REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

dton13 · 02-28-2013, 09:26 PM

Was hoping to get some input from people more familiar with the issue.

We recently had hardwood installed in our basement. We had a couple quotes and both the quotes estimated a floor size of ~1000 sqft. We found that odd because by our own measurements we counted about 850-900 sqft. However, since both quotes came in at around the same range we said sure, maybe we were wrong.

Fast forward to now, after installation has been complete and we're left with surprise, surprise a lot of leftover wood ~170 sqft (5.5 boxes are left)

Are we entitled for a refund or discount? Even with wastage accounted for they over estimated by 17%. We're being charged for the extra wood and workmanship.

The funny thing is we told them that our measurements were much lower than theirs and they remeasured and still arrived at the same number. What's the general rule here?

TIA!

MindBomber · 03-01-2013, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dton13

Was hoping to get some input from people more familiar with the issue.

We recently had hardwood installed in our basement. We had a couple quotes and both the quotes estimated a floor size of ~1000 sqft. We found that odd because by our own measurements we counted about 850-900 sqft. However, since both quotes came in at around the same range we said sure, maybe we were wrong.

Fast forward to now, after installation has been complete and we're left with surprise, surprise a lot of leftover wood ~170 sqft (5.5 boxes are left)

Are we entitled for a refund or discount? Even with wastage accounted for they over estimated by 17%. We're being charged for the extra wood and workmanship.

The funny thing is we told them that our measurements were much lower than theirs and they remeasured and still arrived at the same number. What's the general rule here?

TIA!

In short, no.

10-12% in excess is necessary.

On your project, that amounts to between 87-105 sq/ft.

The case size is 30 sq/ft approx, so the real figure is 90-120 sq/ft or 3-4 cases.

Assuming the safe figure, 120 sq/ft or 4 cases was planned excess necessary to take into consideration.

That means - 50 sq/ft or 1 case was an overestimate in materials.

You're somewhat entitled to a discount on that 1 case.

It would be justified, but some might say trivial if they've done a good job.

As you noted, rounding up a bit is pretty standard.

I won't comment on labour, it's too difficult to speak very accurately on it.

I say that, because the relation between labour and material can vary, they're not always in direct relation to one another.

Soundy · 03-01-2013, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MindBomber

10-12% in excess is necessary.

This. There always needs to be extra to allow for things like... well, for example, if the flooring pieces are 4' long, but your room is 7'2" wide, then it takes two pieces to go across, but there's going to a 10" piece left for every row.

Now assume the boards are 4" wide, and the room is 8' the other way, that's 96 rows... for a total of 96 leftover 10" pieces. Add in things like angles and alcoves, and you end with a lot of leftover bits.

dton13 · 03-01-2013, 06:56 AM

Hey MindBomber, thanks for the reply.

I think I wasn't very clear last night. Our actual footage he estimated was 1000 sq/ft. Ordered footage was 1100 sq/ft to account for the 10% wastage (100 sqft).

However after completion, we're now left with 172 sq/ft on top of the wastage which has already been accounted for.

I agree one or even two boxes in excess would be acceptable (lets say ~70 sq/ft). Now on top of that, we're left with an additional 100 sq/ft for which we're asked to pay labour and materials for.

Gridlock · 03-01-2013, 07:19 AM

On materials...it can happen. Usually, I measure to have one box or so extra. I'd rather have a box left, than have to run out and grab some. I also never buy from places that have a no return policy.

It should be fairly easy to work out with the contractor. Just measure it with him in the room, and say to his face, "so you and I get 900 sq.ft...and yet I get charged for 1000. What up?"

I always charge the install, but buy the waste, meaning if you are buying the material through me, then waste is included in any markup on material, but labour should be the installed floor.

Soundy · 03-01-2013, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridlock

On materials...it can happen. Usually, I measure to have one box or so extra. I'd rather have a box left, than have to run out and grab some. I also never buy from places that have a no return policy.

Here's your key: if your contractor won't refund you on the extra unopened boxes, then the place he bought from should have - get the receipt from him and take them back.

I don't know about other stores, but when we bought our laminate from Home Repo, they told us any unused, unopened boxes could be returned for full refund. (We ended up with only one unopened so figured it's not worth the hassle, it's always good to have some extra for later, in case damage needs to be repaired or something)

dton13 · 03-01-2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridlock

On materials...it can happen. Usually, I measure to have one box or so extra. I'd rather have a box left, than have to run out and grab some. I also never buy from places that have a no return policy.

It should be fairly easy to work out with the contractor. Just measure it with him in the room, and say to his face, "so you and I get 900 sq.ft...and yet I get charged for 1000. What up?"

I always charge the install, but buy the waste, meaning if you are buying the material through me, then waste is included in any markup on material, but labour should be the installed floor.

I appreciate all the input guys.

Ya I was pretty much wondering what industry norms were. Our guy is charging us labour on installed + wastage sq/footage.

Not a big deal by itself, but it is if he's gone over by 3-4 boxes.

Soundy · 03-01-2013, 10:17 AM

Overestimating the amount isn't a big deal, as long as the extra can be returned. Heck, we calculated that we'd need 14 boxes, decided to allow two extras for wastage... and then when we were loading up the cart, went ahead and just rounded up to an even 20, because we knew we could return any unused. Better safe than sorry... better too much than not enough... rather be looking at it than looking for it.

Actually, we're wishing now that we'd bought and kept a couple extra boxes when we redid the dining room 8 years ago: there are some pieces that are trashed, and we don't have enough leftover planks to redo them all... and there's ZERO hope of finding a matching laminate (both grain pattern, and locking edges) with today's stock (in fact, I think the company that made the previous laminate isn't even around anymore).

Soundy · 03-01-2013, 04:30 PM

^Oh, forgot to mention... as it turned out, the toilet in the half-bath overflowed about two days after the living room floor was done... about HALF of the laminate on that level was ruined and had to be replaced. Good thing we had the extra boxes!

Spartacus · 03-01-2013, 04:47 PM

how much did everything cost?

catalin · 03-01-2013, 05:53 PM

There's always someone of waste but if you're paying someone for their skilled work and he's supplying because it's what he thinks he needs then he better admit when he's wrong. I'm sure you didn't agree nor expect to have uninstalled wood laying around, or did you?

Ask him to lower his invoice based on the materials and labor not used. If that doesn't work then don't pay him.

MindBomber · 03-01-2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dton13

Hey MindBomber, thanks for the reply.

I think I wasn't very clear last night. Our actual footage he estimated was 1000 sq/ft. Ordered footage was 1100 sq/ft to account for the 10% wastage (100 sqft).

However after completion, we're now left with 172 sq/ft on top of the wastage which has already been accounted for.

I agree one or even two boxes in excess would be acceptable (lets say ~70 sq/ft). Now on top of that, we're left with an additional 100 sq/ft for which we're asked to pay labour and materials for.

Got it, I agree then.

It's difficult to measure perfectly, I certainly have a margin of accuracy. 100 sq/ft off is excessive, though.

Give him a shout.

E60_M5 · 03-12-2013, 07:13 PM

It all depends on how the deal was done:

1, he came out and gave you a price to complete the job. even if he measured wrong and under estimated, he will have to eat it up.
2, he came out to give u an estimate, and gave you a price on how much it would be a sq/ft. this way you get billed on the actual sq/ft used.

Before everyone starts telling him to get a refund and not pay up, we need to know how the deal was was done in the first place. If the deal was A, be happy he left you spare floorings for spare. If the deal was B, go after him and pay him on the amount of flooring used.

blkgsr · 03-14-2013, 03:59 PM

ordering extra is one thing...5 extra boxes is another, i'd ask for a refund on material and labour

Soundy · 03-14-2013, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkgsr

ordering extra is one thing...5 extra boxes is another, i'd ask for a refund on material and labour

Seconded - a bit extra to account for wastage is fine, but it sounds like this guy WAY over-estimated... or just pulled a number out of his ass.

dton13 · 03-14-2013, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E60_M5

It all depends on how the deal was done:

1, he came out and gave you a price to complete the job. even if he measured wrong and under estimated, he will have to eat it up.
2, he came out to give u an estimate, and gave you a price on how much it would be a sq/ft. this way you get billed on the actual sq/ft used.

Before everyone starts telling him to get a refund and not pay up, we need to know how the deal was was done in the first place. If the deal was A, be happy he left you spare floorings for spare. If the deal was B, go after him and pay him on the amount of flooring used.

B

we were quoted labour and materials on square footage. At $6 for materials and ~$3 for labour, 172 sq/ft is no joke.

I've been super busy but we're in midst of sorting things out, will post updates soon.

nabs · 03-14-2013, 11:31 PM

172 square feet? wow thats enough to do a whole room.

E60_M5 · 03-15-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dton13

B

we were quoted labour and materials on square footage. At $6 for materials and ~$3 for labour, 172 sq/ft is no joke.

I've been super busy but we're in midst of sorting things out, will post updates soon.

Was the flooring material a special order or was it a stocked item? Most of the times if the flooring u purchased is a non stocking item, there is a no return policy on it. So when I have clients that needs flooring done, my flooring guys just give them straight up a "finished" price