Fallout over HootSuite's practice of hiring unpaid interns

[Geoc]

Cool thing about tech and creative design industries is that there is more than one way to sell yourself.

You can work on personal projects to buff your portfolio, learn the latest stuff, in a way you can show your own skill, and merit without hammering your way from the bottom barrel job positions.

I can't see how a unpaid internship can even exist in such an industry.

[ForbiddenX]

I believe it was mostly marketing / social media positions that were the internships? Not 100% sure though.

I agree with that though, there is so much more than you can do than just a traditional resume and work experience.

[JKam]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

Its not a dumb reaaon but rather a tough reality. That reality being that most marketing programs teach only theory and old school marketing instead of stuff people actually practice nowdays
Posted via RS Mobile

I disagree somewhat. It depends on the school you're taking but at BCIT they have an internship program as part of the curriculum. I'd say 80% of what you learn is practical knowledge you'd use. I know the SFU counterpart is purely theory though.

The reality is that companies are taking advantage of a 3-6 month period as a free interview process, regardless of your education. They should take the risk, just like every other company, and make use of a probationary period. We're talking about entry level postions, you're supposed to be fresh out of school or very junior when you're applying to these positions.

[Soundy]

News1130 ‏@News1130radio 4h
Attn journalism/broadcast students: 4 interns to be selected to join us in the newsroom for the summer. Apply online: http://roge.rs/3qsiPY

------------------->

News1130 Radio has an exciting opportunity for current or recently graduated Broadcast Journalism students to gain invaluable experience in Western Canada's largest radio newsroom. As an unpaid intern with News1130 (in either news or sports), you will...

[drunkrussian]

Originally Posted by JKam

I disagree somewhat. It depends on the school you're taking but at BCIT they have an internship program as part of the curriculum. I'd say 80% of what you learn is practical knowledge you'd use. I know the SFU counterpart is purely theory though.

The reality is that companies are taking advantage of a 3-6 month period as a free interview process, regardless of your education. They should take the risk, just like every other company, and make use of a probationary period. We're talking about entry level postions, you're supposed to be fresh out of school or very junior when you're applying to these positions.

Agreed bcit actually has Internet marketing programs. However i have looked those over and they are better than nothing but still extremely general. Companies need experience because only a few people know what they're doing and its often either get someone who has done it or outsource to an agency
Posted via RS Mobile

[JKam]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

Companies need experience because only a few people know what they're doing and its often either get someone who has done it or outsource to an agency
Posted via RS Mobile

That's why companies need marketing managers and hire junior people to be coordinators. Yes you need some experience but not for entry/junior level positions. You don't need a seasoned vet to execute your marketing efforts. You need the vet to tell the junior what tasks to do.

Agencies shouldn't be using interns at all. They have people on the roster who have tons of experience. The juniors should be learning from the senior positions and should be getting paid.

[Sweet2L]

Originally Posted by drunkrussian

Its not a dumb reaaon but rather a tough reality. That reality being that most marketing programs teach only theory and old school marketing instead of stuff people actually practice nowdays
Posted via RS Mobile

My manager was saying that instructors are still teaching stuff that she learned in marketing class 20 years ago. They can't/aren't keeping up with the modern landscape that keeps changing every day, especially with things like technology and social media.

[Graeme S]

Schools' failures do not excuse what is essentially an abuse of the workforce.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but minimum wage exists as a 'minimum' so that people can always be compensated for their work no matter how shitty. I'm pretty sure proportionally McDonald's gets more applications per position than some place like HootSuite. What would happen if McDick's tried to say "Oh, well, school doesn't prepare people adequately for the workplace, so they need 3 months' internship in order to prepare them for the difference between work and school."

Given the "can't fail" attitudes of a tonne of schools these days, it would not be unjustified in claiming that. Yet it is considered "acceptable" here. The best way to determine fairness is by flipping something on its head and seeing if the fairness still applies.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by Sweet2L

My manager was saying that instructors are still teaching stuff that she learned in marketing class 20 years ago. They can't/aren't keeping up with the modern landscape that keeps changing every day, especially with things like technology and social media.

Yes.

And thank christ.

The techniques change. Computers and social fucking media(I hate buzzwords) and all the rest all change. Mobile phones! Yeah..all new.

The fundamentals are the same for a lot of this shit. If you go to school and were to come out with a degree in marketing, focused on social media...do you know what your degree is worth in 6 months? A year? Fucking nothing.

We need to step back a bit from where we are going on education. And this totally relates to Hootsuite.

We are now telling kids in High School, no choice, you NEED to go to university(**there is one exception) so we send them off to UBC/Kwantlen/SFU/Douglas/BCIT/UNBC more? Fuck it, rack up debt. It's been awhile since I went to school, but am I fair in saying $5000 tuition? $1200+ books? PLUS living expenses. PER YEAR. x5.

And thats Canadian-we're still somewhat practical on PostSec costs-University.

So you graduate in the hole, and go to a company like hootsuite, for them to tell you it's still not enough?

Yeah, I know it happens in the states. Great for them. There is very little I'd like to emulate from the states.

As a private company...feel fucking free to say that I don't have enough experience as other candidates, or I didn't do as well in school as other candidates or you don't like my fucking neck tie...but you should, somewhere in your company be able to come up with $10/hr to pay a guy starting ground level in your company if you want him there 40 hours+ a week.

**we are FINALLY starting to promote the trades, only AFTER we finished telling every tom dick and julie to go to school for computers, and ran out of people that knew how to weld.

[BurnoutBinLaden]

That kind of sentiment worries me. I think someone with the aptitude for academic rigor, motivation and goals can go for university if he chooses.

That being said, not everyone is cut out for university. You need to look inside yourself to see if it's the right choice for you. Unfortunately, and I see this in immigrant communities such as my own A LOT, it's not the kid's choice to make.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Schools' failures do not excuse what is essentially an abuse of the workforce.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but minimum wage exists as a 'minimum' so that people can always be compensated for their work no matter how shitty. I'm pretty sure proportionally McDonald's gets more applications per position than some place like HootSuite. What would happen if McDick's tried to say "Oh, well, school doesn't prepare people adequately for the workplace, so they need 3 months' internship in order to prepare them for the difference between work and school."

Given the "can't fail" attitudes of a tonne of schools these days, it would not be unjustified in claiming that. Yet it is considered "acceptable" here. The best way to determine fairness is by flipping something on its head and seeing if the fairness still applies.

Unpaid internship is a different beast than a minimum-wage job, though. Minimum wage is in place to ensure that people need a job to earn a living, don't have that need abused. When someone takes such a job, they do so knowing that they WILL be making a certain minimum amount.

When you accept an unpaid internship - heck, if you even go looking for an unpaid internship in the first place - you're doing so KNOWING that there's no pay involved, that you're doing it for the experience, for the networking, or for whatever other personal reason you have; presumably you have other means for getting by. There's typically NO guarantee that it will lead to work with the company you're interning with, yet people intern anyway; nobody holds a gun to their heads.

[Graeme S]

Oh, I understand the distinction. I just personally feel as though the distinction shouldn't exist. In my last job there was plenty of things my boss would ask me to do. I would always say "just put it in writing". Then, lo and behold, it would get done without me. And not to the standard I would have liked to have seen it--why? Because it was done by someone else for free, because I wouldn't.

The issue I have specifically here though is that it is now nigh-impossible to get a job without experience. See below:


Now, admittedly people who come in to the workplace with experience are great and wonderful and make life easier. But most of the jobs that are being posted are requiring experience for a position that essentially requires none. I had this same conversation with some new friends a week or so ago, and I'll make the same point here as there: Governments and Cities are now essentially the only organizations that post honest and truthful requirements about what is actually necessary for the job.

Graduated high school? You can read? You can remember the rules? Great! Welcome aboard!

And yes, I am aware that corporations are able to do whatever they want in order to ensure that they get "the highest quality talent" and that it's not the fault of any single company "it's just the way things are done" and all that shit. Great. Hooray. Whoopty do. The issue is that requirement inflation is getting as bad as grade inflation. We naturally expect everything to get higher as time goes on. I'm pretty sure if you looked at averages in Universities and High Schools over the last three decades marks have slowly floated upwards. Why? Sure as hell not because students are getting smarter, I'll give you that.

It's because over time "what's good enough" isn't. And so we move it up a bit. And a bit more. I remember looking for a job before I scored my teaching position. And I remember looking for a job when I was looking to leave it. Circa '05 and '12. I was looking for exactly the same kind of job in each case (office admin). And wouldn't you know it...in '05, it was "6 months or more experience an asset". And in '12, it was "Minimum 2-3 years experience required."

I'm sorry, was there a paradigm shift in the last 7 years? Did the entire universe just get more complex and crazy? Has the job title or definition changed?

No. What's happened is companies have tightened their belts so much that only those who are either the best of the best or the best of the bullshitters can get in and do anything. And that we are now actively admitting that our education system is completely inadequate at instructing students at what they do.

Not only are we telling students they need to spend 4-5 years at University after graduating from high school, we are then telling them that they need to work for free for months or years afterwards and then they'll qualify for the same jobs that someone with a highschool education has done for the past 30 years.

Mail clerk anyone?


I understand that this is a systemic issue and that there's no easy solution (and possibly no solution at all). But in my opinion the unpaid internship is something that needs to go the way of the dinosaur (no offence, m'dear). In this day and age it's just another method of avoiding giving people jobs and further enhancing the economy.


Apologies for the meandering manner in which this post was made--I got all ranty and lost track a couple times.

[JKam]

you guys are debating over two completely different issues.

No one is saying the applicants don't know that they aren't going to get paid for an unpaid internship. Greame is saying that companies are, collectively, making entry level jobs impossible to get without any prior experience. The predominant way to get this experience is to intern, doing the EXACT same thing at that entry level job.

[Soundy]

amyjudd @amyjudd
#HootSuite gives interns back pay, ends controversial practice of unpaid internships - ow.ly/ka1CW

[Anjew]

Originally Posted by Soundy

amyjudd @amyjudd
#HootSuite gives interns back pay, ends controversial practice of unpaid internships - ow.ly/ka1CW

they only did that after people threw up a stink just like rbc. Our labour laws needs some serious reformation to adapt to the globalized economy we live in....

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Anjew

they only did that after people threw up a stink just like rbc. Our labour laws needs some serious reformation to adapt to the globalized economy we live in....

Why would compnay change when they can away with it and people are lining up to work for free?

Off topic: I am looking into a career change but given than I have to start form the buttom and basically get paid peanuts for the next few years VS I am making decent money now is hard to switch. Still debating though.

[Graeme S]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Why would compnay change when they can away with it and people are lining up to work for free?

Because what they were doing was literally illegal. And not that teenaged girl 'literally'. The literally kind of literally.

From the article Soundy posted:

The practice of having interns work for free, although widely touted as way to gain experience and help build a resume, actually amounts to unpaid labour under BC’s Employment Standards Act and regulations.

Under the act, a “practicum,” which is part of a formal education process and not considered to be work is different from an “internship.”

Here are the definitions of the two according to the Interpretation Guidelines Manual for the Act and its regulations:

A “practicum” is part of a formal education process for students enrolled in a public or private post-secondary institution that involves the supervised practical application of previously classroom taught theory related to course study. The students are usually engaged in studies to obtain a degree so as to pursue a career in education, medicine, or engineering. A practicum is “hands-on” training that is required by the curriculum, and will result in a certificate or diploma. It is not considered to be “work” for the purposes of the Act.

An “internship” is on-the-job training offered by an employer to provide a person with practical experience. Often internships are offered to persons who have completed a diploma or degree program and are seeking employment. Completing an internship does not itself result in an academic certificate or diploma. If the duties performed by interns fall within the definition of “work” contained in the Act, the intern falls within the definition of “employee”, and the agency using the services of an intern falls within the definition of “employer”, internships will be considered “work” for the purposes of the Act.

And the act is unequivocal on the issue of paying for work.

Time spent by an employee performing labour or service for an employer is time worked and time for which wages are payable.

Translation: If you're earning credits, it's a practicum and you can weasel your way off the hook. If you're doing work that is the same type of work being done by employees then you're making people work for free which is illegal.


I really hope other interns at other companies are paying attention.

[BurnoutBinLaden]

It's fucking insane how this is legal in the US. It's tantamount to slavery, if in a lesser form.

[Soundy]

...except slavery is something you're forced into; internship is something you do by choice.

So here's a question: what's the difference between internship and volunteering? Both are something you enter into willingly, knowing in advance that it's unpaid... does this trend mean that soon I'll be able to insist on being paid for my volunteer work?

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Because what they were doing was literally illegal. And not that teenaged girl 'literally'. The literally kind of literally.

From the article Soundy posted:


Translation: If you're earning credits, it's a practicum and you can weasel your way off the hook. If you're doing work that is the same type of work being done by employees then you're making people work for free which is illegal.


I really hope other interns at other companies are paying attention.

I guess we are going off topic for a bit, but as long as people are willing to work peanuts or nothing compnay will try this shit, is nothing personal I mean why pay someone whey the compnay can hire "Intern" or pass omeone way below market to have someone do the work.

Currently I am in tech support got my Secuirty +, Network+, CCNA and to be honest I am sure if I want to go to the netowrking route. So many of these jobs are being outsource and basically I am competing with people who have years and years of experience for the same job.

As someone have mention earlier programming is also not very feasible here as well since companies hire code monkey from else where to write codes (I am pretty sure my compnay does this as well).

Not much future I see in the Computing Industires in Vancouver either than HTML5, web designs, apps (very popular and in high demand these days). Gone are the days where you finish a Computer Science degree and expect to make 6figures.

I am still on the line what I should study or do at this point. But this is for another topic.