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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:24 AM   #51
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We have a tax problem in Canada? Last I checked, it's the US that ignored reality and let the ideology fools go wild. Why are we talking about this?
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Old 05-16-2012, 08:33 AM   #52
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For those of you that have never done the math... tax rates by province.

(These tax rates reflect Federal and Provincial Income Taxes combined with Federal and Provincial Sales Taxes, based on the high possible tax bracket, and based on paying only that maximum rate applicable, as doing the math for each and every level of taxation would require me to establish some sort of fixed income level for all provinces and spend more time screwing around with a calculator.)

Alberta: 43%
BC: 55.7%
MB: 58.7%
NB: 56.3%
NL: 55.3%
NWT: 48.05%
NS: 65%
NU: 45.5%
ON: 53.6%
PEI: 61.2%
QC: 67.975%
SK: 54%
YK: 46.76%

For an average national rate of 54.69% if you're making big money.

Don't forget other taxes the governement collects, such as fuel tax, recycling taxes etc.

And some of you support paying MORE taxes???

So take NS for instance, let's play the tax game:

Income tax rates are as follows:

So let's say Johnny Fisherman grosses 59180$
- Fed/Prov Income Tax $14,830
- CPP $2,306.70 (Taxes)
- EI Premiums $839.97 (More taxes)

Leaving Johnny with $41203.33
- PST @10% $4120.33
- GST @5% $2060.16

Leaving poor Johnny with $35022.84, he gets to keep just over 59% of his gross income.. and again that's before any other taxes or public services he has to pay for.

Now to really put this in perspective,

Let's say Johnny doesn't want to work, cause he's a lazy drunk. So Johnny bucks the EI system as many people do... Let's base this on Johnny working 19 weeks of the year.

Based on the yearly income above, he makes about 1138$/week, so 19 weeks (760 hours) = $21623.46.

He would qualify for the maximum rate of 485$/week, for 22 weeks.

Johnny's revised gross income is as follows:
Income earned: $21623.46
EI Income: $10670

Deductions are as follows:
- CPP $897.11 (EI income exempt)
- EI Premiums $384.90 (EI income exempt)
- Fedeal/Provincial Income Tax $5625.13

Leaving Johnny with 25386.32
- PST @10% $2538.63
- GST @5% $1269.31

Leaving poor Johnny with 21578.38$, he gets to keep almost 67% of his taxable income this time, though 33% of that income was courtesy of the EI program... which also happens to be almost exactly what he paid in taxes.

So Johnny has two options:

Option 1:
Work 2080 hours
Take home $35022.84 of "true income" (Based on the PST/GST being an absolute tax)

Option 2:
Work 760 hours
Take home $21578.38 of "true income"

So now for the best part

Johnny could work 36.53% of a standard calendar year and take home 61.61% of the pay.

Another way to look at this would be to say his net hourly wage working the whole year is $16.84/hr, and bucking the system it would be $28.39/hr... jeez only a 68% increase.

Yeah, socialism is great.

Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, if there is small errors here and there I don't care, feel free to point them out though if it makes you feel better.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:48 AM   #53
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My argument isn't that she will be paying more in her lifetime in tax. It's that our system helps those in need. When she is a student, she isn't paying tax. She has the potential to be in the top bracket for tax, but she needs help by having her education subsidized. Without that subsidy, she can't afford to go to medical school, and many people are in the same boat.

It's not even just about 10k a year. It's about being in school for 8 years, paying tuition, and not having the time to work much.

You bring up your friends who went to medical school. What if UBC was a private university, and medical school tuition was 35k a year? What if their undergrad cost 20k a year. Tuition alone would cost them 220k, not including living expenses. Without our semi-socialist system, they probably would not be able to afford to go to medical school without having their tuition subsidized by taxpayers. Yes, they will end up paying more taxes, but without this system, they will just be a middle class citizen like most people. You can't have one without the other.
I disagree and I think you're opinions are out to lunch. The "subsidy" you speak of is easily repaid through tax dollars within years of working as they would be in the highest tax bracket (I believe it is must higher than the 43% people are posting so please ask an accountant). In fact, it is probably more beneficial that society provides this "benefit" so that we have enough medical doctors to service the rest of the population.

As for tuition, 220k may SEEM expensive, but in the big scheme of things it isn't. Have you ever heard of a student needing to come up with the full amount year after year? There is always scholarships and loans that can be secured. What a big assumption to think that if they did not get the help of our semi-socialist system, they would basically remain as regular "middle class" people because they couldn't afford tuition, yet people in the States seem to have no problem attending med school.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:17 AM   #54
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F U losers who think STEALING, err "taxing" the most productive people in society and giving it to the least productive is "fair." Sure, its fair if you're a welfare queen, on social security, or get some other kind of hand out from the government. Oh and of course, the vampires, aka "public sector workers" will conveniently help themselves to a huge chunk of said taxes, and so do the politicians and their buddies.

Bozos who argue for higher taxation are worse than slaves. These useful idiots (Mindbomber et al.) empower our overlords to milk us like the cattle that we are. We are taxed on our work, we are taxed on our food, we are taxed on our shelter-essentially we spend half our lives slaving away for the government and these idiots think thats not enough LOL. You liberal (really Communist) numskulls who believe that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT (through force) TO OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY are despicable.

This Canadian (Western) attitude of entitlement disgusts me to the core. "Give me FREE HEALTHCARE, Give me FREE EDUCATION, Give me FREE WELFARE, Give me FREE DAYCARE, GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME." Yet these numskulls never ask (conveniently), WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? Oh yea, it comes from "the government." What they're really saying is, "Let's confiscate wealth from the most productive (think hardest working, most intelligent) people in society so I can have more FREE STUFF HORAY.. Suckers!"

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money." -Margaret Thatcher
I find it amusing that you site my views as an example in your argument, I have not posted in this thread and I have not discussed my views on taxation rates on this forum (or any other) before. When people make assumptions the result is more often than not inaccurate, and this is no exception.

For the record.
I support the public health care system. I believe access to health care is a fundamental human right.
I support subsidized education. Without subsidies education costs would burden students to the extent that many may choose to not pursue post-secondary.
I do not support free or subsidized child care, or even child/dependent (unless the dependent is so because of illness/disability) tax credits. Before having children a person should take into consideration cost, and be prepared to shoulder that burden alone.
I do not support the dysfunctional welfare system that exists today. Dramatic reforms are necessary, and should be possible without significant difficulty.

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Old 05-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by jasonturbo View Post
For those of you that have never done the math... tax rates by province.
Spoiler!
Taxation structure usually reflect the social values and cultures of the country
We have progressive tax the way it is because we want everyone to be able to afford basic necessities such as food and shelters ($20-30K) (reason why things like milk and groceries have no sales tax)
We want to help the poor and unfortunate even if that means "stealing" some luxury from the richer... unfortunately, you can't always distinguish between "poor and unfortunate" from the lazy bunch


Your example isn't entirely accurate either because to receive EI payment, Johnny has to be actively looking for jobs, and he will have to attend EI classes and sessions. (many people rather work 8 hours than go to class for 8 hours )
EI also has a very low cap, barely enough to pay for basic food and shelter for most people.
The system is not perfect, but it is designed to help the unfortunate and filter out the lazy.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:49 PM   #56
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Your example isn't entirely accurate either because to receive EI payment, Johnny has to be actively looking for jobs, and he will have to attend EI classes and sessions. (many people rather work 8 hours than go to class for 8 hours )
EI also has a very low cap, barely enough to pay for basic food and shelter for most people.
The system is not perfect, but it is designed to help the unfortunate and filter out the lazy.
Actually Johnny does not need to be actively seeking employment when he is laid off, he just has to be able to provide evidence to support that he has been actively seeking employment. Emails showing you submitted resumes, business cards, references, etc... pretty easy to fake that one, especially when you can use friends an family as references... so you apply at places that would never hire you, and even if you get a call a back from one of the perspective employers, you can just turn it down and the government will likely never find out. So what if you spend 10 minutes a day sending out emails to cover your ass, it's still not exactly a PITA.

You do not HAVE TO attend EI classes/sessions, it's only if you are selected which seems to be very rare. I only know of one person that has ever actually been called in to attend one of these courses, and it was a 12 week long drywall course and that was back in the 90's.

I have worked with dozens, if not hundreds of people who systematically abuse the EI system as I described, some of them also work under the table to supplement their income... some are happy and willing to make the 450$/week as they are content in their low-cost lifestyle.

EI cap is low, by Vancouver standards and by the standards of people that actually have any ambition. If you live in small towns or Eastern Canada where housing is 1/10th the cost of Vancouver, it becomes much easier to live off much less. There is people all over Canada that are content with the low 450$ weekly EI payments. Also consider in some parts of Canada (Like PEI) minimum wage is 10$/hour, based on a 40 hour workweek you are only going to gross 400$ per week.. less than max EI payment of 450$ which is NET btw.. another reason why people abuse the system. I know you wouldn't qualify for max benifits @ 10$/hour, but this is a reason why people "buy their stamps".

I also disagree that "most people" would rather work 8 hours than go to school 8 hours, if they are the type of people that abuse EI, they would probably rather sit there and do nothing for 8 hours then have to worry about actually doing some kind of work.

Maybe it's a little different in BC, but for Alberta and the Maritimes, I can assure you that very few people end up in these EI courses.. I only know of one person that has.. and there is probably a combined thousand years of EI abuse amongst only a small portion of the people I work with lol. (Yes they have jobs now, but when this project ends they will be wetting themselves at the idea of a 9 month paid vacation)

The system is easily abused.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:09 PM   #57
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Actually Johnny does not need to be actively seeking employment when he is laid off, he just has to be able to provide evidence to support that he has been actively seeking employment. Emails showing you submitted resumes, business cards, references, etc... pretty easy to fake that one, especially when you can use friends an family as references... so you apply at places that would never hire you, and even if you get a call a back from one of the perspective employers, you can just turn it down and the government will likely never find out. So what if you spend 10 minutes a day sending out emails to cover your ass, it's still not exactly a PITA.

I remember working retail at a mall years ago, and we'd get the same people every few months dropping off a resume, grabbing a business card, and leave. they didn't even try to get the job -- the mall is the perfect place to 'actively seek employment'
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:52 PM   #58
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Asians seem to have a lot of money and don't seem to care when they crash cars.

I say us Canadians tax them more, not like most of them even do their taxes properly or live like a true citizen.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #59
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your avatar is fucking offensive you piece of shit
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #60
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These doctors are dumb. Are they asking for extra tax on income over some arbitrary number: $XXX,xxx.

How about the government pays them less. Imagine healthcare costs dropping.

Imagine companies phoning up their lawyers' office and saying, 'Sorry, we're not interested in paying you that much. We're starting our own little law department, paying $20 an hour.

Doctors and trial lawyers get paid a lot of money because they have you with your pants down, sometimes literally. If you don't pay, you're boned, you'll go to prison, you'll die, you'll suffer a gruesome death.

There are so many trying to get into these professions. Why do we treat them at such a premium? Build a bigger classroom!

Imagine companies ditching their CEOs, and hiring the guys that say 'I'll do that for half what he's paid.'

Crazy concepts here. I must have no idea how the economic engine is making my life better.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:21 AM   #61
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your avatar is fucking offensive you piece of shit
Google what it means.
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