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Old 02-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #26
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Is just tough these days......... for us who works and got a decent job we can still manage but for those low income is really hard(by low I mean making min wage).

And it seems is only going to get harder and harder........
Oh, absolutely. I'll never tell someone how they should or shouldn't raise their kids (and by that, I mean if they're to be home schooled or sent to private school, daycare or home cared, etc.), but the Lower Mainland in particular is getting more and more expensive for lower income families to raise children. That's not to say it isn't doable; it is, but you've got to adjust your life accordingly.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:57 PM   #27
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I'm not gonna bother quoting some of you, nor retract any of the statements that I've made.

Based on what I see from today's children growing up (not from the years I was growing up in the 80s, back then, daycare was optional), those who don't attend daycare at a young age versus those whom are homeschool have a very significant difference in their development. The ones that go to daycare with a Montessori program of some sort appears to be keener and more knowledgeable than those who don't. Say what you want about money not being that all that important about raising children. At the end of the day, it does.

Most mother's these days probably make more money than the dad. It doesn't make sense for them to quit their jobs, just to save $2000 per month on daycare, when the mom probably easily make $5000+ per month on her salary. So yeah, for those that can afford it. Great! But for those who cannot afford daycare, your child is missing out and will probably have trouble keeping up when they enter pre-school/kindergarten.

No I don't have children, but I have a set of eyes that can observe what some parents are doing that's right or wrong, based on my judgement. It's a dog eat dog world out there, even more so, in today's generation. If your kid cant have a head-start in life just because you can't afford to put them in the right program. The problem is you.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:09 PM   #28
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Say what you want about money not being that all that important about raising children. At the end of the day, it does.
No. At the end of the day, parents are/should be the ones raising the children. Too often, parents get consumed with work, and substitute financial provision for, actually, being a parent, and taking a proactive role in building up a productive member of society.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:48 PM   #29
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If you see your neighbour's kid all taking extra class, activites wouldn't you want your kids to as well to even the playing field?
Do you keep up with the Joneses (or perhaps in your case, the Chans) in your personal life? Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.

There is one thing my parents gave me that put me ahead of the pack: the trust to make my own decisions. I walked to school when I was 6. I was allowed to study what I wanted. You could enroll your kids in every program in the world, but if you don't give them any autonomy, it means nothing.

I can only speak from personal experience, but maybe I'm just an anomaly. Or maybe I'm a testament to the old ways of parenting.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:56 PM   #30
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daycare is expensive as fuck in Vancouver, but its temporary. As the kids get older the cost comes down. daycare for my 2 kids costs more than I earn in a month, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

It's not like i don't have savings.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #31
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Do you keep up with the Joneses (or perhaps in your case, the Chans) in your personal life? Just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.

There is one thing my parents gave me that put me ahead of the pack: the trust to make my own decisions. I walked to school when I was 6. I was allowed to study what I wanted. You could enroll your kids in every program in the world, but if you don't give them any autonomy, it means nothing.

I can only speak from personal experience, but maybe I'm just an anomaly. Or maybe I'm a testament to the old ways of parenting.
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You don't have have just that you aren't getting a head start with your kids that's all.
How would you know what your kids potential are or work to their full potential if you don't even give them a chance to try a bit of everything? Or even develpe their interest into it?

Take Tiger woods do you think he would be as famous as he was today if his parents didn't get him to play golf when he was 6? Sure he might still be good at it but if his parents decide not to get him invole in golf he might not be as interested or be as successful as he was.

Will everyone who enroll their kids in these activiates get the same result as Tiger Woods. Most likely not but it gives parents a chance to see what their kids are into, what thier kids like, what thier kids shows potential in.

You might agure will look at Bill Gates, he doens't have much school and look where he is now, well how many Bill Gates are there in this world Vs how many average Joe there is?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #32
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My 2-cents:

First, I don't have kids....but I am early 30s, plan to have a kid or 2, and have countless friends with kids. All my friends are different....some are out of the house for 10 hours a day for work while the kids are in day-care and have been since their mat-leave ended around the kids' 1st birthday while others have opted to have one parent stay home.

Each have their own pros and cons and I must admit, some times my heart breaks thinking about a toddler being away from home for 50 hours a week but it works for them. That couple in particular is a little driven by money, keeping up with the neighbours, having the house, cars, vacations, etc. It may not be others' priority, but it is theirs.

Other friends have been able to have one parent stay home, have been able to supplement the income by taking on another kid to babysit or just stuck to a strict budget as a sacrifice to stay home the personally rear their child.

Is there a difference between the 2 kids? Not really....both appear to have equal intelligence, social skills, and attitude.

What I find annoying is reading several posts in this thread of teen to early 20s dudes who still live at home making bold statements of what they think is right. You don't know. Nobody does until you are in that situation. I would like to think that I would stay at home to raise my child to avoid day-care but until I am in that situation, who the fuck knows.

I never went to day-care. My mom stayed home until I went to kindergarten then I had a babysitter who would pick me up from school and take me home until my parents got home at 4:30 or I would go to a parent's friend's house. I was enrolled in activities like swimming and gymnastics and, in my opinion, had well-developed social skills. Would I have been different if I was in day-care at one year old? Who knows, but I managed to function without it.

I would HOPE that when the time comes for me to procreate, I will be able to make the choice and not be forced to choose due to financial reasons.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:13 PM   #33
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Dinosaur with kids?





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Old 02-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #34
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bullshit. all of it. I know a single mom who has 3 kids (all under 10 years old) and doesn't make nearly 100k/yr. If you have kids and they're 'too expensive' then move the fuck out of vancouver because that's why its too expensive.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:10 PM   #35
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No. At the end of the day, parents are/should be the ones raising the children. Too often, parents get consumed with work, and substitute financial provision for, actually, being a parent, and taking a proactive role in building up a productive member of society.
I wasn't suggesting that parents shouldnt take an active role in raising their kids. In fact, they should supplement that with daycare. You think people who work in daycare are just a bunch of full-time babysitters that's there just to look after your kids? They are trained individuals whom went to school with the right skills that can help your child develop early on in reading, writing, social skills, and the means to be creative. Not all parents are capable of teaching, if you can't then put them right in the program.

Not sure where you got the indication that putting a child in daycare means you don't need to spend more time with your kids. There's absolutely no correlation.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:51 PM   #36
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Yes, it is. However, your home life can change dramatically, often with only a moment's notice.

My best friend was married for a few years, had two kids, and was making good money (her ex pulled in huge coin working the oil fields). However, he got into drugs, cheated on her (once with a 14 year old, gross enough), and spent all their money on random shit that they didn't need. She tried to save enough money every month to pay for bills but he would still manage to get a hold of that cash and spend it on drugs anyway. Didn't help that he was physically abusive to her as well.

Then one day she had enough, packed up a U-Haul while he was out of town working, grabbed the kids, and fled the province and went to her parents. The husband, after finding out what happened, skipped town and left her tens of thousands of dollars in debt because he decided to stop working. This was four years ago and she only recently managed to pay off every debt that he left her, all the while raising two little girls on her own while working low paying (albeit higher than minimum wage) jobs. I would help out when I could with bills or babysitting, but it was basically all her... all on minimum income.

I realize that this is an extreme example, but the point is that you can't judge someone's situation without hearing the whole story first.
no offence but sounds like she made some pretty poor choices along the way along with the issues regarding the children, obviously stuff like that cant be forseen but she was with him long enough to allow all that to happen.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:11 PM   #37
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I'd say barely affordable is more accurate (to most)...
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:15 PM   #38
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no offence but sounds like she made some pretty poor choices along the way along with the issues regarding the children, obviously stuff like that cant be forseen but she was with him long enough to allow all that to happen.

thats a dick comment, dude.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:18 PM   #39
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no offence but sounds like she made some pretty poor choices along the way along with the issues regarding the children, obviously stuff like that cant be forseen but she was with him long enough to allow all that to happen.
Not really. The drugs and cheating happened while he was away at camp. It wasn't until close to the end of the relationship that it started appearing at their house.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:49 PM   #40
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having children is no doubt expensive, but at the end of the day, guess what? you will change and adapt to accommodate them with the income that you do have. your lifestyle will change, you may cut activities of your own, and etc. your children will be the number one priorities for your cash flow.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:55 PM   #41
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None of you have kids, do you?

While it does make things a little harder, having kids and raising them with a "below median" income isn't difficult. Yes, daycare costs a lot (in some cases it's actually cheaper for the second parent to quit work and take care of the kid full time), but the government has subsidies in place to help lower income families. I know a bunch of people who have opted for both routes - some sent their kids to daycare while others looked after them at home. Apart from one kid, all these kids have (so far) grown up to be your typical child. So long as you regulate screen time, give them play dates, and have plenty of things for them to do, kids kept at home don't really have an issue.

Yes, children cost money. There's absolutely no doubting that. However, when you do have kids, your priorities change. Suddenly you no longer yearn for that set of Works rims or the latest video game. Like it or not, your kids become your life. You start realizing you have all this extra cash that you didn't know you had before because everything now revolves around them and whatever else you had in your life takes a backseat for the next eighteen years.

I have friend raising kids on incomes that range from technically the poverty line right up to being a multi-millionaire. The only difference I've seen between them all are pointlessly spending extra money on things that aren't needed (c'mon, who really needs to buy a pair of $50 DC shoes for a 6 month old when you're going to need a new pair in another two months anyway?). The children with less well off parents are still getting into the same activities, becoming friends with the same kids, and experiencing things the exact same.



And before anyone else says that if you have less money, the fewer opportunities you have... that's bullshit. Sure, they may not go to Yale or Eton, but who gives a crap. I have friends who grew up with almost no money and they're now high level execs, successful architects, and one who is a multi-award winning film maker in Europe. I also have a couple friends who grew up with an endless supply of money who now mooch off their parents because they couldn't be bothered to go to Uni and make a life for themselves.

Sending your kid away on multiple music lessons, private schools, summer camp, sports, swimming, etc., doesn't necessarily make them any better prepped for life than someone who only gets to experience a fraction of those. I was sent away for almost all of those (except private school.... private school can suck my balls), and I hated almost every experience. I despised my parents for making me constantly do things and not having any sort of free time. I actually rebelled and ended up despising my parents for a while because of it, which kinda set me back a couple years.



Anyway, I think before any of you make any sort of judgment, try walking in someone else' shoes for a while. Trust me, there's no real "minimum" amount of money you need to make before you can have kids.







Adjust your standard of living, you two.


As eloquent as you have put it, all your points of rebuttal are exactly what scares me of a lot of the approaches people take to parenthood.



1. People having kids even though they know it is beyond their means because at the end of the day, there's government subsidies.

Although I am not against this particular resource... I just don't get how some people think its okay to benefit from other people's sacrfices... you know, people who choose never to become parents for what they believe is the prudent choice. It really makes me wonder about those types.


2. Like Tapioca mentioned on Page 2, its very unhealthy to live the ideology of "keeping up with the Joneses". Atlhough I agree in sentiment, I don't understand how a parent can tell their kids:

A) you can't play Ice hockey with your friends because I can't afford to.
B) As materialistic as it sounds, you can't get an xbox like your friends because I can't afford to. In consolation, here's a stick and use your imagination like we used to in the 80's.

Ultimately, Tapioca is in the right; but I just don't have it in me to break those words should I ever have a kid of my own.


3. Yes I understand you can, (and I can to) give many examples of kids who grew up with humble means but managed to be extremely successful and vice-versa. However, I still think it's your job as a parent to provide your child with adequate resource so that he can to live a good life and not just merely survive. The problem herein lies as to how do we define adequate?


Is adequate just merely raising a kid with the bare minimum of clothing, food, and education and hope that you get a cinderella story of a child?

Or have the resources in this day and age to give him a shot at a decent/good life and leave it up to him should he squander it or make the most out of it?
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:26 PM   #42
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The problem herein lies as to how do we define adequate?


Is adequate just merely raising a kid with the bare minimum of clothing, food, and education and hope that you get a cinderella story of a child?

Or have the resources in this day and age to give him a shot at a decent/good life and leave it up to him should he squander it or make the most out of it?
there is no definite definition of adequate. it is merely a relative term from person to person, family to family. a rich family can supply their kid with an adequate car which can be a porshe while a moderate income family equivalency of adequate is a corolla. you do the best you can as a parent with the means you got.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #43
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there is no definite definition of adequate. it is merely a relative term from person to person, family to family. a rich family can supply their kid with an adequate car which can be a porshe while a moderate income family equivalency of adequate is a corolla. you do the best you can as a parent with the means you got.

Or what if you couldn't afford a car at all? Any car? What if it's not just a car? Sports programs? What if you can't afford enrolling him to soccer teams, ice hockey teams, baseball?


Take it from a kid who grew up with a lot of "NO's" from my parents. I love my parents and I have not doubt they love me, but there is no way I'm putting a kid through the bare minimums now that I can make choices of my own. (Or close to bare).
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:18 PM   #44
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Or what if you couldn't afford a car at all? Any car? What if it's not just a car? Sports programs? What if you can't afford enrolling him to soccer teams, ice hockey teams, baseball?


Take it from a kid who grew up with a lot of "NO's" from my parents. I love my parents and I have not doubt they love me, but there is no way I'm putting a kid through the bare minimums now that I can make choices of my own. (Or close to bare).
and thats just fine if your parents can't afford a car. or can't enroll you in this or that. who is to judge and tell who is able to afford to raise kids or not. you do what you can with what you have. im from the same place as you were. my parents didn't put me into any extra curricular programs. they never got me a car until i actually had no choice but to get one when i had to go to victoria for practicum. i never got allowance. i only got what i needed on an necessity basis. i started working when i was 16 at mcdonalds and that was my first real income. i turned out to be just fine. i just had my first born several months ago and i don't have a combined income of 100k+, but guess what, its manageable.

as long as im able to put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and put them through education im happy. anything else is just gravy on the side.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:36 PM   #45
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My two bits............

I was going to fail the second post in this thread, then realized, it all depends on the parents. Some parents really fail at raising their own kids.

Bonding with your child(ren) early on in their development is so important. Sending them off to day care for someone else to look after is definitely not better. As far as academics and skills acquisision is concerned, that depends on the parents. Some parents can't even get their own shit together.............

My kids were blessed with a great mom. She was on top of everything from day one. She taught them well. They were all reading by the age of three. They were surrounded with books and were exposed to all kinds of neat stuff. None of which cost a whole lot of money - just time and commitment. When they were old enough for school, their mother was there correcting the teachers and keeping them uptodate with the latest developments in cognitive research and education in general - promising (aka best) practice.

As for keeping the kids busy 24/7, we agreed that too much is not a great thing, so it was piano lessons, if they wanted, and band in later years. We firmly believe that music is vital during the developmental years.

We also focussed on making sure the kids developed a good moral compass. Not sure if I could trust daycare or public schools, for that matter, to address those types of issues. My wife also did a great job with that (I, on the other hand, was not a good role model for the kids, LOLOLOL).

Anyway, the best thing I did was to work two jobs to make ends meet, while the wife looked after our kids. I was the dad who came home and scared the shit out of them if and when they stepped out of line (we dads get the shitty jobs, yeah?).

It wasn't easy making ends meet, but we're the ones who decided to bring them into this god forsaken world. It was our obligation to raise them to be productive citizens of our society. A cottage in the woods, I don't have, or an expensive car, or a pleasure craft. Not rich by a long shot, but my kids make me the richest guy in the neighbourhood.

If I fail to make a positive difference in this world, I'm hoping they can.

I can go on and on, but to say that daycare is better than parents raising their own kids...... .
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:37 PM   #46
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^+1. i would thank you a million times if i could.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:38 PM   #47
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as long as im able to put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and put them through education im happy. anything else is just gravy on the side.

That's admirable that you feel that way. But can you predict of your kids will feel the same?
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:43 PM   #48
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That's admirable that you feel that way. But can you predict of your kids will feel the same?
i do what i can. i provide the best i can. i teach the best i can. later in life if my kids tell me to fuck off, guess what, so be it. i would be hella heart broken, but i did what i thought was best. if they fail to see that and they don't feel like i provided enough, what more can i say but to suck it up.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:49 PM   #49
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Spoiler!

Took the words right out of my mouth, except you worded it much better.

At the end of the day, there is really no right or wrong answers. Some feel that they can raise their kids on a minimal basis and still do well, others want to give their kids all the chances in the world, so that they can have a higher chance of success in life. It's a matter of perspective. Perhaps I shouldn't even had voice my opinion in the first place, as I don't have plans to have children in the future
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:56 PM   #50
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I think a lot of people are confusing daycare with pre-school.

daycare=filing cabinet for kids while you are at work

pre-school=more focus on educational activity



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As eloquent as you have put it, all your points of rebuttal are exactly what scares me of a lot of the approaches people take to parenthood.



1. People having kids even though they know it is beyond their means because at the end of the day, there's government subsidies.

Although I am not against this particular resource... I just don't get how some people think its okay to benefit from other people's sacrfices... you know, people who choose never to become parents for what they believe is the prudent choice. It really makes me wonder about those types.


2. Like Tapioca mentioned on Page 2, its very unhealthy to live the ideology of "keeping up with the Joneses". Atlhough I agree in sentiment, I don't understand how a parent can tell their kids:

A) you can't play Ice hockey with your friends because I can't afford to.
B) As materialistic as it sounds, you can't get an xbox like your friends because I can't afford to. In consolation, here's a stick and use your imagination like we used to in the 80's.

Ultimately, Tapioca is in the right; but I just don't have it in me to break those words should I ever have a kid of my own.


3. Yes I understand you can, (and I can to) give many examples of kids who grew up with humble means but managed to be extremely successful and vice-versa. However, I still think it's your job as a parent to provide your child with adequate resource so that he can to live a good life and not just merely survive. The problem herein lies as to how do we define adequate?


Is adequate just merely raising a kid with the bare minimum of clothing, food, and education and hope that you get a cinderella story of a child?

Or have the resources in this day and age to give him a shot at a decent/good life and leave it up to him should he squander it or make the most out of it?
I don't think you automatically become a better parent because you can say yes to more shit that just doesn't matter.

There is something to be said for being able to say yes to some of the good, important stuff-but I'm not going to deny someone the chance to raise their own kids purely based on not being able to buy them an xbox.

There is more to life than material shit.
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