because frankly, I'm just bad at talking in situationals/what-ifs--I find it impractical).
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture
But to say those who do in fact participate in these activities are somehow too stupid, too ignorant, or live in some type of inferior culture for YOUR (westernized, and therefore undeniably humanitarian and right) ideals makes you a dumb uneducated cunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture
I can say exactly that.
Being endangered has no bearings on tradition. But whether or not I support slaughtering endangered species is another question. This, in NO way is a personal reflection of my other belief that traditions should be respected, and not be changed willy-nilly because of what others think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture
Just because you believe something is ethically incorrect (even if it appears to be the general, international consensus), it doesn't mean everybody and anybody else who don't share your perspective(s) are wrong and backwards/unenlightened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture
But at the same time, there also exist no universal set of ethics that would indefinitely condemn them of these actions. Why? Because laws carry bias. Any type of law, no matter how detailed or simple, carry bias in one way, shape, or form.
Using some sort of "international" set of laws or set of ethics to justify the moral prosecution of cultural practices is retarded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culture_Vulture
How many good, sound minded people of the Hindu variety are, in fact, at this very moment outraged by the amount of cattle consumption you and your close-minded friends go through on an annual basis? Do they call you inhumane and seek to commit a genocide against American culture?
In essence, rather than dealing with this situation in a sensibly realistic way (because it's fucking religion), I resorted to a philosophical approach.
But since you have brought to the table a pragmatic approach, then yes, I can't deny the fact that some individuals are (for the lack of a better term) "morally superior". And then there are those who haven't quite "seen the big picture" yet.
BUT...there is stark difference between recognizing these fundamental differences in moral understandings as an inevitable and real fact, and addressing them as having something to do with some type of cognitive underdevelopment (if you will), as so many people in the international community/in this thread so aptly suggested.
The reason why I'm against this is because it justifies all sorts of retardation from those who ironically, see themselves are (morally) superior based on one botched and highly debatable criteria.
From "smiting ignorant retards" to calling them "primitive", "inhuman", or to suggest we "stop sending aid" to a country where people are dying from hunger, ALL BECAUSE they did something not-so-agreeable by our standards (and who knows, the western community may be alone in this: there hasn't been an outrage in Africa or in East Asia about this event)--none of this has any bearing whatsoever with the topic at hand.
If you are suggesting that Bangladesh is analogous to that retarded brother who is always that one step behind, then the rest of these people advocating derogatory categorizations are in fact, effectively implying that you should just leave him to play in traffic because he'll always be a retard dipshit anyways.
Furthermore (and this is a big one): your retarded brother may need your guidance and warnings to not make the same mistakes you did, but where is the evidence that these people are in any way "retarded" (so to speak) compared to those who have a clearer moral understanding of how things ought to be? Are we somehow implying that they're incapable (as opposed to unwilling) of understanding what we are advocating? And if so, that makes them ultimately subhuman?
I take it that most people in this thread take (what I was originally arguing to be western) "morality" to be something embedded cognitively, like some sort of divine natural law. We can logically infer then, that what these people are saying is, because Hindus don't share these same sets of moral guidelines, they are cognitively retarded. And I do mean that in the worst possible way.
Well, weren't we, having gone through the same thing in the past, cognitively retarded too, then?
I was never "putting morality aside". Quite plain and simple, what made me irate in this thread was frankly not the fact that Hindus would disregard the ecosystem in the way they did (for whatever reason), but the responses by the international community/in this thread that condemned them of it. What's the saying? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Or whatever the shit it is.
Religion has invoked people to do unspeakable atrocities to HUMANS for HUNDREDS of years, and CONTINUES to do so even today. Things that would make you SICK. And everything in between, from genocide to rape to mere intolerance.
So who the fuck cares about some fucking TURTLES.
So these particular people don't adhere to YOUR morals. Too bad, there is a lot worse things to worry about in life.
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