REVscene Automotive Forum - Sochi 2014 (Political discussion)

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Any protest by athletes would not be seen on the televisions of the Russian people. Cameras would cut away or images would be blurred so they won't get the message.

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Originally Posted by wreck (Post 8296095)

Thanks to education, there comes a point where 'historical beliefs' or 'cultural differences' don't fly in this day and age - there -is- a definitive right and wrong.

Much like shark finning or gender inequality, certain ideologies are wrong despite any sort of belief or cultural boundary.
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Without explaining why, you sound even more ignorant that someone espousing the exact opposite opinion.

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Originally Posted by dinosaur (Post 8296135)

But IS it a belief system or a sign of oppression? What if the law was a mixed race couple could not show affection in public? Would it be the same thing? We are not talking about a "cultural" belief in the sense of wearing shoes inside is bad. This is discrimination, no?

I'm not one to fall victim to the mainstream media's attempted correlation between this and the 1936 game but I must admit, it isn't that far off.

And, I tend to disagree...I think it is more than just a sporting event. The IOC itself brings politics into by promoting sport as a "human right for all".
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if Richmond can get away with full on Asian signs, Russia can get away with this :p :lol

anyways, I think it is just a sporting event where countries get to boast about whos the best for bragging rights for the next 4 years. if my country (Canada) wins a few events, sure im proud for them, but if they come last place then whatever....its just a sport, better luck next time.

and to quote trancehead:

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who is one country to go and enforce their beliefs onto another.

America :p at least they try :lol

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Originally Posted by stewie (Post 8296245)

...so it doesn't really affect me, so therefore I don't really care?

I will watch the Olympics when women are banned from ski-jumping. Oh wait that was in Canada and the show went on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridlock (Post 8296260)

...so it doesn't really affect me, so therefore I don't really care?

doesn't affect me, and honestly I don't care. its just a sporting event hosted in a country.

some things bother people yet other things don't. what some find ridiculous, others find petty.

I support gay/lesbians and anything else people want to be. but I'm no hero whos going to save Russia. I believe we already established how little empathy/sympathy I have for people outside of my friends/family and how its a red flag of a trait of a psychopath...but Russia is out of my league and im no saint, therefore I keep my hands out of their business.

if people care THAT much, go buy a ticket to Russia and start a movement similar to the one that happened in Egypt. force putin out. Russia may be big, but they also have a population of 140+ mil. if you could get even close to 1 mil fired up and have them banging at putins door there wont be a thing he can do. cant kill em, cant imprison all of them, sooner or later hes going to be forced to deal with it.

my pov on all this:

the Olympics will still happen, people will be pissed, 3 months after the Olympics nobody will care unless a new story is updated in the news about the LGBT laws and it gets refreshed in their memory. every 4 years the 2014 Olympics will be brought up and people will care for another 2-4 weeks, they forget and then life goes on.

to me, this seems a lot like that kony 2012 shit, after a month or 2....nobody cared.

Bullying, Kony, Gun Control, Gay's

If you get your panties in a bunch over Somthing how about ya remember it for more than a week
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lol, russia has a long history of murdering dissidents, journalists and generally being an autocratic and oligarchic orwellian state

...and this is the issue people choose to boycott the olympics over?

ok.

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Originally Posted by RRxtar (Post 8295989)

Who are we to sit here and tell another country their culture is wrong and they are wrong in their beliefs and policies.

Over half of the world believes homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. Perhaps the rest of the world should boycot any Western-cultured Olympics?

This very forum constantly stands up and states new immigrants should conform to our way of life, and meld into our culture, and not disrespect our country by displaying the 'wrong' ways of their culture. How can the same people turn around and say another country should change their beliefs to accommodate us?

Although I somewhat agree, I don't believe this is a case of "imposing our belief on others"

There is an ongoing movement for gay rights in Russia internally, but their government has squashed any chance rights for them. Instead, this is a group seeking international support for their cause and not intrusion on another nation's policies. The current Russian policies, like many other nations does not necessarily represent the will of all its citizens.

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Originally Posted by Sid Vicious (Post 8296314)

Precisely.

I intend on boycotting the olympics, but not specifically because of recent campaigns. Russia's an authoritarian state with a horrible human rights record. I like this video.

Newsflash. Whether or not you "boycott" the Olympics has no effect. Unless you're a participating athlete.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo (Post 8296333)

Newsflash. Whether or not you "boycott" the Olympics has no effect. Unless you're a participating athlete.
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An effect isn't necessarily the point.

well if you all care so much about it, then do something about it.

sitting here talking on a forum doesn't help them, at most it bring more awareness to those that don't know...and even then...that still does nothing to help them.

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Originally Posted by Hondaracer (Post 8296185)

Like a tweet I just read, "asking a Canadian athlete to boycott the Olympics is like going to Harvard for 4 years and passing on the degree"

No point to take away people's life long goals for another countries views.
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^^ This

Competing at the Olympics is what every elite athlete lives for. They dedicate their lives, blood, sweat, and injuries shooting for that goal. And since the chance only comes once every 4 years, ideally every athlete only has 1 or 2 good chances at most to compete at his absolute life long best form. To take that away or give that up in the form of boycotting the games is no different thank destroying the life-long goal of the athlete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stewie (Post 8296283)

if people care THAT much, go buy a ticket to Russia and start a movement similar to the one that happened in Egypt. force putin out. Russia may be big, but they also have a population of 140+ mil. if you could get even close to 1 mil fired up and have them banging at putins door there wont be a thing he can do. cant kill em, cant imprison all of them, sooner or later hes going to be forced to deal with it.

Collectively, people have far greater strengths than any government or regime can put together. However, to topple any government, losses (in the forms of imprisonment, physical harm, death, etc.) are almost always inevitable. And herein lies the problem -- you can't force people to sacrifice themselves.

Since the latest re-election, Putin's popularity among the general Russian public has really taken a nosedive. A sizable (or maybe even significant?) portion of the Russian public is extremely unhappy with his leadership. Mass protests and demonstrations have taken place in the past, and more than a few have stepped up to openly challenge him one way or another. But all the efforts so far has been dissolved or squashed, and some in more deadly ways (or at times, painfully deadly) than others.

I haven't been following up on the latest development on the Sochi Olympics, but earlier reports have pointed to major problems with venue construction, costs overruns, corruption, etc. There were serious concerns that things cannot be done on time, and that the event is gonna turn into a gong show. I wonder how things are coming along on that front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stewie (Post 8296353)

Discussion provokes thought, and thought provokes action. Revolutions began with a single conversation. Not saying every discussion does/needs to do that, but every action starts with a thought.

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Originally Posted by westopher (Post 8296384)

Discussion provokes thought, and thought provokes action. Revolutions began with a single conversation. Not saying every discussion does/needs to do that, but every action starts with a thought.

THANK YOU!

I don't think most really read my original or second post...or, did not understand it. The point of this thread was not in any way to convince people to boycott the Olympics or bash Russia, it was simply to provoke thoughts and a discussion. Analyzing the much discussed correlation between the Berlin games and these games. Understanding that maybe the Olympic game are NOT just about sports. What are some possible ramifications of ignoring an issue such as this? Are gay rights a human rights issue or a topic that we should turn away from because of "beliefs". Does the IOC have a sense of responsibility to protect athletes from human rights issues?

I think, unfortunately, most missed this point. This is a much deeper issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaur (Post 8296399)

if athletes drop out, they'll probably end up giving them some made up medal for bravery or something...something saying they were there but they stood up to the country and refused to play for the rights of others.

Russia is just going to embarrass itself, they're digging a hole that they wont be able to get out of, and until they realize that they cant get out, they're gonna keep digging. they're going to waste millions of dollars in buildings etc that tourists wont even go to. they'll make little to no profit, and then maybe they'll see that they made a wrong decision. but until then...we sit and wait and watch

Open letter that Stephen Fry wrote to the British PM.

Quote:

Dear Prime Minister, M Rogge, Lord Coe and Members of the International Olympic Committee,

I write in the earnest hope that all those with a love of sport and the Olympic spirit will consider the stain on the Five Rings that occurred when the 1936 Berlin Olympics proceeded under the exultant aegis of a tyrant who had passed into law, three years earlier, an act which singled out for special persecution a minority whose only crime was the accident of their birth. In his case he banned Jews from academic tenure or public office, he made sure that the police turned a blind eye to any beatings, thefts or humiliations afflicted on them, he burned and banned books written by them. He claimed they “polluted” the purity and tradition of what it was to be German, that they were a threat to the state, to the children and the future of the Reich. He blamed them simultaneously for the mutually exclusive crimes of Communism and for the controlling of international capital and banks. He blamed them for ruining the culture with their liberalism and difference. The Olympic movement at that time paid precisely no attention to this evil and proceeded with the notorious Berlin Olympiad, which provided a stage for a gleeful Führer and only increased his status at home and abroad. It gave him confidence. All historians are agreed on that. What he did with that confidence we all know.

Putin is eerily repeating this insane crime, only this time against LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.

An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillyhammer, anywhere you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilised world.

He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He cannot be allowed to get away with it. I know whereof I speak. I have visited Russia, stood up to the political deputy who introduced the first of these laws, in his city of St Petersburg. I looked into the face of the man and, on camera, tried to reason with him, counter him, make him understand what he was doing. All I saw reflected back at me was what Hannah Arendt called, so memorably, “the banality of evil.” A stupid man, but like so many tyrants, one with an instinct of how to exploit a disaffected people by finding scapegoats. Putin may not be quite as oafish and stupid as Deputy Milanov but his instincts are the same. He may claim that the “values” of Russia are not the “values” of the West, but this is absolutely in opposition to Peter the Great’s philosophy, and against the hopes of millions of Russians, those not in the grip of that toxic mix of shaven headed thuggery and bigoted religion, those who are agonised by the rolling back of democracy and the formation of a new autocracy in the motherland that has suffered so much (and whose music, literature and drama, incidentally I love so passionately).

I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to Hitler’s anti-Semitism. Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian “correctively” raped, gay men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew at seeing history repeat itself.

“All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing,” so wrote Edmund Burke. Are you, the men and women of the IOC going to be those “good” who allow evil to triumph?

The Summer Olympics of 2012 were one of the most glorious moments of my life and the life of my country. For there to be a Russian Winter Olympics would stain the movement forever and wipe away any of that glory. The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.

I am begging you to resist the pressures of pragmatism, of money, of the oily cowardice of diplomats and to stand up resolutely and proudly for humanity the world over, as your movement is pledged to do. Wave your Olympic flag with pride as we gay men and women wave our Rainbow flag with pride. Be brave enough to live up to the oaths and protocols of your movement, which I remind you of verbatim below.

Rule 4 Cooperate with the competent public or private organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the service of humanity and thereby to promote peace

Rule 6: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement

Rule 15 Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education

I especially appeal to you, Prime Minister, a man for whom I have the utmost respect. As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined, passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT rights and helped pushed gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on that instinct now.

Yours in desperate hope for humanity
Stephen Fry

"Rule 4 Cooperate with the competent public or private organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the service of humanity and thereby to promote peace

Rule 6: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement

Rule 15 Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education"

This is what I mean when I say the Olympics is more than just a sporting event. Its not just a hockey game played in some random country every 4 years.

There is a reason that this is the first time Russia has had the games...there is a reason that there is a better likelihood that the moon will produce milk over North Korea getting the games.

this is a good point

Quote:

phatstjohn 12 points 1 hour ago
So why exactly do people want to move the Olympics?
Russia is its own country, and like it or not, they've decided to ban homosexuality. Do I agree with it? No. But that doesn't mean it's justified to take away their hosting of the Olympics.
The Olympics were hosted in China in what, 2008? They have MUCH more human rights violations than just banning homosexuals.

but yea fuck Putin

they still had it in germany during world war 2 for god's sakes...if you really believe the olympics are about unity and shit, you're lying to yourself.

engage ulic mode--
the olympics are for entertaining the rich, and at best, getting an endorsement deal. i'm sure some athletes will boycott, like they did in the hitler olympics, but that's about it. china, russia, usa and the other big players will still mostly show up to measure their respective penises via sport bragging rights (inbe4chinasmallpenispenisjoke)

disengage ulic mode--

yes bottom line is, the IOC is a corporation. out to make money. out to make a profit

Quote:

Originally Posted by drunkrussian (Post 8296747)

they still had it in germany during world war 2 for god's sakes...

Umm, no.

Berlin was 1936.

Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

It did not become a "world" was until 1941 when the USA became involved. Until that point, it was considered a European war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gridlock (Post 8296260)

...so it doesn't really affect me, so therefore I don't really care?

I explain this to people like this: I only have so much money, time and care to distribute and some things gets left off the list.

There are simply too many causes out there today for me to care about every single one. Cancer, for example...I donate towards cancer research every year. I have a family member battling cancer right now and I'd do what I can to help out. If someone wants to give me money to shave my head, I'd ask where the clippers are.

And then there's the long list of causes that don't affect me, my family or my friends in any way so...honestly, I can't be bothered to give money or time. I only have limited quantities of both and so I will leave the other causes to people that care about those ones.

That may sound callous but whipping out a checkbook for everyone with a sob story just seems financially irresponsible.

I know that charity isn't quite the same as this current situation but I think it's silly to assume everyone HAS to care about everything. There just isn't enough time in the day.

That being said, I side with the homos on this one. My view of gay people has changed dramatically in the last decade as I've made more gay friends (and had friends I've known for years come out) and they are fucking awesome people. It seems wrong to criminalize something people can't control. It's as wrong as saying it's against the law to be black or tall or blonde.

I'm cool with a lot of cultural differences. I've probably been more places than the majority of folks around here and understand that not everyone operates the same way but I think the line needs to be drawn when culture oppresses an entire group of people for reasons beyond their control. I mean, is it okay that women don't have much access to education in some Middle Eastern countries? Is it okay that China is running low on girls because some of them are aborted by parents that want a boy? Was it cool for Hitler to gas Jews simply for being Jews?

Culture is not an excuse for stupid. C'mon, I'm not saying RS is the smartest demographic around but even all of you should be able to see that making gayness a crime is not right. A cultural debate is like discussing the differences in tipping in North America and Asia or whether or not bull fighting is okay. This is a basic issue of human rights.

And I never got why people give a shit when other people are gay. I think Louis CK said it best...

If people want to bring attention, then they should do it where it hurts - sponsors and advertisements...

Tweet about not buying products from sponsors of the Russian hosted olympics, see if that gains traction.