Very insightful article on China

[SkinnyPupp]

You’ll never be Chinese

Just going to leave that there

[StylinRed]

So this guy has spent most of his life studying and living in China and wanting to be Chinese and he never knew what China was and now he's mad that China isn't the UK.... (i dont even think the UK could live up to his desires/wants of what a country should be)

[SkinnyPupp]

wow reading comprehension FTL

It's mind blowing that you read all that information, and that is what you came away with...

[StylinRed]

i jumped to the last couple paragraphs

you forget this is revscene you should be surprised i even clicked on the link



skimmed some more... sure seems i hit the nail on the head

[Gnomes]

Is there a coles note version?

[SkinnyPupp]

Read the whole thing, it's the only way it will make sense.

And BTW wanting to "be Chinese" has nothing to do with being racially Chinese. He wanted to be "Chinese" as in live there for the rest of his life. Just like people who move to Canada to "be Canadian". They don't want to "be white" they want to be part of the country. The key distinction is, you can do that in Canada and most other countries, but not China. And that is not necessarily a complaint about China, but rather a statement of fact. He tried, and shared his thoughts on the subject. It's one of those things that makes China different, and fascinating, and for many people, frustrating.

What I found most interesting were the parts of the potential real estate bubble, and their education system.

[StylinRed]

^^^ he went to study china in the 80s

saw a lot of hope and community

started a lucrative business and had it seized

find he isn't able to assimilate not because of himself but china

watched China turn into an abominable society that just wants money and doesnt care about squat

sees another revolution coming (this is a point that many have been noting for years btw)

is getting out of dodge because china isn't what he had hoped/wished or that is it didn't turn out ideally

[RFlush]

Allan Zeman was Canadian but naturalized as a citizen of the People's Republic of China.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

And BTW wanting to "be Chinese" has nothing to do with being racially Chinese. He wanted to be "Chinese" as in live there for the rest of his life. Just like people who move to Canada to "be Canadian". They don't want to "be white" they want to be part of the country. The key distinction is, you can do that in Canada and most other countries, but not China. And that is not necessarily a complaint about China, but rather a statement of fact. He tried, and shared his thoughts on the subject. It's one of those things that makes China different, and fascinating, and for many people, frustrating.

You can do that in most other countries?? WTF are you talking about? Where else have you lived outside of Canada and HK?

Actually in most countries, you CAN'T do that. You will always be an outsider, or a foreigner.

Just because your definition of 'most countries' is a few Western European countries and North America, doesn't make it right.

That said, the author is an idiot. He has become Chinese, because the government is regularly fucking him over for his slightly unorthodox beliefs and behaviors. Sounds about as Chinese as you can get.

If he wanted to live in a capitalist mecca where he could blend in and collect millions off some publishing business, he should have realized that he needed to go somewhere else - about the same time Expo Line was being unveiled in Vancouver.

[guava]

great article. thanks skinnypuppy. we share the same views on china.

[hotshot1]

Yea great article.

[yray]

I get a sense that he wanted to be the white knight of the social capitalist system by making a shitload of money in China. However, he realizes that he can't beat the powerful state system. After settling in China and having a family, he realizes that the Chinese system is in conflict with the moral system he grew up with and now hes running away from China.

It just annoys me that he's complaining about how the system is bad. Every country has their way of living, a nation doesn't have to suit you because you moved there with different ideas and morals. It's like living at a friends house, you don't walk around inside their house naked because you walk around naked at home. Or you don't take off your shoes on the carpet because you don't do it at home, you always follow the host's rules.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

You can do that in most other countries?? WTF are you talking about? Where else have you lived outside of Canada and HK?

Again, you're thinking ethnically. No matter where you move to, you will always be a 'foreigner'. But you can still be a part of that country. Millions of British people were born all over the world. Many Germans, Australians, Canadians, Americans, etc. It just doesn't work that way in countries such as China. And yes, others as well. That's part of what makes countries different.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by yray

I get a sense that he wanted to be the white knight of the social capitalist system by making a shitload of money in China. However, he realizes that he can't beat the powerful state system. After settling in China and having a family, he realizes that the Chinese system is in conflict with the moral system he grew up with and now hes running away from China.

It just annoys me that he's complaining about how the system is bad. Every country has their way of living, a nation doesn't have to suit you because you moved there with different ideas and morals. It's like living at a friends house, you don't walk around inside their house naked because you walk around naked at home. Or you don't take off your shoes on the carpet because you don't do it at home, you always follow the host's rules.

Again I am amazed that people are only getting the superficial layer of someone leaving a country they moved to from what I thought was an insightful and introspective story. Maybe I am expecting too much, or maybe I just read too much into it... either way if you disagree that's fine, but I am somewhat baffled by the responses.. oh wells let's go look at some memes in the fucked up shit thread

[Hehe]

I think the major problem the author has is he still thinks *to be* a Chinese rather than just *be* a Chinese.

His philosophy follows a much western-oriented pattern to merge into a new environment; adapt.

For Chinese, however, you don't adapt. You mimic, and then at one point of the mimicking, BE.

I am Taiwanese born, Spanish raised and Canadian educated. When I decided to marry my wife, who was from China, I needed to do something to get along with her family. I simply become the Chinese I know of. I have been getting along with her families, her friends and the rest of China just fine when we went there to live for almost 2 years due to some family issue.

Chinese are rather selfish and purpose oriented, but in the same time, very face-caring society. It's a strong contrast to what I have been taught to do all my life, but it's just the way of living there and as long as one can stop thinking about what they have been taught to do, and BE in that Chinese mentality, one is Chinese.

[BaoTurbo]

Chinese is a collective society.

Canadians are a multi-cultural pool of individualistic views and beliefs.

I think that already explains why he can't be Chinese even if he wanted to by trying to merge into a chinese society.

Perfect example was when iPhone 4 came out. I'm pretty damn sure the hype in China or Asia is a lot bigger than Canada. I asked my gf if a lot of people use iPhone 4 in HK; she said about 90% of the population. On the other hand in Canada, we use whatever we want if it's Samsung, iPhone, or even Blackberry. Just my $0.02

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

mmmm...

the way he describes china is exactly why i like china.

it's purposeful. it's a machine.

it's the west, without the lies of a dream.

it's direct.

it's a collective.

to be chinese, is to conform.

to become an ant, and accept it.


china does exactly what it has to do in the period that they choose rise.
right now, materialism, acquiring shit, is a global thing.

one day in the future, when humanity as a whole matures, you'll see china, change, and adapt to fit that scene.

you have to remember, china is realistic.

until you can make what the west stands for (innovation and all that stuff), a tangible good that is proven to make everything better overall. china's not gonna push for that. because it's not realistic. it's just a dream.

i'll never be chinese because i'm raised here. but i'd love to reap the benefits of the system.


there are personal individual things that people don't like about china, like the article states... super materialism. everything has to be new. face saving etc etc etc.
but those are like little things.
if those things upset you, you have to get over your ego.
in the LONG term of things (beyond your own life), this is what they have to do to get on top. stop viewing it from an individual point of view (this will be hard for introverts). remove yourself from the picture. fuck your own feelings, fuck where you stand. you don't exist. you are just a cell, part of a greater organism.

people generally have a major problem, they're unable to look from a global perspective inward (where YOU as an individual don't exist, an egoless perspective).
they look as individuals outward. from their own little perspective. from where they stand.

china doesnt care where you stand. china doesnt care about your feelings. china cares about china.

like a colony of ants. you can't look at each individual ant. you don't look at how each individual is so materlistic, or face caring. because, really, that doesnt matter.

you only look at the movement of the WHOLE colony. you only look at statistics, numbers, and achievements.

if you want to be chinese, you become the colony. fuck your individualism, fuck your feelings, fuck where YOU stand. the colony is moving in a particular direction, and that's the only thing you should measure. that and the way they're doing it is the most practical and it WORKS.

if you don't like it, then you shouldn't live with the ants. the ants do, what other ants do. they follow the flow of the colony. whether they know it or not.

[Mike Oxbig]

China Economic Crisis: Why 44 Percent of Wealthy Chinese Want to Leave the Country

China's strong performance in the London Olympics is just another indicator of its phenomenal rise as a global power, but has the country's rapid growth peaked?

A recent report released by China’s State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) indicates that for the first time since China's economic boom in 1998, there is a deficit in the overall balance of payments. With more money leaving China than entering it, there is a growing concern among officials in the Chinese government, which has become accustomed to an inflow of capital from other countries.

Even more telling is the growing trend of wealthy individuals (each with over $1.6 million) leaving China in the past few years. According to the SAFE report, over 16% of the country's one million wealthy individuals have emigrated, with a projected 44% intending to follow suit. Many of them have already sent their children abroad for higher education, and some have invested heavily in U.S. real estate.

For example, within the last two years, Chinese companies have already initiated projects to develop suburban communities near the economic centers of Toledo and Detroit that cater exclusively to China's nouveau riche. Also, some American developers and agencies are beginning to focus exclusively on Chinese buyers who are snapping up luxury real estate in major cities such as New York, Los Angeles, and Miami. The fall in U.S. real-estate during the housing-crisis has attracted many buyers from around the world, while China's real-estate restrictions and the appreciating yuan continue to drive the Chinese to invest outside their own country.

More importantly, people are confident in a stability that China may not have. Di Meng, a Chinese student attending the University of Southern California, says, "Compared to China, the United States is relatively stable. [...] China has a purchase limit policy because the Chinese government tried to control and cool down the housing market in China, so if you've already bought a home in China, they do not support you to buy another."

Before the United States starts rejoicing at this trend reversal in their economic rival, it should be noted that the drain is not unilateral. Immigrants to the U.S. and Americans with immigrant parents are increasingly returning or moving to pursue new career opportunities in the rapidly developing economies of their ancestral homelands such as China and India. Disheartened and frustrated by the economic recession in the U.S. and Europe, graduates and young professionals are attracted to exciting entrepreneurial opportunities and the economic incentives (e.g. higher salaries, lower taxes) China and India are willing to offer to Western-educated individuals. Thus, talent that could be used to develop the U.S. economy is looking for employment elsewhere, and little is being done to retain them.

Should China be concerned?

It is difficult to predict how these trends will play out, but for now, China's economy continues to grow while the government tries to find a balance between rapid growth and effective regulation. Zhiwei Zhang, a China economist at the Japanese bank Nomura, notes "the capital outflow is not an alarming sign in itself, but just reflects economic worries that are already well-known.”

The end of Olympics 2012 may have marked a temporary hiatus in the athletic rivalry between the U.S. and China, but the economic rivalry between the two powers continues.

[Culture_Vulture]

I read the article, went back and read the title again, and the only thing that went through my head is "to which people would probably say, 'I don't want to be Chinese, anyways'"
but, that's from a personal standpoint.

Chinese strategic behavior is actually the focus of what I'm studying right now, and to be completely honest, you can discriminate against or criticize "China" as a whole all you want, but what the truth boil downs to is as a state, China is a lean, mean, very fucking well-oiled machine. Sure there are some fundamental flaws that morally not everybody (not even Chinese nationals) can agree with--but every state has its problems.

But where its culture stands...maybe this is just me ignoring cultural relativism, China is going to hell in a handbasket. And this, I personally presume, is the reason why people don't actually want to "live" in China.
Do they want to be "Chinese" (in the broadest possible sense of the word)? Hell fucking yes. But living in China is a whole other thing completely. If that doesn't tell you something about the political and social culture of a place, then I don't know what does.

[Culture_Vulture]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

if you want to be chinese, you become the colony. fuck your individualism, fuck your feelings, fuck where YOU stand. the colony is moving in a particular direction, and that's the only thing you should measure. that and the way they're doing it is the most practical and it WORKS.

Individualism has its strengths (See: liberty, freedom of speech, etc.--there is a point to be made here.) and they shouldn't be overlooked for growth and development.

Also, a person with no Chinese heritage will never become Chinese, at least not anytime soon. For fuck's sakes, they don't even consider Mongols Chinese, and they've been fucking "Chinese" women forever now.
The culture and everything having to do with it is too introvert.

Like I said, as far as development and being a well-functioned state goes, China is on top of things--nobody needs to worry about that. But in its culture and ways of thinking, the Chinese have to realize that neoliberal ideologies dominate this planet and they're just, like the old story goes, the frog at the bottom at the well.

[Gridlock]

Well, China is doing things a little different.

1. People say that in China you are on your own for medical bills, old age and the like. Well, given that what fucked Europe and fucked the US is high entitlement to state provided resources, then I would say that China is doing well in that regard, from a purely financial stand-point.

2. Not changing the government every 4 years has its benefits...and some drawbacks. Consistency in government can make a lot of things happen very quickly. If I make a 10 year plan for economic development, then its easy(er) to carry out as chances are I'm still going to be in power in 10 years. I can answer for its success, or failure, not be signing up for book tours saying, "well, shitty". Flip side that...if the people in charge don't know what they are doing, well, you be fucked. Mao...that was aimed at you.

3. Can we stop calling China communist? It's well moved on to "dictatorial capitalism"

In regards to this guy, yeah, he's always going to be an outsider. Guess the fuck what...people that emigrate to the US from China feel the EXACT same way. Yeah, the US gov't probably wouldn't seize a chinese owned magazine, but come on buddy, you knew full well what you were dealing with when you started there.

[SkinnyPupp]

Once again, someone completely misses the point. Nobody is complaining about being an 'outsider'. If course you're going to be an outsider when you immigrate. That's not the issue...

Do people even read anymore? Or does everyone just 'skim' everything nowadays? Personally I don't bother clicking play on a Youtube video unless it's under 1 minute, but do people treat articles and editorials the same way?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

lol i guess this can be a lesson on perspective.

[yray]

^ it's because this article should be cut into two. first part about the system and money ,the second on moral issues.

[SkinnyPupp]

While reading it, I was actually worried there would be backlash on the superficial topics of his personal experiences... But without that, it wouldn't have been as insightful... so I guess it depends on the reading skill and perspective of the reader. The only reaction I am really shocked by is Stylinred's.