REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

exploration03 · 06-08-2013, 06:25 PM

Hmm where to start. Strata..we all hate it one way or another. In my case, didn't really think it was too bad since rules and laws make for a better organized living.

Me and my wife purchased our first townhouse a year ago, everythings dandy until a few months ago and my Son got really sick. Fast forward he requires medical supervision all the time. We decide to move back to Toronto and get assistance from retired parents to take care of our Son as we continue to work. Daycare here is equivalent to a second mortgage. But what happens with our house? Rent it.

We were told maximum amount of units have been reached and we're on the wait list which doesn't change in years. We found a good renter and we feel they will be able to take care of our home. Anyway, due to our situation we applied for exemption on the grounds of hardship. Loss of income as we both quit jobs to start new in Toronto. Applications handed with as much supporting documents as we can include. This was March 25. Same day Strata Manager acknowledges my application and says decision will be done in May as April meeting is for something else. I thought to myself that's such a long time but couldn't argue back.

Weeks pass by and I decided to look into it further. I found BC Strata Act Law online which pretty much says all the same condition we get from the Strata package but under Rental exemptions it clearly stated exemptions are allowed if strata does not have a decision after 2 weeks of receiving the application. In the case this is broken, exemption is automatically allowed and unit can be rented. I then immediately emailed the agent and said it's been 3 weeks and referred him to the act. I indicated I'd like to get an answer within next 2 weeks. No reply. Another email I sent saying pls follow up. No reply. THIRD email a few weeks later saying if I don't get a follow up then I assume you agree with our rental exemption. Still no reply and this was mid May.

I decided to resume the rental procedure with our potential renters and they know the full situation and agreed to move in July 1st. Today we finally received the Minutes for May stating we've been declined for inadequate proof! I called but obviously strata has better things to do on the weekend than deal with this. I plan to speak with them Monday but my question is WHAT CAN I DO? I really want to rent out place and get moving to Toronto but I'd like to this in a more civil manner. I prefer not to get a lawyer involved but it's looking like it may be necessary.

Btw this is the links I'm referring to: http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/98043_00

Part 8 - Rentals, section (144)

My second question is I'm sure Strata knows about this exemption rule but why would they break it intentionally and ignore me I can't see a corporation like that missing a pretty standard rule as I'm sure they deal with this enough times. I feel like there's something I'm overlooking. I really hate how they dealt with this given our situation and would like to fight this and to me it's so clear and exemption is permitted. Has anyone else been or known anyone else in this situation? Any help or advise or even educated opinions would help. I'm going crazy thinking of this all the time.

Thanks guys!
Posted via RS Mobile

exploration03 · 06-08-2013, 06:30 PM

To follow up because of the huge delay we had to result in hiring a private caretaker and keep our jobs but now we're in a deep per hole as we can not afford to keep doing this as it is expensive. We would have to result in some sort of second job or overtime or something. I really don't feel this is fair as it clearly states as well Strata can not unreasonably deny exemption of unit.
Posted via RS Mobile

Energy · 06-08-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

144 Exemption from rental restriction bylaw
(1) An owner may apply to the strata corporation for an exemption from a bylaw that prohibits or limits rentals on the grounds that the bylaw causes hardship to the owner.
(2) The application must be in writing and must state

(a) the reason the owner thinks an exemption should be made, and
(b) whether the owner wishes a hearing.

(3) If the owner wishes a hearing, the strata corporation must hear the owner or the owner's agent within 4 weeks after the date the application is given to the strata corporation.
(4) An exemption is allowed if

(a) the strata corporation does not give its decision in writing to the owner,
(i) if a hearing is held, within one week after the hearing, or
(ii) if no hearing is requested, within 2 weeks after the application is given to the strata corporation, or
(b) the owner requests a hearing under subsection (2) (b) and the strata corporation does not hold a hearing within 4 weeks after the date the application is given to the strata corporation.

(6) The strata corporation must not unreasonably refuse to grant an exemption.

Did you show them this part? What did they say?

Get legal advice.

Eff-1 · 06-08-2013, 09:34 PM

It sounds like your property manager is the issue. It's his/her responsibility to know the strata laws and advise the council accordingly (most of the time, council is made up of people who don't know the laws any more than you or I). It's also his/her responsibility to reply back to your messages in a reasonable amount of time. What I'd do is send the the property manager another email advising that you'll be attending the next meeting and he should put your business on the agenda for discussion. Reason is that your issue can't be ignored when you are there in person (worked for me in the past). I'd also suggest getting a lawyer at this point. A letter from your lawyer to the council will certainly get their attention. Good luck and hope your son gets better.

dinosaur · 06-08-2013, 09:43 PM

What property management company is this?? It doesn't seem you have time to dick around with all of this...apart from calling the company office every 10 mins, phoning a lawyer seems to be the way to go.

I am sorry to hear about your son and all this hardship...I hope this resolves fast

6793026 · 06-09-2013, 05:30 AM

there's nothing you can do right now. I would just let it go. IF they start sending you a fine, then deal with it then. for now, they declined it but heck, you have already rented it out now right.

just let it be.

Soundy · 06-09-2013, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaur

What property management company is this?? It doesn't seem you have time to dick around with all of this...apart from

I'd like to know too - my aunt is a property manager with one of the local companies, I could see if she has any insight, but I need to make sure first that it's not HER company

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 08:18 AM

Hugh and McKinnon strata realty. I spoke with Hugh himself about this. I've never dealt with lawyers but I know it's expensive. I plan to proceed 2 ways.
1. Let it be. If I receive a notice about breaking the law then I can fight it
2. Get a lawyer now and have them send a letter

I prefer the first option as it gives me time to take care of other business but I know I'll have to deal with it later eventually. I also want to give our tenants the peace of mind they won't be evicted due to this. I'm torn
Posted via RS Mobile

hopalong · 06-09-2013, 08:41 AM

If you have all your dealings with the property manager documented (emails and response to said emails) then you've done your part and the manager hasn't done their job. Rent it out and if you do get fined then fight it. Show them the email correspondence between you and the propert manager and the bylaw exemption 144.

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 08:47 AM

I absolutely do have all the dealings. Emails and even printed them out with dates. All the documents I submitted are also filed and copied. What pissed me off the most is when I asked him initially, why does it take so long for a reply. He said "That's strata living"

I was like. Wow. Way to really promote your leadership. That sticked with me and I have an urge to let him know not all owners will agree. Although in confident I can get an exemption due to this situation it also states in the Act that an exemption given by Strata may be for a LIMITED time. Does anyone know any more details just about how limited that means?

Posted via RS Mobile

Energy · 06-09-2013, 09:00 AM

Yeah, the strata property act is pretty clear and a bylaw cannot vary s.144.

You should be ok if you did everything properly but if you want to be extra sure then get actual legal advice. It'll help you stop worrying about this all the time. Show the strata people that they can't get away with not doing their jobs.

hopalong · 06-09-2013, 12:00 PM

Don't rely on the strata council. Trust me, I'm one of the council members in my townhome complex. 6 out of the 8 members just dont give a fuck about anybody else's interest except their own.

Strata only has the authority to fine you, but if you have all the documentation then you can fight the fines. Plus they can't even collect the fine unless youre selling your unit. Gl

dinosaur · 06-09-2013, 01:00 PM

Yeah, stay away from the council themselves...deal directly with the property management company.

Usually when they have an exemption for limited time, they mean 12 months. I have seen people get exemptions while trying to sell their place...they are allowed to rent it out if they can show financial hardship as long as they keep accepting offers and reject nothing that is reasonable for 12 months. After 12 months they can re-apply if necessary.

Applying for a rental exemption is not an uncommon practice and I have seen them approved for much less than your reasoning.

There must be more to the story....what is your relationship with the voting members? Were the documents you submitted not given to everyone? Something isn't adding up.

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 03:12 PM

We honestly don't have a relationship with any of the council members. Haha except one as they're unit is in front of ours and we're good. Our son are the same age and we've never really met the rest.

I don't know how the voting occurred. Everything was all done behind the scenes until we received our minutes stating yesterday saying discussion about an owner applying for rental on grounds of hardship and not approved at this time as proof is inadequate. The strata wants a full bank history and payments and pretty much my families financial state. I however mentioned regardless our financial state the point is we won't have any income as we will be leaving our jobs.

Any how I clarified that with Hugh and he stopped responding to my emails completely. I'm at a loss and just waited and waited. We don't hsve any outstanding fines or any current disputes. We've been really good honestly. I just honestly think he's taking advantage of his authority thinking we'll just bend over and agree to everything.
Posted via RS Mobile

Eff-1 · 06-09-2013, 03:24 PM

An initial meeting with a lawyer and a follow up letter may cost you anywhere from $300 - $500. It's expensive but lawyers are a necessary evil. If it means this gets taken care of sooner rather than later and allows you to move on with your life, that's money well spent, especially in the grand scheme of things.

dinosaur · 06-09-2013, 03:29 PM

rent it out, pay the fines (they wont be much in comparison to your loss if you don't-i was fined once for something...it was, like, $200), pack your shit, and leave for Ontario.

they are clearly acting irrational. stratas have a hard enough time getting rid of heroin addict operating a prostitute ring out of their unit so they don't have a hope in hell in fucking with your shit.

at this point, it will be easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. you don't have time for this.

fuck them

Energy · 06-09-2013, 03:47 PM

Somewhat similar case to yours that actually went to court.

Quote:

Als v. Strata Corp. NW 1067 2002 BCSC 134

This was a petition by Als for an order granting an exemption from a bylaw. Als owned a unit in a condominium which he sought to rent out as he had been relocated by his employer. The bylaws of the condominium corporation contained a prohibition against the rental of units. On two occasions Als had sought an exemption from the bylaw on the basis that it caused him hardship. Als alleged hardship due to a substantial decrease in the sale value since his purchase of the unit. He also alleged hardship due to the potential prohibitive cost of property management during his absence and the fact that he was unable to obtain insurance because the unit was unoccupied. The only financial information provided by Als was that his monthly expenses had increased because he was maintaining two residences. In disallowing Als' two applications and in opposition to the present petition, the corporation argued that the information provided by Als was insufficient to establish that his inability to rent the unit was a hardship such that its refusal to grant an exemption was not unreasonably withheld.

HELD: Petition dismissed. Duplication of expenses by itself was not a factor unless it could be shown that the duplication had produced hardship because it could not be avoided or afforded. There was no proof that insurance coverage problems or cancellation of insurance had occurred and there was no indication of the cost of hiring a property manager. Without the ability to review the question of whether there was actual financial hardship and without the information available about the other grounds of hardship alleged, the corporation was correct in concluding that Als had not shown that the bylaw caused him hardship.

Just because you have more expenses doesn't automatically mean that you are suffering from "hardship". Did you give your strata council evidence that shows that you cannot afford to pay the mortgage without renting? Simply showing them that your expenses have gone up isn't enough because you might actually be very rich even if you are both leaving your jobs but are still able to afford payments. That is why they are asking for a complete picture of your financial status.

Better to give them everything they ask for. The guy in this case didn't give some financial statements because he claimed it was "intrusive" and the strata dismissed his application for lack of evidence. He couldn't show hardship and the court agreed with the strata council.

Anyway, that's just some more background information for you. That won't matter if you can rely on s.144(4)(a)(ii). Its still better to actually talk to a real lawyer who will be able to give you a definite answer.

Gridlock · 06-09-2013, 09:07 PM

Would not recommend the set it and forget it approach here. I would definitely want this resolved.

You are in a difficult situation, and time is an issue. Lawyer up man. You can get an hour of sound legal advice for $150. I booked an hour with a lawyer regarding some probate and it was $125 for him to look over paperwork and correct it for us.

You pay a little extra for him to send a letter. You pay a little more for him to read the response.

The beauty is, when the people involved get a letter from a lawyer saying, "fuck off" you will get a quick result. They may choose to fuck you, but I suspect they won't. NO ONE wants to go to court. Right now, they think they are right. Prove them otherwise and they'll say yes to make you go away.

Stratas:

Jesus fucking tap dancing christ I hate stratas. We keep throwing the idea around of getting into one, and it just a little bit sometimes makes me want to wretch.

So, what you really want me to do to prove hardship is open up my bank accounts for you to have a little peruse, and then some asshole can go on ahead and make a decision that impacts my family, my home AND my finances.

Fuck that. If I'm going to own, I'm going to be able to rent. Now, I'm of that theory right from the start, so I'm going to be looking at a place that can be rented, whether that is in the plans or not.

Goddamnit I hate it when twits get to tell others what to do.

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 10:47 PM

I found a firm that deals with strata so I sent an email for an appointment. I'd also like legal advice at the least. I get the scenario above about the guy not being able to prove hardship but I think his case is different. He's running 2 residences which is voluntary and avoidable. Half of his arguments isn't even valid. A decrease on sale value? That doesn't affect ur monthly payments.

What is hardship? That can be negotiated. Is hardship my family makes $100 a month and our monthly bills are $80. Daycare is another $100. Which means we are now $80 short.
Or is it Same situation but get rid of your cars , insurance, gym memberships,cable bills so that $80 monthly goes down to $20. Now u can afford it.?

Strata shouldn't be able to control your life and how you live it. Our monthly expenses didn't go up. We just simply don't have enough to afford a daycare on top of our monthly expenses. Her retired parents stayed with us from Toronto for a few months to watch him but as elderlies they had to return home for personal reasons. Now what. Go to Ontario or hire a baby sitter. We can't afford both. IF we get to rent the unit now we can afford one or the other. Would that be grounds for undue hardship?
Posted via RS Mobile

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopalong

Don't rely on the strata council. Trust me, I'm one of the council members in my townhome complex. 6 out of the 8 members just dont give a fuck about anybody else's interest except their own.

Strata only has the authority to fine you, but if you have all the documentation then you can fight the fines. Plus they can't even collect the fine unless youre selling your unit. Gl

How true is this last statement that they can't collect fines until we sell? I recall seeing somewhere that strata can get legal aid to collect unpaid fines?
Posted via RS Mobile

exploration03 · 06-09-2013, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaur

rent it out, pay the fines (they wont be much in comparison to your loss if you don't-i was fined once for something...it was, like, $200), pack your shit, and leave for Ontario.

they are clearly acting irrational. stratas have a hard enough time getting rid of heroin addict operating a prostitute ring out of their unit so they don't have a hope in hell in fucking with your shit.

at this point, it will be easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. you don't have time for this.

fuck them

I agree fuck them but our fines system is a bit different. Apparently they can fine me upto $700 a week or something ridiculous like that if it continues to be rented without approval exemption.
Posted via RS Mobile

Energy · 06-09-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exploration03

I found a firm that deals with strata so I sent an email for an appointment. I'd also like legal advice at the least. I get the scenario above about the guy not being able to prove hardship but I think his case is different. He's running 2 residences which is voluntary and avoidable. Half of his arguments isn't even valid. A decrease on sale value? That doesn't affect ur monthly payments.

What is hardship? That can be negotiated. Is hardship my family makes $100 a month and our monthly bills are $80. Daycare is another $100. Which means we are now $80 short.
Or is it Same situation but get rid of your cars , insurance, gym memberships,cable bills so that $80 monthly goes down to $20. Now u can afford it.?

Strata shouldn't be able to control your life and how you live it. Our monthly expenses didn't go up. We just simply don't have enough to afford a daycare on top of our monthly expenses. Her retired parents stayed with us from Toronto for a few months to watch him but as elderlies they had to return home for personal reasons. Now what. Go to Ontario or hire a baby sitter. We can't afford both. IF we get to rent the unit now we can afford one or the other. Would that be grounds for undue hardship?
Posted via RS Mobile

Yeah, that case isn't exactly your situation but it helps you understand what goes on when dealing with s.144. There aren't a lot of cases either... maybe because it never ends up going to court?

Its hard to tell you what hardship is because every situation is different. The judge in that case did say that situations like this are very fact-specific and context driven. And that is what you're going to be paying the lawyer for... legal advice and arguments to support your position if it comes to that.

See what the lawyers at the firm you made an appointment with say. Good luck!

Gridlock · 06-10-2013, 10:09 AM

This is very cut and dry a situation that would benefit from a lawyer, so I really hope that you continue to press forward on that front.

A lot of times, in my experience which I freely admit isn't at all vast on stratas but people really need to be reminded of whats important in life. They are considering that having "this damned place packed full of tenants" is whats important in life. It's not. A sick kid is.

Yeah, they can say that you can sell, and that diminished home value isn't "hardship", but I fully disagree. If you are $40,000 down on a mortgage right now, and you have someone telling you to sell if you can't be here...that's hardship. That's a year's salary for people...which isn't so bad, you know, if you didn't have to spend a dime to live here.

This is one of those things that stratas can be really bad for. Having people up in your shit.

Really make sure everyone, when you are signing up to live in a place that the restrictions and bylaws not only work today, but work for the time that you are going to live there. Look through the minutes and see how petty the conversation gets.

Could save you.

Hell...sit on the council! Go to meetings. They are spending your money.

exploration03 · 06-10-2013, 04:38 PM

Thanks guys. I really appreciate all the comments. I needed the extra assurance and also learned a lot of new stuff on this thread. Lotta smart people here.
Posted via RS Mobile

miss_crayon · 06-11-2013, 01:52 PM

Please keep us updated!