REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events

Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-03-2013, 03:13 PM   #1
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: n zone
Posts: 2,679
Thanked 1,924 Times in 611 Posts
Education and Debt: Scandinavian vs. United States Models



hopefully this will spark some interesting debates. i am kinda on the fence as i dont believe tuition should be 100% free, but the pic raises some good points

and americas justice system is beyond fucked
Advertisement

Last edited by Sid Vicious; 04-03-2013 at 03:22 PM.
Sid Vicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 03:37 PM   #2
Zionism gets my shell hard and slimy
 
snails's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: in a shell
Posts: 2,580
Thanked 5,905 Times in 1,119 Posts
when i injured my shoulder last year i was out of work for about 3 months

I had alot of free time so i watched alot of documentaries and researched them afterwards, a few of them were about education in the states, for-profit, public, all that stuff. I was amazed by how many people spent 10's of thousands of dollars for an education that got them no further in life, they are selling education.. hence "for profit"

eventually I got into documentaries about loans, student loans, visas and stuff like that and I was further disgusted by the efforts made to put these students in the hole so companies could feed of the interest, and debt these people would get themselves into, there was one point that got to me

a non working student can obtain a visa/mastercard EASIER than a working person with fewer debts, seems the whole system over there is to bury their people to then live off their debts
snails is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 03:50 PM   #3
I STILL don't get it
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: van
Posts: 499
Thanked 174 Times in 74 Posts
I think the USA has it right. Americans are smart enough to realize that their population academic abilities are normally distributed.
noventa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 03:58 PM   #4
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Ludepower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,362
Thanked 583 Times in 176 Posts
errrmerica..fuck yeaa!
Ludepower is online now   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 04:16 PM   #5
My homepage has been set to RS
 
tool001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: vancouver
Posts: 2,214
Thanked 810 Times in 274 Posts
capitalism


... isn't Canada heading that way also..
tool001 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 04:38 PM   #6
I am grateful grapefruit
 
gars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,094
Thanked 831 Times in 392 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tool001 View Post
capitalism


... isn't Canada heading that way also..
Our education is still affordable enough. I met a girl in Portland who was lucky enough to have dual citizenship, and that she was moving to Vancouver in 6 months to attend UBC. She told me it was more expensive to attend a community college in Portland than it was to attend UBC. It's kind of a no-brainer.
__________________
Proud member of GRAPE Great Revscene Action Photographers Enthusiasts
gars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 05:42 PM   #7
RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
 
GabAlmighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Yellowknife NWT
Posts: 4,876
Thanked 3,210 Times in 1,053 Posts
Ever tried becoming a pilot? Shit's expensive and I get to pay for it allllll by myself, mostly.
__________________
'16 Ram 1500
'85 Corolla
GabAlmighty is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-03-2013, 09:03 PM   #8
I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
 
westopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: vancouver
Posts: 7,164
Thanked 18,397 Times in 3,972 Posts
The price of education is a huge factor in the increasing wealth gap in North american (more so american than canadian, but still here as well) combined with a social pressure to "have it all" by a certain age. Kids coming from poor to middle class homes are feeling the increased pressure to keep up appearances and it makes them more likely to go straight into a decent paying job so they can keep up with what the internet tells them they need. Its easy for an 18 year old kid to come out of school and think "oh fuck, making 3k a month can buy me lots of shit" because the understanding of the adult expenses haven't hit yet, like a trip to the dentist for example. While the richer kids can have all these luxuries without needing a job to pay for it, which allows them to hop into whichever university program their parents pay them to take. Working a full time job to pay for school or ending up in drastic student loan debt prevents the luxury of time for people to develop their potential and discover a path to their success, and forces them into the quickest path of being able to pay the bills they have racked up.

If school was free, or much more publicly funded, it would allow some of the people that were born in to poverty, or just above, to claw their way out, at a much more reasonable pace. Of course restrictions I imagine would be in place, to make sure students weren't wasting taxpayer money and time, but as it stands, only the rich and INCREDIBLY driven can make their way through the highest quality education institutions. We all know someone who is incredibly intelligent, and living much below their potential from a career perspective because instead of being able to go to school, they had to climb out of a life that they were born into by getting a the first 12 dollar an hour job to be able to afford to eat and pay rent. That being said, materialism is as much of a perpetrator of this problem, but clearly its easier to change the direction of spending, than changing the ailment of basically all of industrialized societies.

Last edited by westopher; 04-03-2013 at 09:46 PM.
westopher is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-03-2013, 09:18 PM   #9
Orgasm Donor & Alatar owned my ass twice!
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 16,337
Thanked 5,611 Times in 2,300 Posts
ive spoken to ppl that attended professional programs in the nordic countries

goddamn if only I knew how to speak their language and have their citizenship...i'd move there in a heartbeat as a student.

I mean even if you are the average taxpayer there...how bad can it really be compared to Canada. IIRC it's similar % to those in the higher incom tax bracket of Canadians.
__________________
My BST Feedback
twitchyzero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 09:39 PM   #10
OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
 
punkwax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South Surrey
Posts: 5,295
Thanked 4,192 Times in 1,316 Posts
It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.
__________________
If you drive like an asshole, you probably are one.
punkwax is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 09:40 PM   #11
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: not vancouver
Posts: 2,647
Thanked 1,938 Times in 765 Posts
It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries
4444 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 09:49 PM   #12
Cant Stop Modding Fat Cars w/ Cheap Pasts!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 23,045
Thanked 9,234 Times in 3,293 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4444 View Post
It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries
"hur hur hurr dat dere some commie talk! aint no kneed to listen to propganda! fuck yea amerika!!!"
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 09:53 PM   #13
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: n zone
Posts: 2,679
Thanked 1,924 Times in 611 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodnarb View Post
It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.
lol, considering america is easily the most influential country in the world it doesnt matter where you move to - you will be affected in some way

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4444 View Post
It is from an occupy Wall Street site, so take that info gram with a grain of salt, not saying its not true from a high level, but we don't know everything about how it's paid for in the Scandinavian countries
obviously it's not an objective picture, but its just information to consider. no country/political system is perfect
Sid Vicious is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-03-2013, 10:10 PM   #14
I Will not Admit my Addiction to RS
 
meowjinboo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 552
Thanked 269 Times in 121 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by westopher View Post
The price of education is a huge factor in the increasing wealth gap in North american (more so american than canadian, but still here as well) combined with a social pressure to "have it all" by a certain age. Kids coming from poor to middle class homes are feeling the increased pressure to keep up appearances and it makes them more likely to go straight into a decent paying job so they can keep up with what the internet tells them they need. Its easy for an 18 year old kid to come out of school and think "oh fuck, making 3k a month can buy me lots of shit" because the understanding of the adult expenses haven't hit yet, like a trip to the dentist for example. While the richer kids can have all these luxuries without needing a job to pay for it, which allows them to hop into whichever university program their parents pay them to take. Working a full time job to pay for school or ending up in drastic student loan debt prevents the luxury of time for people to develop their potential and discover a path to their success, and forces them into the quickest path of being able to pay the bills they have racked up.

If school was free, or much more publicly funded, it would allow some of the people that were born in to poverty, or just above, to claw their way out, at a much more reasonable pace. Of course restrictions I imagine would be in place, to make sure students weren't wasting taxpayer money and time, but as it stands, only the rich and INCREDIBLY driven can make their way through the highest quality education institutions. We all know someone who is incredibly intelligent, and living much below their potential from a career perspective because instead of being able to go to school, they had to climb out of a life that they were born into by getting a the first 12 dollar an hour job to be able to afford to eat and pay rent. That being said, materialism is as much of a perpetrator of this problem, but clearly its easier to change the direction of spending, than changing the ailment of basically all of industrialized societies.
one of the worst mistakes I ever made was hanging out with people who had alot of money and letting them influence me.
meowjinboo is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-03-2013, 10:15 PM   #15
boot boot car
 
PiuYi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,054
Thanked 1,284 Times in 536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by snails View Post
eventually I got into documentaries about loans, student loans, visas and stuff like that and I was further disgusted by the efforts made to put these students in the hole so companies could feed of the interest, and debt these people would get themselves into, there was one point that got to me

a non working student can obtain a visa/mastercard EASIER than a working person with fewer debts, seems the whole system over there is to bury their people to then live off their debts
modern day slavery is what it is... the indebted lower class work tirelessly just to stay afloat, while the upper class get richer from self-perpetuating wealth
PiuYi is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 10:17 PM   #16
Need to Seek Professional Help
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: .
Posts: 1,018
Thanked 1,029 Times in 254 Posts
Nordic countries are able to do this because, and ONLY because of extremely high taxes (IIRC an M3 would be close to $300,000USD) AND because they happen to be oil rich nations. Unfortunately this is not the case for most of the world and therefore this is not a model that could be applied to most countries. BTW, the University of Oslo is free to any student regardless of citizenship.

Germany also provides free education to a doctorate level, but only students with high GPA a strong aptitude in their particular areas of focus would be able to take advantage of this education system.
bananana is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 10:20 PM   #17
Cant Stop Modding Fat Cars w/ Cheap Pasts!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 23,045
Thanked 9,234 Times in 3,293 Posts
there are a lot of european universities which also offer the free education to international students, as long as you can get in


as for income/sales/corporate tax rates check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 10:42 PM   #18
Need to Seek Professional Help
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: .
Posts: 1,018
Thanked 1,029 Times in 254 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed View Post
as for income/sales/corporate tax rates check out List of countries by tax rates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't understand where your fail comes from. I failed one of your posts due to your typical verbal diarrhea and it's lack of relevancy to the thread. A massive proportion of GDP in Nordic countries from from oil. Their system is absolutely fantastic, but as I said before, it would not be possible to replicate in other countries without such resources.

Taxes in general are EXTREMELY high in Nordic countries. This is a fact - Your Wikipedia source only lists 3 specific variations of the tax system. A massive VAT and other luxury taxes are typical of the entire region and are used to support this system.

From Wikipedia:

"Today, Norway ranks as the second wealthiest country in the world in monetary value, with the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation... Continued oil and gas exports coupled with a healthy economy and substantial accumulated wealth lead to a conclusion that Norway will remain among the richest countries in the world in the foreseeable future."

"Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to almost 50% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of the GDP.[81] Norway is the fifth largest oil exporter and third largest gas exporter in the world, but it is not a member of OPEC. To reduce overheating in the economy from oil revenues and minimize uncertainty from volatility in oil price, and to provide a cushion for the effect of aging of the population, the Norwegian government in 1995 established the sovereign wealth fund ("Government Pension Fund Global"), which would be funded with oil revenues, including taxes, dividends, sales revenues and licensing fees."
bananana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 10:46 PM   #19
I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
 
westopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: vancouver
Posts: 7,164
Thanked 18,397 Times in 3,972 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodnarb View Post
It's called diversity.

Not everywhere is the same. You prefer another country's way of life? Move there. 95%+ of your ancestors did.
Thats a pretty passive mentality to have. Theres nothing saying you shouldn't try to improve the country you live in, and you can certainly be happy with the country you live in and not be happy with every aspect of it.
westopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 11:25 PM   #20
Cant Stop Modding Fat Cars w/ Cheap Pasts!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 23,045
Thanked 9,234 Times in 3,293 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bananana View Post
I don't understand where your fail comes from. I failed one of your posts due to your typical verbal diarrhea and it's lack of relevancy to the thread.
welcome to RS... & if you fail to see the relevance that's your problem

"extremely high taxes" which isn't true at least from a Canadian perspective its higher in some lower in others higher in sales but lower in income, they're comparable; oil rich, which isn't true except for Denmark and Norway
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 04-03-2013, 11:28 PM   #21
Banned By Establishment
 
Gridlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New West
Posts: 3,998
Thanked 2,982 Times in 1,135 Posts
We'll get to the whole free education bit shortly, but here's something to consider.

Debt load on students.

Let's call it here and now. The "Corporations are people" crowd stateside have maybe not sold the entire country to corporations in the US, but their voice is heard by a majority of government. There is less capitalism in the states, and its now corporatism. How much of which is open for debate.

I believe there is a desire to have a workforce that is indebted to the company for which they work. That employee stays loyal, and works hard, because he needs: to make his phat ass student loan payments that can't be discharged in bankruptcy(aka it follows you like herpes) needs his medical insurance in case he gets a $50k paper cut and so on.

Quite easily, the US could make a ton of improvements for everyone. And it would probably work out. BUUUUT.

The Democrats under Obama took a republican model of health care, applied it nationally to create a system where the private insurance companies are handed 10's of 1000's of new clients at market rates, and has been called everything from a terrorist to a muslim to a socialist to my favorite 'un-american' for 5 years since.

Yes, there is a tax payer subsidized component.

My point is, asking for people to change the education model to a very socialist system is a stretch in the largest amount, especially when the US has so much work to do on the front of for profit health care. It's not in the American DNA to have a socialist system. They want the bare minimum to be contributed to anyone that isn't them, until they need it, then they want it all. That's everyone from the Obamaphone woman to bankers, unfortunately.
Gridlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 11:30 PM   #22
Banned By Establishment
 
Gridlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New West
Posts: 3,998
Thanked 2,982 Times in 1,135 Posts
And notice how its young people in their 20's that want this great socialist utopia? They have nothing, so lets have "them" pay for it. Working out wunderbar in Europe right now. Yay socialism!

Once you make some money in your 30's, we welcome them to the club...as Conservatives.
Gridlock is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-03-2013, 11:41 PM   #23
I Will not Admit my Addiction to RS
 
meowjinboo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 552
Thanked 269 Times in 121 Posts
that's because when people have money they view those that don't have it as subhumans.

Just let the plebs fight with themselves. All the anti-union speak on this forum from people who think they have made it attacking people who make +/- 20% then their fellow man.
meowjinboo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 01:07 AM   #24
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: n zone
Posts: 2,679
Thanked 1,924 Times in 611 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridlock View Post
And notice how its young people in their 20' that want this great socialist utopia? They have nothing, so lets have "them" pay for it. Working out wunderbar in Europe right now. Yay socialism!

Once you make some money in your 30's, we welcome them to the club...as Conservatives.
This post is going full retard. You dont have to be of any political ideology to see how fucked up some aspects of the us govt is. For example a
mere 5% cut in military spending is an extra 35 billion to play with.
Usa has one of the highest incarceration per capita rates in the world
Posted via RS Mobile
Sid Vicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 03:08 AM   #25
Where's my RS Christmas Lobster?!
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Richmond
Posts: 846
Thanked 404 Times in 178 Posts
A few people have brought up the topic of higher taxation in the Nordic countries compared to other western states. If anyone is the least bit interested in that, I highly suggest reading this report:

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sit...f_Taxation.pdf
It's not terribly long.

By exploring the relation between taxation and different measures of social well-being, some interesting conclusions are drawn.
This report came after the Harper government's announcement of the 2006 Budget in its first year when GST and income tax cuts were announced, setting the trend for continued cuts in the years following.


We've heard plenty about the successful education systems in the Nordic region in the news and arguments assessing the feasibility of implementing it on some scale in Canada. While it does sound promising, I can't ignore the hurdles faced when copying a system from one country and transplanting it into another, especially a system that was developed in social setting far different from ours. Unfortunately not quite as simple as USB plug-and-play.
BillyBishop is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net