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Threatened with getting fired for doing the right thing?
Okay, I've posted this in a couple of other threads, but I was nearly fired today because my acting service manager wanted me to use conventional oil in a Nissan 370Z, when I strongly recommended synthetic. The customer AGREED to use synthetic after I asked the service advisor if they wanted to do so. I called a local Nissan dealer, and even they said use synthetic (we are a Toyota dealership).
When the acting manager found out that I did that, he yelled at me that either I do things his way or leave, that I know nothing because he "has 20 years experience in the industry" (I am a apprentice tech, but this was a common sense case to me, and according to other techs he supposedly has no actual technical experience), claimed that ALL oil is the same, said that I don't know anything about cars, and then threatened to send me home, and then escalated it to threatening to fire me. To defuse the situation, I just told him it won't happen again, said he was right, got the proper oil anyways, and carried on. I was ready to tell him that it's common sense to use synthetic oil in a sports car (considering that the FR-S does as well), but I didn't want to risk making the situation worse.
Now, I understand that I'm supposed to respect the manager's decisions especially as an apprentice, but if the vehicle comes back with an engine problem directly related to the wrong oil used, I would probably end up fired because my number would show up on the service history. When this individual takes over as acting manager while the real manager goes on vacation (he's a senior service advisor), he is supposedly known to power trip when in that position.
I need to know, did he have grounds to fire me over questioning a single decision and doing the right thing, and would it have been my ass down the line had I listened to him?
I'm planning to talk to my service manager about the issue, but if he finds out I did that, he'll attempt to make my working career hell for throwing him under the bus. He was known to do that to technicians by giving them low-paying jobs as he completely controls work flow.
Talk to someone higher up, put him in the hot seat for not knowing the industry that he works in.
If the problem persists, find work elsewhere. You really want to work for a company that doesn't value its employees, especially ones who use their head to think?
The world is open to strong-minded individuals who aren't afraid to make decisions, let the sheep work the sheep jobs.
Have Nissan fax you the recommended docs and prove to him. I learned that the only way to prove something to a higher up is if you have it in writing from the source.
is it me or did i spell proove incorrectly? Is it one "O" or two "O's" firefox keeps underlining it :|
__________________
Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.
Make the effort and take the risk..
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
__________________
"Can you match my resolve? If so then you will succeed. I believe that the human spirit is indomitable. If you endeavour to achieve, it will happen given enough resolve." -- Monty Oum
I'm sure the manager is quite aware the 370z is spec'd for a full-syn or a syn blend, but had over riding reasons to want it changed with dino and doesn't feel the need to explain them to an apprentice. My guess would be the profit margin on dino oil is higher and therefore using it in a car built by another manufacturer is preferable. It's not really a big deal, running dino in most cars spec'd for syn isn't going to result in catastrophic failure. It's just like how someone mentioned Dueck GM uses 87 octane in every car on its lot, even if it's spec'd for 91 octane.
Speaking as someone who managed a group of trades apprentices your age for years;
in this scenario, I would have had the identical reaction;
if you brought it up again, I'd probably fire you (ie. spec sheet from Nissan);
if you brought it up to my boss, he'd say your responsibility is to listen to me and you'd be on thin ice with him too.
Enthusiasm, wanting to learn, a willingness to take on added responsibility; those are good qualities to demonstrate when you're at the bottom of the ladder. Asking a question is a good way to demonstrate those qualities. Contradicting your boss and allowing a customer to witness that to some degree (which sounds like what happened), is the worst thing you could possibly do short of theft.
Last edited by MindBomber; 08-09-2012 at 12:52 AM.
Good on ya for using the proper oil and trusting your instincts.
There is 2 ways to look at this.
you could let it go and either you or another tech will eventually be in the same situation later on.
or you can speak to the actual service manager about how you felt bullied and belittled and for advice
the fact is, the mechanic is in charge of making a vehicle safe, cutting corners can potentially be harmful.
now, im not saying that this situation is potentially fatal for the car. but what if this "acting manager" has had a history of making wrong decisions but goes on his "power trip" , as you say, and other techs thought the same way as to just let it go. if thats the case then who knows how many cars this guy has screwed over in his "20 years of experience".
Mindbomber, if he had a legitimate reason for his decision, wouldn't it be proper to actually educate the apprentice? and on top of that, he asked the service adviser first, then the customer agreed to use sythetic. the acting service manager was not the one helping the customer. OP was just doing his job and taking care of the customer.
on top of that, conventional oil should be changed every 5,000km, synthetic every 10,000km. so that means if conventional oil was used in the 370z (depending on how the owner drives) and 10,000km later gets an oil change(they have a sign that comes up saying an oil change is due), wouldn't the oil be dirty and burnt? couldn't that be potentially harmful to the engine? or lets say he is constantly going to this dealership and they were using regular oil all this time but the "oil change due" sign comes up every 10,00km. its always best to use what is recommended just to avoid any potential situations.
Last edited by bigzz786786; 08-09-2012 at 01:14 AM.
Okay, I've posted this in a couple of other threads, but I was nearly fired today because my acting service manager wanted me to use conventional oil in a Nissan 370Z, when I strongly recommended synthetic. The customer AGREED to use synthetic after I asked the service advisor if they wanted to do so. I called a local Nissan dealer, and even they said use synthetic (we are a Toyota dealership).
When the acting manager found out that I did that, he yelled at me that either I do things his way or leave, that I know nothing because he "has 20 years experience in the industry" (I am a apprentice tech, but this was a common sense case to me, and according to other techs he supposedly has no actual technical experience), claimed that ALL oil is the same, said that I don't know anything about cars, and then threatened to send me home, and then escalated it to threatening to fire me. To defuse the situation, I just told him it won't happen again, said he was right, got the proper oil anyways, and carried on. I was ready to tell him that it's common sense to use synthetic oil in a sports car (considering that the FR-S does as well), but I didn't want to risk making the situation worse.
Now, I understand that I'm supposed to respect the manager's decisions especially as an apprentice, but if the vehicle comes back with an engine problem directly related to the wrong oil used, I would probably end up fired because my number would show up on the service history. When this individual takes over as acting manager while the real manager goes on vacation (he's a senior service advisor), he is supposedly known to power trip when in that position.
I need to know, did he have grounds to fire me over questioning a single decision and doing the right thing, and would it have been my ass down the line had I listened to him?
I drive Nissan 350Z and I know that synthetic oil is recommended for my Z which I use but it's not necessary, and when I take my Z to nissan, they use normal oil unless customer requests synthetic. I highly doubt that using normal engine oil instead of synthetic one would actually cause engine problem. I am also a manager in a large corporation and in no way would I ever threaten my employee the way you've described it. If you were rude and disobey direct order from your manager, that's insubordination and can be a reason for involuntary termination in an extreme case but from how you've described it, it doesn't sound like the case.
If you are unhappy with how you've been treated, if you can, get statements from employees who've witnessed the situation and bring it to human resources. If you don't have HR in your company, bring the matter to the actual manager when he's back from vacation. If you don't feel comfortable about making a big deal out of this, then talk to the real manager and ask for advice and let him know that you just want advice and not proceed this matter formally. If your manager tells you that you should use conventional oil, do as you've been told because they can't fire you for doing something you've been asked to do by your superior without getting legal trouble, but they can legally fire you for insubordination if you willfully disobeys or disregards superior's legitimate directive. (you can't argue that synthetic oil is a MUST for 370Z, and if you don't believe me, read the manual)
^synthetic oil isn't a must, but you have the option of switching to synthetic(if the car isn't already using it). you've paid for switching to synthetic, shouldn't you get your money's worth?
i had a g35 coupe and when i first bought it, it was conventional oil, after a couple services they asked me if i wanted to switch to synthetic, i said yes, paid the money to switch it, and from then on they put synthetic, i never had to ask to use synthetic every service.
im sorry but if my car is using synthetic and the dealership uses conventional oil because i didn't request synthetic then that is just a shitty dealership, simple as that.
Mindbomber, if he had a legitimate reason for his decision, wouldn't it be proper to actually educate the apprentice? and on top of that, he asked the service adviser first, then the customer agreed to use sythetic. the acting service manager was not the one helping the customer. OP was just doing his job and taking care of the customer.
on top of that, conventional oil should be changed every 5,000km, synthetic every 10,000km. so that means if conventional oil was used in the 370z (depending on how the owner drives) and 10,000km later gets an oil change(they have a sign that comes up saying an oil change is due), wouldn't the oil be dirty and burnt? couldn't that be potentially harmful to the engine? or lets say he is constantly going to this dealership and they were using regular oil all this time but the "oil change due" sign comes up every 10,00km. its always best to use what is recommended just to avoid any potential situations.
There are moments where as a person in an authority position you have the opportunity to educate your less experienced employees, of course, that's how they learn. There are also moments where as much as you might like to teach your less experienced employees, the circumstances simply are not conducive to it. It's up to you, as the person in the authority position, to identify those moments and capitalize on them, and pass on them when it's not possible. A less experienced employee asking how you do something, or why you do something is always cool, it's a sign of initiative. It's not okay to question a bosses decisions in the presence of a customer or do so in a subordinate manner period, because it can jeopardize the customers confidence in the person in authority and/or is simply disrespectful to the chain of command.
To me, it sounds as if the service advisor/manager had already come to an agreement with the customer to use dino, and CorneringArtist went back to the customer and asked if they would prefer synthetic because he believed it was required for the vehicles engine. Of course, I could be wrong. Please confirm CorneringArtist.
As far as the second part of your post, I'm sure the customer would be made aware that dino oil was used and the appropriate change interval (not doing so would be a huge error on the part of the dealership/shop!)
I'm not trying to come off as a complete asshole in my post, despite the fact that I kind of do. That's just my realistic opinion on the scenario as a person who has been on both ends of similar situations, and I never have been/will be an asshole boss like this guy might be.
To me, it sounds as if the service advisor/manager had already come to an agreement with the customer to use dino, and CorneringArtist went back to the customer and asked if they would prefer synthetic because he believed it was required for the vehicles engine. Of course, I could be wrong. Please confirm CorneringArtist.
Ff
As soon as I saw the vehicle was a 370Z, I instantly began to recommend to the advisor to use synthetic. There was no prior agreement to the use of synthetic or dino, so I'll assume the latter was likely to be used. The owner's manual has no strong indication for synthetic per se, but there is a VQ37-specific oil recommend by Nissan, and I even went as far as asking our parts department to call a Nissan dealership in order to confirm the use use of synthetic, and they mentioned a strong majority of their customers do so. All interactions occurred in the back away from the customer (but keep in mind that the customer agreed to use the synthetic when I had requested we use it), and he only made the decision AFTER intervening when he returned from lunch..
I completely understand that insubordination is 100% wrong, but there's no way I was going to risk my job had something actually happened as a consequence of using dino oil. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my superiors, but it's that one person that everyone seems to universally dislike, especially when he is given a taste of authority. This individual claimed "he had it up to here" with me,despite no prior action of me making any recent mistakes. Thanks to him, I feel like I'm not learning anything on the job because of his workflow control; all I get is oil changes and accessory installations, while I'm competent enough to do brake jobs and fluid replacements despite asking to do them. Again, he's treating me like an idiot, and I'm unable to show my potential off to my actual manager because of that. I've been here over a year and the biggest job I've done is a factory DVD player install, but that doesn't help me where it matters most: under the hood.
I have done research pertaining to oil use in a 370Z, and it seems that dino oil begins to break down at the average 370Z oil temperature of 250 degrees Fahrenheit, while synthetic begins to break down closer to 400. There was a potential for oil consumption down the line, and conventional has contributed to noisy valvetrains in these vehicles. In addition, using dino literally halves the oil change interval due to that breakdown (4000km vs, 8000km OCI).
Now I feel like I have a target painted on my back for trying to do the right thing. I feel like quitting, but I probably won't have another place to go to. And by no means am I a workplace asshole or shitstarter, I'm just (struggling) trying to learn new things every day with the utmost respect, and this was my first ever professional challenge of authority period,if you can even call it that. I have the drive to learn as MindBomber said of a good apprentice, but my potential is being stifled at this position.
__________________
Borokusowagen.
Last edited by CorneringArtist; 08-09-2012 at 10:01 AM.
He doesn't have grounds to fire you. The most that "disobeying" his order to use conventional oil vs synthetic oii should be a warning. This doesn't sound like a case of insubordination or anything, especially if its a first time thing. If you could speak to a higher up to defend your case, this acting manager has no grounds to write you up or to fire you. If need be, call BC Employment Standards. I'm sure if you got in trouble with this acting manager, you can defend your case, especially if you know what you're doing in the job.
Good luck
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Cancer or whom maybe suffering from it.
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I should mention that regardless of what I know in the job, this person is ALWAYS right regardless, according to him. However, I've been told all his experience is via selling, and that he supposedly doesn't have a technician's ticket.
Let's just say I heard through the grapevine at work that he sent a (three-page) e-mail to my manager about what I had done. Safe to say he's pining to get my ass fired, and it all hinges on what happens when my actual manager returns on Monday. Even if I don't get let go, my time in the workplace may be made a living hell by him via work overload or possible harassment. I've been told by other technicians that once your're on that individual's hate list, he'll do anything to make you look bad, or to make working under him as uncomfortable as possible.
I'll be laying low and playing it by ear for now, but I'm already seeking other places of employment
Three page letter?! What does it have a table of contents and an appendix too?
Hopefully your manager will be able to see how silly all of this is and the acting manager is just making himself look bad now even if he doesn't realize it.
When he demanded regular oil, you should have just said OK, but put synthetic anyways. I don't know how procedures are in your workplace, maybe the acting manager hands you the oil?
Whatever he suggested, if it's not according to the owner's manual, it's probably wrong. Maybe he's just mad that some nissan guy took his car to a toyota dealership and wants to do a payback for personal reason, or just wants to defend his uneducated decision.
Either way, i believe that if he escalate the situation further and if you're smart enough you can put him out of his position depending on the stuff you say. Although he has authority, don't forget that if you have the facts that he has no technical experiences, he has more to lose than you in position wise.
Furthermore, if anything does happen to you, as long as you know you did the right thing, there are better places to work at than some dealership that have to suck up to their manager's ass. Why work in an environment where right and wrong decisions are more important than right and wrong actions.
It's people like him that makes services go down the drain. The mentality that he puts on the staff can sprout into problems for customers. If it was another person other than you, that person can just be like "fuck it, i'm not even going to care about the customer's car. if anything, the company pays for the damages."
At the same time, these are the situation that is best used to get a promotion if you know how to play the game. Step on his shoulder to move up. Make a speech to your service manager that in this dealership, we need to do the right thing for our customer, and customer satisfaction is priority, blah blah blah. Make yourself stand out.
But according to BC labor board, threaten to fire is workplace harassment and you can take the problem further if you wish.
just guessing here, but maybe he was pissed because you were slowing down shop flow over nothing?
unless Nissan explicitly states 370's require synthetic oil then the car doesn't require it, and in real world situations isn't benefiting from it
time is money, if he is the dispatcher (like myself) then he is under tremendous pressure to keep productivity maxed, 10 extra minutes to get this sorted may not seem like a big deal, but a 10 minute hiccup in a shop run at the limit can mean one or 2 other customers arent getting there cars on time
the other aspect is how the advisor sold the synth oil to the customer, we charge 30 bucks extra on synth oil changes, if you just did it without the customer consenting to the extra charge, thats a problem in itself
PS, everyone hates dispatchers, its our job to make sure all the work gets done on time first
and second is to try to make sure all you monkeys are equally upset with us at all times
my apprentice gets all the oil changes and accessories too, its called paying your dues
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Originally Posted by RRxtar
Ugliness and fatness are genetic disorders, much like baldness or necrophilia, and it's only your fault if you don't hate yourself enough to do something about it.
When he demanded regular oil, you should have just said OK, but put synthetic anyways. I don't know how procedures are in your workplace, maybe the acting manager hands you the oil?
If I caught someone doing that, I would fire them for theft on the spot. The difference in product cost required for a synthetic and dino change is a direct loss against the companies bottom line. That is NOT okay, under ANY circumstances. It would be better just to refuse to do the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneringArtist
Spoiler!
Ff
As soon as I saw the vehicle was a 370Z, I instantly began to recommend to the advisor to use synthetic. There was no prior agreement to the use of synthetic or dino, so I'll assume the latter was likely to be used. The owner's manual has no strong indication for synthetic per se, but there is a VQ37-specific oil recommend by Nissan, and I even went as far as asking our parts department to call a Nissan dealership in order to confirm the use use of synthetic, and they mentioned a strong majority of their customers do so. All interactions occurred in the back away from the customer (but keep in mind that the customer agreed to use the synthetic when I had requested we use it), and he only made the decision AFTER intervening when he returned from lunch..
I completely understand that insubordination is 100% wrong, but there's no way I was going to risk my job had something actually happened as a consequence of using dino oil. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my superiors, but it's that one person that everyone seems to universally dislike, especially when he is given a taste of authority. This individual claimed "he had it up to here" with me,despite no prior action of me making any recent mistakes. Thanks to him, I feel like I'm not learning anything on the job because of his workflow control; all I get is oil changes and accessory installations, while I'm competent enough to do brake jobs and fluid replacements despite asking to do them. Again, he's treating me like an idiot, and I'm unable to show my potential off to my actual manager because of that. I've been here over a year and the biggest job I've done is a factory DVD player install, but that doesn't help me where it matters most: under the hood.
I have done research pertaining to oil use in a 370Z, and it seems that dino oil begins to break down at the average 370Z oil temperature of 250 degrees Fahrenheit, while synthetic begins to break down closer to 400. There was a potential for oil consumption down the line, and conventional has contributed to noisy valvetrains in these vehicles. In addition, using dino literally halves the oil change interval due to that breakdown (4000km vs, 8000km OCI).
Now I feel like I have a target painted on my back for trying to do the right thing. I feel like quitting, but I probably won't have another place to go to. And by no means am I a workplace asshole or shitstarter, I'm just (struggling) trying to learn new things every day with the utmost respect, and this was my first ever professional challenge of authority period,if you can even call it that. I have the drive to learn as MindBomber said of a good apprentice, but my potential is being stifled at this position.
.....................................
I should mention that regardless of what I know in the job, this person is ALWAYS right regardless, according to him. However, I've been told all his experience is via selling, and that he supposedly doesn't have a technician's ticket.
Let's just say I heard through the grapevine at work that he sent a (three-page) e-mail to my manager about what I had done. Safe to say he's pining to get my ass fired, and it all hinges on what happens when my actual manager returns on Monday. Even if I don't get let go, my time in the workplace may be made a living hell by him via work overload or possible harassment. I've been told by other technicians that once your're on that individual's hate list, he'll do anything to make you look bad, or to make working under him as uncomfortable as possible.
I'll be laying low and playing it by ear for now, but I'm already seeking other places of employment
I see, I can understand how the Service Manager might have been a bit upset given the way things played out. In a similar situation, I would have taken my employee aside towards the end of the day to have a brief chat about procedure, but would also have given them credit for their diligence at ensuring the job be done right. The Service Manager's actual reaction is excessive, a three page letter, surely he could more productively utilize his time.
You're already seeking other places of employment, and regardless of whether disciplinary action takes place, I would suggest following through with that. I cannot understate how difficult it was for me to find good young employees with a desire to work, take on new skills, and in time move up in rank. If you feel your current employer is not giving you the opportunity to maximize your potential, there will always be another employer eager to help you achieve your goals because it will benefit them as well.
just guessing here, but maybe he was pissed because you were slowing down shop flow over nothing?
unless Nissan explicitly states 370's require synthetic oil then the car doesn't require it, and in real world situations isn't benefiting from it
time is money, if he is the dispatcher (like myself) then he is under tremendous pressure to keep productivity maxed, 10 extra minutes to get this sorted may not seem like a big deal, but a 10 minute hiccup in a shop run at the limit can mean one or 2 other customers arent getting there cars on time
the other aspect is how the advisor sold the synth oil to the customer, we charge 30 bucks extra on synth oil changes, if you just did it without the customer consenting to the extra charge, thats a problem in itself
PS, everyone hates dispatchers, its our job to make sure all the work gets done on time first
and second is to try to make sure all you monkeys are equally upset with us at all times
my apprentice gets all the oil changes and accessories too, its called paying your dues
Thanks for all the advice so far everyone.
To answer this,however, the customer did consent to paying extra for the synthetic when asked. I should also point out the week prior to this one, we didn't have a dispatcher as he was on vacation (note this was the individual threatening to fire me), the advisors distributing work themselves, everything was calm, and it was actually a bit pleasant doing work since everyone was happy.
The 370 was in for an oil change during lunch time, which is generally a dead zone at my shop, and I take lunch last among the apprentices to cover anyone who comes in at noon for oil changes and/or quickly clean up the shop.
I've been working in the shop as a tech for almost a year now, and while the other apprentices are getting the odd brake work and fluid changes to do, not doing those is screwing me because I'm not learning anything new. I'd rather do one brake job ten thousand times, than ten thousand different oil changes. Dispatcher claimed I'll do other things "in due time", but it's been a year and the most I've done is two alignments and some basic diagnosis. Isn't that time enough? I go back for second year training in February, and I fear that I'll be left behind if this continues.
Seems that Brian Jessel BMW is looking for a wash attendant/possible apprentice. Is it worth biding my time to start at ground zero again?
__________________
Borokusowagen.
Last edited by CorneringArtist; 08-09-2012 at 09:45 PM.
To answer this,however, the customer did consent to paying extra for the synthetic when asked. I should also point out the week prior to this one, we didn't have a dispatcher as he was on vacation (note this was the individual threatening to fire me), the advisors distributing work themselves, everything was calm, and it was actually a bit pleasant doing work since everyone was happy.
The 370 was in for an oil change during lunch time, which is generally a dead zone at my shop, and I take lunch last among the apprentices to cover anyone who comes in at noon for oil changes and/or quickly clean up the shop.
I've been working in the shop as a tech for almost a year now, and while the other apprentices are getting the odd brake work and fluid changes to do, not doing those is screwing me because I'm not learning anything new. I'd rather do one brake job ten thousand times, than ten thousand different oil changes. Dispatcher claimed I'll do other things "in due time", but it's been a year and the most I've done is two alignments. Isn't that time enough? I go back for second year training in February, and I fear that I'll be left behind if this continues.
Seems that Brian Jessel BMW is looking for a wash attendant/possible apprentice. Is it worth biding my time to start at ground zero again?
Hmm... i'll take back my advice on getting promotions. I was in a similar situation as you. I work for a company for 3 years as a warehouseman. First year the manager said the company will train for forklift certificate. Several training session went by but I wasn't invited. Second year my supervisor said that he will nominate me to first aid training. One session went by and I wasn't invited.
3rd year, I resigned knowing that I cannot be stuck at a company that can't deliver their promises.
I believe that I have potential to find a better place out there and what these companies do is they speak good about their company and how bad you are and lucky you are to be working here. I hope your dealership isn't filled with people like this.
After 3 years, it's pretty depressing to just leave after contributing so much time and effort to it, but behind it there has to be a reason why I was never invited to those training. Can you guess why?
Anyways, if you're still young and haven't made a serious commitment that this company is where you want to work, I say go find somewhere better. That is, if you're feeling uncomfortable about your current one.
I really think you should just have a talk with the acting service manager before the weekend to make things right. You're going to run into situations like these in the future and it's how you resolve it that defines your character. Keeping a good relations with your managers is the key to your success. Even if you have a dispute with them, take the initiative to go try to talk it out in an apologetic manner. You should not ignore the issue unless you plan to be in his bad books for a while.
It's your loss if you just quit the job because of something so minor. Just go apologize to him and clear up any misunderstanding, and go enjoy your weekend worry free.
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