Oh, trust me when I say no one gives a fuck about the guy that got banned. It was more about the principle.

With the many recent bans going on (especially the whole bcrdukes fiasco which I thought was overexaggerated), I think we were all confused as to why exactly BMW was banned when his comment was what I considered to be within RS standards. The only thing I could see that the mods could take offense to was the tone or content of his comment (despite it being very plausible). Then again, there were a bunch of further posts later on in the thread that pretty much said the same thing.

But as Graeme has explained (which I appreciate), I see his reasonings behind the ban. And even though I may not personally agree that it was the right course of action, it is what it is.

Perhaps the reason threads like these pop up is because there's a big lack of transparency when a ban is made public. There is barely ever a comment written as to why a ban is a ban, and while it may be obvious for the majority of posts, the recent bans were a bit more ambiguous.

Then there's also the fact that alot of stupid shit has been said on this forum to the point that it's almost become an unwritten rule that it's tolerable. I think a public announcement should be made and/or email sent to all members if you guys wish to proceed to clean up the tone of speech on the board.

Sometimes I also feel there is strong inconsistencies within the moderation board. bcrdukes was banned for the chink comment, yet no one as far as I knew was banned from that thread with all "nuke the shithole Africa" comments.

I don't know. These have just been my thoughts from the last several days.

One of the biggest issues with RS is that if you're too strict, people won't post because they figure "whatever, I'll just get points/banned" If you're too lax, you end up with people leaving RS because they get offended/out-sworn/what have you. What this results in is a constant wave; ebbs and flows, as I posted in the RWB thread.

One of the issues is new members. You see, it's an issue of respect and conscientiousness. When the old schoolers and chill people are just shooting the shit, we can easily predict and guess what they're going to say and we know what it means. But what do we do when new members join and say the same things? Do we let it slide because the old schoolers say it? So if we do, the OSers say "Well, shit, the new kids got away with that, I guess we can get a little looser with our tongues and our insults" and then a shitstorm ensues.

It's like the difference between talking with you and your buddies and when you're out and about. There's a big difference between shooting the shit and talking with your buddies in a coffeeshop. Sometimes, when you're out and about, you need one of your friend to be like "Dude, shut up about nailing that chick last night. There's a fucking kid behind you, man!"

The mods are that buddy. And sometimes we make the right call and keep the conversation appropriate for the situation. And sometimes we don't. And it's threads like this that help us understand exactly where and when it is that we're supposed to intervene.


So let's keep this ball rolling.

so, they were appropriate at the time, are they still appropriate?

I don't get it still.

What he said didn't warrant points, so he shouldn't be banned by points... and if it's not point worthy, then he shouldn't of been banned at all period...

what he said wasn't wrong at all. in fact he was right... not that that matters.

she could be found all fine and dandy, his post was still fine. I just don't get he would get banned over that. Anyone should be able to say that in that thread and not get any points or get banned.


yeah you don't care because you don't have the fear of getting banned in you.

nor have you ever got banned.

the people that get banned won't message mods. if they do, they'll get ignored.

it's called compassion and empathy, i hope you learn it one day.

that person could be you. and you would have a team of people backing you up if it were unjust.

but if the world were full of people like you, no one would give a fuck if you were dying on the side of the street and couldn't call for help.


see. another example. most people wouldn't even know HOW to contact the mods.

there's not even a "banned" forum people see if they're banned, and post if they think it were unjust.


we don't care about that guy. that guy could be anyone. that guy could be you. that guy could be me.

who cares about his # of posts or his thanks/fail ratio. he said something anyone could have said, for all the right reasons. and he got banned because of it.


yeah that's totally it.

gone are the days where you could ban people just because they think the girls you like are butt ugly.

Oh i believe the person that disagreed with you is me. and i believe you lost your mod powers because you banned me (and several others) without just cause.



People can be banned for just reasons... but if it's unjust I'll stand for them, i don't care who they are, what they've done in the past, or whatever.



so since I posted the original thing, what has been done about hondaracer and bmwm5?

from the sounds of it hondaracer might of been a little out of line, and it seems like his ban is temporary, which is fine.

but what about bmw m5?





I can't find the thread anymore, it's probably in the archives somewhere (for some reason i cannot even see that).
but long ago, i wrote something that just got ignored and laughed at (i suppose everything i write still is still half ignored by most mods, since they still view every single one of my posts as me trying to stir shit up, no different now than back then), but tons of people were getting banned and things were out of control... there were big flame wars back and forth users vs mods.

things are better now since mods can't just fucking ban people at will.

but back then i submitted my idea of having ombudsmen.
basically they are a special type of mod... with no relation to mods. and they cannot be mods as well... that would be a total conflict of interest.

they have separate forums and separate everything. their class of user is entirely their own category. they can see all forums except mod forums and their own ombudsmen forum.
the only thing mods and them can share is they can both see the list of people who have been banned.

the main thing is ... they are there to represent the interest of the users.

they should keep their opinions out of any threads.
they basically are there for banned users to plea to. the ombudsmen will then look into any user who pleas to them... all they have to do is look into the users history and points (which will be visible to them), and consider if the ban was "just".

this basically keeps the mods in check. the mods shouldn't be the ones voting if someone should stay banned. they cannot be the police, judge, jury and executioner all in one. that leads to highly subjective decisions.

I'm not saying these ombudsmen are there to oppose mods. no. they should have no contribution to the forum other than reviewing bans (there must be a forum you guys use to report every user that has been banned).

they shouldn't be personal friends with the mods. they need to be very objective people and base everything on fairness, and what the public seems to want.



yes i understand some mods will get hissy fits and feel like their job is being looked down on, but no... that's just some immature emotional bullshit going on.
if you ban someone, and the ombudsmen unban him, it doesn't mean you're not doing your job. it would just mean you made the wrong decision that one time. most bans would still go through, because as i see it, most bans are dupe accounts and spammers and not actually super trolls or dickwads.


I'm just saying there needs to be a separate body that users can plea to.

No one trusts a cop, so why would you expect users to want to pea to the same people that fucking put a bullet to their head?

plus, that is a big ego boost to the mods and a big slash to the ego to someone that gets banned.

you know how hard it is for someone to beg to the same person that banned them?
you guys sure as hell know how much it boosts your ego when the same guy you banned pleas for forgiveness (even if he's right).

that's just wrong man. users need another outlet of complaint, another outlet for support that's official, that has real power. all these mod vs user threads and posts would all be under the ombudsmen forums and take a load off what mods have to deal with. yes ombudsmen will requests mods to give their input and their view on the situation, and take that into heavy consideration.

but like i said, it's only fair that a perma banned user has one last plea with someone who isn't part of the same group that exiled them.

I am willing to be an ombudsman.

Gudda's not the ombudsman we deserve, but the ombudsman we need.

Thanks, but I am very serious. I believe I possess the fairness quality that an ombudsman needs to carry on his duty successfully.

OMG...wow.

First, I think we've had a constructive thread...some users said their peace, and the mods said theirs. Everyone walks away in a happy, harmonious vibe feeling that the world can continue, now that users and mods of RS can live together.

But, now we need an ombudsman role.

Dude...wtf?

Why stop there? Why not have an ombudsman to the ombudsman? We can call them the "super-ombudsmen" and give them special badges for their avatar. Then, when THAT group gets out of hand, we can have the "Group of Three" who's role is to officiate the decisions that are produced from the super-ombudsman.

Then, we'll need an appeal process.

Or maybe...people could just not say stupid shit? And maybe the mods can remember that sometimes people just say stupid shit. Isn't that what this thread is about? Because here's what I got out of it:

"hey Graeme, could you cool it a little bit on the bans left and right? Maybe speak a bit as to whats happening?"

"Yeah."

Done.

Not at all mellow dramatic.

But isn't this a little bit of the issue here? I HAVE read your shit, and first I find you a funny guy, and this is not personal.

But you kind of always were the guy that liked to be the thorn in the side of mods. You've been here a long ass time, with a large ass amount of posts...but you aren't a mod.

At the end of the day...its an internet forum. It's one of...1000's? Tens of? I don't know. People enjoy a common interest, and enjoy interacting with the same people...but in the world of internet forums, the same problems happen on the same type of sites with the same type of people and revscene puts its pants on one leg at a time just like all the rest. Meaning, people get banned and there is an outcry...mods act and people hate...and there is the inevitable 'wtf' thread and everyone moves on and sings kumbaya.

Everyone should take a moment, close the browser and look out a window and see a whole other world out there. Puts BMW M5's unjust banning into perspective.

no obviously you are not on the same track as everyone else.

everyone said their thing and no one walked away happy, except maybe you.

what happened was everyone walked away and nothing changed, this thread might as well of not existed.

nothing was changed. no one was unbanned. nothing changed.


the ombudsman would be the appeal process.

say stupid shit? you really think people that say "stupid" shit think they're saying stupid shit? do you know what perspective is?

fuck man. i don't know how subjective you can be.

what the fuck is stupid shit?

is what bmwm5 said stupid? no i dont think it was stupid. i think it was 100% fine.

yeah this thread is about that. mods interpreting what "stupid" is.
and what happened? tell them to cool it on the banning? and then what? what about the people that got banned? are they unbanned? no? so what did we really accomplish then? NOTHING.


it doesn't matter. it's the truth. now she fucking nows why people stick together.
the way she was thinking was ultra selfish and self centered. and super subjective.

if she got banned unfairly, i'm sure i'll keep it in my mind not to help her out.

she obviously doesn't have the ability to see it in her head, how having some people that will stand up for you is very comforting. especially a group of people that will help them get unbanned or at least speak out for the weaker users when they get their rights revoked.

did she grow up without a family or some shit? does she not know what camaraderie means?


see, this is where you and most other mods don't get it. you think i "like" being a thorn at their side.
you think i "purposely" do this.

no that is where you are wrong. this is who i am. period. permanently forever. and this is how some other users are too.
we aren't TRYING to be deviant. this is who we are NATURALLY.

Im not a mod... because i don't want to be a mod. it would be a total conflict of interest. i oppose mods that speak out their minds. i think they're like cops.

if i were to become a cop, ulic would have to die. and i'd have to be a good cop and keep my subjective opinions to myself and do my duty.

your argument about this being just a forum and we should open our eyes to the outside world blah blah blah doesn't work buddy.
that is your subjective opinion. I care more about unjust banning than the bum sitting outside the skytrain station begging for money.

you're being very subjective and unfair right now. if you were the one that got banned, you sure as fuck wouldn't be saying these things. (especially if dinosaur got banned, or vice versa).

like i said, you and dinosaur obviously have no perspective of what empathy is.
you do not have the ability to put yourself in someone else shoes and remove your own feelings and views of the world.

put yourself in their shoes.
if the first thing you think is "well i wouldn't say something so stupid". then you've completely missed the point.


like i said, the point of this thread completely flew over your head.

i didn't start it so people can pour out their feelings and mods can do the same then we can walk away all happy. no.
i started it so the two people that got banned would get unbanned, and hopefully nothing similar will happen in the future.


like i said, why are the two users still banned?
http://www.revscene.net/forums/68017...ml#post8159913

the likes are piling up, and not one fail.

and like i said before... he was right. she is dead. (not that that matters). shouldn't he be let back in? I'm very disappointed that not one mod has sided with me on this issue.

perhaps it's just like the LAPD gang mentality. if anyone speaks out, they're just labeled as a black sheep. they're all laughing now, until they're the ones that get banned.

i mean, he could just make a new account, but what does that really accomplish?


EDIT: i realise im not really here to change how mods mod etc. i know that will never change and you guys will never take my ideas seriously. so all i ask is, for bmwm5 to get unbanned, and that mods should always think twice about banning someone based on... i duno, based on some temporary emotional outburst based on subjective views.

like i said... i don't think he did anything wrong. irregardless of his previous posts. that one post should not have gotten points or pushed anyone to ban him. yeah as for hondaracer, i don't even know which thread he got banned in, but i TRUST you guys will deal with that accordingly since he's got a bit more flex than bmwm5.

Yeah, ya know what....I don't give a fuck. This is the internet...and better yet, this is a local forum on cars. This shit ain't life.

You can puke out your shit about me lacking empathy and compassion but what this little display you just put on shows that you have no separation between RS and reality. I guess this is how someone gets to have over 26k posts on one fucking forum.

The thing to remember with ALL forums like this is, they aren't a democracy. They aren't meant to be "fair", neither are they required to be.

This type of forum is generally something that someone started once for fun. Some rules have to be put in place to avoid outside influences shutting them down (ie. someone conducts illegal activity via the forum).

As they become more popular, it becomes necessary to upgrade services. That costs money, money which the owner(s) can carry out-of-pocket, or they can start charging memberships... or they can sell ad space. To SOME degree, it becomes necessary to keep those advertisers... well, if not happy, then at least calm, otherwise they'll take their money elsewhere, the hosting doesn't get paid for, and the forum shuts down.

Through all of this, the people owning and running the forum still need a REASON to do it. If it starts costing too much out-of-pocket, they may decide to just flip the switch. If it becomes too much bitching and arguing, they may decide it's not worth the headache, and flip the switch. Ultimately, interested parties (aka moderators) may volunteer their time to help keep things running smoothly... but there too, if it's volunteer work, they'll only do it as long as it's not too much hassle. Make it so the mods are sick of doing it, they step aside, then the owners get tired of the hassle... and again, the switch gets flipped.

At the end of the day, the person who does all the work and pays the bills has the final say, and he/she/it doesn't need to give any more in-depth explanation than, "Because I said so." So while "transparency" in moderation is NICE TO HAVE, it should never become EXPECTED.

Ad hominem. Whether or not Ulic can distinguish real life from a car forum has nothing to do with the fact that when you're banned for just voicing an opinion that wasn't even wrong, you start questioning why. And when you have no means of finding out and have no one else to help you, you feel like you've been wronged, no matter how big of a degree you are able to separate yourself from online forums.

Sure, forums don't have to be fair. But why would users continue to browse and contribute to a forum if it isn't fair and their membership can instantly be revoked. And remember, the user in question here, BMW_M5, didn't even break any rules and he was banned. If fairness in a forum is not mandatory, so be it, you guys can set rules, we can follow them. But even if the set rules are followed to the tee and users are still getting banned, is that not unjust? Your post has an extreme fatherly vibe coming from it, and I'm not talking about the kind where you take your kids to the park, I'm talking about the kind where you punish a kid, and when they ask why, you say "Because I said so."

Users come here for the same reason the owners and mods keep it running: because they enjoy it. Because they get a personal benefit from it. Because for most of them, the hundreds of helpful, entertaining, amusing, enjoyable threads and users generally outweigh the headaches and unfathomable moderator decisions.

You may put more weight on the odd :fulloffuck: than whatever positives you get out of the forum - that's up to YOU to decide.

For something to be "unjust" there has to be a foundation of justice first. A privately-run forum typically doesn't have one, nor is it required to have one. Thus, it's not "unjust"... it's just the way things are.

I don't have anything to do with the operation or moderation of this forum; I'm just telling you how it is, based on about two-and-a-half decades' online experience using, moderating, and building and running everything from early BBSes and dialup chats, to modern web forums.

So no, I'm not the dad punishing anyone and then telling them to suck it up "because I said so"... I'm the big kid who's been around the block and seen it all, standing off to the side warning you that when you're playing in someone else's sandbox, you play by their rules, and if you don't like those rules, you're welcome to fuck off and build your own sandbox... or if you're going to stand in the middle of that sandbox crying about the rules, you can expect the ACTUAL dads to pick your ass up and toss you in the kiddie pool to chill out.

Those dads don't have to be fair either, because they built the sandbox, they shoveled in the sand into it, and they're the ones who have to go in every day and rake all the poop out of the sand. And if they say your shit stinks, then that's their call, not yours.

bmwm 24.86.174.xxx [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
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m5 24.86.174.xxx [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]

IP Address Search for User: "BMW M5"
Registration IP Address 24.86.174.xxx

I am reviewing this case and upon looking into it, there are multiple registrations. All these have been banned as duplicates are not allowed.

now, secondly I've been also reviewing the ban on the main account BMW M5. I'd like to hear from you in this forum.

banned members from here on have the ability to visit the member support forum to inquire why they were banned, or put in a notion as to why they shouldn't be banned. These will be looked after by the executive council and reviewed.

this is not meant to be abused. If your ban is due to an obvious reason, it will not reach the executive level. If you are appealing a decision just to waste our time, don't.

as for ombudsman, unfortunately that won't happen. As a private entity we are reserving our rights.

so with that said, here is the disposition upon an urgent meeting with another fellow admin late last night:

To BMW M5 - for possible reinstatement, please either post here or contact me via email Niteraven@REVscene.net. We will hear and listen if you have anything you would like to bring up. Please maintain civility.

To general members: thank you for your inputs, I ask that all please cool down for the moment and see which way we can go, to mutually satisfy each others requests.

Not everything will happen overnight, I am but one person and I am a volunteer, I have other much more pressing priorities daily aside from REVscene and I shall do what I can. Consider the same for all moderators and executive council.

thank you all.

she obvioulsy doesn't get it. it just flies over her head. she gets all emotional and subjective and with nothing left she'll start dishing out personal attacks that have no relevance to anything. like a little kid, emotional outburst.

first of all, separation between RS and reality? listen, when you sit in your little room on your laptop for 3+ hours a day on this forum, it becomes your reality. in fact, you probably spend more time on this forum than you do at your job. you're telling me this forum has no relevance on your perception of what reality is? give me a break. you think you can just dish out personal attacks and then shut your laptop off and stare out the window, and forget about your "i don't give a shit" attitude online? please. if you got banned or trolled hard, i highly doubt you'd stay emotionally stable. especially you.

second of all, you just dissed everyone with a huge post count. i don't know about you, but if you bothered to do the math before you blurted out that random attack, you'd realise that some of us have been on this forum for 12-14 years. do the math, that's like an average of 6 posts a day.
http://www.revscene.net/forums/membe...rt=posts&pp=50
oh... i guess they're all delusional losers too right? especially skinnypupp, shit he has even MORE posts than me... in fact most of those users joined AFTER me and have just as many posts. really? really?!

i know exactly what I am doing, whereas you don't. just because you realise the truth in what I have said about you, doesn't mean you can just start spewing out emotional attacks because your panties are in a knot. you are selfish. instead of being even more selfish and attacking others, why don't you just accept the truth in what i said?

i didn't wanna bring this up but, gridlock, get up, go to the other room where she's sitting, and take her laptop away... and you're saying I have no life? ...hah c'mon. don't even go there.

ok, well first, thanks for the professional, un-emotional response.
second... sounds fair. but since a bunch of users are very interested in the outcome of this, I will assume we will be updated if a final final decision has been made if he does decide to contact you guys.

yes he did this morning. I was going to update upon finishing work today but since I'm here I will do so. He apologized for his comment. Wasn't meant to be taken as rude comment but instead an opinion. He chose to keep his bmw m5 account banned and I allowed a duplicate for his use.
Posted via RS Mobile

thanks.

While we have this thread here...I want to clear up something, once and for all.

Apparently...there was discussion in chat that I, somehow and miraculously had something to do with hondaracer being banned. I don't know if its true, or not, or otherwise. Don't know who said it, or why. Could have been straight up conjecture. Who knows.

I don't really care. And I'm going to tell you why.

In fact, this isn't the first time that I've heard my "name" come up as being something involved with issues with many different people. And if its not my name, then its that of my gf, who is on the site.

I'm not a mod. Never have been, and probably never will be. Why? I considered it, and talked to a few people about it, but I personally feel that that isn't where I could be the best contributor.

I do know a few mods. I don't know why specifically that the friends we have made happen to be mods...maybe its because they tend to be older, and sadly that is my age group...I don't have a lot in common with 20 yr olds. I'm going to tell you here and now if you think that gives me an inside track...its doesn't. I have NEVER been shown anything that was the "inside track" and I will tell you that the mod group is EXCEPTIONALLY good at maintaining their privacy.

I've been involved in my share of...lets cal it "issues". Full disclosure for the sake of openness and honesty. My girlfriend was involved in a breach on this site of her personal information. It pissed me off. I also received a PM from a member of the site that warned me to "keep my bitch in line". That also pissed me off.

In both instances, I did something about it. Hell, for anyone that thinks I have some inside track on anything, my actions in both cases had the EXACT opposite effect of that.

I've also had it brought to my attention that "some" people think Dino and I get special treatment on this site. I can't tell you who "some" people are because no one has ever told me. So much for my insider connections. Let me clear this up as well, unless someone wants to actually bring to my attention an example that I can say, "yes, that appears to be special treatment" then I call bullshit. We have two separate user accounts. We're obviously two different people. I cannot think of anything else. We occasionally thank, and even fail each other's posts, but its based on actual agreement, and not trying to run up the counts for the ability to have a higher number. And I think between us, it might be less than 10. Whoopee!

BUT...what HAS happened, is I've had PM's sent to keep my bitch in line, she's been called a bitch on the forum(multiple times), we've had people giving her the finger behind her back at meets, and there is one other, rather large thing that I'm not getting into that would literally make your skin crawl in disgust. It did mine. That's just the big stuff.

So here is what I'd suggest for anyone that has something to say. Go ahead, and man up, and say it. Send a PM that says, "hey...I find it offensive when..." or "actually, that was really rude" or fucking ANYTHING because here is the big amount of messages we've gotten directly from anyone.

0.

Zero.

Zilch.

So, to finalize here...if you have something to say to one of us, or about one of us...why don't you just say it TO one of us?

I have never "campaigned" to have anyone banned, or points given or anything. I think I've reported a few posts for racist comments. I can't even remember who wrote them. On that subject, I am indiscriminate. My virtue of people complaining about either of us, without actually letting us know that there WERE complaints, or who they were from, I do view that as people campaigning against us.

There are women on this forum that keep their SEX a secret as to avoid undue attention. And I understand why. If you can get through the 50 "get me a sammich" comments, the "pics or GTFO" comments, then you graduate to creepy PM's privately, a smattering of cyber-stalking and at the end of the day, if you give off the impression that "don't ask me, I'm just a girl" isn't a statement you make in math class, then you get to just be a bitch.

Much like racism on this board, the sexism is hostile. I will continue to fight both wherever I can.

TL;DR If you have an issue, then man up and fucking say it.

Oh, I have an idea who may have said something and why....

For the record: the rental expertise you freely share is an outstanding contribution to the community, imo.

You don't read the Police Forum much, do you? Appealing a charge just for the sake of appealing a charge is probably the most common advice dished out there :troll:

As a mostly-disinterested observer of this thread, and someone who's been in your shoes... thank YOU, and all the admin/mod staff, for the work you guys do to keep this place running smoothly (now where is that :brownnose: emoticon?? :suspicious:)

:werd:

I'm offended.

Why? It's totally true you have no life other than Revscene
Spending hours and hours on chat
Talking shit about me behind my back
Making racist and sexist comment.
:troll:
Posted via RS Mobile

Lol. as a "mod' back in the day, I never took it seriously. I admit it was immature of me to do what I did, but I still think it is funny because it created such an uproar over an internet forum. I wouldn't do it again, but I still find it funny how you created a thread to complain about it. As dinosaur stated, it's the internet. It is the internet for a car forum. It isn't life. No one got fired, kicked out of school, or had their reputation ruined. They got banned from posting on an internet car forum. It's not like they can't create another account and start posting/browsing again.

While this thread has had impassioned, well reasoned, and excellently written arguments from all sides of this issue and we've seen a great discussion in here we need to remember that this is the Member's Support forum and posts should be on topic.