Fair Taxation

[will068]

Good intentions, but I do not like the idea of government handling more tax money. The smaller the government, the better.

[BoredAtWork]

Remember to add these to our "post" tax income

- Gasoline tax everytime you fill up
- PST/GST/HST whatever they are called for almost every dollar you spend
- cigarette tax everytime you light up
- liquor tax everytime you pop a bud light.

and by the way for all who you think RRSP, or tax "refund" is awesome, they took away your money all year and didn't even bother to give you interest. If you take that money and invested in a money market fund, at least you get 2% back to help out on your taxes.

The money is yours, you earned it with your abilities. The government should not have to withhold whats yours until it is time to collect.

Canadian government taxes are worse than ill-managed US banks.

Thats my 2 cents

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by mx703

Why is it fair that the people that had to go through all this hardship have to pay more tax?

I don't suggest that people that worked their ass off should be paying more. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest that everyone should be taxed at an equal rate. Nevertheless, my parents have an advantage that's not given to the general public because they could afford to hire people to use (or even exploit) the loopholes that our complicated tax system created.

I won't go into details, but the structure allows them to pay lower tax (%-wise) than a guy flipping burgers at McD along with plans to expand far into the foreseeable future.

This is where the unfairness is at. My parents enjoy the public services/benefits just as much as everyone else do but they effectively pay less (%-wise) than the general public despite how our tax system is structured.

Now, let's say that we close all the loopholes and make a 20% tax rate to everyone. A guy earning 30k (24k after tax) a year still barely survives, while riches making 1M or more (800k after tax) still lives in a very good life.

So, riches aren't paying more, they still contribute the exact same share (giving out 1/5 of your income for all the public services/befit you enjoy) but the whole system become (at least) more fair to everyone.

[BoredAtWork]

Originally Posted by Hehe

I don't suggest that people that worked their ass off should be paying more. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest that everyone should be taxed at an equal rate. Nevertheless, my parents have an advantage that's not given to the general public because they could afford to hire people to use (or even exploit) the loopholes that our complicated tax system created.

I won't go into details, but the structure allows them to pay lower tax (%-wise) than a guy flipping burgers at McD along with plans to expand far into the foreseeable future.

This is where the unfairness is at. My parents enjoy the public services/benefits just as much as everyone else do but they effectively pay less (%-wise) than the general public despite how our tax system is structured.

Now, let's say that we close all the loopholes and make a 20% tax rate to everyone. A guy earning 30k (24k after tax) a year still barely survives, while riches making 1M or more (800k after tax) still lives in a very good life.

So, riches aren't paying more, they still contribute the exact same share (giving out 1/5 of your income for all the public services/befit you enjoy) but the whole system become (at least) more fair to everyone.

Its not a loophole necessarily. Theoretically, your parents hires people and create jobs. The government gives a tax break for people who creates business and stimulates growth. Granted if your parents actually don't hire anyone and do not create any business, it maybe taking advantage of the tax system.

If you tax these job creating business further than the guy who flips burgers, there is no incentive to create business in Canada, which in turn hurts the economy more than a mere tax break. (no business = no jobs = everyone sit on their asses and collect welfare).

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by BoredAtWork

Its not a loophole necessarily. Theoretically, your parents hires people and create jobs. The government gives a tax break for people who creates business and stimulates growth. Granted if your parents actually don't hire anyone and do not create any business, it maybe taking advantage of the tax system.

If you tax these job creating business further than the guy who flips burgers, there is no incentive to create business in Canada, which in turn hurts the economy more than a mere tax break. (no business = no jobs = everyone sit on their asses and collect welfare).

No offense but this ideology that more taxes sacrifice job is utterly BS that companies/government want you to believe. I know it's a theory in economics

Business will only stop creating business when we reach negative return to scale.

If we eliminates *creative* accountants and lawyers, these talents would simply shift to other business or practices.

If my parents didn't spend money on these lawyers and accountants, they will simply invest or spend these money elsewhere. They won't sit on a pile of cash.

[Ferra]

funny this is coming from a group which will benefit from higher taxes...

higher taxes for everyone > more government money > more funding for medical care profession

[tonyzoomzoom]

the doctors don't need to worry about wanting to pay more taxes. Once the NDP's form government in our next provincial election, they will be spending so much $$ that there'd be no choice but to raise taxes...

[fobulaus]

Originally Posted by Alatar

If you're at 500k+, sure, odds are you're also likely a "business" owner whether it's your own doctor's office/clinic, dental office/clinic, stake in a company, etc. and you're writing a LOT of stuff off when you do your taxes.

Still think you're paying $200k in taxes? Or are you paying maybe $100k in taxes and writing off the rest towards the lease, your transportation, items you may need for said business, etc.

The conversation of "taxes" and "higher" or "lower" can be addressed in too many different ways with too many different ins and outs that change the entire playing field completely. Probably a mistake that I even bothered joining in the discussion.

Oh I agree with you.. Sure, if you're a business owner, you might only pay 35% taxes instead of 43%... But IMO that is 35% too much..

Lets look at it from another prospective.. Instead of percentage of taxes, let's look at benefits / total taxes (%) paid... Somebody who paid 100K in taxes will probably get back 1-2% per year in benefits.. They pay full medical, full HST/GST, full income taxes, etc, and get nothing in return.

Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

[gars]

Originally Posted by fobulaus

Oh I agree with you.. Sure, if you're a business owner, you might only pay 35% taxes instead of 43%... But IMO that is 35% too much..

Lets look at it from another prospective.. Instead of percentage of taxes, let's look at benefits / total taxes (%) paid... Somebody who paid 100K in taxes will probably get back 1-2% per year in benefits.. They pay full medical, full HST/GST, full income taxes, etc, and get nothing in return.

Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

Where do you get 1-2% from? Even the person studying Med School in Canada had their education subsidized by taxes paid by everyone.

[fobulaus]

Ok if I make 250K a year and paid 100K in taxes, how much money will the government give me? What type of benefits would I be getting without paying full taxes for?

Assuming the government isn't in a huge budget deficit, every $1 they spend is $1 provided by the tax payers... If I paid $100 and everyone else pays $10, how much money do you think will be spent on me?

I know a couple UBC med students and they've racked up about 200K in bank loans for being in school for so long.. Overall tuition is around 100K+.. What type of subsidy are you talking about?

[gars]

Originally Posted by fobulaus

I know a couple UBC med students and they've racked up about 200K in bank loans for being in school for so long.. Overall tuition is around 100K+.. What type of subsidy are you talking about?

yep, my sister graduated from UBC Med a few years back. UBC Med tuition is about 15k a year. I don't know the exact amount, but I'm certain that the government is easily spending 10k per Med Student per year. The amount is smaller for students in less specialized programs, and for undergraduate degrees, but all post-secondary education in Canada is subsidized by tax money. Some programs (especially in trades) even have grants because we are short people who are specialized in those fields.

Think about it this way, the government has sunk 40k into a medical student, who may or may not pass medical school, who may or may not end up working as a doctor, possibly in the states - and not pay any taxes. If your friends took out 200k in loans, they probably haven't worked a lot, meaning they probably haven't paid a lot of taxes. All this is an investment by the government.

[fobulaus]

Alright, I won't argue with you.. 10K a year it is... Now lets calculate how much taxes your sister will pay over the next 35 years.

[jasonturbo]

Just to be clear, this wasn't racially motivated, just happened to be the first demotivational poster that came up on google search lol.

[Death2Theft]

Flat tax /end thread.

[bing]

Originally Posted by gars

Where do you get 1-2% from? Even the person studying Med School in Canada had their education subsidized by taxes paid by everyone.

I disagree that "everyone" is subsidizing it. The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of tax payers is actually really low and of what they do pay, most get that money back through services (i.e. health care). It is and has always been the small percentage of high income earners that are paying the majority of the income taxes. In the US, "the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002".

[Meowjin]

because there are millions of people out there on welfare.

really guys?

REALLY?

Now look at someone who sits at home and does nothing.. This person pays no income taxes, no medical, but still gets paid (welfare) for doing nothing.

Ideally I think we should pay 0% income taxes.. Do I agree with government bailouts? No, not at all... But I do believe the government should reward people for their handwork and success..

Someone who studied med for 10+ years should be awarded $1 for every $1 they earn, not 55 cents.

1) Welfare is pennies.

2) No one wants to be on welfare, and the people that do are usually drug abusers/suffer from mental disabilites.

3) Success is not a good term. Because we often associate people who are successful who makes a lot of money, we think that we are attacking people who are "successful".

And for the record a doctor will still walk home with well above 6 figures, so don't cry that they are not walking home with their well deserved cut.

But if anything they should attack business owners/real rich fucks who hide their money offshore.

They are job creators yes, but if the market is there they will keep operating.

[fobulaus]

With the exception of people with mental/physical disabilities, no one has an excuse to not have a job. Doing drugs is not an excuse. These people "don't want to be on welfare", but they don't hate it enough to get a real job. You know how many bums I see around Metrotown in the mid-20s who are perfectly capable of getting a job?

There are more than just welfare that taxpayers are subsidizing... What about free medical benefits (this is not pennies), housing for low income individuals, food/shelter for drug addicts, etc... These are all things I don't want to pay for... If I wanted to do charity, I will donate my own money to people who are starving not because of their laziness or drug addictions.

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

And for the record a doctor will still walk home with well above 6 figures, so don't cry that they are not walking home with their well deserved cut.

Actually, doctors deserve to walk away with every penny of the 6 figures they're making. People who've made terrible decisions in their life, on the other hand, should not cry about not getting subsidized at other peoples expense.

[Meowjin]

Originally Posted by fobulaus

Actually, doctors deserve to walk away with every penny of the 6 figures they're making. People who've made terrible decisions in their life, on the other hand, should not cry about not getting subsidized at other peoples expense.

Life is defined by luck, being at the right place at the right time and by a good family/upbring support. I came from a broken family, and was orphaned from a young age, I receive assistance from the government, my school is more subsidized then the average bear and I probably have to work 10 times harder than someone else who is going for the same goals as I do.

Again, you are just assuming everyone is starting off at the same advantage.

And there are a lot of bad doctors out there. And Unemployement is at 7.3 percent. A skilled professional or labourer who is laid off will not work an 8 dollar an hour job when EI pays more (which is what it's there for).

[gars]

Originally Posted by fobulaus

Alright, I won't argue with you.. 10K a year it is... Now lets calculate how much taxes your sister will pay over the next 35 years.

My argument isn't that she will be paying more in her lifetime in tax. It's that our system helps those in need. When she is a student, she isn't paying tax. She has the potential to be in the top bracket for tax, but she needs help by having her education subsidized. Without that subsidy, she can't afford to go to medical school, and many people are in the same boat.

It's not even just about 10k a year. It's about being in school for 8 years, paying tuition, and not having the time to work much.

You bring up your friends who went to medical school. What if UBC was a private university, and medical school tuition was 35k a year? What if their undergrad cost 20k a year. Tuition alone would cost them 220k, not including living expenses. Without our semi-socialist system, they probably would not be able to afford to go to medical school without having their tuition subsidized by taxpayers. Yes, they will end up paying more taxes, but without this system, they will just be a middle class citizen like most people. You can't have one without the other.

[fobulaus]

^

Essential the government is investing in our future by subsidizing medical school.. Why do banks give out 200K line of credit to 1st year med students? For them, this is an investment that will give them a better return in the long run... Same idea with med school subsidization...

From a financial standpoint, what do you think a med student would do if they had to pay 300K to become a doctor but never have to pay a cent of tax for the rest of their life? I bet 99.9% of them would choose to have their tuition doubled. You could argue that some students would not be able to afford it, but I bet banks would increase their line of credit knowing their salary will nearly double in the future..

[fobulaus]

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

Life is defined by luck, being at the right place at the right time and by a good family/upbring support. I came from a broken family, and was orphaned from a young age, I receive assistance from the government, my school is more subsidized then the average bear and I probably have to work 10 times harder than someone else who is going for the same goals as I do.

Again, you are just assuming everyone is starting off at the same advantage.

And there are a lot of bad doctors out there. And Unemployement is at 7.3 percent. A skilled professional or labourer who is laid off will not work an 8 dollar an hour job when EI pays more (which is what it's there for).

I bet a med school student has to work 10 times as hard as me and you to be where they are. With our educational system in Canada, it should not be hard to secure a 25K job and affording your own basic expenses. These people are not the reason why our income tax rates are so high.

You had an unfortunate childhood but sounds like you're doing alright for yourself. This is actually the point I'm trying to make. I'm not okay with people who spend taxpayers money but make no contribution to the society. Our current tax system supports these type of people at the expense of others.

Now if you look at EI... This is a great system... Essentially we're all buying unemployment insurance and securing our own future. This is the way it should be. Now I wish if only CPP was the same way.

[gars]

Originally Posted by fobulaus

^

Essential the government is investing in our future by subsidizing medical school.. Why do banks give out 200K line of credit to 1st year med students? For them, this is an investment that will give them a better return in the long run... Same idea with med school subsidization...

From a financial standpoint, what do you think a med student would do if they had to pay 300K to become a doctor but never have to pay a cent of tax for the rest of their life? I bet 99.9% of them would choose to have their tuition doubled. You could argue that some students would not be able to afford it, but I bet banks would increase their line of credit knowing their salary will nearly double in the future..

That's the issue, everything is an investment. The safe injection sites are an investment, their purpose is harm reduction - because without it, our health care system would be hit even harder.

Welfare, gov't subsidized housing, all these things are all investments. They provide people with a higher standard of living, they prevent slums from forming in our city, they help prevent people from resorting to crime to feed themselves.

Will all people on welfare ever pull themselves together to get a job and get out of this cycle, probably not all. But society as a whole benefits better with this system.

[jasonturbo]

There are people that come from broken homes and traumatic pasts that do great things with their lives. For the majority of the population who does not suffer from a debilitating mental or physical condition, there is really nothing stopping them from working two jobs, attending night school to upgrade, taking out a student loan, and getting into any university program they desire, or achieving any other goal related to being a functional and contributing member of society.

The "poor me" attitude is for people that don't want to work hard to make things better for themselves, drug addicts are far more selfish than any irritated taxpayer.

Keep giving these people hand outs and they will keep taking them... Forever.

[Meowjin]

I work 2 jobs, and go to night school. Thanks for the generalization.

Again "these people" are a tiny minority of the population.

[LIKEABOSS]

F U losers who think STEALING, err "taxing" the most productive people in society and giving it to the least productive is "fair." Sure, its fair if you're a welfare queen, on social security, or get some other kind of hand out from the government. Oh and of course, the vampires, aka "public sector workers" will conveniently help themselves to a huge chunk of said taxes, and so do the politicians and their buddies.

Bozos who argue for higher taxation are worse than slaves. These useful idiots (Mindbomber et al.) empower our overlords to milk us like the cattle that we are. We are taxed on our work, we are taxed on our food, we are taxed on our shelter-essentially we spend half our lives slaving away for the government and these idiots think thats not enough LOL. You liberal (really Communist) numskulls who believe that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT (through force) TO OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY are despicable.

This Canadian (Western) attitude of entitlement disgusts me to the core. "Give me FREE HEALTHCARE, Give me FREE EDUCATION, Give me FREE WELFARE, Give me FREE DAYCARE, GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME." Yet these numskulls never ask (conveniently), WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? Oh yea, it comes from "the government." What they're really saying is, "Let's confiscate wealth from the most productive (think hardest working, most intelligent) people in society so I can have more FREE STUFF HORAY.. Suckers!"

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money." -Margaret Thatcher