Stuck in a position

[suzuka84]

Originally Posted by aznlangjai

i think when it comes to arguing and proving something is right or wrong, i can be very anal, especially when i know 100% i am right and the other person is not admitting to it.

Not to be mean but most people go into law think if they argue a lot with their friends and they are always right, law should be their calling. If you think you're great at arguing and proving something is right or wrong, sign up for debates in university/college. A local toastmasters club would do the same thing, you'll eat humble pie very shortly. Go try to reason with drunks on Vancouver's Granville St on Friday/Saturdays. I have 2 gfs that went into law with your mindset at their parents urging - they argue well, neither practice anymore and both are under 30. Key difference is both girls are born into money so they need not practice to maintain their standard of living. You want to trade one extreme for another - working a 9-5 job without education to working ungodly hours with a high level education. There are a ton of jobs/careers out there that pay equally well which you will find as honest and rewarding. I suggest you take a personality test at UBC to see which careers suit your goals and aspirations.

You want to see the current predicament of lawyers? look into a legal education in the USA. You'll see the glut of legal minds in a traditional industry dead set on maintaining the status quo at all costs without care for the next generation of bright minds.

[mr_chin]

Originally Posted by suzuka84

Not to be mean but most people go into law think if they argue a lot with their friends and they are always right, law should be their calling. If you think you're great at arguing and proving something is right or wrong, sign up for debates in university/college. A local toastmasters club would do the same thing, you'll eat humble pie very shortly. Go try to reason with drunks on Vancouver's Granville St on Friday/Saturdays. I have 2 gfs that went into law with your mindset at their parents urging - they argue well, neither practice anymore and both are under 30. Key difference is both girls are born into money so they need not practice to maintain their standard of living. You want to trade one extreme for another - working a 9-5 job without education to working ungodly hours with a high level education. There are a ton of jobs/careers out there that pay equally well which you will find as honest and rewarding. I suggest you take a personality test at UBC to see which careers suit your goals and aspirations.

You want to see the current predicament of lawyers? look into a legal education in the USA. You'll see the glut of legal minds in a traditional industry dead set on maintaining the status quo at all costs without care for the next generation of bright minds.

You're right, it is still too early to decide which career I will be going into, but as of right now, I have my mind set on being a commercial lawyer or the likes.

Maybe a debate class and personality test will change my mind.

[JKam]

shit I had a great long post yesterday but it got deleted!!!

My sister is a commercial lawyer and shes only now starting to get decent pay (for a lawyer). She started to get decent pay when she was about 32ish. Before that she went to post secondary full time, working a PT job. She immediately went to SFU after HS and then finished law school when she was 28ish (I think). During the time she was getting her education she was piss poor and still living at home to reduce any expenses.

After graduation she had to article getting a shitty salary doing shitty work for a while. She also had a student loan to pay off.

I can't remember what else I posted before but it was much easier to read....

To sum it up, I'm not trying to crush your dreams but being a lawyer takes a TON of time and money, which is a precious commodity at your age (I think anyways).

Also, choosing to be a lawyer because you're good at arguing isn't a good way to decide your career... I'm no expert nor am I in the industry but I think being a commercial lawyer is more about negotiation than it is about "arguing".

[dachinesedude]

not trying to crush your dreams or anything, but do you really think you have what it takes to get into law school?

you dropped outta high school so you're obviously not the academic kinda guy, be realistic here you need insane marks to get into law school, and its really $$

people change over time, blah blah i know, but ive seen too many people make unrealistic goals and just fail half way, you gotta know your own ability, always have a plan B

[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by aznlangjai

you're kinda right. it's actually going to be 8 1/2 year to finish because i am still completing my high school diploma at a very slow pace (1 course a semester).

i think when it comes to arguing and proving something is right or wrong, i can be very anal, especially when i know 100% i am right and the other person is not admitting to it.

it's comments like these that makes me have second thought, and i don't blame you because i'm a very realistic person. and realistic people don't succeed or fail in life, they seem to live a mediocre life and settle with what they have. i'm not steering off on my goals just because of these few comments. it's these comments that raises another problem for me to solve, a question for me to answer. i have been through many decisions in my life and know that every time i start something fresh, there'll always be a set back but in the end i always succeed better than anyone else by quickly learning from my mistakes.

selling my car is not an option because my car is my wheels to get my shit done. without it, i feel discouraged and unmotivated.

1) I dont know why people are failing dachinesedude -> he makes a good point. One course a semester of high school courses is a joke. High school is EASY. Pick up a copy of an LSAT prep book and see what kind of scores you get.

Canadian Law School Profiles - McGill, UBC, UofA, UofT, UVic, York,

Take a look at the average GPAs for these schools. Take a look at the LSAT scores. Compare that to your practice LSAT scores.

2) The law industry has a GLUT of lawyers now. It's very hard to get an articling job. I can't find the stats now, but UBC for example has placement of something like 70% which is abysmal.

3) Law isn't about arguing and proving a point. You need to do more research on the industry before you get in.

Law is about research and attention to detail. It's about going through stacks upon stacks of old cases and precedents. It's about knowing the LAW.

tl;dr: From what you've presented, law is not for you. Do more research.

[instantneedles]

I'm going to have to partially disagree with some of you on this one... He's a fully grown adult, and the mindset he held on academics back when he dropped out of highschool compared to the mindset he has now at the age of 26 is very different. I think the main point OP is trying to get at is that he is sick of working graveyard shifts and is striving for better standards of living and a good education. If becoming a lawyer is the goal/destination he is setting for himself, then that is a decision he is making for himself at the age of 26. Often times, people will go into university/college without a goal/destination in mind, and this is what usually bars them from going out to experience more out of their university/college life because they will tend to think that university/college is what will secure them a job, which in reality, is not true.

I'm sure something triggered his decision to become a lawyer, or he wouldn't have chosen this as his desired career in the first place. In fact, my cousin, who studied food and nutrition for 4 years decided to make a polar change to become a lawyer because she found it was what interested her. Back when she was studying food and nutrition, she had no idea what direction she was going. She graduated from law school a year ago, and is now an entry level attorney. If law is what you want to do, then by all means go for it. Do your research and homework and nothing is impossible.

[46_valentinor]

bro, i have absolutely no idea how the night crew guys can handle the job every night from 6-5...staying at the company from 7-3 already pisses me off because of the people who works there.
anyways, i was in the same shoe as you when i just graduated high school. i had a pretty good supervisory position at a very fast expanding company working 40-50 hours a week making what people here would consider extremely good pay for someone who was my age. but i asked myself if i can imagine myself in this company and doing this type of work for the next 2 or 5 or 10 or 20 years and the answer was absolutely not. every time i walked outside the company to deal with annoying drivers, i would see a plane arriving towards or departing from yvr and everytime i saw that i knew that was what i wanted to do. it took me 3 years to gather my balls to take the first step and to go for my dream and even though i didn't succeed in it yet, i think it was one of the best choices i made. Regretting something like that can be the worst decision ever, if you fail at least you know you tried. if you want to do law, think carefully of what you are getting into and go for it!!
by the way, if you ever fail you can always go back to doing the graveyard shifts there! lol...maybe you'll get sent to calgary! =D

[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by instantneedles

I'm sure something triggered his decision to become a lawyer, or he wouldn't have chosen this as his desired career in the first place.

His argument for becoming a lawyer thus far has been:

i think when it comes to arguing and proving something is right or wrong, i can be very anal, especially when i know 100% i am right and the other person is not admitting to it.

Had he said something like "I am very good at research and writing", then I might believe it.

One can also look at how he's going about trying to get into school. High school courses one at a time? What a total waste of time and money. He's likely not done any research whatsoever (likely considering he said 8.5 years of school) on the fastest way to do it.

If I was to do it in his situation, I'd do this:
- Finish my GED while studying for LSAT. If I got 165+, I'd apply to as many law schools as I could that would accept mature students. If accepted, great, if not, then plan B.

Plan B
- Go to college while taking distance university courses that would accept mature students
- Take as many courses as possible that transfer while getting 90+ marks
- Transfer to a university in second year and pick the easiest subjects that would allow for a high GPA while taking a more than full course load
- Study for LSAT again and aim to get 160+
- After 90 credits (or whatever minimums law schools wants), start applying. This could potentially happen 2 years assuming a stacked summer course schedule.

Plan C
Finish degree in 3 years, find other job.

I've just cut 8.5 years down to a minimum of 3 (direct to law school) to a maximum of 6.5 years (1 year college, 2.5 years uni, 3 years law).

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by dachinesedude

people change over time, blah blah i know, but ive seen too many people make unrealistic goals and just fail half way, you gotta know your own ability, always have a plan B

I feel the need to explain my fail; while the goal of becoming a lawyer may be lofty, regardless of age or academic background, a great number of people do not pursue an education purely because they are intimidated by it and fear failure. That's especially true for mature students, they fixate on the idea that they will be graduating at 3X years old, when they should focus on the 25 years they'll be in the workforce post-graduation. It's also very provable, people who were not academically successful in high school during teenager years can often be successful later in life. Usually I'm a pessimist, brutally realistic and honest regardless of the subject, but I don't want to see someone being intimidated to pursue high education and looked down upon for a lack of academic success in high school.

True excellence as a scholar does require some level of high natural intellect, but success at the undergraduate level is primarily just a matter of work ethic. If a person is determined to succeed, willing to put the appropriate amount of time and effort into studying and assignments, they don't leave work to the last minute and are not to shy to seek help when encountering difficulties they will do well.

[Euro7r]

My opinion is that, "Don't settle for anything". You're young and plenty of time and room to advance, do more and make way more. That's the mentality I have. A lot of my friends always wonder why the hell I work extra hours when I don't get paid for it and working so hard. I'm 25 and I want to get as far as I can in the shortest period of time because what I do now directly affects my future.

I'm in one of those dilemma situation as well. I have a career job and making decent money, but to make more and advance higher, I'll have to finish my degree as I ended up putting aside my education on hold. Now I wish I finished school and didn't put it on hold.

Do what you need to do when your still young.

[mr_chin]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

His argument for becoming a lawyer thus far has been:



Had he said something like "I am very good at research and writing", then I might believe it.

One can also look at how he's going about trying to get into school. High school courses one at a time? What a total waste of time and money. He's likely not done any research whatsoever (likely considering he said 8.5 years of school) on the fastest way to do it.

If I was to do it in his situation, I'd do this:
- Finish my GED while studying for LSAT. If I got 165+, I'd apply to as many law schools as I could that would accept mature students. If accepted, great, if not, then plan B.

Plan B
- Go to college while taking distance university courses that would accept mature students
- Take as many courses as possible that transfer while getting 90+ marks
- Transfer to a university in second year and pick the easiest subjects that would allow for a high GPA while taking a more than full course load
- Study for LSAT again and aim to get 160+
- After 90 credits (or whatever minimums law schools wants), start applying. This could potentially happen 2 years assuming a stacked summer course schedule.

Plan C
Finish degree in 3 years, find other job.

I've just cut 8.5 years down to a minimum of 3 (direct to law school) to a maximum of 6.5 years (1 year college, 2.5 years uni, 3 years law).

my calcualtion of 8.5 includes the 7 years required to complete law degree. correct me if i am wrong, but law requires 3 years of law school and 4 years of pratical or something like that?

i agree with you, maybe being good at debating isn't what law is about. my reason to become a lawyer was too vague. may be i'll become a prosecutor. maybe this maybe that. your plan is great, but like you said, "if you're in my situation". if you're in my situation, you would not be able to take your GED yet and go to law school because you would be financially unstable (3 year car lease, saving enough to buy out car) and time would be what you're battling against working this 11 hour/day job for 6 days a week.

i wake up at 5:15pm to get to my work at 6pm, work until 5:30am.
get home at about 6am, shower and stuff to about 6:45am.
wake up at 10:30am to go to school for 2 hour class (1 course) until 1:00.
get home at 1:30pm, sleep at about 2pm, wake up again at 5:15pm.

so tell me how would you make money on the side and finish your GED, law school, etc etc. in 3 years.
im thankful that my dad pays for the rent, but everything else i pay for myself.

anyways, i would like to thank everyone for their input in the direction i am going with my career but the main topic of this thread is to assure me that this job is decent with school on the side, not if my career plan is right or wrong. i guess prioritizing my direction in my career was what i was looking for. and right now, making money with school on the side for the next 3 - 4 years is what i plan to do. i should be done my diploma in 1.5 years, then when my car is paid off and bought out, i should still have a decent amount of money to go to college/university full time while working a part time job.

[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by aznlangjai

my calcualtion of 8.5 includes the 7 years required to complete law degree. correct me if i am wrong, but law requires 3 years of law school and 4 years of pratical or something like that?

i agree with you, maybe being good at debating isn't what law is about. my reason to become a lawyer was too vague. may be i'll become a prosecutor. maybe this maybe that. your plan is great, but like you said, "if you're in my situation". if you're in my situation, you would not be able to take your GED yet and go to law school because you would be financially unstable (3 year car lease, saving enough to buy out car) and time would be what you're battling against working this 11 hour/day job for 6 days a week.

i wake up at 5:15pm to get to my work at 6pm, work until 5:30am.
get home at about 6am, shower and stuff to about 6:45am.
wake up at 10:30am to go to school for 2 hour class (1 course) until 1:00.
get home at 1:30pm, sleep at about 2pm, wake up again at 5:15pm.

so tell me how would you make money on the side and finish your GED, law school, etc etc. in 3 years.
im thankful that my dad pays for the rent, but everything else i pay for myself.

anyways, i would like to thank everyone for their input in the direction i am going with my career but the main topic of this thread is to assure me that this job is decent with school on the side, not if my career plan is right or wrong. i guess prioritizing my direction in my career was what i was looking for. and right now, making money with school on the side for the next 3 - 4 years is what i plan to do. i should be done my diploma in 1.5 years, then when my car is paid off and bought out, i should still have a decent amount of money to go to college/university full time while working a part time job.

Are you stupid or do you just lack the ability to do research?

1) If you're really so hard up for cash, GET RID OF YOUR CAR. If you absolutely insist on having a car, get rid of the expensive lease and find a cheap reliable beater. You'll save on insurance, car payments and likely gas.
2) If your job is preventing you from pursuing your law school dreams, then get another job. If you find a job(s) paying $8/hr requiring you to work 8 hrs a day for 360 days a year, that's 17,272 take home after taxes or $1400 a month. If you can't live off $1400 a month living rent free, then you are doing something seriously wrong.
3) Here's an LSAT question for you... all prosecutors are lawyers and not all lawyers are prosecutors. What do you need to become to be a prosecutor?
4) If I was in your situation, why wouldn't i be able to take my GED? It's just a test you study for. Buy a book and study that instead of wasting 2 hrs a day in class. You save money too.
5) Law school doesn't require 4 years of school. Again, do some research. Afraid you can't afford law school? Student loans and work during the summers.

But hey, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about because your situation is soooooooooo special so why don't you keep doing things inefficiently and waste years of your life away mismanaging your money and working at a dead-end job to struggle paying for car you obviously can't afford. I mean, if you take 8.5 years instead of 3, it's soooo much more worth it in the end eh?

To answer your original question, based on what I've seen on how you react to people posting in this thread, you're never going to reach your goals in life. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

[Iceman-19]

Lol, 1.5 years to graduate? GED is 6 hours of tests over 2 days. They are a joke. I just took my GED over the weekend. In 2-3 weeks I will have my results and have high school equivilancy. You want to become a lawyer, which requires INCREDIBLE amounts of research, yet you can't even research what you need to do to get into law school. You are not and will never be cut out to be a lawyer. I think that is already blatantly obvious to everyone here.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Nlkko]

Nobody is belittling you. DaFonz's are all good advice. To succeed, you have to keep your mind open to criticism.

[Firmware]

Originally Posted by top_dyl

4k a month equals $25/hour. that's not ballN?

Defining your stupidity on rs requires 1 post.

[BallPeenHammer2]

i will give you a piece of reality now: You make more than most people in the COUNTRY.

and you don't even have HIGH SCHOOL. You're making a LOT MORE than what you should given your education level.

I have friends with DEGREES and fucking MBAs that make only that amount.

[BallPeenHammer2]

and BTW, I've been on my own for a decade now. I've gone from homeless to $8/hour to what I'm at now, which is about $800/month less than what you make, minus the rough hours.

I pay rent, insurance, EVERYTHING ELSE, and then some.

I still have money left over to save for my future house.

And take girls out.

I don't see why you can't save. Unless you leased a fucking SLS, I don't see why you'd have difficulty with money.

If you do, you have shitty spending habits.

[mr_chin]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

Are you stupid or do you just lack the ability to do research?

1) If you're really so hard up for cash, GET RID OF YOUR CAR. If you absolutely insist on having a car, get rid of the expensive lease and find a cheap reliable beater. You'll save on insurance, car payments and likely gas.
2) If your job is preventing you from pursuing your law school dreams, then get another job. If you find a job(s) paying $8/hr requiring you to work 8 hrs a day for 360 days a year, that's 17,272 take home after taxes or $1400 a month. If you can't live off $1400 a month living rent free, then you are doing something seriously wrong.
3) Here's an LSAT question for you... all prosecutors are lawyers and not all lawyers are prosecutors. What do you need to become to be a prosecutor?
4) If I was in your situation, why wouldn't i be able to take my GED? It's just a test you study for. Buy a book and study that instead of wasting 2 hrs a day in class. You save money too.
5) Law school doesn't require 4 years of school. Again, do some research. Afraid you can't afford law school? Student loans and work during the summers.

But hey, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about because your situation is soooooooooo special so why don't you keep doing things inefficiently and waste years of your life away mismanaging your money and working at a dead-end job to struggle paying for car you obviously can't afford. I mean, if you take 8.5 years instead of 3, it's soooo much more worth it in the end eh?

To answer your original question, based on what I've seen on how you react to people posting in this thread, you're never going to reach your goals in life. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Sigh, what did i say in any of my posts to startle your anger and fustration for MY life? Is this a test you're putting me through to see if i'm actually fit to be a lawyer?

1) Here is a quote taken from post #6 in this thread by me.

"Saving is not a problem.

Forgot to mention I have a car to pay off for another 2 years. I'm living with my dad and he's paying the rent. Reason I started going back to school is because I feel I shouldn't be stuck in a graveyard job.

So putting in 60 - 70 hours a week of work to make 4k a month a fine? I need a reality check that it's normal."

All I am saying is that I have a car I want to take care of first. Sure you can judge me for not being those students that take on 4, 5, 6 courses. Sure, in life, it's about struggle it's about getting to your goals, but it's also about being able to take on stress and pressure you can handle. Sure you can say I am weak, but that's all you can ever say.

2) I like your calculation. Never said I can't live off even $1000 a month.
3) You throw an LSAT question at me when it's obvious I didn't even do research and haven't even gotten my diploma, that's why we're here discussing this for whatever reason it may have been.
4) I apologize, yes if you're in my situation, you would be able to take the GED. Would you pass, in my situation? Even if you studied? I'm not saying I'm stupid, but I've dropped out of school for 10 years now and I was surprised of how I did on my assessment.
5) Post #36

but law requires 3 years of law school and 4 years of pratical or something like that?

Maybe I should have added the "degree" after "law". I apologize for not being clear enough.

I like how you jumped to conclusion that if I continued the way I am right now, I am wasting my life inefficiently. But no, it would not be a waste. Like others have said and approved that how much I make right now is actually more than an average person, and it was basically the point of this whole thread, to keep me sane.

I don't know how I startled you in the first place, maybe the title of this thread is a little misleading, something like "need to prioritize my life" would have been better or maybe because I replied with a contradicting post to your Plan A, B, and C. But by no means was I trying to state that your plan would not work. Hence this statement I made in post #36

your plan is great, but like you said, "if you're in my situation"

And base on your view of how I reacted to people in this posts, how DID I reacted? Never did I say anyone's advice was useless. In several posts, I personally thanked the people that shared their advice. Am I not using the thanking/failing button correctly to let you know I am being appreciative? Or maybe you're reading my post in your own voice and creating a lot of sarcasm and mockery within it?

Anyways, it appears you know a little about law because you threw an LSAT question at me (not even sure if it's a real LSAT question), but I can say that you don't have what it takes to be successful in law base on your presumptions and over reading people's posts.

Originally Posted by Iceman-19

Lol, 1.5 years to graduate? GED is 6 hours of tests over 2 days. They are a joke. I just took my GED over the weekend. In 2-3 weeks I will have my results and have high school equivilancy. You want to become a lawyer, which requires INCREDIBLE amounts of research, yet you can't even research what you need to do to get into law school. You are not and will never be cut out to be a lawyer. I think that is already blatantly obvious to everyone here.
Posted via RS Mobile

I guess it's about priority. At this moment and second or maybe even in the next year, I don't plan on getting into law school. Find me a posts I made that said I actually do plan on it and I will STFU. I'll save you time, here is a statement I made in post #36

making money with school on the side for the next 3 - 4 years is what i plan to do

Never asked for opinion on my career path. All of this started by one question ecchiecchi asked in post #5. But thanks, your judgement won't make me quit.

Originally Posted by Nlkko

Nobody is belittling you. DaFonz's are all good advice. To succeed, you have to keep your mind open to criticism.

Are you stupid or do you just lack the ability to do research?

But hey, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about because your situation is soooooooooo special so why don't you keep doing things inefficiently and waste years of your life

If that's not belittling, I don't know what's called.

I work with chinese people and they do these kind of things everyday to new people. People mess up, they would yell out, "are you stupid? How do you make such simple mistake?"

And in chinese, "are you ill or something". Chinese people will know what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by BallPeenHammer2

and BTW, I've been on my own for a decade now. I've gone from homeless to $8/hour to what I'm at now, which is about $800/month less than what you make, minus the rough hours.

I pay rent, insurance, EVERYTHING ELSE, and then some.

I still have money left over to save for my future house.

And take girls out.

I don't see why you can't save. Unless you leased a fucking SLS, I don't see why you'd have difficulty with money.

If you do, you have shitty spending habits.

Refer to my reply to DaFonz post.

[achiam]

A.) get rid of car and other unnecessary liabilities in your life.
B.) You need to figure out the road map needed to get into law school.
C.) Schedule whats needed to be done against a timeline of targets, and adhere strictly to it.
D.) Get rid of gf if she's a liability/drain.
E.) Execute plan

In general here's what you will need to do:
1.) Kill your Grade 12 marks, I'm talking near straight As.
2.) Use these marks to get into University, and do a 4 year BA program.
3.) Don't take a full 10 course/2 semester schedule as it will kill your GPA. If needed get a student loan/family help etcetc, and just focus on school, make friends with the nerds, and kill your grades as high as possible.
4.) Go look at law faculties of different universities and look at what they need for you to apply
5.) set aside one summer and do nothing but cram for and write the LSAT.

All in all, if you're serious, this above plan will take you about 6 years from now.

EDIT: Just read your/others' posts above. You sound like you really haven't researched this, and have no inkling of the magnitude of sacrifices needed.
Remember that to get into law school, they look at the average of your entire undergraduate degree coupled with an interview. You will be competing against lots of
HELLA smart kids who are young and have crazy work experience, many of which will be relevant to law school or other volunteer crap. I think your best bet is to go and talk to someone at the Faculty of Law, like an admissions person.

[mr_chin]

This post is NOT ABOUT LAW SCHOOL.

Mod please close it.

[Iceman-19]

We know, it's about you proving what an idiot you are and how stubborn you are when it comes to taking any sort of advice or accepting any information that you ASKED ABOUT. Don't quit your night job.
Posted via RS Mobile

[MindBomber]

I'm sorry, but it's become quite evident that you aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to succeed in an academic program. I would strongly suggest you take a step back, consider your options and register for a vocational program that will allow you to continue to work full time through school, as that is a primary concern apparently.

[DaFonz]

It's so funny how people give you advice and you say shit that basically equates to "I'm special and I'm doing to do things my way. I just wanted the internet to make me feel better about my shitty life."

You're going to be stuck working in shitty jobs for the rest of your life because you aren't willing to progress intelligently (in case people haven't hammered it home enough, 1 high school course at a time is retarded). Go ahead and do things slowly while the rest of the world moves ahead. There are smarter and hungrier people who have the drive and determination to succeed .

[achiam]

.

[TypeRNammer]

I hate to say it but ditch the car. A few people in this mention this many times already but I have to emphasize it.

I made a dumb move back in 2006 buying a new car and financed it for 4 years.

But shit happens and I can't turn back time.

EDIT: If you really wanted to go back to school, start making some major sacrifaces.

Dafonz already laid it out for you, and in good detail too!