More importantly, if you shot for the leg and missed, there's a good chance of the bullet hitting an innocent bystander. If you were a cop, just think of how vilified you'd be then! Shooting at an armed suspect to protect other people, and wounding or killing another person instead... because you were aiming a relatively small, rapidly-moving target.

But hey, at least CiC wouldn't be on your case about it... OR WOULD HE???

Depends on if you're Jewish or not.

Do you know how hard it is to aim at something that's about 5" wide and moving?

You see disabling by shooting in the legs in the movies.

In real life, most cops are trained to aim on the upper body because it is the largest section.

If I was the cop following the moving man at walking pace, I would shoot him from 10 feet away to get a clean shot. I wouldnt accept your bet Soundy because of the miniscule chance of the gun exploding in my hand.

You do realize I haven't once called you a name or insulted you, right? A debate is a debate until people start slinging insults.

And a lack of information is not a cover up. You can guarantee that the media would have done their hardest to determine if the guy was determined to be a risk.

Local news stories.

Man charged in Vancouver hostage-taking - British Columbia - CBC News

Kamloops hostage-taker killed in fiery explosion - British Columbia - CBC News

Dramatic hostage rescue | The Vancouver Observer

CANOE -- SLAM! Sports - Wrestling - The untold story of "Cowboy" Dan Kroffat's hostage taking and shooting

There have been a lot of high profile incidents in NY with too many people getting injured over the more powerful tasers they use down there. Many officers have refused to use 'em or even carry them due to the amount of lawsuits currently against officers. The ones they use over there can actually kill someone a lot more effectively than other nonlethal methods.

So you're saying that you'll still shoot the guy even as he's backing away? What if you missed and the bullet ricocheted into an innocent bystander? What if that miss also causes the suspect to start running at you or your partner? A human can cover 10 feet in a mere second, especially if they have adrenaline pumping through their system.

edit - I'd try to shoot him in the leg no matter the consequences if I knew my psycho cop buddy is itching to smoke someone and was setting up an ambush

They should definitely keep one for these situations, if the system was just they'd get charged.

i am fairly proficient with firearms and would have difficulty taking down a moving target coming at me with my handgun. my knee is about 4-5" wide and at a distance with a pistol i would have difficulty trying to take out the target. the suspect could realize what i was attempting to do and swerve/move around to avoid getting shot at the knees (rather than straight lining it to me).

it would be more feasible to aim for the upper thigh area where it is a much wider target. even though my upper thighs are much larger than my knees i would still have difficulty trying to take out the target. i would also be worried about missing and having ricochets that could take out innocent civilians.

the best target would be the upper torso, i.e. center mass. law enforcement personnel are trained to fire for center mass because it is the largest target on the body. you are most likely to take down a target with minimal risk to innocent bystanders. center mass is also where all the vital organs in the human body are, therefore the logic would be to aim for that area. (side note: aiming for the upper thigh could also kill the target due to a rupture in the femoral artery/vein causing the target to bleed out) there are many instances where one shot does not stop a target and follow up shots are required. even at center mass

please understand, my opinion is that the NYPD officers were justified in their actions. there will always be those who disagree though. i dont think that police go around power tripping, wanting to kill people and exploit "justifiable homicide". from my experience and with my discussion with law enforcement personnel, the decision to draw their sidearm is a last resort not a first. the officers feel that either their own lives or the lives of those around them are in immediate danger and that is most likely the case here. the officers exercised non-lethal means first, they also drew their firearms and gave the target many chances to surrender. the man decided to ignore those warnings for whatever reasons and charged with the knife. it is sad that the man did not survive but it would have been worse if innocent people were harmed.

CiC, how about you stop playing armchair marksman and realize that in the heat of the moment, non-movie, non police-sniper, non professional skeet shooter (and even THEY have more powerful firearms) humans don't have Counter-Strike aimbot reflexes to hit a rapidly moving target the size of a 2x4. Most of us on RS don't even have our restricted firearm carrying licenses, let alone fired a gun (myself included). You're thinking you're freaking RoboCop with all these relatively unreasonable feats you claim you want to do in this situation.

:moderatorban::moderatorban::moderatorban:

Fixed.

can i take you up on that bet? i could use $100 bucks :)

so about a 6 inch wide target at 20 feet? :fullofwin:

Also, I should point out that Godwin's Law has been inevitably called in this thread. Why am I not surprised?

This is the one thing CiC will never grasp (or will conveniently ignore in perpetuity): the cop's ONE AND ONLY JOB is to PROTECT THE PUBLIC. After everything else is said and done, and all the semantics are put aside, that's what the job description comes down to.

I don't care how good a shot you are, if there is even a slight chance of missing a target in a crowded public situation like that, then aiming at that target IS ENDANGERING THE PUBLIC. You miss... someone else could get hurt or killed.

And so as you say: you aim for the biggest part of the target possible. If it's a choice between killing the suspect, or just disabling him with the very strong risk of even winging an innocent bystander... then you go for the kill. Otherwise, you're not doing your job.

Hmmmm, ummm... how about no?

Shoulda kept your mouth shut ;)

With all this bystander talk, lets not forget 12 shots were fired into the guy killing him. Lot of alternative scenarios could have taken place, shooting him should have been the last.

:okay::concentrate::fullofwin:

alternative scenarios did take place and shooting him WAS the last possible scenario.

in the heat of the moment it is difficult to gauge whether or not the first shot has taken down the suspect.

i did not count the shots but do recall seeing 3-4 officers aiming their weapons at the target. if thats the case it is reasonable to suggest that each officer fired approximately 3-4 shots depending on the number of officers that were shooting.


when you're making the choice to shoot, you shoot till the target is down. taking down a large man with a 9mm round would probably take a minimum of 2 shots with the exception of a round hitting a vital organ (lung/heart).


again, it is sad the way things turned out but i'm not sure their really was any other way out of this without the possibility of innocent bystanders getting hurt

well, you're not a cop for a reason, nor should you ever be.

This isn't the movies, or call of duty. As already discussed, a handgun won't put down a threat with one shot. Unless it is to the head, the suspect will keep on going for a while, until he bleeds out, or major organs fail. You my friend, need to stop posting and debating with reference to your sheltered experience of video games, and movies.

9mm will most likely take multiple shots without hitting a vital organ.

.45ACP on the other hand is another story :fullofwin:

whats happening in America?..
oh,Just another black person shot.....seems i hear this happens all the time,if it isn't happening to themselves in the hood,it's Police or a public bystander worried about a black person Wearing a hoody Looking suspicious.

You FUCKING IDIOT. Don't you fucking dare compare this to travyon martins event to this you disrespectful moron. Fuck you.

I'm starting to get sick of the smug anti-Americanism on Revscene. With this, the Stampede, and the Bellingham thread its like people think Canada is this sparkling ivory tower.

America has it's faults, just like Canada, and its not fair to say that their 'culture is broken' just because a few bad things make the news from time to time.

Canada isn't better than America, and America isn't better than Canada. The only thing we can truly agree on is that Denmark sucks.

Hey It's not my fault White people in usa are scared of any black person that walks alone at night or In groups during the day time.

Again,i don't know why i got fails when i turn on Morning America news & i hear about new drive-by shootings for whatever issues that are happening in Poor ghetto area's of California or L.A

Or when Police shoot a lunatic african laced out on Cocaine & meth,i'm quite glad the NYPD reacted the way they did...you try take an officers life you Deserve to be killed,that's the thanks you give law enforcement?...Pulling a knife on them?...

He was a piece of shit criminal with no job,no family to look after while the cop MOST likely has everything a rightful baring person has in everyday life contributing to society Risking his life as a job.





i didn't say what country is better...I'm just glad there's less Evil scumbags & psycho's in Canada then it is There in USA Doing Shootings in Public school's Or Movie theaters while Innocent people are just trying to do Family time & Educate themselves in high school or college....Hell I'm glad its not bad enough here for metal detectors to be used in schools around these parts.