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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 01-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #1
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sliding in the snow, impound?!

how to get ticketed, fined and your car impounded

Step 1: have an awesome rwd bmw with snow tires

Step 2: go to the largest mall parking lot in a small hick town after work to blow off steam after a shitty day at work (wait until the mall is closed and the lot is deserted of course)

Step 3: slide around in the snow/ice for 5 minutes

Step 4: get intercepted by a police ghost SUV five minutes in

Step 5: get ticketed $192 for "driving without due consideration" (section 144(1)(b) of the motor vehicle act) - he called it "stunting"

Step 6: get car impounded on the spot for seven fucking days

Step 7: look up the point penalty for 144(1)(b) and see that it is a 6 point penalty meaning an additional fine of $300 - that's right, talking on a cell phone while driving, doing something reckless in traffic, speeding is much worse than what I did....

My questions:

-is this an example of 144(1)(b)? i went to the largest and "safest" lot I could find, the mall was closed and the lot was empty, I drove pretty slow as I have no interest in damaging my own or another person's car, i was also alone so not really showboating or anything

-i've had a warning issued before for something like this (except in the rain rather than snow) - the cop just gave me a warning, was this warning in the system and did it provoke the cop? i have an otherwise clean records with 7+ years of driving with no speeding tickets, accidents that were my fault etc - I should mention i've never done anything like that in a parking lot again until now

-should I dispute? i don't see how this was "worse" than speeding in a school zone, dangerous maneuvers in traffic, driving while using a cell phone - all of which are 2/3 point penalties

Please enlighten me!
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:35 PM   #2
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You're trying to dispute that? Good fucking luck.




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Originally Posted by Explosive911 View Post
Please enlighten me!
Please stay the fuck off the road until you learn how to respect the privilege of having a driver licence.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:47 PM   #3
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he wasn't on the road?
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:48 PM   #4
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You were given a warning before and you did it again?

I think the penalty is a bit excessive though..
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:53 PM   #5
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You were given a warning before and you did it again?

I think the penalty is a bit excessive though..
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I was given a warning a while before this incident happened. Who doesnt go do a couple donuts or slides in the snow?

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You're trying to dispute that? Good fucking luck.






Please stay the fuck off the road until you learn how to respect the privilege of having a driver licence.
I guess you missed the " Mature discussion only."

Thanks for enlightening me
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:07 PM   #6
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144 (1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway

(a) without due care and attention,
(b) without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway, or
(c) at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions.

That is what you were charged for. You can argue that you were giving due consideration to others because of the circumstances (it was deserted with no one around, you were in control and did not want to damage your vehicle or other's property).

You might also say that you were just trying to safely discover the limits of your car in winter driving situations.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:07 PM   #7
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I've had the same ticket given as well but I wasn't in a parking lot, instead making a right turn and the rear end slid out. It wasn't intentional and just my luck, there was a cop car at the intersection. He put on his sirens, pulled me over and asked what's the reason for driving like that. I told him it was not done on purpose and I'm aware of all the other road users. The cop said he'd usually give me a warning but because the back end "crossed the line," he has to give me a ticket. I wasn't going to argue with him with company in the car so I just kept my mouth shut.

When he returned with the ticket his last words were; don't even try disputing the ticket, you got caught driving like lunatic so pay the fine.

I ended up disputing the ticket and he never showed up.

On a side note I was driving on marine drive and there was a silver E39 M5 that drifted from main street on to marine. Reckless? yes, but still
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy View Post
144 (1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway

(a) without due care and attention,
(b) without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway, or
(c) at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions.

That is what you were charged for. You can argue that you were giving due consideration to others because of the circumstances (it was deserted with no one around, you were in control and did not want to damage your vehicle or other's property).

You might also say that you were just trying to safely discover the limits of your car in winter driving situations.
Yeah you've pretty much nailed it...

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Originally Posted by PeanutButter View Post
I've had the same ticket given as well but I wasn't in a parking lot, instead making a right turn and the rear end slid out. It wasn't intentional and just my luck, there was a cop car at the intersection. He put on his sirens, pulled me over and asked what's the reason for driving like that. I told him it was not done on purpose and I'm aware of all the other road users. The cop said he'd usually give me a warning but because the back end "crossed the line," he has to give me a ticket. I wasn't going to argue with him with company in the car so I just kept my mouth shut.

When he returned with the ticket his last words were; don't even try disputing the ticket, you got caught driving like lunatic so pay the fine.

I ended up disputing the ticket and he never showed up.
Yeah your situation is a bit different. It's much riskier on the roads than in a parking lot.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:12 PM   #9
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^ So dispute it. The penalties are really quite high.
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:16 PM   #10
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^ So dispute it. The penalties are really quite high.
Yup I'm just trying to get the cop's point of view, are there any that frequent this sub forum?
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:18 PM   #11
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dispute it.

just tell them either:

1) becausewinterrallycar
2) you are a noob
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:05 PM   #12
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Christ, and to think I took my car to an empty lot to tune up my steering in the snow skills so I wasn't figuring it out on busy roads...


I've had my car slide a bit in turns today, and I've watched as many others have as well.

Should we all be fined?

Perhaps I should fire off my dashcam video to SPD of a police officer sliding through a stop sign...
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:23 PM   #13
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Is a parking lot of a business not considered private property?
I'm just wondering for my sake now. I wouldn't do this on the roads, but if it's private lot, do the same rules apply?
Is there a "safe" or designated place that people can go and do this?

Don't mean to threadjack. I do find your fines extremely excessive.
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:24 PM   #14
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I definitely think the cop was way too heavy-handed in this instance, given the circumstances. What you did is certainly against the MVA, but the cop doesn't have to slap you with the most serious infraction he can find.

If it were me, I would dispute it, for two reason. One, maybe he won't show up in court. Two, the judge might grant some leniency. If you get a hard-ball judge as well, then tough luck.
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #15
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Fuck, that's shitty. I used to do this every morning when the parking lot was empty at my office in Ontario. Good times!
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:02 PM   #16
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Well first off, let's not come under the illusion that you were attempting to improve your snow driving Snow drifting and proper winter incident driving use two very separate tactics. That said we've all done it, hell, I remember actually going out with a friend's dad when he first got his "N" to practice actual snow driving around cones in a nearby lot.

Unfortunately, since 2010, things aren't so favorable.

Parking lot or not, it is classified as a highway

“highway” includes

(c) every private place or passageway to which the public, for the purpose of the parking or servicing of vehicles, has access or is invited,

The authority for impoundment is given under MVA 251 1(e) given the following:

(e) has driven or operated a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or in a stunt and the peace officer intends... charge with offence under 144 (1)

Therefore, to contest the impound, you would need to argue your case against the following criteria;

Quote:
"stunt" means circumstances in which, taking into account the condition of the highway, traffic, visibility and weather, the driver or operator of a motor vehicle is driving or operating the motor vehicle without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that is likely to cause harm to an individual or likely to distract, startle or interfere with users of the highway by doing any of the following:

(a) causing any or all of the motor vehicle's tires to lift from the road surface;
(b) causing the motor vehicle to lose traction while turning the motor vehicle;
(c) driving the motor vehicle in a manner to cause the motor vehicle to spin;
(d) driving the motor vehicle in a lane intended for oncoming traffic for longer than necessary to pass another vehicle;
(e) slowing or stopping the motor vehicle in a manner that prevents other motor vehicles from passing or in a manner that blocks or impedes other motor vehicles;
(f) without justification, driving as close as possible to another motor vehicle, a pedestrian, or a fixed object.
Specific to you are (b) and (c). You did do both, the question is the whether or not it was does in a manner that was or had the potential to

- be without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway
- in a manner that is likely to cause harm to an individual
- likely to distract, startle or interfere with users of the highway

It will also serve as your only defence to MVA 144 (1)(b)

(b) without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway, or

You'd have to pull up some case law on on exactly how "reasonable consideration" is applied. You'll find that the test is that of a "reasonable person" - whether an ordinary individual would consider the situation safe, unlikely to harm etc - borrowing from the Ontario HTA of careless driving = driving [that] departs sufficiently from the standard of a prudent and reasonable driver to make the driving deserving of punishment

Best I could find quickly

Quote:
R. V. McDorman,
Judge Robinson says, “Considered, in the context of the words, ‘without reasonable consideration’, there must be an onus on every vehicle owner to adhere to a reasonable standard for his own safety, the safety of his own vehicle and the safety of others using the highway”.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:07 PM   #17
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A parking to which the public has access is a "highway" by definition and the rules apply. Spending "5 minutes" doing what the OP tells us he had already been warned not to do, but this time on snow, obviously attracted appropriate attention. At least it was long enough and "visible" enough that it caused the concern of the public who called it in or the Cop who saw it happening. I wasn't here, only the OP, the Cop and maybe a witness were there and enough of them thought it was a concern. OP has a right to dispute the VT and try to convince the JP he was not doing what he was charged with.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:09 PM   #18
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Specific to you are (b) and (c). You did do both, the question is the whether or not it was does in a manner that was or had the potential to

- be without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway
- in a manner that is likely to cause harm to an individual
- likely to distract, startle or interfere with users of the highway

It will also serve as your only defence to MVA 144 (1)(b)

(b) without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway, or

You'd have to pull up some case law on on exactly how "reasonable consideration" is applied. You'll find that the test is that of a "reasonable person" - whether an ordinary individual would consider the situation safe, unlikely to harm etc - borrowing from the Ontario HTA of careless driving = driving [that] departs sufficiently from the standard of a prudent and reasonable driver to make the driving deserving of punishment

Best I could find quickly
Yep I just found that section of the MVA too, doesn't look like I have too much ammo for a dispute unfortunately.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:16 PM   #19
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Yep I just found that section of the MVA too, doesn't look like I have too much ammo for a dispute unfortunately.
No unfortunately not.

Unless you were at the backside large business, with only a few entrances, surrounded on all 3 sides by a barrier, forest or something that separates you from moving out of the parking lot, and making it extremely unlikely for anyone to be in the vicinity.

If there was a sidewalk or roadway next to the lot, your fate is sealed IMO - the only reason for dispute would be to defer the payment of the ticket and the points, or a hail mary on the cop failing to attend.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #20
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No unfortunately not.

Unless you were at the backside large business, with only a few entrances, surrounded on all 3 sides by a barrier, forest or something that separates you from moving out of the parking lot, and making it extremely unlikely for anyone to be in the vicinity.

If there was a sidewalk or roadway next to the lot, your fate is sealed IMO - the only reason for dispute would be to defer the payment of the ticket and the points, or a hail mary on the cop failing to attend.
Okay thanks for the insight. Really wish he just gave me a ticket or warned me, I really was being careful and would've fucked off if I had known the consequences. oh well
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:50 PM   #21
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dispute it. Wouldn't hurt.

I had one a few years back, from Lansdowne mall. When I went to court, I talked to him before entering. Apologized, and stated that yes, I was having a bit of fun. I told him straight up that I wasn't racing any cars, I was careful not to over reach my manuevers (trying to inch closer and closer to the curb/objects) and generally just using it as a bit of practice as well.

He accepted my explanation, and threw the ticket out.

It's really a 50/50 mix.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:51 PM   #22
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But really, the impound and the whole 9 yards is a bit unnecessary. You're the first person I've heard had that happen to them =p
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #23
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OP has a right to dispute the VT and try to convince the JP he was not doing what he was charged with.
Does he really have a right to dispute it? The car has been inpounded. There's no reversing that.

Guilty before proven innocent.

I saw the back end of a transit bus kick out earlier. Perhaps that transit driver should be hit with "Drive without due care" fines.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:16 PM   #24
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Just say you were testing some bmw traction control features to see what the car would be handle like in case of an emergency.
Enjoy the bmw tax, betcha if u did it in a mustang you woulda gotten a high five instead.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:28 PM   #25
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Does he really have a right to dispute it? The car has been inpounded. There's no reversing that.

Guilty before proven innocent.

I saw the back end of a transit bus kick out earlier. Perhaps that transit driver should be hit with "Drive without due care" fines.
Nice try. You're comparing apples and oranges. Maybe if the bus driver also come to the parking lot and sliding around purposely, he would deserve that.

You may bring it in front of a judge, and he/she would take into account your clean driving record and reduce the fines. The police don't take that into account. They just write the ticket based on what they saw. Was he sliding around on a highway purposely? Check. That is pretty "guilty" to me. I have doubt a passerby saw that and called in. Shit happens, deal with it.

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