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Old 03-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #76
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I don't think having a few units of social (or non-market rental) housing is as bad as one may think. People tend to adapt to their surroundings and if you're a small fish in a big lake of well-to-do yuppies, you're likely to keep a low profile and try to blend in.

In fact, having some people on social assistance living in a building with well off people will only motivate them to improve their lives.
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Well isn't that the happy little goal. In actuality, a lot of these people are fine examples of already growing in their surroundings. We only have a few ministry cases in our buildings(which are all straight rental) and I'll tell you, all but one looks and lives the part. One guy actually thinks he's a good tenant(his words) and he told me this while we had a dog inspector checking his place for bed bugs and right before she came out of the apartment saying she could not do so because of the amount of food on the floor.

Market rental of lower suites that don't sell well is one thing, but a couple of these developments that are mixed social/market are ones that based on my experience would not be something I'd wish to purchase in order to live there.

Call me crazy, but don't people usually buy to get away from crazy fucking neighbors that don't give a shit?
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #77
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I don't think having a few units of social (or non-market rental) housing is as bad as one may think. People tend to adapt to their surroundings and if you're a small fish in a big lake of well-to-do yuppies, you're likely to keep a low profile and try to blend in.

In fact, having some people on social assistance living in a building with well off people will only motivate them to improve their lives.
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Agreed... It's not like social housing is for 100% criminals who are going to turn shit upside down.

I think this would have been a good investment for people. Kind of regret turning it down when I had pre-sale couple weeks prior...
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:15 AM   #78
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^ I'd rather see a few units of social housing sprinkled in various buildings rather than have blocks of social housing. When you have blocks, you end up with ghettos. (Think the projects in the US)

When you live in a high-rise, there will always be problem residents. In our building, we've had our usual share of drug dealers and even a guy who was running a brothel. At least with social housing, there's a guaranteed stream of revenue for the strata.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:55 AM   #79
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Make no mistake. No one is putting in a social housing component because it makes them feel good to help people. It's done in exchange for extra density and taller buildings and things that make money for the developer, that then turns around in the pre-sale phase and tries to turn it into a selling feature just like a 24" stove that people say, "its not small, its european styled!"
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:08 PM   #80
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I want to correct everyone in the thread that there will be NO SOCIAL housing in this project.

Instead it's what is known as Short Term Incentive Rentals program (STIR and as per by the City of Vancouver).

What is this?
The developer will build and allocate a % of the suites as rentals only (unstratified and not for sale). Developers build this in exchange for higher density, reduced development levies and reduced CAC's.

Pretty much at the marine gateway the developer will build and allocate 10% (approx 46 suites) to this STIR program.

These are not social housing (i.e it's not owned/rented out by the BC government or ministry of whatever) but owned by the developer and can only be rented out at a market prevailing rate. There are also some legalities involved such that the units can never be sold and is registered as a rental for the lifetime of the building.

What are some of the pros:
- More new rental stock is added to the rental market, thus allowing for people who cannot afford to own to buy but rent instead.
- People can get a brand new suite.

What are some of the cons:
- Developer can charge whatever market rate they like (IMO it won't be cheap probably 10-15% cheaper that what you find in Downtown)
- Pending on how well the rentals are managed by the developer (and it's agents) it can be a complete shit show pending if they are a slumlord or a great landlord.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:44 PM   #81
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Yeah as per the project i believe both 1 & 2 BR uses the same 24" appliances.

They definitely aren't your run of the mill cheapest GE kind. They are the better "blomberg" ones with a few bell and whistle features
And as per Gridlock's reply, I personally would like my appliances to be bigger as well but the fact is there's only so much space available in an apartment and the industry has set the standard to be 24" and 32". However, I will say that more and more developers nowadays are putting higher end appliances to compete with each other.

Concord is now putting Miele (the LV of appliances) appliances in most of their projects as a standard finish. Cosmo was one of the first projects that had the option to upgrade to these finishings vs their higher end projects like the Erickson (etc) that came standard. (It should (and is) have anyways considering a starting price for a suite there is in the $2M!) It still doesn't change the fact they are smaller than a home but..it is what it is. At least there's improvement to the old days..LG that breaks down within the first year.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:23 PM   #82
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And nothing says "I don't have a real home" like cooking on a 24" stove. That's what we use in all the 1 bedrooms and most of the 2's in our rental building. Our apartment has the full 30"(not 32) and its a night and day difference.

The apartment sized fridges and stoves are crap. They are built like crap and work like crap. Same with the smaller fridges. I'm sure there are a higher end unit out there that we obviously aren't in the market for, but I haven't seen them personally.

Myself, whenever I look at developments such as these I think if I wanted to buy something, don't I want to live in something more than what is available in a typical rental one bedroom?
I have friends who live in similar layouts to some of the apartments you two manage and they all have those uber small appliances. High end brand or not, they're absolutely shitty to cook on. While I know a lot of people wont do this, it's still nearly impossible to use multiple elements going at the same time because you can't fit pots or pans on the top without them banging into each other. The oven portion is tiny - as someone mentioned, you can't even get a turkey, much less a larger ham into many of them. And the fridges they supply? If you're stocking up for a family -- hell, even if you're stocking up for just yourself and perhaps a child -- there's no way you can fit everything in.

I understand the reasoning behind them, I just don't think they're suitable at all for someone who actually cooks at home for more than just their own self.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:34 PM   #83
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Full-size appliances or nothing. You might as well have a mini-fridge and hot pot if you're going to have a 24" range.

It's nice to have that Miele on the door, but Whirlpool makes acceptable appliances. I've had mine for 5 years and the only issue I've had is a worn out burner switch.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:52 PM   #84
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In our building, we've had our usual share of drug dealers and even a guy who was running a brothel. At least with social housing, there's a guaranteed stream of revenue for the strata.
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Sounds like my gf's apartment around brentwood I could've sworn someone was running a brothel in her apartment too. There were always single male visitors going up to the 25th floor. I should've went up there too.. maybe I was missing out

On a side note, I am a big fan of the brentwood area and could easily see myself buying a place there.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:52 PM   #85
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:13 PM   #86
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:40 AM   #87
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Well isn't that the happy little goal. In actuality, a lot of these people are fine examples of already growing in their surroundings. We only have a few ministry cases in our buildings(which are all straight rental) and I'll tell you, all but one looks and lives the part. One guy actually thinks he's a good tenant(his words) and he told me this while we had a dog inspector checking his place for bed bugs and right before she came out of the apartment saying she could not do so because of the amount of food on the floor.

Market rental of lower suites that don't sell well is one thing, but a couple of these developments that are mixed social/market are ones that based on my experience would not be something I'd wish to purchase in order to live there.

Call me crazy, but don't people usually buy to get away from crazy fucking neighbors that don't give a shit?
Totally agree on this one.

I wouldn't be too happy if I had to buy a home in a condo tower where there's social housing in it.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for social housing at the expense of government programs (City of Vancouver, BC Government, etc) just not on the dime of the private sector.

Just keep social housing separated. For a project that has market condos (one for sale) and rentals (ones that are rented out by market rate) its fine by me
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:10 PM   #88
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^^ U mean like the Olympic Village?
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:15 PM   #89
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For those who use the skytrain and bus as their main form of transportation there are other forms of Non-Alternative transportation such as Rental Cars/Trucks, Zipcars Etc.

Perfect for your "Ikea Runs" or the "I need to buy a whole cars worth of stuff in one day" Days.

So yeah just walk in their shoes for a min if you can.

Oh yeah show me a chart how the marine condo building is the same price per/SqFt as another condos in South Van? Provide building costs and quality of materials list too just to be accurate. If not quit pulling figures outta ur butt to make yourself look like a housing market Guru.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:48 AM   #90
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I just don't feel good about the Real Estate Market at the moment. Foreign investments coming in and driving the prices up (yes, both sale prices and rentals) resulting in record-high debt for locals.

What went up must go down. Eventually.

My $0.02
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:05 PM   #91
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I just don't feel good about the Real Estate Market at the moment. Foreign investments coming in and driving the prices up (yes, both sale prices and rentals) resulting in record-high debt for locals.

What went up must go down. Eventually.

My $0.02
Beyond that, cheap money drives most of the boom in a real estate market. When cheap money goes away, so too does the boom.

That's what drove the US collapse. Cheap money combined with giving it to anyone that asked for it.

Our money is cheap, but not US cheap, and our banks maintained standards in lending. Therefore, we wouldn't be as prone to their level of correction.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:48 PM   #92
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I just don't feel good about the Real Estate Market at the moment. Foreign investments coming in and driving the prices up (yes, both sale prices and rentals) resulting in record-high debt for locals.

What went up must go down. Eventually.

My $0.02
Haven't ppl been saying this for like a decade?
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #93
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Haven't ppl been saying this for like a decade?
At least since 2004. Bought our first condo in 2003 just before the markets took off.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:17 PM   #94
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Beyond that, cheap money drives most of the boom in a real estate market. When cheap money goes away, so too does the boom.

That's what drove the US collapse. Cheap money combined with giving it to anyone that asked for it.

Our money is cheap, but not US cheap, and our banks maintained standards in lending. Therefore, we wouldn't be as prone to their level of correction.
Not yet, but with interest rates as low as they are (3.99% over 10 years).... we may run into a problem in 5-10 years when these 2.99 and 3.99% rates change to 6,7,8% rates and salaries still have not gone up.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:57 PM   #95
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Haven't ppl been saying this for like a decade?
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Mortgage rate @ 3-4% is extremely low.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:05 PM   #96
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Not yet, but with interest rates as low as they are (3.99% over 10 years).... we may run into a problem in 5-10 years when these 2.99 and 3.99% rates change to 6,7,8% rates and salaries still have not gone up.
a 0.5% increase in mortgage rate will knock the real estate price down 5%

I think I read it somewhere last year
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:34 PM   #97
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Not yet, but with interest rates as low as they are (3.99% over 10 years).... we may run into a problem in 5-10 years when these 2.99 and 3.99% rates change to 6,7,8% rates and salaries still have not gone up.
that's not entirely true.

in the states you can get 30 year fixed mortgages, right now I get them in the 6.x% region (that's today for a non resident for investment purposes - so there is likely a small premium on this compared to if i were a local wanting to live in teh property) - so you wouldn't care less about if rates go up or down, other than their effect on house prices.

Now, that is where things got interesting - I heavily invest in US real estate, and people are walking away from properties because its just not economical to stay in them, when paying $2000 a month on a mortgage for a property with negative equity, when you can rent the equivalent for $1200 or $1100, why wouldn't you - and your credit rating, which will get hurt, will be back to normal in 4 or so years - recourse loans or not, this is happening

now, another aspect of this was job losses - significant unemployment drove this quickly and to large effect, b/c ppl just didn't have incomes to pay for their mortgages... but then again, BC & Canada's unemployment rates are ticking up, Vancouver has no real economy (PLEASE SOMEBODY, TELL ME WHAT ECONOMIC DRIVERS WE HAVE HERE!??!?!?!? tourism? not really, mining? yes we have head offices, but thats not significant, technology? a couple good start ups... lululemon?)

we are FUCKED, when the government and its agencies start tightening up on things such as automatic mortgage renewals, 30 year mortgages turning into 25 max, 100% ltv mortgages (thanks to cash back mortgages) AND THEN add on top of that increasing mortgage rates over the coming years... people will stop buying (and no, please don't say 'vancouver is different' or 'the chinese are buying' - vancouver is no different at all, housing prices are based, fundamentally, on freedom & ease of cash and economic fundamentals, and will, over the long run raise by 2-3% p.a., and the chinese, there are chinese buyers, there are arabic buyers, great - they don't push the market, they make up a relatively small part about it, and just because someone 'looks chinese', step back before getting on that 'the chinese are buying' bandwagon and consider that they are actually canadian citizens who work in Vancouver, pay taxes, and are taking out a mortgage - so guess what, they're not immune to all that I have stated above)

sales will dry up, inventory will increase and be on the market for longer, prices will decrease which will actually start a faster fall - i'm no prophet, I just am a business man who has studied economics and other boring stuff who doesn't buy into the BS media. It will happen, it has happened before all over the world... and jsut remember, when everyone else is saying 'its different here' - just know the contrarian view is the right view (not the opposite view, just a different view)
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:03 PM   #98
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sales will dry up, inventory will increase and be on the market for longer, prices will decrease which will actually start a faster fall - i'm no prophet, I just am a business man who has studied economics and other boring stuff who doesn't buy into the BS media. It will happen, it has happened before all over the world... and jsut remember, when everyone else is saying 'its different here' - just know the contrarian view is the right view (not the opposite view, just a different view)
I agree 100% with the bit about interest rates. As soon as interest rates jump back to 6% or higher, people who are stretched thin may not afford the minimum payments on their mortgages. Or massive economic downturn where people are getting their hours cut back or laid off.

But don't down play the Chinese money. China has over 1 billion people and many of them have earned a fair bit of money in the last decade and now that China has opened up, many of them are looking to Vancouver. Where else in the world can to go to some place and not have to learn a word of their language and have some of the best chinese food, just like how it was made at home.

If and when all the China people who bought in Vancouver decide to sell and head back to China, then we will have a situation where people have to lower their prices in an effort to sell and the market will come down. But it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon though.

A prime example of this is my current building. When we first moved in, it was primarily Korean students. In the last 2 years, the trend has become all China students renting since China opened their doors and let their people have easier access to leaving the country.

But this is just my opinion that just happens to echo those of a few others I know who is in the real estate industry in Vancouver.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:27 PM   #99
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tiny units in a boring area that a bunch of rich chinese people bought in order to profit off. I don't really care. typical vancouver bullshit.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:29 PM   #100
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What economic factors show that interest rates will rise? From what I have seen, with the trillion dollars of debt the US have, they cannot afford to raise interest rates which is the same effect of QE3.
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