The Uses and Abuses of University

[heleu]

http://thewalrus.ca/the-uses-and-abuses-of-university/

Long read, but a MUST read for anyone in university, or thinking of it.

Some excerpts:

We now have one of the world’s highest rates of residents with post-secondary degrees and diplomas, second only to South Korea’s. But not all degrees are valued equally in the job market, and as additional students graduate each year the university degree’s earning potential has, in some fields, fallen significantly.

Students who complete degrees in applied and specialized disciplines generally do fine; petroleum engineers are pulling in plenty of job offers and high starting salaries, and accounting students often have jobs lined up before they graduate. A strong market exists for accountants, certain kinds of IT specialists, economists, and environmental engineers, as well as nurses and other health care professionals, all high-demand areas with typical starting salaries of $45,000 to $60,000 a year. The same holds true for those finishing medical school or elite law and MBA programs (with post-MBA salaries ranging from $60,000 to $100,000), although there is currently a glut of aspiring lawyers. Doctors, especially, are often wooed with impressive start-up packages, which often include salary guarantees, and such inducements as assistance paying off student loans. For those who choose well—and circumstances can change in a flash if a sector of the economy tanks—university offers an impressive return on investment and attractive salary and career opportunities.

However, those with non-specialized degrees, bachelor’s in the arts and sciences (Rifkin calls them “garden-variety” graduates), face prolonged underemployment.

Most university graduates get jobs, but more than a third accept positions that require no post-secondary qualifications, such as barista or car rental agent. Thus, universities can and do claim that their graduates find jobs, even while graduates complain that their career hopes have been dashed.

Such statistics call into question Canadians’ belief that personal choice trumps all other considerations when students apply to university. They are encouraged to study what they want, rather than to focus on what the economy needs. This means the shape and skill set of the country’s workforce is largely set by the decisions of tens of thousands of eighteen-year-old first-year students. If they choose the humanities or basic science when the market needs engineers and nurses, the economy suffers, and so do they.

Universities are uncomfortable with the reality that for most students they are chiefly job training institutions. Until they accept this fact, the disconnect between the academy and the world of work will continue to grow, and so will public dissatisfaction. As Canada struggles to cope with a lost generation of university graduates, all the while encouraging hundreds of thousands more students to enrol, the misalignment of education and employment adds to the uncertainties of young Canadians struggling to find their way.

[Drow]

this is new and exciting

[inv4zn]

People (re: most Asians) who go to university only because their parents tell them to are the ones that go into Arts and Science. They have NO idea what they want to do for themselves, and are only in the university so their parents can proudly say to their friends that their son/daughter is XX university.

And then they bitch and complain that they can't get jobs.

[LuHua]

I thought this was already pretty obvious to anyone considering university? If you're in science, there's not much to go on unless you plan to get into pharmacy, med, or dentistry. That, or you can go into a specialized field, say...biotech.

As for arts...well psychology is ok, other than that I know a few people who're in it just to get A degree, and are going into a work field that has nothing to do with said degree.

[van_city23]

Originally Posted by LuHua

As for arts...well psychology is ok

what's okay about pysc? Isn't job perspectives very limited with this major as well unless you are actually going into clinical pysc is which is also very tough to get into?

[inv4zn]

Mind you, what I said above is a generalization.

Of course there will still be people who graduate from Engineering and now get a job for 5 years, and someone who graduates with a Psyc degree and get a job right away.

Generally though, most people go into arts/science because they couldn't get into another faculty.

[dinosaur]

I chose a BA with a major in a specific field. Had a job in that field the year before I graduated....amazing job and the pay was great.

The difference is, I spent some time researching exactly what I wanted to do....volunteered in my field, did co-op/field school, work study, etc. By the time I got my job I had a huge reference list.

You can't just go to uni, major is a field like psych, english, history, etc, attend class and leave, and expect to get a related job the day you graduate.

Girl I know uni...same degree but she JUST went to uni...no volunteering, no work study, didn't join any associations, etc. Worked part time at a bank to get her through uni....where is she now? Working full time at the bank.

[Gridlock]

Let's talk the real abuse of university. Indentured Servitude.

Do you really need a university degree to perform this task, or does your employer wish to have a group of employees with a student loan so that they show up on time every day.

Think it doesn't happen? I worked for a company that had as a corporate policy, world wide of no re-hires of ex-employees. Anywhere. If you worked for them in Bangledesh, and quit, you were out for life. It was a method of control. That also meant that you couldn't do any longer trips, or take extra time off or any of the other reasons that you sometimes want to keep your job, but not work. Oh, and to drive it home, no unpaid leave either, as corporate policy.

Stay loyal. Bleed blue. Take your 2 weeks when we tell you. Here's all the times that aren't convenient for your vacation.

I happened to be good enough at my job that when I wanted to travel for a month, I was allowed, and it caused waves with other people that had been denied.

I remember watching a shitty Jennifer Aniston movie, and it was talking about her not being promoted, and her boss says, "look. There is nothing tying you down. I put you up a level, and there is nothing that keeps you from walking out, and taking my clients with you. You live like a student."

And I'll tell you, more than anything, more than money, more than a fancy business card with a cool title, I like my freedom. I want to choose to come here. I want to make that choice every single day. And the day I feel like I HAVE to be here, and I hate it, then I've lost.

The other huge abuse of university is cheap money. Universities are a business like any other. I remember when I was 17/18 and narrowing down on what to do in life, the Nova Scotia gov't was promoting computers like crazy. Just computers. The "information superhighway" was going to put NS on the map. Just computer it up kids. Software, hardware whatever. Here, we're opening spots in schools. I saw that, and all I got was "huge glut of computer dudes in a province that is NOT going to be on the feeder route, to the road that drives beside the superhighway, let alone be a stop on it"

Tuition can go up, because students get a free fucking credit card to buy it. Oh...you'll have to pay it back, but fuck that, you'll be making HUGE money. Spend it kids! You have a 20 year old that is signing up for 12k a year in debt. That's more money than they have ever fucking had access to! I remember being 18 years old, in a line to the student load feed trough like sheep to the slaughter. Stamp stamp stamp and sign. There you go dude. Deposits in your account tomorrow. Peace!

You think I sat there and asked myself, why I was spending 4k a year on tuition at a school where I was taking "business" but didn't know what I wanted to do with it? No. I had a pimp apartment, had a fun school to go to and life decisions can wait. Was my school worth 4k? I don't know. Tuition in BC was like half at that time.

All you ever hear is that you NEED post-secondary. Now, I don't ever regret my education(I finally went to BCIT for a 2 year program) as even though my work now does not require it, I use it daily. It is the difference in being able to have a conversation where I at least know enough to talk the lingo. Now, really I could have taken a class on accounting and maybe stats and gotten the same thing but whatever...

[quasi]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

I chose a BA with a major in a specific field. Had a job in that field the year before I graduated....amazing job and the pay was great.

The difference is, I spent some time researching exactly what I wanted to do....volunteered in my field, did co-op/field school, work study, etc. By the time I got my job I had a huge reference list.

You can't just go to uni, major is a field like psych, english, history, etc, attend class and leave, and expect to get a related job the day you graduate.

Girl I know uni...same degree but she JUST went to uni...no volunteering, no work study, didn't join any associations, etc. Worked part time at a bank to get her through uni....where is she now? Working full time at the bank.

This is what I try and stress, education is great but it almost has to be combined with practical experience. Even entry level jobs usually require experience and at the very least experience in a field will move you to the top of the list when competing with other people who only have education.

I don't know how many times I've heard I can't work or I can't volunteer because I'm a full time student, that's a bunch bullshit for the most part. Is it easy? Nope. Is it doable? Absolutely, people do it all the time.

The jobs and the volunteer work does not have to be exactly in the field you're looking to head into but they should involve similar skills or experiences that can translate. If my kid doesn't do it right I swear to baby jebus in the manger I'm going to beat him.

[iEatClams]

I graduated UBC a whiles ago, and I remember seeing so many kids who don't have any social skills, nor can they do anything common sense wise. They can learn and study the textbooks but they have no REAL LIFE experiences. Too many book-smart kids that can't even communicate properly, the presentations in the classrooms were a snore-fest.

Some of these kids can't even speak english properly, how the fck did these kids get into school?

[GLOW]

i was probably one of those kids
one job i took right out of school was a CSR job. that drastically improved my social skills in the workplace and with strangers/people in general. i'm glad i did something a little different than a technical job right away to fill a huge gap in my personality that helps me in my career.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by azndude69

I graduated UBC a whiles ago, and I remember seeing so many kids who don't have any social skills, nor can they do anything common sense wise. They can learn and study the textbooks but they have no REAL LIFE experiences. Too many book-smart kids that can't even communicate properly, the presentations in the classrooms were a snore-fest.

Some of these kids can't even speak english properly, how the fck did these kids get into school?

That's like my brother, 3rd year mechanical eng. at Uvic, he's in the upper third of his class and he says his peers are almost all just numbers ppl have almost no social skills, while its also who you know, he's been working engineering jobs in his off time since the first semester while these people who have zero social skills work at Starbucks for their part
Time work experience
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[Hehe]

As a BA graduate, I find nothing wrong with the university.

It's just too many people go to post-secondary education with the mentality (or perhaps from pressure of their family) that they need to get a degree before continuing their life.

Thus, we have people who cheat/copy their way through college. I have several classmate who, after graduate, have no idea of even the fundamental theories on our major (economics). They didn't really want to study. But they just needed an easy way to get a degree.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Our society is so fucked up believing that any person with an university degree, however dumb they are, is better than having no degree.

You see this on all the HR ads. Minimum requirement for xx position is post-sec, Master... etc.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Hehe

As a BA graduate, I find nothing wrong with the university.

It's just too many people go to post-secondary education with the mentality (or perhaps from pressure of their family) that they need to get a degree before continuing their life.

Thus, we have people who cheat/copy their way through college. I have several classmate who, after graduate, have no idea of even the fundamental theories on our major (economics). They didn't really want to study. But they just needed an easy way to get a degree.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Our society is so fucked up believing that any person with an university degree, however dumb they are, is better than having no degree.

You see this on all the HR ads. Minimum requirement for xx position is post-sec, Master... etc.

And even if it's not a requirement, it's a "requirement". Not only that, but the number of people out there with degrees and without employment is ridiculous. People without degrees have a hard time competing not just because of the requirements, but simply because if I have a choice of two resumes which look similar but one has a degree and the other doesn't...game over.


When I was hiring at the conversation school I used to work at, in the beginning we used to get first/second year university students as teachers. Looking for PT work, something fun and easy, social etc. One of the last employees that I hired before I stepped down as the head teacher was a woman who was a certified BC Board teacher with 3 years experience in Victoria and was working on her Psychology master's.

Part of it is she was looking for PT stuff. But I was also getting a LOT of applications for overqualified people. A bachelor's is the new highschool diploma. And a master's degree is approaching the new norm.

[Meowjin]

Graeme I honestly think job experience will trump a degree any day.

[dinosaur]

You need to have the package. If it takes you a year longer to finish your degree because you are working/volunteering, etc i think it is great!

A desirable needs to have the practical experience along with social experience. Working in customer service, even if it is McDonald's, gives you experience in communication, problem solving, working in a team, etc. Simple skill sets such as, answering the phone, having a professional or semi-professional conversation, dressing appropriately, shaking hands, critical thinking are just as important as having a university education.

The amount of people I interact with on a daily basis that do not know how to simply have a professional conversation on the phone or over email is astounding!

Yes, you need the book-smarts to deal with your client, but you also need to street-smarts to do it effectively.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Meowjin

Graeme I honestly think job experience will trump a degree any day.

These days, honestly, JUST a degree or JUST experience rarely cuts it. Dino's hit the nail on the head.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by Meowjin

Graeme I honestly think job experience will trump a degree any day.

i agree with you. unfortunately on paper it is sometimes difficult to tell if the right experience is there to trump the degree. i think often HR people don't have that technical background to differentiate and are given a wish list by technical managers and team leads what to look for. at least with a degree it shows you have the base technical training. this is speaking from an engineering background.

in my life i've crossed paths with SO many people with industry experience and knowledge without degrees that could teach an engineer a thing or 2 about design & implementation. i have so much respect for trades guys i wish i was younger i would love to take a year or 2 as an apprentice just to have that understanding of how shit gets done in real life.

the complete package is most desireable...but those guys i think are senior positions are they not?

[SpeedStars]

Originally Posted by azndude69

I graduated UBC a whiles ago, and I remember seeing so many kids who don't have any social skills, nor can they do anything common sense wise. They can learn and study the textbooks but they have no REAL LIFE experiences. Too many book-smart kids that can't even communicate properly, the presentations in the classrooms were a snore-fest.

Some of these kids can't even speak english properly, how the fck did these kids get into school?

That's why UBC has the broader-based system this year. To weed out all the socially awkward kids.

[Tapioca]

Credentialism is the norm.

The self-made, "I got to where I am on street smarts and my ability to hustle" tend to be over-represented in these debates because they're the loudest. No question that such people should brag, after all they worked hard to get where they are.

On the other hand, put yourself in the shoes of an owner or hiring manager. If I had 30 people lining up to take my job, would I call the people with degrees and experience vs those with just experience?
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[heleu]

When I went to university, I had no idea what I wanted to study. Like any good Asian, my parents expected me to get a degree. Fortunately, I "defaulted" to engineering for the same reason in the article: it was one of the few "professional" undergraduate degrees that directly lead to a job.

Does experience trump credentials? Depends. You can't become an engineer without a degree. You can definitely work in engineering without a degree, but I've found it to be very limiting for most. An extreme example is the eMBA (executive) MBA programs that exist just to give credentials to veteran executives that need to "look" better.

But is the degree only a door opener? For engineering at least, I didn't use any of the technical things I learned at work. You can do any of the calculations at my old job with a high school education. But I did learn all the teamwork, problem solving, and work ethic skills in school that are expected in a professional work environment.

When my kid is of age to go post-secondary, I'll definitely educate them of more options - I think there is definitely more than one way to succeed.

[GGnoRE]

Originally Posted by Meowjin

Graeme I honestly think job experience will trump a degree any day.

In the longrun this is probably true but not so much when you are a junior.

At entry-level, your best chance of obtaining a good "job experience" is your degree and your GPA. Maybe we are talking about different industries though...

[Energy]

Yep, in my field GPA and degree are key to getting an interview. However, once in the interview stage personality, fit, and ECs come into play because they know that you are smart and capable if you are able to secure an interview.

And I think I did mention before that the purpose of university is to spread and grow knowledge and not to get students jobs except for a few professional programs.

[kcl38]

First year asked an advisor about what career paths the degree I wanted lead towards. After she was unable to answer that I started to look into getting a professional degree

[drunkrussian]

top things university taught me that i use everyday in my job/in job hunting/in life:

-when faced with tons of things to do at once, pick and choose priorities, separate tasks, take shortcuts without compromising final product (ie prioritize, maximize efficiency)

-differentiate yourself from competition, assess not just expectations but who your audience is and what exactly to them is a good product (ie differentiate and add value)

-learn to speak AND listen, write AND follow instructions, read AND read between the lines (ie soft skills)

-be responsible, set goals and be calculating in deciding my own future

All these things i learned from working with others in groups, having to balance a heavy workload, picking and choosing what to work on, strategizing grade point average/curves, seeing how i can take shortcuts without compromising final product, and through programs like co-op work

Those who fail a lot of the time in their careers after getting a degree are the ones who think school is about getting a degree because jobs out there require it. "It's all about the piece of paper". Those who understand the true value of attending university and gaining life skills and discipline from it, are the ones who succeed and get their money's worth